If you have one level in monk before you gain your ki pool from ninja levels, can you still key the ki pool off Wisdom, even though you haven't gained a ki pool from your monk levels yet? Does your single monk level count as a ninja level for determining your ki pool size?
Nope. The pools should be counted separately just like a sorcerer's and wizard's spells would.
There is nothing stating a ninja counts as a monk, and that was probably done on purpose to prevent class dipping.
A Monk doesn't get a Ki pool until level four. However, if you have four levels in monk, whether gained before or after you take a level in Ninja, the fallowing paragraph applies.
The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours
of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be
consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class
that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the
levels of that class to determine the total number of ki
points in the combined pool, but only one ability score
modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score
to use is made when the second class ability is gained,
and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki
points from this pool to power the abilities of every class
she possesses that grants a ki pool.
Failed my perception check. I am glad that it is four levels instead of a one level dip though.
Also, dipping two levels into Monk is much better than just one.
I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say YES to the OP.
If the ninja possesses levels in another class
that grants points to a ki pool,
Note that it doesn't say he has to gain ki pools from another class. This differs from, for example, the description of uncanny dodge:
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
The only thing it says is that you have to possess levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool. This is ambigious, as it can refer to requireing the class to grant ki, or it can refer to requireing the levels to grant ki. When you compare it with other abilities of other classes though, it seems to refer to class, not levels.
And this isn't unpreceeded. Note that wand usage works the same way - if you take a level in a class that eventually gets the ability to cast a spell, you can use a wand with that spell even if you can't even cast spells at all (1st level ranger can use a wand of CLW).
Also, dipping two levels into Monk is much better than just one.And thematically makes a heck of a lot of sense too.
Lets not forget the +3 to all saves in addition to stunning fist, unarmed combat and evasion.
If I ever play a Ninja (and I am not against them at all - I just want them balanced to the parent class) then I'll be heading for a monestary for two levels of training.
I think this alone makes the ninja broken. the fact that this can happen and they gain flurry of blows for free, stunning fist for free, evasion for free, and improved unarmed strike for free. Along with wisdom to AC and ki pool bonuses.
while mr fourth level rogue gets evasion, two tricks, traps and 2d6 sneak attack..
How is this balanced?
because the rogue could do the same thing to get the "flurry of blows for free, stunning fist for free, and improved unarmed strike' for free.
because the rogue could do the same thing to get the "flurry of blows for free, stunning fist for free, and improved unarmed strike' for free.
but one of the arguements for the ninja is "they dont get evasion, and they are so MAD they dont have the right saves"
not to mention the boost to Ki for basically free.
Plus the ninja can go invisible and use flurry along with his shuriken ability to kick out FOUR attacks at level 4 all easily with sneak attack and have evasion, extra ki, unarmed strikes, and significantly better saves.
Rogues get, three. Ninjas get alot.
because the rogue could do the same thing to get the "flurry of blows for free, stunning fist for free, and improved unarmed strike' for free.but one of the arguements for the ninja is "they dont get evasion, and they are so MAD they dont have the right saves"
not to mention the boost to Ki for basically free.
Plus the ninja can go invisible and use flurry along with his shuriken ability to kick out FOUR attacks at level 4 all easily with sneak attack and have evasion, extra ki, unarmed strikes, and significantly better saves.
Rogues get, three. Ninjas get alot.
Your 4 attacks would also be at a -4 penalty, and only the first one would be a sneak attack; at the cost of 1 ki no less. He doesn't get extra ki, only the option to add wisdom INSTEAD of charisma to ki pool. The rogue would get significantly better saves too.
Your 4 attacks would also be at a -4 penalty, and only the first one would be a sneak attack; at the cost of 1 ki no less.
Eh? They'd all be with sneak attack.
If you are invisible and move to a location you can sneak attack from, all your attacks are sneak attacks, not just the first. The enemy can't react outside of their turn, so they remain flatfooted until their turn towards you.
Wrong, since 3.5 (3.0 in some cases) you are visible after your first attack, no sneak attack after the first shuriken. Enemies can react outside of turn, attacks of opportunity and all.
