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I've seen this come up in our games a few times. Characters were able to use spells and/or abilities such as detect magic or detect evil to locate invisible creatures. Not so accurately that we could attack without penalty but we WERE able to at least figure out the general area (the square) the invisible creature was in and then at least try to attack with a 50% miss chance.
While from a character point of view, it was great, I can't help but think that a 0 level or even 1st level spell should not be able to overcome a higher level spell like that, or at least, not so easily.
Is there any kind of official rule about this?
Might even be worth clicking the FAQ tag ...
Thanks!
Here is the most fundamental RAW for invisibility:
"Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision."
So if they are using an ability that makes the invisible "detectable by vision" then no, it won't work.
Keep in mind it takes 3 rounds of concentration to pinpoint the aura. If the invisible creature keeps moving, he's going to be hard to find. Also, if the caster stops concentrating to attack or do anything else, the 3 rounds starts over again; if he's attacked, there's a chance to break his concentration as well.
Radar the wizard and Bashy the fighter are trying to find Obfusicus the mage.
Radar casts detect magic. He knows whether Obfusicus is in a 60 foot cone in front of him. He can tell bashy "he's over here" or "he's not over here"
Assuming Obfusicus stays there, on round 2 Radar knows 2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.... not really helpfull. This is Radar's Standard Action for the round.
And of Obfusicus is still there on round 3, Radar knows what square he's standing in. Telling bashy that in non game terms shouldn't be that hard.
So it takes 3 rounds and 3 actions to narrow down a square IF the other wizard isn't smart enough to move out of the way. It's hardly an automatic counter.
The lower level spell not overcomming a higher level one isn't even a rule, its just something piazo likes as a guideline. There are exceptions, Farie fire, glitterdust and see invisibility will all shut down greater invisibility for example.
I would like to note that the above house rule would make True Vision useless.Here is the most fundamental RAW for invisibility:
"Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision."
So if they are using an ability that makes the invisible "detectable by vision" then no, it won't work.
Sigh, is it actually necessary to add "unless another spell or ability specifically says it allows you to see invisible?"
I mean really? Seriously?
And how is quoting RAW a "house rule?"
Here is the relevant text of "Detect Evil":
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information
revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in
the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is
outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its
exact location.
So, since "invisibility" makes you undetectable by sight, then round 1 and round 2 will "detect evil".
The question is how to read round 3. I would argue that since you are invisible you are not in "line of sight" but that's debatable. I would rule that you can get direction but not exact location, meaning not the square the invisible creature is in.
But I could see a different ruling.
Detect Magic has nearly identical text.
It says line of sight, not vision of sight.
Oddly enough, if you were temporarily blinded by a sunlight spell, you might be able aim a lightning bolt by detect evil, but you might hit friendlies in the way. For me, it doesn't say exact square.
Sometimes, the entire area detects as evil.
It says line of sight, not vision of sight.
Oddly enough, if you were temporarily blinded by a sunlight spell, you might be able aim a lightning bolt by detect evil, but you might hit friendlies in the way. For me, it doesn't say exact square.
Sometimes, the entire area detects as evil.
This is reasonable.
I guess to me it's not clear in either the detect evil or detect magic description that your detection is "by sight". "Detect evil" simply says "you sense" and "Detect Magic" says "you detect."
It's not plain that you "see" the aura visibly. I guess if you were blinded temporarily you could argue that you could still "sense" evil or magic.
I would still rule that you only get direction and general area of invisible creatures though. There are plenty of other ways to make them visible, many of them low level spells or items.
But then again... three rounds to locate... and presumably they are moving... Hmm... I wonder how useful it would be even with the most generous ruling.
The square can be located if the invisible being does not move, but they are still invisible, which means 50% miss chance, and can not be target by certain spells. They might just run up and stab you in the face while you are trying to find them.
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The square can be located if the invisible being does not move, but they are still invisible, which means 50% miss chance, and can not be target by certain spells.
This is pretty much how we handled it.
However, I think we more or less missed the fact that it would take 3 rounds to really pinpoint the square (assuming the invisible creature doesn't move of course) AND that the spells are cones (and not area spells), so the caster would need to aim the cone in one direction for those three rounds - he could not just scan the entire room all at once.
The way we have always dont it is it takes 3 rounds to pin point a square even if the are moving as long as they stay in line of sight. After round 3 , as long as they maintain concentration , they can get the round 3 effect if they move the cone.
