No, that's plainly wrong. Combat begins when the party begins combat. If he is two hundred feets away, tough luck, his combat begins on the same round.
First off, if combat starts with the surprise round, stealth stops working when the surprise round begins. Personally, I think combat starts for a character the first time he interacts with someone else. I mean, if he's two hundred feet away when the rest of the party has the surprise round and he arrives late, combat begins when he takes an action (or someone there interacts with him).
Do you have any rules reference to this? And what about NPC's? Does all NPC's in the world enter combat because one character does?
Secondly, unaware =/= flatfooted. If you're invisible and fighting a deaf enemy without scent or anything like that, your opponent is unaware of you but still not flat-footed. Flat-footed is the condition of not being able to defend yourself properly due to not having acted in combat - it has nothing to do with awareness, really. Yes, the rogue would get sneak attack damage - but stealth has nothing to do with it, and the surprise round has everything to do with it.Again, I quote from the Core Rulebook. Page 178.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Yes, but that's only in that specific circumstance. Unaware combatants in the surprise round are flat-footed, not anytime they aren't aware - that's why it's stated "at the start of battle". Note also that they aren't flat-footed because they're unaware, but
because they have not acted yet
Still, stealth does not work when you attack.
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking
You only get sneak attack bonus WHEN attacking, so whenever you might get sneak attack bonus, you cannot use stealth, therefore, stealth + sneak attack = impossible by RAW.
Do you have any rules reference to this? And what about NPC's? Does all NPC's in the world enter combat because one character does?
For the purposes of that combat, yes. Outside for everybody else who is not involved, time continues as normal, but for the players and associated NPC's who are aware, they enter into the combat round model.
Yes, but that's only in that specific circumstance. Unaware combatants in the surprise round are flat-footed, not anytime they aren't aware - that's why it's stated "at the start of battle". Note also that they aren't flat-footed because they're unaware, butbecause they have not acted yet
That's not what the wording says. The are unaware, thus flat-footed. Your word twisting can't change what's plainly written down in that rule. And combat starts with a surprise round always that one party is not aware of the other.
Still, stealth does not work when you attack.You only get sneak attack bonus WHEN attacking,...
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking
And the person who is unaware when combat begins, because you were in stealth, is flat-footed, thus sneak attack applies.
Actually, yes, you get your sneak damage on your first attack, if the opponent is unaware of you ( due to stealth ). Look above where I cited the core rulebook on how a surprise round works.
I said after battle has started ;) no surprise round here
That's not what the wording says. The are unaware, thus flat-footed. Your word twisting can't change what's plainly written down in that rule. And combat starts with a surprise round always that one party is not aware of the other.
I'm not word twisting. Read again:
Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet
And the person who is unaware when combat begins, because you were in stealth, is flat-footed, thus sneak attack applies.
Well, yes, as long as he hasn't acted. Say that you are a stealthed rogue and a fighter, up against a bugbear. If the bugbear spots the fighter but not the rogue, and the rogue spots the bugbear but the fighter doesn't, both the bugbear and the rogue gets to act during the surprise round. If the bugbear wins initiative so he gets to act before the rogue can attack him, it doesn't matter that he hasn't seen the rogue. He won't get sneak attacked due to stealth anyway.
Stealth CAN be used to create a situation where you can sneak attack (an ambush where you get to attack before the opponent acts). However, stealth in itself never allows sneak attack bonuses; you stop stealthing before you get to the damage part.
I said after battle has started ;) no surprise round here
When exactly was I talking to you?
Well, yes, as long as he hasn't acted. Say that you are a stealthed rogue and a fighter, up against a bugbear. If the bugbear spots the fighter but not the rogue, and the rogue spots the bugbear but the fighter doesn't, both the bugbear and the rogue gets to act during the surprise round. If the bugbear wins initiative so he gets to act before the rogue can attack him, it doesn't matter that he hasn't seen the rogue. He won't get sneak attacked due to stealth anyway.
Stealth CAN be used to create a situation where you can sneak attack (an ambush where you get to attack before the opponent acts). However, stealth in itself never allows sneak attack bonuses; you stop stealthing before you get to the damage part.
Oh, now we are involving more than just a one-on-one encounter? That was not what we were discussing. If you got to change the whole encounter to be right, go ahead. I think we are done here.
When exactly was I talking to you?
umm on the first page when you quoted me calling me wrong?
Oh, now we are involving more than just a one-on-one encounter? That was not what we were discussing. If you got to change the whole encounter to be right, go ahead. I think we are done here.
And the OP was talking about a two on one encounter, you may want to read the thread
So, bottom line we have learned this thread is that Rogues suck by their very mechanics and that no one should make one. If you really need a trapfinder, get a cohort pocket Rogue and only take him out for that purpose.
Yes?
Oh, now we are involving more than just a one-on-one encounter? That was not what we were discussing. If you got to change the whole encounter to be right, go ahead. I think we are done here.
It doesn't really matter. Even if it's just one-on-one, but the rogue lacks the ability to attack during the surprise round (for example, through being out of range) and the bugbear gets to act after that, him being unaware doesn't change that he's acted and is no longer flat-footed.
See the quote above.
