going to have an opportunity to do some play testing tomorrow, any areas you would like checked out in particular, certain lvls, deeds, ect...?
Anything you want really. I would like some feedback for mid to high levels if you'll be playing around that level. I'm 90% certain that the class will feel the strongest at level 1-2, which I'm fine with, as their damage with Called Shot (Head) resembles melee DPS, but due to their inability to stack static damage.
Currently I think muskets/rifles are best for the most direct damage, and I think revolvers will be the favored weapon of the full-attack/critical hit gunslinger, and I think Shotguns are just fun (and for those wanting to "melee" with guns).
Running the math, their damage should be about on par with fighters at most levels (a little less actually), but I'm concerned that their grit recovery might not be high enough at higher levels. Fortunately I'll be rolling an 11th level gunslinger for a friend's game this saturday, and I'll get to try and break the hell out of it.
In any case, just have fun with it. ^-^
I'll get to try and break the hell out of it.
I feel this is likely the best course of action.
I do have to say though the idea of a crit build with guns is adequately terrifying. I'm fairly certain if I built a crit-based gunslinger my DM would hit me and is the sole reason I didn't take improved crit in that earlier lvl 8 gunslinger I posted.
So with that said... Dual revolvers with improved crit, 15-20/x3 weapons.
Someone playtest that.
Great update. The only thing I think you should note is that "Human Shield" only works when you are in control of the grapple. It seems like that's the intention (it would be hard to use someone as a human shield if they've got you in a headlock), though I could be wrong.
I'll be throwing together a crit-based, called-shotting level 10 gunslinger for my friend's game. Hopefully it works out.
-The Beast
EDIT 1: I adore Lookout Man. It's just stuffed with flavor.
EDIT 2: I think the term "Long-Guns" should be changed to "Longarms." It's more accurate to life and rolls of the tongue.
I'll get to try and break the hell out of it.
I feel this is likely the best course of action.
I do have to say though the idea of a crit build with guns is adequately terrifying. I'm fairly certain if I built a crit-based gunslinger my DM would hit me and is the sole reason I didn't take improved crit in that earlier lvl 8 gunslinger I posted.
So with that said... Dual revolvers with improved crit, 15-20/x3 weapons.
Someone playtest that.
Heh, I ran the math. It's not terrible, actually. If you've got Improved Critical and Sniper Shot, you can hit a critical threat of 12-20/x3, or 40% threat. At 8th level (the absolute earliest this can be achieved by a gunslinger 7 / Fighter 1) you should be able to afford a +2 revolver and have Sniper Shot and Double Action, which can give you 3d8+24 on a critical with Deadly Aim and an extra 1d8+8 from Double Action, or an average of 50 damage on a critical hit on your double action shot, and 37.5 on criticals without it, and 1d8+8 on non-critical hits.
This means that if you're two weapon fighting, rapid shot, and using deadly aim, you should have the following attack routine (assuming you're focusing entirely on Dexterity during your level ups):
+12/+12/+12/+8 at 2d8+17/1d8+9/1d8+9/1d8+9; counting a +8 BAB, +7 Dexterity, +2 weapon, +1 weapon focus, +1 point blank shot.
That's an average of 66.5 damage if all of them hit.
An average of 175.5 if every attack criticals in the routine, but our % chance to threaten a critical means at the very least we'll lose 60% of this damage to non-criticals; without counting the amount that we don't confirm; so it'd be more like 70.2 average.
This post summarizes what an 8th level fighter is capable of with a bow; but here is the relevant information:
Adult Black Dragon is CR 11.
It's an epic encounter for a group at level 8.
At level 8, an archery based Fighter can support the following attack routine with his bow: +16/+16/+16/+11, with a damage of 2d8+18/1d8+9/1d8+9/1d8+9 without Deadly Aim. Now if he uses Deadly Aim, his accuracy drops to +13/+13/+13/+8, but his damage rises to 2d8+50/1d8+25/1d8+25/1d8+25, so assuming you hit with only 1 of them, it could punch strait through the dragon's DR 10/adamantine stoneskin and deal more damage than the single gun would.Also, the fighter can carry a few arrows of dragonbane at a cost of 160 gp each, which increase the attack and damage of his bow by +2/+2 and +2d6, making his attack routine something like this: +15/+15/+15/+10 and 2d8+54+2d6/1d8+27+2d6/1d8+27+2d6/1d8+27+2d6.
Not assuming criticals or bane arrows, the fighter has the following average damage if all attacks hit: 147.5 damage without critical hits, and god forbid you score a critical (that'd be +100 damage per critical).
On the flip side, if you have Blinding Shots, every critical with your gun will generate 1 grit, so you could generate tons of grit this way, allowing a revolver slinger to slip seemlessly from full-attacking to popping desperado and burst fire.
EDIT:
Great update. The only thing I think you should note is that "Human Shield" only works when you are in control of the grapple. It seems like that's the intention (it would be hard to use someone as a human shield if they've got you in a headlock), though I could be wrong.
I'll be throwing together a crit-based, called-shotting level 10 gunslinger for my friend's game. Hopefully it works out.
-The Beast
EDIT 1: I adore Lookout Man. It's just stuffed with flavor.
EDIT 2: I think the term "Long-Guns" should be changed to "Longarms." It's more accurate to life and rolls of the tongue.
Consider human shield and long-guns changed in version 1.1.9. ^-^
actually you may need to look at the extra grit feat plus shotgun nightmare, as my gm said that could really be a nightmare.
Indeed. Shotgun Nightmare was balanced around the idea that you would only have 2 + 1/2 level grit, making the average damage of a shotgun blast at 1st-3rd level about 13.5 damage, which is comparable to someone with a good strength score wielding a 2 handed weapon (a greatsword at 2d6+6 is an average of about 12.5 damage), only you'd have to reload; and you're in light armor by default, so it was pretty good.
Currently, you could indeed, if human, sport a 6d6 shotgun nightmare at 1st level with a blunderbuss, which is about 21 average damage. While this wouldn't bother me in my games (since really nothing at that level is gonna survive 13 damage, so excess damage is wasted) that isn't something I'd like to allow. I will fix it in the next version.
Thank you for drawing it to my attention, Taeko.
Edit: Ok, so I adjusted the effect to make it based on gunslinger level instead of the amount of grit you have remaining. This was one of the reasons I hadn't actually intended to have an extra grit feat in the beginning, but this should work. Note that it begins at +1d6, and increases by +1d6 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th, bringing the final damage to 9d6 damage at 20th, which is an average of 31.5 damage per shot.
Also eagle eye + sniper shot + hand cannon
Actually, that's intentional. You can't get critical hits with hand cannons because it turns the attack into an AoE with a Reflex save, so by combining those abilities you amount to a series of low-powered but mid-ranged bursts.
This is one of the "wow, that was cool" things that the gunslinger can do, but in this case the damage is pretty mild (especially if they make their save). At 9th level (the earliest you could have eagle eye, sniper shot, and hand cannon at the same time), your damage with your scattergun and shotgun nightmare will be about 6d6+3 with about 3 shots, or 24 damage in a 90 ft cone, and 12 damage on a successful save. So while the gunslinger unleashes a truly silly-large explosion from a scattergun while using all of these; by that point you're at least 9th level and doing things that normal people consider impossible three times before breakfast.