Your 4 attacks would also be at a -4 penalty, and only the first one would be a sneak attack; at the cost of 1 ki no less. He doesn't get extra ki, only the option to add wisdom INSTEAD of charisma to ki pool. The rogue would get significantly better saves too.
NO read the above on the Ki pool posted earlier. His levels stack for granted ki pool points. Not to mention the option to switch ability dependency.
They would ALL be sneak attacks. The -4 to attack (while being invisible) this is negligible. you get a +2 to your attack for being an invisible attacker and your opponent is flatfooted. Looks like 4 attacks, all at sneak with a possible bonus. Not to mention while flurrying a monk gets full BAB, so the Ninja essentially gets a bonus to BAB too.
Wrong, since 3.5 (3.0 in some cases) you are visible after your first attack, no sneak attack after the first shuriken. Enemies can react outside of turn, attacks of opportunity and all.
Um.. what?
no.
Even if your farse of an arguement WAS true, they would still be flatfooted as they were unaware of the assassin before his turn. You dont gain immediate awareness on someone else's turn.
Go read sneak attack.
A second level monk second level ninja would have a +3 bab for flurry of blows, -2 for flurry of blows, -2 for the shuriken ability. -1 net total before other bonuses. Only the first shuriken is a sneak attack. unless you are able to remain invisible for all of them.
A second level monk second level ninja would have a +3 bab for flurry of blows, -2 for flurry of blows, -2 for the shuriken ability. -1 net total before other bonuses. Only the first shuriken is a sneak attack. unless you are able to remain invisible for all of them.
all are sneak attacks. They do not become immediately capable of stopping your sneak attacks after your first attack.
net -1 huh? what about the +2 invisible attacker... then them being flatfooted... and then your Attribute bonus... and if you have masterwork ammunition (+6 gold per shuriken.. pocket change) hmmm now we are talking a +6 againsta flatfooted opponent and four attacks... sounds like great odds to me at level 4.
NOTE: not to mention Point black shot as a feat would help this greatly. And the two free feats you get as a monk can make you a very deadly threat.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
As I said, before other bonuses.
InvisibleInvisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability.
Invisibility does not make the target flat-footed, it allows you to ignore their Dex-bonus to AC. Therefore, the first attack is a sneak attack, the rest are not.
EDIT: and I read the sneak attack section twice.
As I said, before other bonuses.
Invisibility does not make the target flat-footed, it allows you to ignore their Dex-bonus to AC. Therefore, the first attack is a sneak attack, the rest are not.
InvisibleInvisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See the invisibility special ability.
so let me get this straight.
Your arguement is that you are flatfooted in a surprise round when you are surprised but when a target is invisible and you do not know he is there you retain your dex bonus to AC instantly when he becomes visible even though his shurikens have already left his hands before you have had time to act?
get a FAQ and ill believe that.
Invisibility does not make the target flat-footed, it allows you to ignore their Dex-bonus to AC. Therefore, the first attack is a sneak attack, the rest are not.
EDIT: and I read the sneak attack section twice.
Losing your dex bonus to AC = flat footed.
Sigh... we need a dev to settle this.
I agree that a dev would help clear things up.
But as for FAQ, this game is 3.5 backwards compatible and there was a 3.5 FAQ on this.This thread helps demonstrate that.
I agree that a dev would help clear things up.
But as for FAQ, this game is 3.5 backwards compatible and there was a 3.5 FAQ on this.This thread helps demonstrate that.
3.5 had a lot of problems with it.
If this is the case with invisibility I wildly over estimated the vanishing trick ability.
With that said however, if you can go invisible, and find a way to use stealth and then perform the action you would still get four sneaks.
because the rogue could do the same thing to get the "flurry of blows for free, stunning fist for free, and improved unarmed strike' for free.but one of the arguements for the ninja is "they dont get evasion, and they are so MAD they dont have the right saves"
Any class can do that, besides the ones which cannot go lawful.
not to mention the boost to Ki for basically free.
