Hurr hurr get it Touhou joke and Dark Tower joke.
Anyways.
The gunslinger! I'm one of those folks who sees no problem with guns in my fantasy. After all, we have the style of platemail that came around after guns, and it's, well, a fantasy game, so it sticks pretty well. So I love guns, and I love gunslingers.
I don't like this class.
I really don't like this class.
Let's dive in!
The Basics
The gunslinger is advertised as a fighter archtype. In practice this means it has the basic fighter chassis with a few small modifications. In reality, the Gunslinger has full BAB and qualifies for fighter feats. I don't actually blame the Gunslinger for this problem - the problemist hat an archtype is meant to exchange class abilities, of which the fighter has none. The Gunslinger can't be blamed for the fighter having nothing that makes it stand out. Nonetheless, it's not really an archtype.
Full BAB and HD works well as the gunslinger is about killing people and not much else, but we run into a problem on skills: no perception. Guys, the idea of a blind gunslinger is kinda cool and Book of Eli had it's good moments but really, perception and "Gunslinger" belong together. You can't have a grizzled crackshot with a five o'clock shadow who can't actually make his crackshot because he can't see.
The saving throws are also kinda weird. So, full reflex, I get that. but he also has full Fort...sorta. Brave and Tough essentially gives him full fort -1. It's not neccisarily a problem, it's just kinda weird.
Guns: Because Crossbows Need to Laugh at Someone
Let's get this out of the way now: I dislike - greatly - how guns were handled. It's just a mess.
First off, the prices are absolutely laughable for what you get out of the package. Oh boy at level three I can finally afford a weapon that's worse then a sling I could get for free, and it costs a feat to boot. Also: chance to blow up in my hands! The price spike doesn't end there though. Gunpowder is ten gold a pop, with bullets at one gold. That means every shot the gunslinger makes could've gone towards hiring a trope of mercenaries to use bows instead. Why not just buy a wand of magic missile at those prices?
Secondly, reload times. Look, I understand that Vital Strike was a pretty ok idea, but it doesn't do enough. Until the "full attack" action is murdered, then full attacks reign supreme. And if one weapon can do a full attack, then all other weapons that can't fall behind, and they fall behind fast. As the title states, you've made a weapon that even the long maligned crossbows can laugh at.
Lastly, the chance to explode. Don't do this. Please don't do this. Bows don't have a change to crack. Swords don't have a chance to snap. Quarterstaves don't have a chance to break in half. There's no reason to do this to guns other then "Hey, screw guns." Here's the thing: the chance to explode doesn't add anything. You aren't making the game better with it.
Now, there is one thing guns have - the ability to hit touch armor. This seems like a p. good idea, but it's ruined by the fact that it'll never come into play, and the three cons listed above just outweight it by so much. The iterative attacks part just slaughters it - with how slowly AC scales compared to your attack, your first attack will, far more likely then not, hit, unless you're a low BAB class (who wouldn't be attacking with a weapon in the first place). Hitting touch armor doesn't really help you if you can't make those second or third attacks that AC actually defends against.
But wait, is that really a benefit? Let's look at Deadly Aim. "The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage."
Congrats. The one benefit that guns get? Turns out to be an incredible disadvantage.
Miserable. Absolutely miserable.
Gritmakers and Gunslingers
So, Grit.
Grit reminds me of something I never understood - the hardcore obsession with "daily" mechanics. It induces a lot of problems, honestly. It gave birth to the "nova" effect. It limits balance to something that has to be done throughout a full day. It enforces that a game has a "suggested number of encounters" per day, which is meta as all hell. I'm not a big fan.
So Grit, unsurprisingly, is by day. Ugh.
Grit is tied to wisdom, which at first is ok. Alright, we have a bit of a sort of zen gunslinger sorta thing going on here, I can dig it. Except grit is the only thing tied to wisdom. It's like if fighters just had a single ability tied to charisma for no ungodly reason. It just doesn't add up. Beyond that, you get so hilariously little grit. Even at 18 wisdom - which will be rare - that's only four grit a day. That's nothing.
Secondly, grit can be restored. Ssssssssorta. Ok, that makes the "daily" mechanic work a bit better. Youo start with four, but you can build them up and fluxuate a lot. Soudns good, right! Thing is, the restoration styles are terrible and will never be used.