Edit: Also damage reduction, if any, applies to the hand cannon blasts as normal, since they are weapon damage.
critical chance isn't supposed to go past 15-20, being able to get 12-20/x3 is overdoing it
critical chance isn't supposed to go past 15-20, being able to get 12-20/x3 is overdoing it
Only the gunslinger can get their guns to critical 12-20, while otherwise it caps at 15-20. That being said, it only overdoes it if the math doesn't check out, and thus far the math is looking pretty solid. :P
2d8+18/1d8+9/1d8+9/1d8+9
2d8+17/1d8+9/1d8+9/1d8+9
Not much different and the way better critical chance ups the gunslingers like crazy, the only thing keeping them even is the to hit, and since I don't know where you got that fighter I don't know why his is so much higher
Building my level 10, and hit a couple snags.
1: When choosing called shot, do you get access to any called shot, or do you choose one? It would seem that this having all of them is intended, as only being able to hit arms seems a little silly.
2: Headshot should probably note that the extra damage is precision damage. Otherwise you run into the same problem that you originally ran into with deadeye shot and criticals.
Just noting little things as I go over it again. Great work!
-The Beast
8th Level Human Fighter, 15 pb
Starting stats = 18, 15, 12, 10, 12, 7.
Stats at level 4: +1 Strength, stats at level 8 +1 Strength.
Wealth = 33,000 gp
Items: lesser bracers of archery (5,000 gp), +2 composite longbow (+6 strength)(9,000 gp), cloak of resistance +2 (4,000 gp), efficient quiver x3 (5,400 gp), belt of strength +2 (4,000 gp), gloves of dexterity +2 (4,000 gp), breastplate (200 gp), a few hundred arrows, including some silver and cold iron arrows.
Total Abilities: Str 22, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7.
Feats: Point Blank Shot (1), Rapid Shot (B), Precise Shot (B), Weapon Focus (Longbow) (B), Deadly Aim (3), Weapon Specialization (Longbow) (B), Iron Will (5), Manyshot (B), Iron Will (7), Toughness (B).
Weapon Training (Bows) +1 hit/+1 damage.
Combat buff spell of choice haste.
Let's count!
+8/+3 from base attack.
+6/+6/+1 from Rapid Shot.
+3/+3/-2 from Deadly Aim.
Now we add modifiers.
We have +1 to hit from Weapon Focus.
We have +1 to hit from Weapon Training.
We have +3 to hit from Dexterity.
We have +1 to hit from Bracers of Archery, Lesser.
We have +2 to hit from +2 Weapon Enhancement.
We have +1 to hit from Haste.
So our total is...
+12/+12/+12/+7 or +13/+13/+13/+8 with Point Blank Shot.
Our damage is: 2d8+32/1d8+16/1d8+16/1d8+16, average 102.5 damage if all hit, but we'll assume the first three can hit, but the last one will miss, which would bring it to the average of 82 damage, which is more than the 70-ish damage from revolver criticals, and this is without getting a critical with the bow.
Sorry it took so long. It's 4:02am, and my brain's not working as fast as it really should be. ^.^"
Edit: The original also was under the assumption that he was optimized to the hilt (such as an orcish archer), with cat's grace for an extra +2 to hit, and I can't remember all the modifiers, but this one is simpler, and everything's pretty much laid out; so I shouldn't have missed or overlooked anything.
You should find everything in order.
Building my level 10, and hit a couple snags.
1: When choosing called shot, do you get access to any called shot, or do you choose one? It would seem that this having all of them is intended, as only being able to hit arms seems a little silly.
2: Headshot should probably note that the extra damage is precision damage. Otherwise you run into the same problem that you originally ran into with deadeye shot and criticals.
Just noting little things as I go over it again. Great work!
-The Beast
You do get all of them.
And headshot will be noted as precision damage in the next posted document, which is...Now! Gunslinger v1.2.0
Had to make some adjustments and also a major fix. Seems v1.1.8 apparently was missing Rolling Shot, which is a pretty huge error. It has been returned properly in this version, shotgun nightmare repaired, headshot made precision damage.
Ok, 4:09am, I'm going to bed before I die. lol
thanks for that
alright so grabbing the same feats (except manyshot) but having a much higher dex (doesn't need strength), shouldn't the gunslinger have a better to hit?
Wait can your gunslinger multiclass with fighter? I am having trouble opening the document...
It keeps getting better, but some small things:
The new weapon training feats are entering the realms of a system modification. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but shouldn't they go in a sidebar or something?
If this really is turning into a miniature sourcebook, rangers really need a firearms fighting style. That would be awesome.
I'm having balance concerns about the guns again, but slightly different ones this time. Once you can afford the high capacity guns, they seem far, far ahead of the other simple weapons. Even if there were no quick-loaders, they would still be the best. I'm concerned that they'll make it as though crossbows just don't exist after a certain point.
Would you argue that the repeating crossbows would make balanced simple weapons? I know they make terrible exotic ones, but simple seems a bit much.
Spotted a typo. You're missing an asterisk on the damage for small blunderbusses.
I think the Gunslinger homebrew needs to be offloaded to its own thread.
I used to think so, but Erik et all are watching this thread, and are interested in the ideas.
Kudos Ashiel :)
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The Problem: Guns are not an archtype, they are a tool. There is no reason that every class should be unable to wield guns without dipping into gunslinger, any more than bows should be useless without dipping into "Archer" or swords should be useless without dipping into "Swordsman". That's just foolish
This is kind of the reason I think a Gunslinger is out of place, it shouldn't be someone that "uses a gun well" but rather something else...
Just sayin, I'm totally in the pro-Gun Kata group.
like this. Someone that has monk-like other abilities that just happens to use a gun. I'm more a fan of the Gunslinger being able to use guns while avoiding attacks or using the guns to deflect attacks while gaining no benefit (or very little) at actually shooting the guns.
12-20/x3 crit?
+12/+12/+12/+8 at 2d8+17/1d8+9/1d8+9/1d8+9; counting a +8 BAB, +7 Dexterity, +2 weapon, +1 weapon focus, +1 point blank shot.That's an average of 66.5 damage if all of them hit.
An average of 175.5 if every attack criticals in the route
I'm very much against the concept of mixing threat and multipliers (the 12-20/x3 deal)
8th level AC = 21 Bestiary p291
I assume you mean +12/+12/+12/+7?
Point Blank <30' with crits DPR is:
.60*(9+17)+.45*.60*2*(9+17)+2*.60*(4.5+9)+2*.45*.60*2*(4.5+9)+.35*(4.5+9)+. 35*.35*2*(4.5+9)
68.38 DPR
At level 8, an archery based Fighter can support the following attack routine with his bow: +16/+16/+16/+11, with a damage of 2d8+18/1d8+9/1d8+9/1d8+9 without Deadly Aim. Now if he uses Deadly Aim, his accuracy drops to +13/+13/+13/+8, but his damage rises to 2d8+50/1d8+25/1d8+25/1d8+25, so assuming you hit with only 1 of them, it could punch strait through the dragon's DR 10/adamantine stoneskin and deal more damage than the single gun would.
