Here is the contestant. I'll do a combat with the Ninja in a while. :)
Captain Teague Sparrow
Level 11 Human Inquisitor of Besmara
STR 14
DEX 22 ( 16 + 2 lvl + 4 Enh )
CON 14
WIS 16 ( 14 + 2 Enh )
INT 10
CHA 10
Initiative: +13
Move: 30 ft.
HP: 83
Attack ( Base ): +18/+13
Damage ( Base ): 1d8+5
AC: 25 ( Touch 16; Flat-Footed 20 ) ( +8 armor + 5 dexterity + 1 deflection +1 natural armor )
Fort: +11 Ref: +11 Will: +12
CMD: +9 ´; CMD 26
Equipment ( 82.000 GP )
Belt of Dexterity +4 = 16.000; Composite Longbow +3 +2 STR = 18.600 ; Boots of Speed = 12.000; Ring of Protection +1 = 2.000; Amulet of Natural Armor +1 = 2.000; Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 = 4.000; Cloak of Resistance +2 with Muleback Chords = 5.500; Mithral Breastplate +2 = 8.200; Rapier +1 = 2.320; Dagger +1 = 2.302; Lesser Bracers of Archery = 5.000; Handy Haversack = 2.000; Arrows ( 40 ) = 2 ; Adamantite Arrows ( 10 ) = 600,5; Silver Arrows ( 20 ) = 41; Pirate Codex
Feats:
1 Point-Blank-Shot; 1 Precise Shot; 3 Deadly Aim; 5 Rapid Shot; 7 Weapon Finesse; 9 Manyshot; 11 Improved Initiative; 3 Lookout; 6 Allied Spellcaster; 9 Coordinated Defense
Skills:
Perception +17; Stealth +19; Sense Motive +17; Survival +17; Knowledge: The Planes +11; Knowledge: Religion +12; Knowledge: Arcana: +11; Knowledge: Dungeoneering +10; Knowledge: Nature: +10; Bluff +4; Climb +5; Diplomacy +4; Disguise +4; Heal +7; Intimidate +4; Spellcraft +5; Swim +5;
Spells:
0: acid splash, brand, create water, detect magic, detect poison, light, read magic
1: comprehend languages, cure light wounds, divine favor, protection from evil, shield of faith, expeditious retreat, wrath
2: align weapon, ghostbane dirge, invisibility, resist energy, lesser restoration, see invisibility
3: arcane sight, cure serious wounds, daylight, dimensional anchor
4: death ward, greater invisibility, restoration
Spells per day:
1: 6
2: 5
3: 5
4: 2
Domain: Tactics ( or War )
Judgement: 4/day
Bane: 11 rds/day
As a warm-up, I'll do a fight against the opponents Yuengling has used before. So, we start with a Bebilith. For the purpose of these fights, I'll assume that Tactics is a valid domain for Besmara. It certainly fits the pirate theme.
CR 10 – Bebilith
Initiative: Captain Teague ( 28 ), Bebilith ( 6 )
Teague eyes the Bebilith warily, uses his Knowledge: The Planes to determine what he is facing ( Roll: 25 ). Succeeding on the check he tries to remember a bit of useful information and gets aware of its damage reduction 10/good. He casts Greater Invisibility and moves stealthily at full speed to a new position 30 feet diagonically away from it ( 35 ), while drawing his bow.
The Bebilith uses Scent to determine where Teague has gone ( 23 ), yet fails to do so. Nonetheless, it moves to his last known position.
Teague casts Align Weapon ( good ), activates his Judgement ( Destruction + Justice ) and again moves stealthily to a new position, this time at half speed. ( 58 )
The Bebilith again tries to locate Teague, but fails even with a rolled 20 ( 36 ).
Teague casts Divine Favor and again moves stealthily to a new position at half speed. ( 45 ). The Bebilith once more tries to track him with Scent, yet again fails ( 31 ).
Sensing that his time has come, Teague activates Bane ( Evil Outsider )as a swift action, his Boots of Speed as a free action and full-attacks, with Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Deadly Aim.
Rolls: 20 ( 42 ) -> Roll to confirm 38; 9 ( 31 ); 9 ( 31 ); 3 ( 20 ). Three hits!
Damage: 1d8 + 2d6 + 19 = 30x3 + 1d8 + 19 ( critical )x2 = 90 + 46 = 136 damage.
Teague moves away from his position five feet.
The Bebilith now has noticed where the arrows came from ( 27 ) and moves to that position. It tries to pinpoint Teague, yet that automatically fails since he is not in five feet of the Bebilith. The Bebilith instead tries to locate him once again ( 28 ) against his passive stealth of 40 ( That's with the +20 to stealth due to invisibility and as if he'd rolled a one ).
Since Teague is now in reach of the Bebilith, he decides to move away stealthily at half speed ( 44 ), which the Bebilith does not perceive ( 26 ). He drops Bane and Haste before doing so. Since he figures that he has all the time in the world, he chooses not to attack this round.
The Bebilith again tries to find Teague ( 27 ) yet continues to fail to do so.
Getting tired of this, Teague activates Bane as a swift action, Haste as a free action and rolls another full attack, with Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Deadly Aim.
2 ( 23 ); 11 ( 36 ); 3 ( 24 ); 14 ( 30 ). Two hits.
Damage: 1d8 + 2d6 + 19 = 30x2 = 60 Damage.
Tne Bebilith expires messily.
Quite honestly, I can't see the encounters against the young black dragons and the elder water elemental going much differently, so I'll save myself the time to do them. I need to go out and do so RL stuff, so I'll be back with the Ninja vs. Pirate Inquisitor encounter later or tomorrow.
ok I understand that the planeshift ability won't be really useful in this case (since what I understand of the arena is leaving it is like dying) so fight to death it is...
But there's a few thing I don't uderstand :
Why the Bebilith hasn't tried to track the Inquisitor by smell ? (DC10 to track by smell vs the +16 survival of the Bebilith...)