* First: the first baddie you kill gives you grit. Why is this tied to the day? This would work if it was a per-encounter deal, but tying it to only the first baddie of the day means more often then not it's utterly, utterly forgettable. Especially if you have four encounters in one day; who's going to remember the ONE bad guy who shot in the morning?
* Second: confirming a crit on a baddie with at least half your HD gives you grit. Right off the bat, gun will explode more often then this. After that, why is this tied to HD? It just seems like a perfect excuse for a DM to smugface at you when you finally manage to crit something with "Sorry bro, his HD was too low."
* Third: Daring Act. Static DCs make this hilariously bad. The better you get at doing things, the worst your grit collection will be. Not only that, but it's intrinsically trying a core character mechanic to DM fiat. Every single table I go to, I'm going to have to talk to them about daring acts to see what would or wouldn't count.
And that's it. We have one that's utterly forgetable, one that's hilariously rare, and one that's basically just "Whenever your DM gives it to you." That's laughable.
Dirty Deeds Done Way Too Expensively
Now that we've covered that grit is rare as hell, that means your deeds are undoubtedly very powerful, right? Wellll...no. I'll be covering deeds in full in their own section - let's just snip it here and say "Not a quarter of how good the rarity of grit would make them need to be"
All that's left
Here we'll talk about the other bits and pieces of the class.
First off, starts with a gun. If the gun and ammo weren't so rediculously expensive, this wouldn't really be needed. Gun problem over class problem - but still a problem.
Gun training: This needs to start at level 1. At levels 1-4, you're doing a truly pathetic amount of damage.
Brave and Tough: It's weird, but I covered it already.
True Grit: This isn't really much of a capstone. It's pretty weak and isn't in any way a game changer.
Big Deed On His Hip
Let's talk deeds. I don't like them, either - they're really weak.
Leap for Cover: Sounds good until you remember you then have to get back up.
Deadeye: Likewise, sounds good until you note it costs one grit for each range increment. Nothing like burning all four grit of the day in a single shot!
Quick Clear: Terrible, terrible patch to a mechanic that shouldn't exist in the first place.
Pistol-whip: First thought: why is this level 3? Does it take me that long to realize I can hit someone with the big piece of iron in my hands? Second thought: why does this cost grit? The chance to knock prone may as well be nonexistant as gunslingers won't have high strength.
Gunslinger Initiative: This ability is good because it doesn't cost grit.
Covering Shot: A weird one. I like it, but it's strange that it can't be done on purpose. Maybe chance it so you can do it on command.
Targeting: This one irritates me to no end. It shouldn't be a class ability, it should be something for anyone with a gun or crossbow can do. Why not bows? Because screw bows.
Bleeding Wound: At level 11, this is just laughable.
[u]Utility Shot[/i]: This is the worst deed. The worst. There's no reason it takes you until level 11 to get this. There's no reason it takes a grit to sunder a lock with a a gun. There's only three utility shots too, and the "Stop bleeding" is just plain weird, on top of not being that good. Terrible, absolutely terrible.
Startling Shot: Insultingly bad. Grit is the most important thing in the world to you - not only is this ability not very strong, but it costs you TWO grit. AND you don't get it until level 19, which I guess is a good thing, as having it would just make you angry.
Deadly Shot: Looks good right up until it can only be done after confirming a crit. Pay two grit, get a not so good SoD, only at level 19, only can be done after a crit.
Look, maybe one of those abilities is worth spending grit on. The vast, vast majority of them, though, really shouldn't cost grit at all, much less grit that is as hilariously rare as you have. A lot of them are horribly unimaginative, most are incredibly weak. Congrats to the Magus, it's found something even worse then his Beta 1 arcanas.
I Got Questions that Jingle Jangle Jingle
When I look at any class, I've formulated four questions that I feel need to be answered.
1) What does this class do in a fight?
2) What does this class do outside of a fight?
3) How does this class compare to other similar options?
4) How much narrative power does this class have?
So, let's answer the questions.
1) Not much! Gunslinger can't take damage, and it can't really deal damage. It can't throw out buffs or disrupting effects. He can't control the battlefield and he can't heal.
2) Close to nothing. Two skill points per level combined with almost zero out of combat abiltiies.
3) Very, very poorly. Bow supremecy continues, it seems. Even crossbows can laugh at the gunslinger - their weapon doesn't explode in their hands.
4) None. The gunslinger cannot effect the world or the narrative of the game in the slightest.