1. Creatures that haven't acted (and ONLY creatures that haven't acted) are flat-footed.
2. During the surprise round, unaware creatures don't get to act.
3. Therefore, during the surprise round, unaware creatures are flat-footed.
4. On any other round, awareness doesn't matter a bit; you're not flat-footed anyway. You can still be sneak attacked, but not related to the stealth skill.
So, bottom line we have learned this thread is that Rogues suck by their very mechanics and that no one should make one. If you really need a trapfinder, get a cohort pocket Rogue and only take him out for that purpose.
Yes?
Of course not. While it's true that rogues are considered among the weaker classes, they're not THAT far behind (and they're still ahead of the monk, and on par with the barbarian IMO). It's just that stealth isn't a combat mechanic; in combat, you use other methods to get sneak attack. Flanking in melee is the easiest and most obvious one, closely followed by invisibility from a friendly mage or a magic item (remember, UMD is a class skill!) and the feat Gang Up, which means you can flank from a distance, using a bow or the like to deliver sneak attack damage.
You still won't reach the damage potentials of a fighter or the like, but you'll do your part.
So, bottom line we have learned this thread is that Rogues suck by their very mechanics and that no one should make one. If you really need a trapfinder, get a cohort pocket Rogue and only take him out for that purpose.
Yes?
You must be new-ish to the boards, look it up, essentially yes. Rogue is a selfish class that can't do much on their own.
In Combat:
rogue: "Hey fighter? mind flanking with me so I can contribute to your damage?"
Fighter: "yeah no problem"
Near NPC:
Rogue: "hey sorceror, let me help you talk to this guy, you may be more personable but I'm not to bad myself"
Sorceror: "sure, the more silver tongues the better"
Magical trap:
Ranger: "hey rogue I got some skill with disabling, mind if I help out?"
Rogue: ".... haha hell no, you don't have trap finding, just stand back and let meh do my thang"
(seriously though, run a search, stealth is wonky and sneak attack is difficult without a friend)
and the feat Gang Up, which means you can flank from a distance, using a bow or the like to deliver sneak attack damage.
Oh, hey, something actually useful came from this thread. That feat is going to be a good one for the Rogue in the campaign I am playing in. She wants to stay ranged and we got two meatshields who can do the flanking for her. ^^
Oh, hey, something actually useful came from this thread. That feat is going to be a good one for the Rogue in the campaign I am playing in. She wants to stay ranged and we got two meatshields who can do the flanking for her. ^^and the feat Gang Up, which means you can flank from a distance, using a bow or the like to deliver sneak attack damage.
Actually, the FAQ says that gangup only works for melee, ;_;
Actually, the FAQ says that gangup only works for melee, ;_;Oh, hey, something actually useful came from this thread. That feat is going to be a good one for the Rogue in the campaign I am playing in. She wants to stay ranged and we got two meatshields who can do the flanking for her. ^^and the feat Gang Up, which means you can flank from a distance, using a bow or the like to deliver sneak attack damage.
I restate my previous statement.
Actually, the FAQ says that gangup only works for melee, ;_;
Damn, that's stupid. HOUSERULE POWAH ACTIVATE!
That still leaves invisibility, darkness, grease and other magical options though, as well as melee flanking. Note that the 1st level spell grease means ANYONE moving by land through the area is considered flat-footed (truly flat-footed, not just no-dex-to-ac).
Actually, the FAQ says that gangup only works for melee, ;_;Oh, hey, something actually useful came from this thread. That feat is going to be a good one for the Rogue in the campaign I am playing in. She wants to stay ranged and we got two meatshields who can do the flanking for her. ^^and the feat Gang Up, which means you can flank from a distance, using a bow or the like to deliver sneak attack damage.
Well, bloody hell.
Good tip on the Grease part, though. I'll have to see if my Sorcerer can take that one, although that might make the melees unhappy...
Well, bloody hell.
Good tip on the Grease part, though. I'll have to see if my Sorcerer can take that one, although that might make the melees unhappy...
If you're not in PFS, this is a perfect time to invoke rule 0.
If you're up against melee opponents, grease is king. Even your melee characters will probably be decent with ranged weapons (if they're fighters, paladins or the like) while melee opponents are often lacking in ranged options. Just have your meleers stand behind the greased area and shoot. It only works in confined spaces, though, unless you can put it directly below the enemy (and due to range, that usually means they're already within melee range).
On that topic, Grease seems like a good spell to augment with Reach.
So, bottom line we have learned this thread is that Rogues suck by their very mechanics and that no one should make one. If you really need a trapfinder, get a cohort pocket Rogue and only take him out for that purpose.
Yes?
Hey.
We have skills.
Also you don't want to use a cohort on that kind of thing. By the time you're level 13 you should have a level 5 follower if your Cha is high enough. Have _that_ guy be your rogue.
Then the cohort can be like, a bard or something.
Much more useful.
Hey.We have skills.
Also you don't want to use a cohort on that kind of thing. By the time you're level 13 you should have a level 5 follower if your Cha is high enough. Have _that_ guy be your rogue.
Then the cohort can be like, a bard or something.
Much more useful.
I bow before your greater wisdom.