There is no ki boost. The Monk gets the ki pool at level four, before that he has no ki pool, hence the levels do not stack.
Plus the ninja can go invisible and use flurry along with his shuriken ability to kick out FOUR attacks at level 4 all easily with sneak attack and have evasion, extra ki, unarmed strikes, and significantly better saves.
Again, every class can take two levels of Monk. And a rogue can throw daggers instead of Shuriken, so I don't see what the problem would be.
And, yeah, after coming out of invisibility, you can only get one sneak attack, the subsequent attacks do not count for that.
not to mention the boost to Ki for basically free.There is no ki boost. The Monk gets the ki pool at level four, before that he has no ki pool, hence the levels do not stack.
Actually, I have to disagree. If it were written the way other powers are, I'd agree with you. However, it just says 'If he has levels in a class that grants Ki pool', not, 'if he gains ki pool from another class'. Monk grants ki pool, and he has levels in it. Ergo, they stack. A ninja 4/monk 2 would calculate ki pool as if a ninja 6. However, since he hasn't actually gained the ki pool from the monk, I'd personally say he doesn't get to choose the stat that boosts the pool, since that part of the rule says you can only choose when you gain the ability from the other class.
I think RAI was you had to be level 4 monk, however, RAW it's just have levels in monk.
Again, every class can take two levels of Monk. And a rogue can throw daggers instead of Shuriken, so I don't see what the problem would be.And, yeah, after coming out of invisibility, you can only get one sneak attack, the subsequent attacks do not count for that.
If, on the other hand, you use the invisibility to ambush in the surprise round, then all the shuriken would be sneak attacks. Not because you were invisible per se, but because you are initiating the ambush, and the ambush occurs on your initiative. Nobody can go before your initiative, since there was no combat before you initiated it.
Read the Ki pool of the ninja as it reads now, then comment. It says if you have any levels in a CLASS that grants ki pool then you stack both levels. That means that your ki pool goes up anyway because it says if the class grants a ki pool, it doesnt say you need it.
A rogue can throw daggers instead of shurikens... but the rogue wont get flurry because those aren't monk weapons, and they also wont get two extra attacks for spending ki. So one attack for mister rogue.
The only arguement against the ninja is "no evasion and Bad saves due to MAD that is why the rogue is even"
The saves all escalate to ludicrous heights in two levels and reflex saves basically become Auto-success (half damage on reflex saves is negligible). With light steps traps aren't even really a problem.
Lastly about the invisible comment, they can invisible then use stealth (which then makes all attacks sneak because they are hidden even when they stop being invisible) and then use all 4 attacks.
If, on the other hand, you use the invisibility to ambush in the surprise round, then all the shuriken would be sneak attacks. Not because you were invisible per se, but because you are initiating the ambush, and the ambush occurs on your initiative. Nobody can go before your initiative, since there was no combat before you initiated it.
Again, every class can take two levels of Monk. And a rogue can throw daggers instead of Shuriken, so I don't see what the problem would be.And, yeah, after coming out of invisibility, you can only get one sneak attack, the subsequent attacks do not count for that.
+1
+1If, on the other hand, you use the invisibility to ambush in the surprise round, then all the shuriken would be sneak attacks. Not because you were invisible per se, but because you are initiating the ambush, and the ambush occurs on your initiative. Nobody can go before your initiative, since there was no combat before you initiated it.
Again, every class can take two levels of Monk. And a rogue can throw daggers instead of Shuriken, so I don't see what the problem would be.And, yeah, after coming out of invisibility, you can only get one sneak attack, the subsequent attacks do not count for that.
I would agree with this part, but not about invisibility later in combat.
Actually, I have to disagree. If it were written the way other powers are, I'd agree with you. However, it just says 'If he has levels in a class that grants Ki pool', not, 'if he gains ki pool from another class'. Monk grants ki pool, and he has levels in it. Ergo, they stack. A ninja 4/monk 2 would calculate ki pool as if a ninja 6. However, since he hasn't actually gained the ki pool from the monk, I'd personally say he doesn't get to choose the stat that boosts the pool, since that part of the rule says you can only choose when you gain the ability from the other class.