Your Longbow fighter (who may not have been as optimized as possible) would be:
.65*(9+50)+.1*.65*2*(9+50)+2*.65*(4.5+25)+2*.1*.65*2*(4.5+9)+.40*(4.5+9)+.1 *.40*2*(4.5+9)93.77 DPR
thanks for that
alright so grabbing the same feats (except manyshot) but having a much higher dex (doesn't need strength), shouldn't the gunslinger have a better to hit?
Wait can your gunslinger multiclass with fighter? I am having trouble opening the document...
Yes, it can multiclass with fighter. It was written to be a base class, since the fighter archtype didn't really seem to be doing it justice; so it's more like an alchemist or the like.
It keeps getting better, but some small things:
The new weapon training feats are entering the realms of a system modification. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but shouldn't they go in a sidebar or something?
Well it's all non-official, optional material, but it seemed like a good idea since the weapon proficiency feats for anything but exotic weapons are useless. Honestly, if you were going to spend a feat to learn to use a weapon, why would you choose a battle-axe when you could use a waraxe? Why a longsword when you could use a bastard sword?
If this really is turning into a miniature sourcebook, rangers really need a firearms fighting style. That would be awesome.
I'll try to get to that soonish. :)
I'm having balance concerns about the guns again, but slightly different ones this time. Once you can afford the high capacity guns, they seem far, far ahead of the other simple weapons. Even if there were no quick-loaders, they would still be the best. I'm concerned that they'll make it as though crossbows just don't exist after a certain point.
Would you argue that the repeating crossbows would make balanced simple weapons? I know they make terrible exotic ones, but simple seems a bit much.Spotted a typo. You're missing an asterisk on the damage for small blunderbusses.
Thanks. Fixed the typo. Also realized that when I re-wrote the descriptions of the weapons, I left out the part where shotgun-class weapons lose damage at range, so I added that part back in.
As for the pistols, muskets, and likely blunderbuss, they aren't supposed to be balanced with the revolver, rifle, and scatterguns. They're the common firearms. I explained the thought process behind these in this post.
thanks for that
alright so grabbing the same feats (except manyshot) but having a much higher dex (doesn't need strength), shouldn't the gunslinger have a better to hit?
Wait can your gunslinger multiclass with fighter? I am having trouble opening the document...
The gunslinger could focus more heavily in Dexterity, but pumping a single ability score is more difficult than pumping multiple scores a bit (increased point-buy costs, exponential +enhancement costs, etc), and you're still limited by how much you can hit by 20th.
Assuming you begin with an 18+2 racial (17 out of 15 pb) and begin with a 20, and then put all your stat bumps into Dexterity (25 at 20th), and then get a +5 inherent, and a +6 magic item, you could hit a 36 which is a +13.
A fighter beginning with a 15 can reach 26 with a +5 inherent and +6 magic item, which is a +8, but then the Fighter receives a +5 from Weapon Training, and most likely a +2 from Weapon Focus, bringing his bonus to hit to about +13-15, while still being about to hit strength scores in excess of 30, allowing him to pump upwards to +10-12 damage per shot from Strength.
Otherwise, yes, the Gunslinger probably will have higher accuracy but lower damage throughout most levels.
*Very awesome math details*
Thank you James. I posted a simplified and less powerful version of the fighter here.
His minimum damage per hit is 17, or 38 with Manyshot, with 20.5 and 45 average damage respectively, and he should hit 65% of the time on the first 3 attacks, and 40% on the 4th, bring his average damage somewhere around 27, 12, 12, and 8 or 59 damage per round; assuming there are no critical hits (which would add 2d8+32 on any given critical).
The gunslinger's damage is 1d8+8 (assuming a +2 revolver and Deadly Aim), and assumes that she's invested about 16,700 gp into her weapons out of her 33,000 gp allotment, which seems fair to me.
Against the same opponent, she'll have the same chance to hit buffed with haste, so her attack routine will be +13/+13/+13/+13/+8 (counting haste) at 2d8+16/1d8+8/1d8+8/1d8+8/1d8+8. Now my math may be wrong, so stop me if it is, but here's how I see it coming out.
She has a 65% chance to hit on the first 4 attacks, and a 40% on the last, a 40% chance to threaten a critical, and a 65 or 40% chance to confirm it, and each critical effectively equals an extra pair of hits; so I'm seeing an average damage of 42.5, and 82.21 assuming criticals and critical confirmation rolls; and you must be a Gunslinger 7/Fighter 1 to pull this off at 8th level, otherwise you'd have to be 9th level, minimum, to take Improved Critical (Handguns).
That being said, it's actually the Fighter which is making me think I should adjust them to 18-20/x2, or create a legendary deed that grants the x3, because the only way I'm seeing this as coming out imbalanced is with the addition of Fighter levels. At mid-high levels, a Fighter stacks so, so very much more static damage than you can hope to reach on guns, but currently you could get a Gunslinger 6/Fighter 14 build that would be capable of supporting a +3 weapon training, and a +4 from greater specialization, and that would indeed break the hells out of it.
I would like to keep the critical build option, however, as there have been no reliable critical builds since 3E, and it's something the game has been missing for a very long time.
As always, feedback is appreciated.
nice to see the update, only question is for the new shotgun nightmare. originally it got a dmg bump every 2 levels since it was half grit; now though its a dmg bump every four levels. just wondering why you decided to change the dmg progression.
The progression is the same, but it's no longer based on remaining grit. It was 1/2 remaining grit, which actually is +1d6 / 4 levels (every 4 levels was +2 grit, so that would be +1d6). On the flip side, this method is much more user friendly, I think.
Ashiel, understood your point about the way the guns balance against each other and I absolutely agree with you there. The way you have the guns balanced against each other is right.
My concern was about how the advanced guns compare against the other simple weapons. Once somebody can afford a rifle, they upgrade from a musket, and that's fine, but they would also want to upgrade from a crossbow to a rifle, perhaps even from a melee weapon to a scatter-gun.
I don't think all simple weapon options should converge.
I also think that if it's fair to have a rifle as a simple weapon, it's fair to downgrade the repeating crossbows to simple status too.
As for the weapon proficiency feats, yeah, I agree they're good. Hell, I'd use them.
Ashiel, understood your point about the way the guns balance against each other and I absolutely agree with you there. The way you have the guns balanced against each other is right.
My concern was about how the advanced guns compare against the other simple weapons. Once somebody can afford a rifle, they upgrade from a musket, and that's fine, but they would also want to upgrade from a crossbow to a rifle, perhaps even from a melee weapon to a scatter-gun.
I don't think all simple weapon options should converge.
I also think that if it's fair to have a rifle as a simple weapon, it's fair to downgrade the repeating crossbows to simple status too.