Edit - It has never made since to me to lose the location of an evil thing if they move 3 inchs but are still infront of you. We use it more like a sonar. At the beginning of your turn you ping the evil thing in your cone.
The square can be located if the invisible being does not move, but they are still invisible, which means 50% miss chance, and can not be target by certain spells.This is pretty much how we handled it.
However, I think we more or less missed the fact that it would take 3 rounds to really pinpoint the square (assuming the invisible creature doesn't move of course) AND that the spells are cones (and not area spells), so the caster would need to aim the cone in one direction for those three rounds - he could not just scan the entire room all at once.
Yeah that is what I meant, but I did not state it.
The way we have always dont it is it takes 3 rounds to pin point a square even if the are moving as long as they stay in line of sight. After round 3 , as long as they maintain concentration , they can get the round 3 effect if they move the cone.
Edit - It has never made since to me to lose the location of an evil thing with they move 3 inchs but are still infront of you.
This also seems reasonable. Three rounds in combat is a long time to be sensing an aura. I actually sorta like the role playing aspect of this.
It would take you 3 rounds to find your way through a room with invisable benches without tripping on them.
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How we've always done it...
1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.
1st round: Yep, you detect the presence of magic auras.
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.
2nd round: You know there is one aura but you don't know where.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura.
3rd round: You know the strength of the aura and the square that each aura is in within the area of effect.
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In pure mechanical terms there certainly isn't much reason that those spells couldn't (very inefficiently) be used to discover at least that there is an aura of some type where there doesn't appear to be anyone standing.
From a make things more interesting stand point I roll a will-save for the person using the lower level detection spells and count it as interacting with an illusion. If they fail their save then invisibility trumps their active aura sweeping. The spell works normally but their brain fails to pick up on the invisible person's aura.
How we've always done it...
1st Round: Presence or absence of magical auras.1st round: Yep, you detect the presence of magic auras.
2nd Round: Number of different magical auras and the power of the most potent aura.2nd round: You know there is one aura but you don't know where.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura.3rd round: You know the strength of the aura and the square that each aura is in within the area of effect.
+1 Agree
As long as the invisible person is moving, location is never pinned down.
As long as the invisible person is moving out of the cone every round, number 2 or 3 do not take place.
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Detect magic can locate the square of an invisible person, as long as they remain in one spot for 3 rounds.
Even then the target is still invisible, and gets Attack Roll Modifiers Table 8-5, and Armor class modifier Table 8-6 as listed on page 195.
You may know the square he is in, but you still can not see him, do not know what action he is about to take, nor defend again his attacks which you can not see coming.
At best, it lets you shoot blind into an empty square, lob a bomb in said square, or drop an Area of effect spell into square.
Note that detect magic does not locate the creature by sight. It locates the spell, namely invisibility, by sight. The spell does not protect itself; it protects the creature it's cast on.
Arcane sight pinpoints the "location" in 1 round with out concentration unless I am forgetting something. Not sure if this adds to much to the conversation but It's good to note.
~will
What if you were to Heighten Detect Magic to 2nd level?
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Both detect magic and detect evil would take three rounds to pinpoint so the enemy caster can just cast spells like, mask dweomer, Magic Aura, Nondetection, ect. all of these would make what the pc's were trying pointless and the enemy could continue say summoning of buffing allies for the duration of the invis effect.
Also the enemy would have to move out of the 60ft cone in order to make the "Detector" restart the tree round process. Simply moving around in the cone wouldn't help.
Something you might be forgetting about detect magic. Lingering Magic. An invisible person is going to leave "ghosts" behind of the magic. (For a 1 - 3 lvl spell its only 1d6 rounds). But if the mage moves at all your going to pick up the "aura" all over the place. As well as all the magic of your buddies, any continuous spells they happen to have on.
Trying to find a moving invisible person with it, next to impossible. Finding invisible object, yeah, that would work.
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The square can be located if the invisible being does not move, but they are still invisible, which means 50% miss chance, and can not be target by certain spells.This is pretty much how we handled it.
However, I think we more or less missed the fact that it would take 3 rounds to really pinpoint the square (assuming the invisible creature doesn't move of course) AND that the spells are cones (and not area spells), so the caster would need to aim the cone in one direction for those three rounds - he could not just scan the entire room all at once.