I think RAI was you had to be level 4 monk, however, RAW it's just have levels in monk.
Okay, makes sense as RAW. I guess that needs to be clarified for the final version.
If, on the other hand, you use the invisibility to ambush in the surprise round, then all the shuriken would be sneak attacks. Not because you were invisible per se, but because you are initiating the ambush, and the ambush occurs on your initiative. Nobody can go before your initiative, since there was no combat before you initiated it.
True, but that goes just as much for the Rogue. Aaaaand, I may be wrong here, but IMO you get only one attack in an surprise round.
If you go first in initiative afterwards, though, all attacks are sneak attacks against the flat-footed target.
Lastly about the invisible comment, they can invisible then use stealth (which then makes all attacks sneak because they are hidden even when they stop being invisible) and then use all 4 attacks.
No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.
No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.
In that case rogues suck more than anyone could have possibly imagined. Doubly so for Jack B. Nimble/TWF Rogues over in the DPR Olympics.
Rogue: "So alright, I'm still stealthed and he hasn't noticed me yet, I 5 foot step and full round sneak attacks!"
DM: "Actually sorry, only your first attack does sneak attack, but do your rolls."
Rogue: "... Why am I playing this class again?"
No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.In that case rogues suck more than anyone could have possibly imagined. Doubly so for Jack B. Nimble/TWF Rogues over in the DPR Olympics.
Rogue: "So alright, I'm still stealthed and he hasn't noticed me yet, I 5 foot step and full round sneak attacks!"
DM: "Actually sorry, only your first attack does sneak attack, but do your rolls."
Rogue: "... Why am I playing this class again?"
Them's the breaks. Pathfinder is a cooperative game, it is expected that the Rogue has someone to flank or can catch the opponent without dexterity ( which is easier than one would think at the mid-to-high levels ).
And just to clear up how the action economy actually works, here's it from the core rules:
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are
aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware. Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are f lat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Them's the breaks. Pathfinder is a cooperative game, it is expected that the Rogue has someone to flank or can catch the opponent without dexterity ( which is easier than one would think at the mid-to-high levels ).
And what of people who like to do one-shots with their DM when they are the only player? The Rogues are 100% useless then?
That is pants-on-head retarded. I'm fairly certain if I sat and skimmed through every AP and adventure Paizo has written for PF I'd find some Rogue NPC char performing a multiple attack sneak attack on an unsuspecting party member.
If this is RAW then I for one am glad my DM either never read this, or flat out ignores it. If he did read it, then clearly he chose to ignore it.
And what of people who like to do one-shots with their DM when they are the only player? The Rogues are 100% useless then?
I'd say solo adventures are not the focus of Pathfinder. And Rogues would sneak by encounters, if it were. Also, there is UMD and Wands of Greater Invisibility, Improved Feint and other stuff to do.
That is pants-on-head retarded. I'm fairly certain if I sat and skimmed through every AP and adventure Paizo has written for PF I'd find some Rogue NPC char performing a multiple attack sneak attack on an unsuspecting party member.
Not that I am aware of, no.
If this is RAW then I for one am glad my DM either never read this, or flat out ignores it. If he did read it, then clearly he chose to ignore it.
Pathfinder is an abstract game system ( like that guys with 200 HP perform as good at 200 as at 1 HP. ). Realistically, getting stabbed multiple times will normally result in you being aware that you are getting attacked after the first stab.
... 'If he has levels in a class that grants Ki pool' ...Your missing a couple words.
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki poolAs levels one, two and three of the monk do not "grant points to a ki pool" the levels do not stack until the fourth level is acquired. However, using the same language as animal companions and evasion would be more consistent.
Monk does grant points to a ki pool. That's why I said the wording was off from RAI.
Your animal companion example is apples and oranges. It explicitly states in the AC feature that you have an effective Druid Level of X with the companion, and that all effective druid levels stack.
This power doesn't state that. It says 'levels from a class that grants ki pool stack'.