When the inquisitor is within 30 feet of the Bebilith the Bebilith automatically sense the Inquisotor then, has a move action knows the direction of the Inquisitor... He just has to bull rush in this direction et voila...
You said that it will be as easy with the two dragons ? Really ? With blindsense 60 feet ? A breath weapon ? a flying speed of 150 feet ?
ok I understand that the planeshift ability won't be really useful in this case (since what I understand of the arena is leaving it is like dying) so fight to death it is...
But there's a few thing I don't uderstand :
Why the Bebilith hasn't tried to track the Inquisitor by smell ? (DC10 to track by smell vs the +16 survival of the Bebilith...)
When the inquisitor is within 30 feet of the Bebilith the Bebilith automatically sense the Inquisotor then, has a move action knows the direction of the Inquisitor... He just has to bull rush in this direction et voila...
Et voila what? I'm sorry, but the general direction of the Inquisitor doesn't allow the Bebilith the Trample ability. You can only bullrush someone who you can target.
But, yeah, I missed the DC 10 to, uh, read tracks. I'm not sure about the wording of Scent, because it doesn't say exactly how you can pinpoint the opponent, besides being five feet from him.
You said that it will be as easy with the two dragons ? Really ? With blindsense 60 feet ? A breath weapon ? a flying speed of 150 feet ?
The breath weapon is about the only thing of concern, but 12d6 in total won't kill the Inquisitor.
Hm. Is this a playtest of the Stealth RAW?
Why didn`t the Bebilith get checks to notice from what square it HEARD spellcasting?
I`m also confused about the latter part of the battle, where you say Beb DOES pinpoint the square he was attacked from, but then can`t pinpoint the current location of the Inquisitor who `5` stepped from` that location.
Sensing that his time has come, Teague activates Bane ( Evil Outsider )as a swift action, his Boots of Speed as a free action and full-attacks, with Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Deadly Aim.
(...attack and damage rolls...)
Teague moves away from his position five feet.The Bebilith now has noticed where the arrows came from ( 27 ) and moves to that position. It tries to pinpoint Teague, yet that automatically fails since he is not in five feet of the Bebilith.
BTW, a good tactic to use for scent when you can`t discern the exact square but know the general vicinity is using a Move Action to move around the general area hoping to bump into the target. Possibly can provoke AoO`s, but it works. Because sensing the `general direction` is relatively easy, your search area is really pared down, enough that you really have a very good chance. Now you just have to make the remaining Standard Action COUNT.
<sigh> Why does the whole thing turn now into a "Scent" playtest?
Hm. Is this a playtest of the Stealth RAW?
No, you guys are making it into one.
Why didn`t the Bebilith get checks to notice from what square it HEARD spellcasting?
I always used the "cast spells, then move away" tactic for just that. I might have had the Bebilith ready an action to move towards the the voice, though.
I`m also confused about the latter part of the battle, where you say Beb DOES pinpoint the square he was attacked from, but then can`t pinpoint the current location of the Inquisitor who `5` stepped from` that location.
I supposed that seeing where arrows suddenly appear would be one of the things which would work immediately. The pinpointing after the Bebilith had moved did not work, because, as scent says, the target needs to be 5 feet away from you. Teague had moved away from his spot because of that.
Anyway, even if the Bebilith had pinpointed the Inquisitor, he would have maybe taken one attack of opportunity.
BTW, a good tactic to use for scent when you can`t discern the exact square but know the general vicinity is using a Move Action to move around the general area hoping to bump into the target. Possibly can provoke AoO`s, but it works. Because sensing the `general direction` is relatively easy, your search area is really pared down, enough that you really have a very good chance. Now you just have to make the remaining Standard Action COUNT.
True enough. I really would have liked to know which size the arena is, though, because if there are borders, the possibility of moving away backwards would have been restricted. As is, I had to assume it has size "infinity" and I moved sideways, anyway, to avoid this tactic of "roaming around". I admit that I glossed over the perception issue with the spellcasting, but I still used the right tactics ( cast then move ) to avoid any possible repercussions.
So, here we are, the long-awaited duel between the Ninja and the Pirate Inquisitor. I will assume that Kato can get "Extra Ninja Trick" and he gets "See the Unseen". Otherwise this combat would be over really quick-like.
Both start at 30 feet from each other in the "infinitely large" arena. No obstacles to hide behind.
First try
Initiative: Teague 26 ( 13 ), Kato 16 ( 14 ).
Teague goes first, proclaims "Arrrh, the code says Ninjas be less awesome than Pirates! Die!" and activates his Boots of Speed, Judgement ( Destruction + Justice ) and full-attacks with Rapid Shot, Manyshot and Deadly Aim ( 18 + 3 + 1 - 2 - 3 = +17/+17/+17/+12 ).
Attack rolls: 36 ( 19 ), 34 ( 17 ), 28 ( 11 ), 27 ( 15 ). 4 hits, an extraordinary series of rolls.
Damage: 1d8 + 16 x5 = 102 damage.
Kato is dead before he could act.
Well, that went a bit too easy and depended on the initiative ( which Teague should win, given that he can roll twice and has +13 to Katos +2 ) and that I rolled sufficiently high, which I did.
Let's try it with a more careful Captain Teague.
Second try
Initiative: Teague 33 ( 20 ), Kate 8 ( 6 ).
Kato uses "plot armor" to true ressurect himself. :p
Teague goes first, yells "Why did Davy Jones let you out of his locker again?" and, worriedly, activates his Boots of Speed, Judgement ( Destruction + Justice ), casts Greater Invisibility and moves ( while drawing his weapon ) stealthily at full speed 60 foot straight away from Kato ( Stealth = 39, rolled 10 ).
Kato flips out and wants to kill Teague. He spends one Ki point and uses Shadow Clone ( 4 + 3 images = 7 ), Invisible Blade and See the Unseen. He moves five feet in the direction of the now clearly visibly Teague. His weapon is already in his hand, because Ninjas fight ALL the time.