As I noted earlier in the thread, the damage on a heavy crossbow should probably be 2d6, since 1d8 increased by 1 size is 2d6, but perhaps back in the day, they were afraid that an average of 7 damage was too good, even though it has a full-round reload time and couldn't apply damage bonuses. However, we can tell from experience and test this is not the case. Also, repeating crossbows are one of the absolute worst weapons you can get. Having them cost a feat is horrible (even with a strength penalty, the longbow is better), and you still need to invest 1-2 other feats (rapid reload and that other crossbow-specific feat) to reload it promptly. Yes, the repeating heavy crossbow really should be a simple weapon.
Basically, crossbows are already useless. Adding guns won't change that. Classes that get proficiency with crossbows don't use them if they can help it (rogues will use shortbows, for example), and so forth. Crossbows are already something of the red-headed weapon, because they serve no use to PCs.
It's true that a sorcerer, for example, could afford a rifle relatively early in her career, at the cost of 300 gp (about 6 heavy crossbows), and could be entirely happy with shooting it. She'd get 5 shots before she had to spend a full-round to reload; but that's not really a problem, because she's invested 300-600 gp into something that gives her an average of 7 damage when she's not casting, and she still has to hit with it.
NPCs cannot afford them. A 1st level warrior can afford a heavy crossbow and a club or staff out of their 50gp allotment. NPCs have to be 3rd level before they could afford a non-masterwork rifle or scattergun, which is enough to keep them rare throughout most of the world. They're just too expensive.
Plus (and I think people forget about this one) guns are loud. If you have any desire to remain hidden, or not alert people to your presence, guns are pretty much your worst option for doing so. In one of my recent playtest games, the rest of the party asked the gunslinger to not fire a shot until they gave the signal or word of the party had already gotten ahead of them; which resulted in her using a crossbow while the group closed in on the enemies.
The only people who can make crossbows worth using are people who won't use crossbows (IE - warrior classes), because of the downsides to crossbows. I considered the cost vs investment when pricing the weapons, so as simple weapons, they're good, but they're not amazing. Perhaps I would ask, how many times have you seen a heavy crossbow or even a repeating crossbow used past 3rd level?
I myself have generally seen nobody bother with a repeating crossbow, and only light crossbows bothered with if they planned to make use of them regularly (wasting a full-round is bad even for spellcasters who want to conserve spells).
As for the weapon proficiency feats, yeah, I agree they're good. Hell, I'd use them.
Gracias. lol
Also...
I've had my brother run mock-battles with a full-out revolver crit-miester, at Gunslinger 6/Fighter 5, and I must say that it was way over the top. The plan was to gauge effectiveness compared to a strait fighter bowman vs four distinct CR 11 creatures of different strengths and weaknesses, but we stopped the test after the very first (we were going in alphabetical order, and the first was an adult black dragon). The critical focused gunslinger/fighter was noticeably better than the strait fighter; and would be better against the subsequent lower AC creatures; and it was by everything we could see, resulting in the ability to stack so much static damage.
Now I was pushing the build to optimize the critical factor, but I'm looking for the highest points, and this was a bit too high. I'm probably going to promote Sniper Shot to a Legendary deed, which would prevent it from being obtained until 15th level, making it far more difficult to stack static damage and get all the proper feats when desired; so I'm going to try again soonish, with these adjustments, and then see how it works out.
At first glance, a Gunslinger 15/Fighter 5 seems far, far less impressive than a gunslinger 6/Fighter 14; as they'd only be able to stack up to +8 static damage (+5 weapon, +1 weapon training, +2 specialization), vs the +25-28 static damage a longbowman can get by that level. So I'll do some more tests and then see if I need to modify the core mechanics some more (weapons, gunslingers, etc).
More later.
Gaming with my level 10 right now. Just read the "sniper shot to legendary" note. So...since I'm currently switching it out...can a trick shot bullet be bounced off an ally in full plate?
Gaming with my level 10 right now. Just read the "sniper shot to legendary" note. So...since I'm currently switching it out...can a trick shot bullet be bounced off an ally in full plate?
Well is specifies an object that could grant you cover and has a hardness of 5 or better. If you had asked about a tower shield (being used as cover), the answer would be 100% yes. Creatures however can provide soft-cover (still cover) and can indeed be wearing armor with a hardness of 5 or better, but...
Since it specifies an object, the simplest answer is no (unless they were using a tower shield to create cover, in which case you can target the shield itself. However, your GM may rule differently based on "rule of cool", but technically no; you'd need a tower shield to bank shots off a creature (you're otherwise limited to walls, ceilings, floors, and debris such as overturned tables, carts, etc).
Ok, I was nervous about those crits and multiclassing fighter, but I wasn't going to say anything because you had all the math there and I just had a funny feeling.
I can see everything you say about the weapons working out nicely, but if your working on the basis that things should be that way, I'd stick the increased damage and simple weapon status in the document. Maybe as an optional rule or something.
Just keep doing what you are doing. I will make sure Stephen is aware of this thread, your build, and the various issues raised in this thread.
And for the record I have been lurking on this thread for a long time. A busy work schedule, a sick wife, and a trip out of town have just slowed me down when it comes to responding. I’ve made it a point to read every single post, and I just haven’t managed the trick of reading something, and writing something else at the same time.
I'm well aware of the issues you brought up and suspected a good number of them would be so when we released this playtest document. I had no delusions this was a finished class. I had questions, and through playtest I’ve been able to answer most of them…which will benefit the class in the end.
I'm actually enjoying my Saturday morning coffee reading Asheil's newest version of the class. While I think we many agree to disagree with some things in the final analysis, I've found the various versions of the document an interesting read. Thank you, Asheil.
Hopefully I can talk Jason into a second round of gunslinger playtest (although I think that should be easy), there has been a number of interesting ideas offered out there (I'm a fan of the pickle...though I'm not sure which flavor of pickle we will see in the end) and I've been enlightened by this threads commentary and exploration of the gunslinger.
Hey, but that's what a playtest is all about, right?
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I"m rather new to this smack me if I missed this, or there is reason for avoiding it, but I think that there should be something for when musket isn't big enough.
My suggestion it the Handheld Mortar, a weapon that fires larger and heavier (1/4 , 1/2 , 1 lb I'm not sure how much would balance it best) rounds then your standard firearm. A mortar would be expensive to buy because of the and extra bracing required to protect the shooter. Even with the extra bracing it can only get a range of 60 feet with the largest power charge recommended.The only other thing that I can think of at the moment is that to fire without getting knocked off your feet would be to "brace" the shot during your movement
Not that it isn't an interesting concept, but I'd have to say we stick to what we have now. A Hand-Cannon of that magnitude just seems as if it'd come off slightly overpowered. Sure, the knockback seems like an equalizer, but you're still launching a mortar round effectively.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
Feel free to keep being a free thinker though. Definitely don't let me discourage you. Also, if you feel like you want it in your games, then by all means, draw something up and throw it into your game.