One level in Monk is a level in monk.
Monk does grant ki pool (just at level 4).
The monk's first 3 levels do count toward his ki pool, if you look, his ki pool is 'Monk level / 2 + Wis Bonus'. Not 'One half of monk level from level four onward' or '(monk level - 4) / 2'.
I think RAI is that it should have stacked once the monk hit level 4, but I think the RAW is that any monk level's stack.
EDIT
I think the best way to handle it would have been to put something into the ki pool that stated how to merge pools when the pool's are from different classes. For example :
If you have levels in another class that grants ki pool, you may stack your levels in that class with your Ninja levels to determine the level of your ki pool. You must have actually gained the ability from the class before it can stack. If the ki pools from classes gain bonus from different stats, you may, upon gaining access to the second ki pool, choose which stat you wish to use for your ki pool bonus stat. Once this decision is made, it cannot be changed.
I think something along the lines above would have done the RAI.
No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.
Well by RAW being stealth-ed doesn't deny DEX to your opponent after battle has started so no sneak attack on the first attack either. (unless sniping)
And a level three monk doesn't grant points to a Ki pool last I checked, at level 4 levels 1-3 grant points but before that I am pretty sure they dont. Clearing it up is obviously necessary though
... This power doesn't state that. It says 'levels from a class that grants ki pool stack' ...Again you skip words and again miss the the RAW. I am cutting the line straight from the PDF.
If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki poolLets say you have one level in monk nothing else. Currently, zero levels are granting "points to a ki pool" and this remains the case until you take your fourth level of monk at which point all those levels grant "points to a ki pool" but before that fourth level zero are.
This information in no way changes if your a ninja 2 multiclassing into monk 1, that one level of monk is currently not granting "points to a ki pool" and thus the stacking rules do not apply until that fourth level at which all levels apply.
I didn't skip words or rules. I agree you quoted the PDF accurately. I even agree your interpretation is probably the RAI.
They are not, however, the RAW. Due to the word choices, it's any levels in a class that grants points to a ki pool. A monk is a class that grants points to a ki pool. Unfortnately, no matter how many times you repeat that, it does not say 'provided that class has actually provided points'. It just says the class has to grant them.
Again, I agree that RAI is that it shouldn't stack until 4th level when the ki pool is granted. But that's not what the ability says, it says levels in a class that grants ki points, not levels in a class that grants ki pool ability. If it said ki pool ability, then the monk would only count at 4th level and above.
You see, I'm not skipping or ignoring words, you are ignoring the very plain words you quoted in order to interpret them as you feel they were intended (which I agree that was the intention). The ability currently reads as 'granting ki points', not 'granting ki pool'. That is a very specific difference. Level 1 to 3 grants ki points, but you cannot access them until level 4 as a monk. It does not mean that levels 1 to 3 do not grant ki points (they most obviously do, since the ki pool power states it's level / 2 points, including 1st to 3rd levels).
it says levels in a class that grant points, level 1 monk is not a level in a class that grants points to a ki pool. No class grants points to a ki pool at level one. It may be a class that grants points to a ki pool but level one is not a level in any class that grants points. level 4 modifies level one
I understand you agree that it's RAI but the way it is worded lets you change the meaning depending on the word you emphasize
I understand you agree that it's RAI but the way it is worded lets you change the meaning depending on the word you emphasize
Which was sort of the point? That as written it's wonky and needs to be rewritten. As I suggested about 5 or 6 posts ago.
Hmmm, I've said this before, but the problem with dipping into monk in order to add Wis to your Ki pool instead of Cha is that Cha is still used for a lot of other ninja abilities. You'll basically be stuck avoiding any ninja trick that involves a saving throw.
We have established, then, that the ability as-written works one of two ways, depending on your interpretation of the words 'grants points in a ki pool':
-Either level 1 monk does work as part of the ki pool
or
-Levels 1-3 monk do not work, but somehow level 4 monk does switch on and starts working, retroactively including levels 1-3 which did not work before but now somehow do.