Teague suddenly begins to really sweat, as the Ninja first spouts seven comrades and then they all disappear. He casts See Invisibility, percepts the non-hidden Ninjas and activates Weapon Master from the Tactics ( or War, if you don't think Besmara gets Tactics ) domain. He chooses to get Weapon Focus: Bows. Teague moves stealthily at full speed 60 feet backwards ( Stealth = 40, rolled 11 ), putting his distance to Kato now at 145 feet.
Kato realizes that he better get in traction if he doesn't want to end up as a pin-cushion again. He uses one ki point to add 20 feet to his speed and double moves, closing the distance to teague to 45 feet. Kato trusts that his Shadow Clones will suffice to avoid a messy death.
Teague, realizing that the Ninja can see him uses Bane ( Ninja, err, humanoid ( human ) ) and full-attacks, using the usual Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim combo ( 18 + 3 + 2 + 1 + 1 - 2 - 3 = +20/+20/+20/+15 )
Attack rolls: 39 ( 19 ), 22 ( 2 ), 25 ( 5 ), 30 ( 15 ). Three hits.
Shadow Clones hit: 2,3,8. Three clones disappear, leaving Kato and four doubles.
Teague moves five feet away, putting the distance once again at 50 feet.
Kato spends another Ki point for a 20 foot increase, single moves and stands before Teague. He spends another Ki point for an extra attack and double attacks.
Attack rolls: 38 ( 19 ) -> roll to confirm: 25 ( 6 ) just confirmed!, 20 ( 1 ). One critical hit, one critical miss.
Damage: 2d10 + 39 = 49 damage ( rolled 5 ), one point shy of a massive damage roll.
Teague now really feels the pressure, his hit points just got cut down to less than half in one attack. Thinking quickly, he takes a five foot step, changes one of his judgements from Destruction to Protection and casts Shield of Faith, bringing his total AC to 30. He leaves his Bane going, not wanting to waste another possibly important swift action to bring it up again later.
Kato five-foot steps, spends one Ki point for another attack, and full-attacks. ( +19/+19/+11 )
Attack rolls: 26 ( 7 ), 27 ( 8 ), 18 ( 7 ). Kato swears profusely in Minkainese.
Teague takes another five foot step and also full-attacks the five Katos. ( +20/+20/+20/+15 )
Attack rolls: 25 ( 5 ), 37 ( 17 ), 23 ( 3 ), 25 ( 10 ). Three hits.
Shadow Clones hit: 1,4,5, one real hit, Kato is down to two Shadow Clones.
Damage: 1d8 + 2d6 + 2 + 5 + 6 = 22 damage ( average ).
Kato notices that he is fastly running out of Shadow Clones, so he spends a standard action and one Ki point ( now three remaining ) and moves towards Teague. ( Shadow Clones -> 3 + 3 images = 6 ).
Teague curses heartily as Kato again conjures 3 new additional friends. Realizing that his chance to hit is much higher if he just shoots blindly, he takes a five foot step backwards, closes his eyes and full-attacks. Kato benefits from full concealment, but loses the benefit of the shadow clones.
Attack rolls: 37 ( 17 ), 34 ( 14 ), 31 ( 11 ), 35 ( 20 ) -> 28 ( 13 ) confirmed. 4 hits, one critical.
Miss chance 50% ( d100, high hit, low miss ) : 8, 12, 20, 98. One hit, but that one is the critical hit.
Damage: 1d8 + 13 x3 + 2d6 ) = 59 damage
That brings Katos HP down to -1 HP, dropping him. Teague carefully opens his eyes and breaths a sigh of relief, followed by a "thank you, lass!" to Besmara. Teague casts a few Cure Serious Wounds to bring himself up to full. He then bludgeons Kato to death with the pirate codex.
That was much closer than I thought it'd be, proving that the Ninja is well-balanced with the Inquisitor, IMO. He burns awfully fast through his Ki points that way, though, while the Inquisitor still has seven rounds of Bane left and three Judgements.
Rematch. The dice favored Teague - need to normalize results with more fights :)
just pointing out, that the above inquisitor, really dosnt have 200 DPR. Sure he can reach that number, but his average DPR which should surely be what is compared, would be more like.
lvl 12 mob has average ac 27 (bestiary)
+22(x2)/+22/+22/+17
for average 38.5 dam
gives
0.8x38.5x2 + 0.8x38.5 + 0.8x38.5 + 0.55x38.5 = 144.4
+ crit damage which is
0.05x0.8x24.5x2 + 0.05x0.8x24.5x2 + 0.05x0.8x24.5x2 + 0.05x0.55x24.5x2 =
5.88 + 1.3475 = 7.23
total DPR = 151.63 (with some rounding errors possibly)
and if we compare this to an equal level fighter, he wont beat the fighter. So considering the inquisitor only can do this 4 times a day (i think) and he needs a round to prepare, i really dont think he is anywhere close to the best DPR in the game. will be exciting to see the fight vs ninja though. Couse rogues always seem to lack behind if we compare pure DPR.
really liked the fight. Although if i was a GM i would consider closing your eyes and full attacking with a ranged weapon to be so much cheeze that i wouldnt allow it. But as its definately a hole in the rules its probably legal here right?
Rematch. The dice favored Teague - need to normalize results with more fights :)
Ugh, I'll pass. Writing up those fights takes time and I am beginning major prep for my upcoming Kingmaker campaign. But you guys have all the necessary data, play with the numbers as you like. ;)
just pointing out, that the above inquisitor, really dosnt have 200 DPR. Sure he can reach that number, but his average DPR which should surely be what is compared, would be more like.
lvl 12 mob has average ac 27 (bestiary)
+22(x2)/+22/+22/+17
for average 38.5 dam
gives0.8x38.5x2 + 0.8x38.5 + 0.8x38.5 + 0.55x38.5 = 144.4
+ crit damage which is
0.05x0.8x24.5x2 + 0.05x0.8x24.5x2 + 0.05x0.8x24.5x2 + 0.05x0.55x24.5x2 =
5.88 + 1.3475 = 7.23total DPR = 151.63 (with some rounding errors possibly)
and if we compare this to an equal level fighter, he wont beat the fighter. So considering the inquisitor only can do this 4 times a day (i think) and he needs a round to prepare, i really dont think he is anywhere close to the best DPR in the game. will be exciting to see the fight vs ninja though. Couse rogues always seem to lack behind if we compare pure DPR.