We as well; in fact, this came up during last session when the PCs were fighting a single will'o'wisp. Its ability to turn invisible as a move action (and then shift 5 ft.) proved to be almost too much for a group of 7th level PCs to handle. So when the paladin decided to use Detect Evil, I felt sorry for them and let him "attune" to the wisp's aura (i.e. he could keep detecting it even when it moved). Otherwise it would have been a TPK sooner or later, and I know these guys wouldn't have retreated (and they did not have any spells to counter invisibility). In the end it didn't help much, because the paladin wanted a go at it, but missing. The most effective tactic proved to be readying; everyone would just ready an attack in case the wisp appeared within reach. The combat ended with most of the PCs in low HPs and the wisp making a strategic withdrawal before it was killed.
But, I agree with the original poster; PCs are now constantly using DM or DE, and my players are routinely asking if pretty much every item they find -- whether it's a broken spearhead, a dirty napkin or a silver coin -- is magical. At first it was funny, now it's grating on my nerves. I've started describing every aura (beginning on spells and items on them) within range, and I've included a lot more magical auras (some of them encompassing several rooms or even the whole complex) as "red herrings" (or even to hide magic traps) in my adventures. In addition, I've told the players that continous use of detection spells and abilities will result in characters getting "false alarms".
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Oddly enough, Line of Sight isn't explicitly defined in the Core Rulebook. On the SRD, though, it's defined as, "A line of sight is the same as a Line of Effect but with the additional restriction that that it is blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight (such as Concealment)."
Given that Concealment blocks LOS, being Invisible would also block LOS, meaning things like Detect Magic or Detect [Alignment] would never be able to lock it down to a square, only a straight-line path from the caster, assuming the target was in the Cone of Effect on Round 3 of the spell. Inefficient, but it would "defeat" Invisibility in a way.
As a note, there's nothing in the spell descriptions that require the target to be within the Cone for the entire build-up. The target doesn't even have to start in the Cone of Effect, just be there on Round 3+.
Oddly enough, Line of Sight isn't explicitly defined in the Core Rulebook. On the SRD, though, it's defined as, "A line of sight is the same as a Line of Effect but with the additional restriction that that it is blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight (such as Concealment)."
Given that Concealment blocks LOS, being Invisible would also block LOS, meaning things like Detect Magic or Detect [Alignment] would never be able to lock it down to a square, only a straight-line path from the caster, assuming the target was in the Cone of Effect on Round 3 of the spell. Inefficient, but it would "defeat" Invisibility in a way.
As a note, there's nothing in the spell descriptions that require the target to be within the Cone for the entire build-up. The target doesn't even have to start in the Cone of Effect, just be there on Round 3+.
Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Obviously Line of Effect is not an issue, and you when you state a rule it helps to quote it. This is because some people make up or misremember rules. I have misremembered more than my share.
You do have to study the aura for a consecutive rounds
You can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.
If you are of good alignment, and the strongest evil aura's power is overwhelming (see below), and the HD or level of the aura's source is at least twice your character level, you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends.
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
If they only show up on round 3 obviously you did not study them for 3 rounds.
id rule yes, but takes the 3 rounds...hopefully by that time i can find my invisible rogue ally who is bleeding out
and since, in a rash of madness, they made invisbility available at 1st level in APG, id say 3 round of concentration on a 0 level spell, should 'overcome' a 1st level spell
just as say three rounds of being pounded by the 2nd level scorching ray, should overcome the 3rd level spell protect from energy its not a perfect reference, but there you go
Thread rez!
The argument we had this week was over the paladin's ability. Evil rogue goes invisible.
So paladin activates his "detect evil" as a spell like ability (standard action) and pings evil in the area.
As a move action he can now jump to the third level of detect evil, which involves a specific object, but if he has nothing to target can he do this? The paladin's version of detect evil allows him to "skip" the second round, but wouldn't that keep him from ever seeing someone evil and invisible?
Paladin can't target, because the paladin cannot see the person. He would have to use the three round method described above.
Just a note as well, that any capable of casting invisibility is more than capable of casting 'magic aura'. So, every day, cast 'Magic Aura' on 3-4 pebbles (wands work great for this) to make them have an illusion aura. Then after you go invisible, if you see the wizard casting detects, drop a pebble in his cone and move out of his line of sight.