The latter of the two seems somewhat off when you consider that the whole of the monk's level is included in that class's Ki points, however the rule does require some clarification no matter how you slice it. On that point, we can all agree.
Your arguement is that you are flatfooted in a surprise round when you are surprised but when a target is invisible and you do not know he is there you retain your dex bonus to AC instantly when he becomes visible even though his shurikens have already left his hands before you have had time to act?
You only get a standard action in a surprise round, so you aren't throwing four shuriken anyway.
If you're ahead of your victim for initiative for the first full round of combat? Sure, you can throw a flurry of sneak attacks then -- but you could if you weren't invisible, too.
No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.Well by RAW being stealth-ed doesn't deny DEX to your opponent after battle has started so no sneak attack on the first attack either. (unless sniping)
Actually, yes, you get your sneak damage on your first attack, if the opponent is unaware of you ( due to stealth ). Look above where I cited the core rulebook on how a surprise round works.
Actually, yes, you get your sneak damage on your first attack, if the opponent is unaware of you ( due to stealth ). Look above where I cited the core rulebook on how a surprise round works.No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.Well by RAW being stealth-ed doesn't deny DEX to your opponent after battle has started so no sneak attack on the first attack either. (unless sniping)
If you want to get really rules-lawyery, the stealth rules state that you cannot use the skill in combat (with sniping a noted exception) so I could see how you could argue that it won't apply to the first attack. It depends on if you see stealth as becoming hidden or as staying hidden, kind of, if it requires active actions not to get spotted.
If you want to get really rules-lawyery, the stealth rules state that you cannot use the skill in combat (with sniping a noted exception) so I could see how you could argue that it won't apply to the first attack. It depends on if you see stealth as becoming hidden or as staying hidden, kind of, if it requires active actions not to get spotted.Actually, yes, you get your sneak damage on your first attack, if the opponent is unaware of you ( due to stealth ). Look above where I cited the core rulebook on how a surprise round works.No, that's still not how stealth works. You break stealth after your first attack, sneak doesn't apply after the first attack.Well by RAW being stealth-ed doesn't deny DEX to your opponent after battle has started so no sneak attack on the first attack either. (unless sniping)
Combat begins with the surprise round. If you are stealthed in the surprise round, your opponent is unaware of you and thus flat-footed. Then initiative happens and if you go first, he is still flat-footed.
Combat begins with the surprise round. If you are stealthed in the surprise round, your opponent is unaware of you and thus flat-footed. Then initiative happens and if you go first, he is still flat-footed.
First off, if combat starts with the surprise round, stealth stops working when the surprise round begins. Personally, I think combat starts for a character the first time he interacts with someone else. I mean, if he's two hundred feet away when the rest of the party has the surprise round and he arrives late, combat begins when he takes an action (or someone there interacts with him).
Secondly, unaware =/= flatfooted. If you're invisible and fighting a deaf enemy without scent or anything like that, your opponent is unaware of you but still not flat-footed. Flat-footed is the condition of not being able to defend yourself properly due to not having acted in combat - it has nothing to do with awareness, really. Yes, the rogue would get sneak attack damage - but stealth has nothing to do with it, and the surprise round has everything to do with it.
First off, if combat starts with the surprise round, stealth stops working when the surprise round begins. Personally, I think combat starts for a character the first time he interacts with someone else. I mean, if he's two hundred feet away when the rest of the party has the surprise round and he arrives late, combat begins when he takes an action (or someone there interacts with him).
No, that's plainly wrong. Combat begins when the party begins combat. If he is two hundred feets away, tough luck, his combat begins on the same round.
Secondly, unaware =/= flatfooted. If you're invisible and fighting a deaf enemy without scent or anything like that, your opponent is unaware of you but still not flat-footed. Flat-footed is the condition of not being able to defend yourself properly due to not having acted in combat - it has nothing to do with awareness, really. Yes, the rogue would get sneak attack damage - but stealth has nothing to do with it, and the surprise round has everything to do with it.
Again, I quote from the Core Rulebook. Page 178.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.