True, I should have said "up to 200 DPR". The Inquisitor only has this when going nova, but that can be up to his level in rounds per day and he can choose when to use it on a round-per-round basis. The Judgements are only four times per day at level eleven, but I honestly don't think that a typical group does much more encounters per day, since the casters will run dry at this point, too.
As for the one round of prep, during this time the Fighter needs to get into position to be able to full-attack, which an archer Inquisitor does not, necessarily.In any case, my little PvP experiment showed that the Ninja can keep up with the Inquisitor in a direct confrontation. The resources ( Ki points ) of the Ninja run dry much faster than the Inquisitors, though.
I would say that a similarly equipped Rogue would have been perforated to all hell and back much faster, though, so the Ninja seems to be better than the Rogue in that regard. Which, again, speaks more to the problems a Rogue has than that the Ninja is somehow overpowered. Of course a plain arena with nowhere to hide disfavours sneak attacking classes in single combat immensely.
really liked the fight. Although if i was a GM i would consider closing your eyes and full attacking with a ranged weapon to be so much cheeze that i wouldnt allow it. But as its definately a hole in the rules its probably legal here right?
That's not cheesy at all and something you almost always do against opponents with gaze attacks.
Also, ninja should change tactics for the fight - he'd have torn the inquisitor apart if he had opted to disarm or sunder the bow.
Also, ninja should change tactics for the fight - he'd have torn the inquisitor apart if he had opted to disarm or sunder the bow.
Hm, probably. CMB of +15 against a CMD of 26 gives a 50% of hitting that. OTOH, I took Weapon Finesse for just that eventuality. Also, I could have used the "close my eyes" trick from the first round when Kato used Shadow Clones, so I didn't optimize my tactics, neither.
Again, run the numbers to your hearts content, I am off reading 600 threads in the Kingmaker forum for interesting content for my own campaign. ^^
but magnus, and this is where i would say the "close the eyes" tactic fall short. I would claim, and the reason i wouldnt allow it for Ranged attack, that a ranged attack is most definately based on sight as you hit such a small area. Therefore as blind condition states, any check based on sight or roll assosiated with sight, auto fails. A person in melee combot can still attack a lot of the air with his weapon trying to hit something, while the archer dosnt have that luxury.
But as im interpreting ranged as an attack where sight is essential, i can see although i strongly disagree, in the other interpretation of the rules. Giving the advantage to the ninja in that fight.
but magnus, and this is where i would say the "close the eyes" tactic fall short. I would claim, and the reason i wouldnt allow it for Ranged attack, that a ranged attack is most definately based on sight as you hit such a small area. Therefore as blind condition states, any check based on sight or roll assosiated with sight, auto fails. A person in melee combot can still attack a lot of the air with his weapon trying to hit something, while the archer dosnt have that luxury.
But as im interpreting ranged as an attack where sight is essential, i can see although i strongly disagree, in the other interpretation of the rules. Giving the advantage to the ninja in that fight.
Concealment rules are abstract, just as with hit points or falling damage. As per the rules, there is absolutely no difference if you make a melee or ranged attack against a target with full concealment.
correct there is no difference between the 2 with relation to concealment. But blinded condition grants more than just concealment. you get -2 to attacks, are denied dex bonus to AC, and auto fails every check related to sight. So the question is whether you or the GM will consider a ranged attack as a sight based check. I would argue it is. Therefore as per the rules for blinded that must be what is counting.
You do agree that if you close your eyes in combat, you effectively gain the blinded condition right? Would you or your GM allow a player to close his eyes for attack rolls, gaining blinded for those, and then opening it for the rest of your action or what? if one of my players wanted that condition, i would atleast require him to gain both "benifits" and disadvantages of it.
If you can rule close your eyes as anything else than blinded, i would like to see what and where in the rules it is you are using. actually a pretty interesting rules question i would say. if you are not up to discussing it, maybe i should make a seperate post where i can use that as a rules question.
correct there is no difference between the 2 with relation to concealment. But blinded condition grants more than just concealment. you get -2 to attacks, are denied dex bonus to AC, and auto fails every check related to sight. So the question is whether you or the GM will consider a ranged attack as a sight based check. I would argue it is. Therefore as per the rules for blinded that must be what is counting.
Attacking in melee would also count as "related to sight", then. And it is pretty clear that you can blindly attack a square.
And you do not get a -2 to attacks, but to armor class.
You do agree that if you close your eyes in combat, you effectively gain the blinded condition right? Would you or your GM allow a player to close his eyes for attack rolls, gaining blinded for those, and then opening it for the rest of your action or what? if one of my players wanted that condition, i would atleast require him to gain both "benifits" and disadvantages of it.
Yes, opening and closing your eyes would count for me, as a GM or player ( which I both do ) as free actions, hence I would allow a player to close his eyes for a full attack and open them afterwards.
If you can rule close your eyes as anything else than blinded, i would like to see what and where in the rules it is you are using. actually a pretty interesting rules question i would say. if you are not up to discussing it, maybe i should make a seperate post where i can use that as a rules question.
Yes, you gain the blinded condition while you close your eyes, that's the whole point of doing so in regards to Mirror Images. Go forward and make a separate thread , I'll be looking at the ensueing discussion with interest. :)
well, i could be a real rules lawyer and simply state that there is no rule mechanic for closing your eyes during combat, thus it cant be done. Although that does seem a bit wierd i know.
Ill be making the thread tomorrow morning then, and we can see what people say. Would be nice to hear from a GM too.