I love Stephen and the rest of the guys at Paizo, but after three playtests with the Gunslinger, I'm done. I like it in certain aspects, but like Stephen said, its a playtest for a reason. The Alpha is done for me.
-To Stephen and the rest of the Paizo Staff-
I have the utmost faith in you, so take none of this to heart. I know when Ultimate Combat ships, you guys will have made it into something I can stand. Nothing but gamer love for you guys.
Wow, after 4 days of being gone, it seems that this post got even MORE win points in it, plus two revisions. I haven't read any of it yet, but I'm going to after this post, so feedback is going to be on the way!
I know that this part is going to be a bit silly, but I would like to present some more grit ideas that I thought up of, whether or not anyone thinks that these are good/fair, by all means they're open to use. I'm just an ideas guy
Ambidextrous The gunslinger gains the Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat even if she doesn't meet the prerequisites. In addition, she may spend 1 grit to reduce the penalty by -2 to a minimum of 0 for one round.
Lucky Shot As a standard action, the gunslinger gains the favor of luck on her side as she goes for a shot. When she expends 2 grit points, the bullet gain a +5 bonus to attack rolls and a +1 to damage. If she expends another grit point, the bonus is raised to +10 to attack rolls and +3 to damage rolls. This deed requires that she still has two grit remaining. Additionially, this deed can only be used once per round. This deed is considered a Greater Deed.
Lady Luck As a full action, the gunslinger gains the presence of the goddess of luck on her side to aid her in a time of desperate need. When she expends 4 grit, the bullet becomes infused with enough of the goddess' power that it becomes a critical threat automatically, despite what the gunslinger rolled as an attack roll. Additionially, if she expends another 2 grit, the bullet is infused with a +5 bonus to hit the critically threatened target. This deed requires that the gunslinger still has at least four grit remaining. Additionially, this deed can only be used once per round. This deed is considered a Legendary Deed.
Here's some changes/additions that i think would help the Gunslinger.
Skills: The gunslinger’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge (Local), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Reliability: At 3rd level (or whatever level is best) gunslinger’s knowledge of his firearm’s nuances is such that it is less likely to jam than other firearms. It reduces the misfire value of his firearm by 1 (minimum 1). This reduction occurs after any increases are calculated for firing with the broken condition, or for any other effect that may increase the misfire value of a firearm.
Firearm Combat Style Feat (Ex): At 2nd level, a gunslinger must select one of three firearm combat styles to pursue: musketeer, buccaneer, or pistoleer. The gunslinger’s expertise manifests in the form of bonus feats at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.
He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
If the gunslinger selects musketeer, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot. At 6th level, he adds Improved Precise Shot and Vital Strike to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting and Improved Vital Strike to the list.
If the gunslinger selects buccaneer, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Dazzling Display, Point-Blank Shot, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Deadly Stroke to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Penetrating Strike to the list.
If the gunslinger selects pistoleer, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Point-Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Many Shot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Shot on the Run to the list.
The benefits of the gunslinger’s chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his firearm combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a gunslinger selects a firearm combat style, it cannot be changed.
I had thought about using some of these feats in the styles (Critical Focus, Bleeding Critical, Crippling Critical, Rapid Reload, Crossbow Master*, and Point-Blank Master*), but the ones I chose seemed the most versatile. These can be selected as regular feats. *APG
Thats all for now. Working on a few other things people have mentioned in the threads. Like a way for gunslingers to craft premade cartridges (paper tubes with powder and ball ready to go) based on the Alchemist's bomb/extract feature, and a bonus to his crafting of guns, blackpowder, shot, cartridges called Ballistics, which is based on an Alchemist's Alchemy feature. we'll see if I can work it out or not.
lvl 5 Ashiel Homebrew + lvl 6 Ninja = sniper pirate ninja. Oh, the paradox of duality. or lock and load, lightning reload, signature deed (lightning reload) for dual wielding ninja gunfu!
I think Stephen killed this thread...
Quick! Someone propose something radical and unlikeable so we can all start talking about it again!
[sarcasm]THE GUNSLINGER SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO BE LAWFUL GOOD AND GET A BONUS 5D10 DAMAGE AT LEVEL 1 ON ALL ATTACK ROLLS EVEN WITHOUT GUNS 'CUZ THEY'RE LIKE JEDIS! Also spells.[/sarcasm]
Discuss.
-The Beast
Here you go!
Breech Loader (Musket): A gunslinger can fire in rapid succession without reloading. This innovation allows the gunslinger to load up to eight bullets into her musket, allowing her to make two full attacks before having to reload her firearm. The gunslinger must have the Bullet innovation to select this innovation.
Bullet: A gunslinger has developed a far more permanent process by which she can greatly increase her reloading speed and efficiency. The gunslinger can create prefabricated bullets using reusable metal sleeves packed with black powder and a slug contained within. These bullets improve the gunslinger’s reloading action by one–a standard action to a move action, a move action to a swift action, and a swift action to a free action. The gunslinger can create a number of bullets per day equal to her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must have the Cartridge innovation and must be at least 12th level to select this innovation. The effects of the Bullet innovation stack with those of the Cartridge innovation.
Cartridge: A gunslinger has developed a process by which she can increase her reloading speed and efficiency. The gunslinger can create prefabricated cartridges with black powder and shot contained within. These cartridges improve the gunslinger’s reloading action by one–a standard action to a move action, a move action to a swift action, and a swift action to a free action. The gunslinger can create a number of cartridges per day equal to her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this innovation.
Efficacious Dose: Once per day, the gunslinger can enhance the efficacy of a single dose of black powder, in effect creating three doses from one. Doing so costs a number of gp equal to one-half of a single dose of black powder. A dose of black powder so enhanced, including any of the subsequently created doses, cannot be cannot be enhanced again. A gunslinger must be at least 6th level before selecting this innovation.
Greater Shot: A gunslinger’s shot becomes even more deadly. A greater shot causes and additional +2d6 damage. The gunslinger can create a number of greater shot per day equal to ½ her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must have the Improved Shot innovation to take this innovation. This innovation supersedes Improved Shot.
Improved Shot: A gunslinger’s shot becomes more deadly. An improved shot causes and additional +1d6 damage. The gunslinger can create a number of improved shot per day equal to ½ her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier.
Reliability: A gunslinger’s knowledge of his firearm’s nuances is such that it is less likely to jam than other firearms. This innovation reduces the misfire value of his firearm by 1 (minimum 1). This reduction occurs after any increases are calculated for firing with the broken condition, or for any other effect that may increase the misfire value of a firearm. A gunslinger must be at least 4th level before selecting this innovation.
Revolver (Pistol): A gunslinger can fire her pistol in rapid succession without reloading. This innovation allows the gunslinger to load up to four bullets into her pistol, allowing her to make a single full attack before having to reload her firearm. The gunslinger must have the Bullet innovation to select this innovation.
Rifled Barrel and Shot: A gunslinger greatly increases the range of her firearm. The gunslinger has grooved both her barrel and her shot, effectively doubling the firearm’s range. In addition, the gunslinger gains a +2 competence bonus on all attack rolls with her firearm. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this innovation. The gunslinger must be at least 8th level to select this innovation.