It also makes sence that you will keep the condition "closed eyes" till the beginning of your next turn, as the combat goes on simultanious and not periodicly. So if a character decided to close his eyes for all of his turn (the entire 6 secs) he would be affected when everyone else acted too. Remember the sequence is only an abstraction
Level 11 Halfling Ninja
STR 10 (-2 race)
DEX 24 (+4 enhancement, 1 lv, +2 race)
CON 14
WIS 12
INT 8
CHA 20 (+2 enhancement, 1 lv, +2 race)
Initiative: +7
Move: 20 ft.
HP: 86
Attack ( Base ): Shurikens (+16/+11) or 1 ki (+14/+14/+14/+9) or 2 ki (+14/+14/+14/+14/+9) and an additional attack and +1 to all above while hasted.
Damage ( Base ): 1d2 +0
AC: 29 (+7 dex, +1 insight, +1 deflection, +1 natural armor, +9 (+3 Chainmail)
Fort: +6 Ref: +14 Will: +5
CMD: 24 (10+8(BAB)-1(size)+7(dex)+0(str))
CMB: +7 (+8 BAB -1 size)
Equipment ( 80,800 GP )
Belt of Dexterity +4 (16,000); Headband of Charisma +2 (4,000); Ring of deflection +1 (2000); Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000); Ioun stone Rusty Rose +1 insight (2,500); Boots of Speed (12000); Celestial Armor (22,400); Stealth cloak +8 (6,400); Wand of Dispel magic (13,500)
Plenty of Shurikens
Mule back cords on the cloak
Abilities:
Sneak Attack +6d6
Light Steps
Poison Use
Ki Pool (9)
No trace
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Fly Spell once per day
Feats: 1,3,5,7,9,11
Weapon Focus Shuriken
Skill Focus (Intimidate)
Medium Armor Proficiency
Shadow Strike
Dazzling Display
Shatter Defenses (9th)
Skills:
Replaces Surefooted with Swift as Shadows
Perception +16; Stealth +31; Disguise +19; Use Magic Device +19; Intimidate +25
Tricks:
Flurry of Shurikens
Shadow Clone
See The Unseen
Smoke Bomb
Pressure Points
Tactics:
Starts in Disguise as another being (inquisitor can perception check to decipher disguise otherwise will probably choose the wrong bane property)
Throws down smoke bomb on self and hides in the smoke.
From inside the smoke he throws shurikens as part of his dazzling display or steps out of the smoke to do so to intimidate the said inquisitor (DC 24 which if he takes ten on he beats by 11) meaning that he is shaken for 3 rounds.
The next two rounds he would then full attack with shurikens all at his flat footed AC meaning all attacks are sneak attack.
if only 4 attacks hit on his 6 he can get thats 24d6 +4d2 which averages out to be 90 damage which kills the inquisitor out right.
you being flatfooted while also being shaken for 3 rounds while I can sneak attack from the edge of my smoke fog and hide inside is quite nice. Not to mention shadow clone might not even need to be used.
If you pull some magic I dont like Ill use the wand of dispel magic to counter.
If at any time his life becomes threated he throws a smoke bomb and bails.
Meaning one round of haste. 2 of his 10 ki points and plenty of day to go.
so one sided is it?
well, i could be a real rules lawyer and simply state that there is no rule mechanic for closing your eyes during combat, thus it cant be done. Although that does seem a bit wierd i know.
Actually there are, for gaze attacks.
so one sided is it?
Dude, I built my character for how I would play it in RL. You built yours specifically for PvP. Go and run the combat, I don't majorly care.
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Sam gets the only Heal available to the party bringing him back up to 103. Kato gets another cure light for 6 bringing him to 78. Horace gets a Cure Mod for 21 bringing him to his full 63.
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Hard – Two CR10 Kalavakus Demons (Bestiary 2)
Initiative will go Kalavakus Demons (they got a natural 20), Sam, Kato
Demon 1 uses Enslave Soul on Kato who resists (15) the demon’s promises of everlasting boobies but is staggered. Undeterred he issues the Greater Command to fall against both heroes. Kato succeeds again (15). Sam uses resolve (16,4) and passes. Horace would fail (11) if it weren’t for Devotion which puts him over the edge. Demon 2 uses Enslave Soul against Sam who uses Resolve again to roll twice (6,7). He fails anyway. Demon 2 then casts Haste.
Sam challenges Demon 1 and moves to the diagonal space above and to the left of Demon 1 and attacks defensively with his Katana. He hits (14) and deals 19 damage (106 remains)
Kato uses Invisible Blade and moves in a flanking position to Demon 1. That’s all he can do thanks to the staggered condition inflicted on him by Enslave Soul.
Demon 1 takes a 5’ step to the left and full attacks against Sam getting an extra Gore because of Haste. He hits with both claws and both gore attacks (11,20,16,20,20). The claw confirms but neither gores do. Sam uses another Resolve to negate the crit. The Kalavakus Demon deals 47 damage (56 remains for Sam). Demon 2 takes a 5’ step to get to Sam and full attacks as well. He hits with his bite, both claws and a gore (15,20,18,6,17). The threat doesn’t confirm (6). He deals 41 damage (15 remains for Sam).
Sam takes a 5’ step away from Demon 2 and full attacks defensively, not using his shield. He hits twice with his katana (20,20,14). He confirms once (20,1) and deals 64 damage in total (42 remains). His Ronin ability Self-Reliant allows him to save again vs Enslave Soul and he succeeds (16) wrenching his soul back from eternal damnation. Horace hits with a power attacking hoof (4,9,18) dealing 5 damage (37 remains for Demon 1).
Kato 5’ steps flanking Demon 1. He power sneaks (19,11) and confirms (2) with the aid of flanking and invisibility bonuses. He deals a whopping 111 damage obliterating Demon 1.
Demon 2 is enraged by the loss of his beautiful, if slightly beaten about, soul. He full attacks Sam, hitting with both claws (12,15,17,4,3). The demon deals 17 damage which would knock Sam unconscious but another handy Ronin ability Without Master keeps him at 1hp and conscious.
Sam and Horace withdraw 120’. He’d rather like to survive this whole thing.
Kato moves the 10’ separating him from Demon 2 and power sneaks. He hits (12) and deals 39 damage (86 remains).
Demon 2 full attacks Kato and his with everything but his second gore (17,14,12,9,7). A claw and a gore get past miss chance and deal 21 damage (57 remains). Being the canny bastard he is he also takes a 5’ step away.
Sam keeps running.
Kato 5’steps adjacent to the demon and uses what I believe is his last ki point to get an extra attack. He hits twice (7,11) and deals 86 damage on the nose. Yay!
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I can't believe they survived that. Well, Sam barely did. It was really cool getting to use a few of the Samurai abilities, specifically the Ronin ones. Even though their challenge blows a bit, Self Reliant and Without Master are pretty cool. Maybe not cool enough to balance the challenge lameness but close.
I look forward to seeing Kato and Sam in the Arena again when the second version of the playtest comes out.
I can't believe they survived that. Well, Sam barely did. It was really cool getting to use a few of the Samurai abilities, specifically the Ronin ones. Even though their challenge blows a bit, Self Reliant and Without Master are pretty cool. Maybe not cool enough to balance the challenge lameness but close.
I look forward to seeing Kato and Sam in the Arena again when the second version of the playtest comes out.
Yeah, give the poor guys a rest until that happens. They surely deserved it. Especially Kato, with getting sucker-challenged by an irate Pirate. :p
so one sided is it?Dude, I built my character for how I would play it in RL. You built yours specifically for PvP. Go and run the combat, I don't majorly care.
Sorry you feel I wouldn't play this character lol but I HAVE played something simliar with a rogue and it was quite fun.
The above tactics are just much easier with a ninja, to the point of near broken is all I was saying. His intimidate will shaken most creatures (a 35 would beat most creatures he would face at 11th level, not to mention he can use stealth in his own smoke cloud.
I think it would atleast be interesting to see the fight but personally why bother if you feel that sourly about it.
so one sided is it?Dude, I built my character for how I would play it in RL. You built yours specifically for PvP. Go and run the combat, I don't majorly care.Sorry you feel I wouldn't play this character lol but I HAVE played something simliar with a rogue and it was quite fun.
The above tactics are just much easier with a ninja, to the point of near broken is all I was saying. His intimidate will shaken most creatures (a 35 would beat most creatures he would face at 11th level, not to mention he can use stealth in his own smoke cloud.
I think it would atleast be interesting to see the fight but personally why bother if you feel that sourly about it.
Say what you want, it wasn't a fair fight. You set it up so you would auto-win initiative, which normally would not happen considering the how the Inquisitor has 5 higher initiative then the ninja. If the secret powerful in Pathfinder/DnD/most tabletop games is efficient action economy, you gave won by giving yourself a huge advantage.
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Say what you want, it wasn't a fair fight. You set it up so you would auto-win initiative, which normally would not happen considering the how the Inquisitor has 5 higher initiative then the ninja. If the secret powerful in Pathfinder/DnD/most tabletop games is efficient action economy, you gave won by giving yourself a huge advantage.
Oh good lord.
Lets let this argument go. If we assume that the devs are at least as smart as you guys they'll look at the situation and decide what to take from it, if anything.
Say what you want, it wasn't a fair fight. You set it up so you would auto-win initiative, which normally would not happen considering the how the Inquisitor has 5 higher initiative then the ninja. If the secret powerful in Pathfinder/DnD/most tabletop games is efficient action economy, you gave won by giving yourself a huge advantage.Oh good lord.
Lets let this argument go. If we assume that the devs are at least as smart as you guys they'll look at the situation and decide what to take from it, if anything.
What I set out to do is to compare how an Inquisitor which is built for normal play ( look at the spell list, that's exactly how I would build it for maximum group utility ) would do against a similarly built Ninja and the Ninja came out looking quite balanced and well. Building a character specifically for PvP would result in a quite different build. And, uh, not sure how the Ninja would automatically win initiative, if we both start non-flatfooted 30 feet apart, as Yuengling put into the prerequisites.
Anyway, I'm off to combing through the restant 300 Kingmaker threads, so let's follow Yuenglings advice and let it go.
Please explain how that ninja is not capable of being totally playable?
I am confused how he is "just PVP"
sounds like you are just making up some crap because I made a build that out damaged the inquisitor?
I am also curious how the ninja "automatically wins initiative" since his initiative is much higher than mine (by +6).
I think it would be close at least. I just wanted to point out the extra attack might be much, it makes the ninja too good damage wise. That is all. Other than that erase the talent/trick wall and its a solid thumbs up from me.
Lets not forget this is not me trying to make magnuskun lose or that we were even competing, it was merely to show that with that extra attack he can even beat one of the most solid classes in the game on one full attack, which is just silly.
I am just trying to help the developers with balance. Being able to out damage a preped caster or fighter of that level is just not fair nor reasonable (especially with the other abilities they get).
But I agree with yuengling let the devs decide.
Please explain how that ninja is not capable of being totally playable?
I am confused how he is "just PVP"
sounds like you are just making up some crap because I made a build that out damaged the inquisitor?
I honestly don't care much, because I wasn't building my Inquisitor to go up against you. But, yeah, I am sure that the character as you built it would be exactly how you'd play it in a group, with the "hide in a smoke bomb" ( from which he looks out how, btw? ), Dazzling Display and Wand of Dispel Magic (which, btw, would have a chance of 1d20+5 vs. a DC of 22, so good luck with that ^^). But, okay, whatever.
I honestly don't care much, because I wasn't building my Inquisitor to go up against you. But, yeah, I am sure that the character as you built it would be exactly how you'd play it in a group, with the "hide in a smoke bomb" ( from which he looks out how, btw? ), Dazzling Display and Wand of Dispel Magic (which, btw, would have a chance of 1d20+5 vs. a DC of 22, so good luck with that ^^). But, okay, whatever.Please explain how that ninja is not capable of being totally playable?
I am confused how he is "just PVP"
sounds like you are just making up some crap because I made a build that out damaged the inquisitor?