Silencer: A gunslinger can silence the discharge of her firearm. Those within 60 feet of the gunslinger when she discharges her firearm must make a Perception check against a DC equal to 15 + the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier to hear it. Those who fail the check, and those for than 60 feet away do not hear the discharge.
Steadfastness: A gunslinger’s knowledge of his firearm’s nuances is such that it is far less likely to jam than other firearms. This innovation reduces the misfire value of his firearm by 2 (minimum 0). This reduction occurs after any increases are calculated for firing with the broken condition, or for any other effect that may increase the misfire value of a firearm. A gunslinger must be at least 8th level before selecting this innovation. This innovation supersedes the Reliability innovation.
These are just some quick ideas.
I have also included the following proposed changes for the Gunslinger. Some of which have been mentioned here or other threads.
1) add Perception and Survival to the gunslinger skills
2) As a first level class feature
Ballistics (Ex): Gunslingers are not only expert marksmen, they are also skilled at crafting and enhancing the use of black powder and firearms. At 3rd level, when using Craft (firearms) to create black powder or construct, repair, or improve a firearm, a gunslinger gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (firearm) check. In addition, a gunslinger can use Craft (firearm) to identify firearm-related magical items (such as magical sights, related weapon abilities, etc.), as if he were using detect magic. He must hold the item and study it for 3 rounds to make such a check.
3) Italicized changes to the following Grit description paragraph.
At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains ½ her gunslinger level + her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) in grit points. Grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than ½ the gunslinger’s level + her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A gunslinger spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below) and regains grit in the following ways.
4) Following changes/additions to the Deeds section
Starting at 1st level, a gunslinger gains one deed. She gains an additional deed for every 2 levels of gunslinger attained after 2nd level. A gunslinger cannot select an individual talent more than once, unless stated otherwise. The following is the list of base gunslinger deeds. A gunslinger can only perform deeds of her level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as any appropriate grit is spent to perform the deed.
Brave and Tough (Ex): A gunslinger gains a bonus on Fortitude saving throws and Will saving throws against fear, equal to ¼ her level.
Covering Shot (Ex): As an immediate reaction, when a gunslinger misses with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point to pin down the target of that missed attack. The pinned-down target is treated as if it were entangled for 1 round. A gunslinger cannot choose to purposely miss a target to gain this effect.
Deadeye (Ex): A gunslinger can target touch AC beyond her firearm’s first range increment. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point per range increment beyond the first. The gunslinger still takes the –2 penalty on attack rolls for each range increment beyond the first when she performs this deed.
Extra Innovation: A gunslinger that selects this deed can develop an additional innovation. This deed can be taken multiple times.
Gunslinger Initiative (Ex): As long as a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks. If she also has the Quick Draw feat, her hands are free and unrestrained, and the firearm is not hidden, she can draw a single firearm as part of the initiative check.
Gunslinger Feat: A gunslinger that selects this deed gains a bonus combat or grit feat. This deed can be taken multiple times.
Leap for Cover (Ex): When a creature makes a ranged attack against the gunslinger, she can drop prone as an immediate action, gaining the +4 bonus to AC. She applies the bonus retroactively to the triggering attack.
Pistol-whip (Ex): A gunfighter can make a surprise melee attack with
the butt or handle of her firearm as a standard action. When she does, she is considered to be proficient with the firearm as a melee weapon (gaining a +2 bonus on the attack roll) and gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to the enhancement bonus of the firearm. The damage dealt by the pistol-whip is of the bludgeoning type, and is determined by the size of the firearm. One-handed firearms deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if wielded by size Small creatures) and two-handed firearms deal 1d10 points of damage (1d8 if wielded by size Small creatures).
Regardless of the gunslinger’s size, the critical multiplier of this attack is 20/×2. If the attack hits, the gunslinger can make a CMB check to knock the target prone as a free action. Performing this deed costs 1 grit point.
Quick Clear (Ex): As a standard action, a gunslinger can remove the broken condition from a single firearm she is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform.
Targeting (Ex): As a swift action, a gunslinger can take aim for greater accuracy and effect. On the next firearm attack she makes before the end of her turn, she can choose part of the body to target, and gain the following effects depending on the part of the body targeted. If a creature does not have one of the listed body locations, that body location cannot be targeted. This deed costs 1 grit point to perform no matter the part of the creature you target. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack are immune to these effects.
• Head: On a hit, the target is damaged normally, and is also confused for 1 round. This is a mindaffecting effect.
• Torso: Targeting the torso doubles the critical range of the affected attack.
• Arms: On a hit, the target takes no damage from the hit and drops one carried item of your choice, even if the item is wielded with two hands. Items held in a locked gauntlet are not dropped on a hit.
• Legs or Wings: On a hit, the target is damaged normally and knocked prone. A flying creature falls. A creature that is immune to trip attacks is immune to this effect.
Utility Shot (Ex): As long as a gunslinger has 1 grit to use, she can perform one of the following utility shots.
• Blast Lock: A gunslinger makes an attack roll against a lock within the first range increment of her firearm. A diminutive lock usually has AC 7, and larger locks have higher ACs. The lock gains a bonus to its AC against this attack based on its quality. A simple lock has +10 bonus to AC, an average lock has a +15 bonus to AC, a good lock has a +20 bonus to AC, and a superior lock has a +30 bonus to AC.
• Arcane lock grants a +10 bonus on the AC of a lock against this attack. On a hit, the lock is destroyed, and the object can be opened as if it were unlocked. On a miss, the lock is destroyed, but the object is jammed, and still considered locked. It can still be unlocked by performing this deed, the Disable Device skill, or with the break DC, though the DC or the AC increases by 10. A key, combination, or similar mechanical method of unlocking the lock no longer works, though knock can still be employed to bypass the lock, and the creator of an arcane lock can still bypass the wards of that spell.
• Scoot Unattended Object: The gunslinger makes an attack roll against a Tiny or smaller unattended object within the first range increment of her firearm. A Tiny unattended object has AC 5, a Diminutive unattended object has AC 7, and a Fine sized unattended object has AC 11. On a hit, you do not damage the object with the shot, but can move it up to 15 feet farther away from shot’s origin. On a miss, the gunslinger damages the object normally.
• Stop Bleeding: The gunslinger makes a firearm attack and presses the hot barrel on an adjacent creature to staunch a bleeding wound. Instead of dealing damage, the shot ends a single bleed condition affecting the creature. The gunslinger does not have to make an attack roll when it performing the deed in this way; she can shoot the firearm in the air, but that shot does use up ammunition normally.
Greater Deeds: At 11th level, and every two levels thereafter, a gunslinger can choose one of the following greater deeds in place of a deed.
Bleeding Wound (Ex): When a gunslinger hits a living creature with a firearm attack, she can spend 1 grit point as a free action to have that attack deal extra bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage is equal to the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. Alternatively, the gunslinger can spend 2 grit points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage (gunslinger’s choice) instead. Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to either type of bleed damage.