?
seriously man? the snarky attitude is just uncalled for, especially the comments about my play style.
The way you see in the smoke is you move to the edge and take the 20% concealment against attacks (which normally dont work with sneak attack but the feat shadow strike allows it)
Secondly as for the wand of dispel magic its more for utility than anything it isn't a guarantee, I never said it was.
Dazzling Display requires you to make an intimidate check by displaying your weapon in some way, which is perfectly capable for ranged weapons to be done even in a smoke cloud. Although he could move outside the smoke cloud (like I suggest) to do that.
You built an inquisitor that fell short of all the things you said it could do when you used it as a counter arguement for why the ninja isn't overpowered. I am fine with you not agreeing with my view points, but when you fall short of what you said you could do then don't complain about it. I wasn't trying to beat you. I was trying to break the system, because some people will try to do that and the above is not only a possibility it is a likely route that takes almost no forethought (intimidate is a charisma skill which ninjas will excell at)
The smoke trick does many things. It creates a good way to hide, it creates an escape route, it allows for sneak if you do it right, it makes you harder to hit, AND most importantly NINJAS ACTUALLY WERE KNOWN FOR DOING THAT.
As for with a group, it works great with a group. With disguise as a skill and a high charisma this character could easily play the face, an assassin, a decent damage companion, and be perfectly ninja fun.
In fact I would argue this ninja is close to historically accurate for ninjas in history as they used intimidation tactics, smoke bombs, sneaking, shurikens, disguises, and most importantly back up plans.
You got qualms with me okay, but there is nothing wrong with that character and I did not do anything for cheese or ridiculous. But hey why dont you just close your eyes, it should be easier to ignore.
?
seriously man? the snarky attitude is just uncalled for, especially the comments about my play style.
As was your confrontational attitude throughout the entire thread. My general impression was throughout that you took my statement that the Inquisitor could do up to 200 DPR as a personal challenge and while I wanted to make a point that the class had much more utility and staying power than the Ninja, you somehow constructed this into a "build a PvP character" scenario.
The way you see in the smoke is you move to the edge and take the 20% concealment against attacks (which normally dont work with sneak attack but the feat shadow strike allows it)
Fair enough.
Secondly as for the wand of dispel magic its more for utility than anything it isn't a guarantee, I never said it was.
And you'd really buy it if this wasn't a solo character? Because I really can not see myself waste 21.000 GP on something which eats up actions and doesn't work 75% of the time in a normal Pathfinder combat environment.
Dazzling Display requires you to make an intimidate check by displaying your weapon in some way, which is perfectly capable for ranged weapons to be done even in a smoke cloud. Although he could move outside the smoke cloud (like I suggest) to do that.
So could everybody else. Just saying.
You built an inquisitor that fell short of all the things you said it could do when you used it as a counter arguement for why the ninja isn't overpowered.
No, I didn't. I said, if you care to look back, that a 12th level Inquisitor can do up to 200 DPR per round. Which is completely true, if I'd put my mind to it. As it was, I was off by I think 10 DPR, which is in the margin of error and I was using average damage values.
I am fine with you not agreeing with my view points, but when you fall short of what you said you could do then don't complain about it. I wasn't trying to beat you. I was trying to break the system, because some people will try to do that and the above is not only a possibility it is a likely route that takes almost no forethought (intimidate is a charisma skill which ninjas will excell at)
Again, Dazzling Display isn't an Ninja exclusive feat. BTW, why are people flat-footed again? You know that Yuengling said that people start at 30 feet and not flat-footed, right?
The smoke trick does many things. It creates a good way to hide, it creates an escape route, it allows for sneak if you do it right, it makes you harder to hit, AND most importantly NINJAS ACTUALLY WERE KNOWN FOR DOING THAT.
How exactly does it create an escape route in an arena?
As for with a group, it works great with a group. With disguise as a skill and a high charisma this character could easily play the face, an assassin, a decent damage companion, and be perfectly ninja fun.
True. I mostly was argueing against the Wand of Dispel Magic, which seemed a waste of money ( one quarter of it, which is a lot ). Unless you have no caster, in which case it would be acceptable, although there are tons of better wands to spend your cash on.
In fact I would argue this ninja is close to historically accurate for ninjas in history as they used intimidation tactics, smoke bombs, sneaking, shurikens, disguises, and most importantly back up plans.
Yeah, it's certainly a valid interpretation.
You got qualms with me okay, but there is nothing wrong with that character and I did not do anything for cheese or ridiculous. But hey why dont you just close your eyes, it should be easier to ignore.
<rolls eyes> Okay, then, kid.
I have no issue with a bit of disagreement but this is why I wish the forums here were a little more advanced. Being able to take this kind of disagreement to PM would be nice.
Are you reading this, Paizo?
Yeah, sorry, this spiraled a bit out of control. I'll keep my peace from now on.
me as well
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After running all three UC playtest classes through their paces in Arenas of Doom I wanted to collect all my thoughts in one place. I did that in a thread so that they would be consolidated but Mr. Ross Byers found that inappropriate. So I'll put it here. Maybe people will even see it.
A Note to Developers:
If you have any constructive criticism as to how I can better the Arenas I'd love to hear it. Any improvement I can make in design, presentation, or analysis to improve the end value of the work input would be awesome.
Gunslinger
Lets forget about guns and whatnot. I have issue with them but it was made clear that this playtest isn't about them so we'll leave off that subject.
Roland's biggest problem in his time in the Arena was reloading time and provoking attacks of opportunity. If we're meant to use guns nearly exclusively it would be really nice to have the ability to reload faster and provoke less. On the other hand, if they're meant to switch to melee like the classic musketeer, they should have some abilities which benefit that.
Guns and ammo are cost prohibitive. This is a good thing. It provides a goos barrier to entry so that not every PC in the game has a gun. That's cool. But a crafting and engineering aspect to the class could make each Gunslinger more unique and remove the barrier to entry that shouldn't exist for the class these guns are meant to most benefit.