Deft Shootist (Ex): Spend 1 grit point as a free action. You Whenever a gunslinger is shooting or reloading her firearm, she can spend 1 grit point as a free action and she does not provoke attacks of opportunity until the end of her turn.
Expert Loading (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger rolls a misfire with a gun that has the broken condition, she can spend 1 grit point to keep the gun from exploding, though it retains the broken condition.
Startling Shot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger has at least 1 grit point and misses a creature with a firearm attack, the target of the missed attack becomes flat-footed until the start of its next turn. A gunslinger cannot purposely choose to miss a target in order to gain this effect.
Stunning Shot (Ex): When a gunslinger scores a critical hit, she can spend 1 grit point to deal normal damage and stun the creature for 1 round. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are also immune to this effect. Performing this deed does not allow the gunslinger to regain grit from confirming a critical hit.
5) Add the following deeds, all suggested by CalebTGordan (aka Taylor Hubler). Not sure where to place some of them in the new Deeds mechanics I'm suggestiong. Any suugestions welcome. Any questions about these you should aim at CalebTGordan
All Sides(Ex): A gunslinger can fire her weapons in any direction, even straight behind her. By wielding a loaded firearm and spending 1 grit point, a gunslinger cannot be flanked for one round.*
Bayonet Training(Ex):By spending 1 grit point the gunslinger can affix or remove a bayonet to her firearm as a swift action instead of a move action.*
Dazing Shot (Ex): When a gunslinger scores a critical hit, she can spend 1 grit point to deal normal damage and daze the creature for 1 round. Creatures that immune to critical hits are also immune to this effect. A gunslinger must have the targeting deed to choose this deed.*
Didn’t See It Coming (Ex): By making a single attack that takes a full round action and spending grit, the gunslinger can increase the range that her guns are effective at. For each grit point spent, the range increment for the firearm fired by the gunslinger increases by 20. The gunslinger must have the steady aim deed to choose this deed.*
Dive for Cover (Ex): When a creature makes a ranged attack against the gunslinger, she can dive behind cover if it within 5 ft. of her as an immediate action. If she moves 5 ft. that movement does not count against her movement that turn, and the attack still aims for her. She gains any bonus to her AC for the cover against that attack. If the gunslinger moved to a place she will have full cover, count it as regular cover for that attack. A gunslinger can use this deed as long as she has 1 grit point available.*
Double Blast (Ex): If a gunslinger is duel wielding one handed firearms and successfully hits the same target with both of them, she may spend 1 grit point to deal an extra 1d6 of damage. The gunslinger must have guns akimbo deed to choose this deed.*
Get Down (Ex): When a creature makes a ranged attack against the gunslinger, she can drop prone as an immediate action, gaining the +4 bonus to AC. She applies the bonus retroactively to the triggering attack. A gunslinger can use this deed as long as she has 1 grit point available.*
Improved Bayonet Training (Ex): As long as a gunslinger has 1 grit point, any feats related to the firearm she is wielding (such as weapon focus) also apply to any bayonet attached to that firearm. A gunslinger must have the bayonet training deed to choose this deed.*
Improved Guns Akimbo (Ex): When duel wielding one handed firearms, they are treated as light weapons to determine two-weapon fighting penalties as long as there is 1 grit point available. The gunslinger must have the double blast deed to choose this deed.*
Improved Sharp Shooter (Ex): The gunslinger may target the touch AC of a target within the first two range increments as long as she has 1 grit point available. The Gunslinger must have the take aim deed to choose this deed.*
Improved Steady Aim (Ex): As long as there is 1 grit point left, the gunslinger can fire a firearm up to ten range increments away. A gunslinger must have the didn’t see it coming deed to choose this deed.*
Keep Them Dancing (Ex): When firing into melee, a gunslinger can spend 2 grit points as part of a single attack. If the attack hits, the attack deals minimum damage and causes the target to provoke an attack of opportunity.*
Sharp Shooter (Ex): The gunslinger may apply the deadly aim feat to the firearms touch attacks as long as there is 1 grit point available. The gunslinger must have the deadly aim feat to choose this deed.*
Startling Shot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger misses a creature with a firearm attack and spends 1 grit point, the target of the missed attack becomes flat-footed until the start of its next turn. A gunslinger cannot purposely choose to miss a target in order to gain this effect.*
Steady Aim (Ex): The range increment of firearms used by the gunslinger is increased by 10 as long as 1 grit point is available. The gunslinger must have the far shot feat to choose this deed.*
Stunning Shot (Ex): When a gunslinger scores a critical hit, she can spend 1 grit point to deal normal damage and stun the creature for 1 round. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are also immune to this effect. A gunslinger must have the dazing shot deed to choose this deed.*
Take Aim (Ex): By spending 1 grit point the gunslinger may take a full round action to aim and fire a single firearm. This attack uses the deadly aim feat without the penalty to attack. The gunslinger must have the sharp shooter deed to choose this deed.*
6) Add the following
He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites.
If the gunslinger selects musketeer, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot. At 6th level, he adds Improved Precise Shot and Vital Strike to the list. At 10th level, he adds Pinpoint Targeting and Improved Vital Strike to the list.
If the gunslinger selects buccaneer, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Dazzling Display, Point-Blank Shot, Quick Draw, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Deadly Stroke to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Penetrating Strike to the list.
If the gunslinger selects pistoleer, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Point-Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot, and Two-Weapon Fighting. At 6th level, he adds Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Many Shot to the list. At 10th level, he adds Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Shot on the Run to the list.
The benefits of the gunslinger’s chosen style feats apply only when he wears light, medium, or no armor. He loses all benefits of his firearm combat style feats when wearing heavy armor. Once a gunslinger selects a firearm combat style, it cannot be changed.
7) Include Innovation (my previous post) at 4th level.
8) Following change to Gun Training
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a gunslinger’s firearm bonus increases by an additional +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage rolls.
9) Add Legendary Deeds. More required, suggestions welcome.
True Grit (Ex): A gunslinger picks two deeds that she has access to and that she must spend grit to perform. She can perform these deeds for 1 less grit point (minimum 0). If the number of grit points to perform the deed is reduced to 0, the gunslinger can perform this deed as long as she has at least 1 grit point.
10) New/shifted capstone ability.
Deadly Shot (Ex): At 20th level, when a gunslinger confirms a critical hit against a living creature, she can choose to deal normal damage, and the target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 the gunslinger’s level + the gunslinger’s Dexterity modifier. On a failed saving throw, the target dies. This is a death effect. Performing this action does not allow her to regain grit from confirming a critical hit.
That's all I've got. Would like to include the "Pickle" version of shooting, but not sure how to incorporate it yet.
I think Stephen killed this thread...
Quick! Someone propose something radical and unlikeable so we can all start talking about it again!
[sarcasm]THE GUNSLINGER SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO BE LAWFUL GOOD AND GET A BONUS 5D10 DAMAGE AT LEVEL 1 ON ALL ATTACK ROLLS EVEN WITHOUT GUNS 'CUZ THEY'RE LIKE JEDIS! Also spells.[/sarcasm]
Discuss.
-The Beast
Heheh, sorry I've been slow with posting. Having to deal with RL stuff, and unfortunately I don't get paid for this sort of thing yet (oh but to dream). I'll hopefully be posting some more on the gunslinger, and answering posts, soonish.
I like the idea of combat styles: pistoleer, buccaneer, musketeer as I think ive suggested elsewhere.
This would be a very good idea and packaged well as it's an already workable ranger package; and represent all the probable variations.
Now To make my gunslinging magus with unseen servant memorized a bunch of times....
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I feel honored to have those deeds posted with other class change suggestions. The one thing I want to point out about them is that some of them are pretty powerful, and need some retooling or balancing. I was supposed to have that done already, but work just gave me some more hours.
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(The following isn't probably -perfectly- balanced, but it throws some ideas on the table to be used. :)
Ironically, I like these innovations in crunch but not their feeling, maybe that for me the idea itself of doing awesome things with guns is enough without adding a kind of alchemical/magical feeling to it.
I tried to make the Ammunitions useful AND different, the kind of thing you hesitate like crazy before choosing what to take when you level up ! And with the Powders, you can essentially simulate a flamethrower with your Shotgun...)
In Innovations (Ex) :
Alchemical Powder (Ex) : when selecting this Innovation, a Gunslinger choses one element from the following list : fire, cold, electricity, acid. All attacks and deeds now inflict +1d6 from each of the elements he got this way as long as the Gunslinger still has 1 remaining grit point per element. The gunslinger can chose to use only one element if he got several ones but only one grit point remaining. The choice of "active" elements is made when reloading any firearm. Furthermore, when using any deed that targets several enemies and allowing a saving throw to halve damages (like Burst Fire), the Gunslinger can choose to inflict these damages in any element he got from Elemental Powder.
Alchemical ammunitions (Ex) : Each Alchemical Powder the gunslinger got on it's firearm attacks now adds an effect that stacks with the +1d6 basis. Activating of deactivating any of them is part of a reload action :
- Fire : thanks to a phosphore heart, each bullet now explodes on impact, catching the target in a short but intense fire. You can shoot on any inflammable material to make it catch fire. Any enemy touched by this kind of bullet is considered Dazzled with a -2 malus for 1 round cumulative. If you get a critical hit, the target is blinded and catches fire for one round, suffering 1d6 from fire on the beginning of it's next round. This last effect isn't cumulative.
- Cold : these bullets are made of concentrated eternal ice, and get activated by a deflagration. If the Gunslinger targets any square on the battlefield, he can create a 1.5ft puddle of water that is considered a difficult terrain for everything except the purpose of Charging. If he shoots a second time on this square or if he made a critical hit when doing so the first time, he creates frozen water, as if he just cast the spell Grease with a caster level equal to his Gunslinger level. The Gunslinger can also shoot an existing puddle but in this case there is a 25% chance to fail, going to 50% if the temperature is high and 75% in extreme cases, like a desert or a volcano.
- Electricity : an electromagnetic cylinder makes any bullet shot by your firearms attracted to steel like a dragon by a sweet pool of gold. Each time you shoot a target with a metal armor, weapon or shield, you get +1 to attack and damage.
- Acid : a corrosive filler in the head of your bullets hurts everything you touch with a digestive toxin that ignores 5 hardness points from objects, inflicts 1d4 more damage and poisons any living target. The poison got the following properties : DD8, 1Con/1 round, 1 save. The DD save isn't made for each bullet but at the beginning of the target's round. The poison stacks with itself. Thus, is the Gunslinger hits 4 times with these Acid bullets, the poison effect at the beginning of the victim's round would be DD16, 1Con/4 rounds, 1 save.
In Deeds (Ex) :
(Level 6)
Pickle Shot (Ex) : Whenever you use a pistol, musket or blunderbuss, you can make all your available attacks for this turn in one and only shot. This is made by resolving all your attacks as a full-attack action against one opponent. You can misfire only once per round in this way, and the misfire of an attack only affects your following attacks, not those who precede. Count any RD only once, but add damages normally, as if you shot several times.
Hack and shoot (Ex) : When using firearms as melee weapons in a full-attack action, you can use your second and fourth attack on each hand to shoot with your guns instead of using them as clubs, using the normal bonuses to hit, without provoking attacks of opportunity. This capacity doesn't grant additional attacks. You must have Pistol Whip to take this deed. (Or even simplier, make a deed that lets the Gunslinger shoot without provoking attacks of opportunity.)
Btw, I love Bayonet and Improved Bayonet training. Can't wait to play a Gun Kata master. 8D
Though, I believe Improved Guns Akimbo should work with Pistol Whip and not only double Blast. :)
I feel honored to have those deeds posted with other class change suggestions. The one thing I want to point out about them is that some of them are pretty powerful, and need some retooling or balancing. I was supposed to have that done already, but work just gave me some more hours.
I think you/we'll need to figure out what the min level req. is for some of them, and whether they fit in the Deeds or greater Deeds category. The retooling and balancing can happen here on posts, or at Paizo if they like them and use them.
(The following isn't probably -perfectly- balanced, but it throws some ideas on the table to be used. :)
Ironically, I like these innovations in crunch but not their feeling, maybe that for me the idea itself of doing awesome things with guns is enough without adding a kind of alchemical/magical feeling to it.
I tried to make the Ammunitions useful AND different, the kind of thing you hesitate like crazy before choosing what to take when you level up ! And with the Powders, you can essentially simulate a flamethrower with your Shotgun...)In Innovations (Ex) :
** spoiler omitted **...
I like these. The innovations allow some diversity for the gunslinger in his black powder crafting without resorting to magic per se. I also like the deeds. I'd love to see how a gunslinger and alchemist would play off of each other in a party.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Btw, I love Bayonet and Improved Bayonet training. Can't wait to play a Gun Kata master. 8D
Though, I believe Improved Guns Akimbo should work with Pistol Whip and not only double Blast. :)
With Bayonet training, I thought I had included a deed, possibly named Greater Bayonet Training, that furthered the idea. It allowed the bayonet to be affixed in a way that allowed the firearm to be fired. The bayonet was only affixed for 10 attacks, or till the end of the encounter. If I didn't include it, there must have been a reason. The ability to alternate between melee and ranged attacks might not be that useful though.
I see no reason why Guns Akimbo wouldn't work with Pistol Whip. In my own rebuild I gave the ability to use the guns as melee weapons to the gunslinger as a class feature. Thus, they wouldn't have to draw a melee weapon if someone closed the distance, they could just hit the target with the butt of the gun. Pistol Whip just gave them ability to knock people prone. Does the wording in Guns Akimbo need to change to allow the ability to work with Pistol Whip?
BTW Maxximilius, what does RD mean in your Pickle Shot deed post?
Bomb launcher?
I like these. The innovations allow some diversity for the gunslinger in his black powder crafting without resorting to magic per se. I also like the deeds. I'd love to see how a gunslinger and alchemist would play off of each other in a party.
+1