In the next version of the playtest I hope to see some additional guns but I'd also like to see two essential questions answered. First, do guns within their first range increment, the touch increment bypass DR? This line "Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks" leads to some confusion. Second, are pistols, like hand crossbows, considered light in the off hand? It's somewhat hard to give accurate testing.
Ninja
I like the ninja. In my opinion, the problem that martial classes most have as a campaign goes on is keeping up with the magical effects of their opponents. Even when those enemies aren't wizards, they often have spell like abilities. Thus when enemies are spider climbing, flying, in magical darkness or what have you, the melee class must switch to a back up weapon or wait for a caster ally to even the playing field.
But the Ninja says "Screw you!" to that paradigm and walks on water, walls, and air in his search for asses to kick. That's pretty awesome. I see a lot of people with balance concerns, particularly about Invisible Blade. While it may need to be toned down in duration to 1/2 level, I don't want it to be too watered down. It's really pretty balanced against classes like the Inquisitor and Bard, even its better than the Rogue. That last bit isn't saying much since the Rogue is kind of anemic.
Kato did a ton of damage and could use a ki point in clutch situations to do even more. His defenses were nothing special but once he got to be invisible every bloody fight it didn't matter much.
I got Shadow Clone for him and never used it. I think that was mainly a function of the Arena style, though. In actual play, I can imagine plenty of times when Kato would have a spare standard action. I do, however, find it interesting that it is a standard action instead of the swift action for invisibility. Seems odd in retrospect though I didn't think of it until now.
In any case, Shadow Clone seems to kind of go out the window once the Ninja can use Greater Invisibility. Perhaps make it a swift action? Or add an extra benefit after 10th level to keep it worth its ki point cost. Maybe it could confuse the targeting of spell casters causing a 50% chance that the spell has no effect against the Ninja. This would cause all the duplicates to fizzle as well.
In conclusion, please don't beat the Ninja too much with the nerf stick. Some may call this power creep but I just consider it redressing the balance.
Samurai
The Samurai is a funny beast. I wasn't even going to playtest it but I felt that the Ninja needed a flanking buddy. But I really liked playing Sam and Horace. The Cavalier basis is surprising and has some advantages and some...well thematic oddities.
1. 4 skills per level is nice. One thing that I've noticed recently is how much more well rounded a character is with more skills. You get to participate more out of combat with knowledge and social skills and can be the party's go to guy for swimming or climbing or what have you.
2. The challenge mechanic works really well for my idea of a Samurai with duels and honorable combat and whatnot. I dig it. However, the Ronin's challenge is really weak compared to other Orders. I don't think that's appropriate. Just because they have a bit more roleplaying flexibility doesn't necessitate a mechanical penalty. The Wizard is arguably the most powerful class in the game but has no roleplaying restrictions at all.
3. The horse. Huh. So, I don't really picture Samurai on horses much. Or ever. But this too can be an advantage. One thing I do picture is anime characters on straight ridiculous mounts. Chocobo's, dinosaurs, and all that crap. That could be cool. Plus, it's a different way to play and I enjoyed it quite a bit.
I really liked Resolve and felt it added a valuable bit of toughness to the class. So often, the only classes you really feel can survive the nasty magic being thrown at them are those with silly good saves like the Monk and Paladin and, to a lesser extent, the classes with two good saves especially when the bad save is bolstered by a key stat as it is with Rangers. But Resolve is a big help making the class durable. Especially in conjunction with the Ronin abilities Without Master and Self-Reliant (that hyphen is there on purpose and should be in the document, too).
Finally, I hear some talk about trying to remove the shield proficiency from the Samurai. I think that's trying too hard at a historical context that doesn't exist in Golarion. If you don't think your Samurai should use a shield don't. But don't take options away from everyone else.
In conclusion, please don't beat the Ninja too much with the nerf stick. Some may call this power creep but I just consider it redressing the balance.
Totally agree. Awesome class, I'd wish all martial classes would be this good and self-sufficient at the higher levels.
His defenses were nothing special but once he got to be invisible every bloody fight it didn't matter much.
What about enemies that can see invisibility? If he relies too much on being invisible, he end up useless in certain battles. (Especially in higher levels)
Add to that that certain enemies are immune to sneak attack, the ninja might end up a liabality on bit more often than he should. Or not?
His defenses were nothing special but once he got to be invisible every bloody fight it didn't matter much.
What about enemies that can see invisibility? If he relies too much on being invisible, he end up useless in certain battles. (Especially in higher levels)
Add to that that certain enemies are immune to sneak attack, the ninja might end up a liabality on bit more often than he should. Or not?
You could always use the hide in the smoke bomb trick lol
I also agree with Yuengling about it not needing to be nerfed alot I just hope the rogues gets his bone too.
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Totally agree. Awesome class, I'd wish all martial classes would be this good and self-sufficient at the higher levels.
Yeah, self-sufficiency. That is the best way to put it. Compared to all the pure martial classes (and in some respects the Ranger as well), the Ninja can do a lot with what he has. That's nice.
What about enemies that can see invisibility? If he relies too much on being invisible, he end up useless in certain battles. (Especially in higher levels)
Add to that that certain enemies are immune to sneak attack, the ninja might end up a liabality on bit more often than he should. Or not?
The Ninja didn't have bad AC or saves. They weren't as high as a Dex based Ninja might have been, but his damage was much better.
Not that many enemies can see invisibility or have Blindsight. Saying that those that do are a major weakness for the Ninja is pretty much like saying that Mages are weak against the few things immune to magic or certain types of magic. Yeah, it happens. You deal with it and move on.
Otherwise, some have blind sense which is only partially helpful and some can cast See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge but that at least costs them actions.
In any case, the Ninja can always flank when Invisibility doesn't work. That just makes him a Rogue.
As you can see in the fight against the Water Elemental, even when the Ninja can't Sneak Attack, when you've built him with Strength in mind he still does pretty good damage. He was able to use Greater Invisibility in that case to ensure he hit much more frequently with his last iterative and keep his damage reasonably high.