I have some extra questions I want to ask the developers as they get ready to move into the next beta, on top of those:
1) What attributes do you see as being important for the gunslinger? Currently, he - like everyone - wants constitution, and as a ranged attacker he's built off dexterity. However, because his gear weighs so much, he needs good strength too. Grit means he hypothetically wants wisdom, except nothing else is based off Wisdom, so it seems more of a punishment then a reward.
2) What do you see the gunslinger doing in a fight? Is he sniping enemies with a single shot? Is he running through guns akimbo? Is he potentially doing both? Right now the gunslinger does neither - both of those rely on a means of superceding the full attack round.
3) What class do you want the gunslinger to compare to in terms of damage? Right now the gunslinger may be the least damaging class in the game; at the very best, he may be on par with monks, which are notoriously weak, and nowhere near the fighter he's meant to be an archtype of.
4) Where do you see guns in the game? Are they a weapon for everyone, are they meant to be good for a few classes, or are they just the gunslinger weapon? Currently, there's no reason at all for any class other then the gunslinger to use guns. I've already covered the myriad of flaws that the gunslinger himself has. I cannot foresee anyone picking up a gun in the game.
Guns: Because Crossbows Need to Laugh at Someone
Tut, tut, you forgot slings.
I totally agree with you about guns. I think you pretty much nailed it. Its a real problem in my opinion, and no tweaking of the damage output of guns is going to change that. The name of the game is full attacking, ESPCIALLY with ranged fighting. Making that as difficult as it is for guns means they are always going to be second class weapons (or even perhaps third class since at least crossbows finally got a little love).
Done~
Sadly, I agree with most of your points. I love the idea of a Gunslinger, I actually played one (kinda) in a 3.5 mishmash game using some stuff from Iron Kingdoms, but the way these guns and this class is designed leaves a lot to be desired.
I have to disagree with your 3. post in two ways.
The Gunner can disrupt a bit. Not very good, but it should be mentioned that if he misses he can help a bit. Not that his one shot per round is very likely to miss.
And the narrative power, well, the daring act will normally help to get more challenges. I don't say that the daring act is good, but it does affect the narrative.
Edit: not too be misunderstood, I agree with you on most of the rest.
I think part of the problem is that we don't have the whole picture yet. In the Basic Firearm Rules, it mentions that for the purposes of this playtest, guns come in two varieties, meaning that they probably intend to introduce more, such as multi-barreled or revolver style guns with the actual book. Which is sad because until that time, the playtest for the Gunslinger will be incomplete.
So if the book introduced double barrel pistols, six barrel muskets and such, then the problem of the lack of full-attack disappears.
That is an excellent point...but then what is the point of having a playtest if you cannot test it properly? They should have given at least four or maybe five different types to give some options. Until then, i'd probably just play the class with two light repeating crossbows instead of guns or just the Heavy repeating crossbow instead of the musket.
Well instead of using crossbows, I am going to playtest mine with both heavy hitters that do multiple dice damage with Vital Strike and with normal damage ranges with multiple barrels, see which I like best. I'm not too fond of dealing an average of 6 damage over two rounds with a musket at 3rd level, or even 14 a round at 8th with a +1 pistol with +6 Dex and flaming bullets.
I agree with a lot of points from the OP, especially the part about guns misfiring while no other weapons have similar rules. I think they should remove the misfire rules at least for magical and masterwork guns or just give the gunslinger an ability so that no gun misfires in his hands.
Crossbows have always been bad weapons in D&D and guns as presented seem even worse. As a full base attack class I think the gunslinger will have a hard time filling out the spot as a main damage dealer next to archers or melee builds.
I will hopefully get to play-test the class in a few days to see if my concerns are valid.
Bump to see what others think~
Bump to see what others think~
I think you did a good job of consolidating a lot of the critiques flying around in other threads but nothing that hadnt already been started having discussion in those venues.
Bump to see what others think~
I think you're right.
Of the many problems I have with this class, its implementation, and the weaponry it uses, one of the most nagging is the question of what the designers were going for.
I ask myself, why use a gun in the first place? The answer, for me, is because of some 'cool' factor, but a more utilitarian answer is in order to do high damage with a ranged weapon. Clearly, that isn't happening.
What would a gunslinger's skills be? For the answer to this one has to consider the feats for which a real-world firearm expert seeks to become proficient. It doesn't take a wild stretch to say that expending finite energy to shoot locks and popping people in the head in order to confuse them aren't on the list. The fact is, it's a whole lot simpler than that. Shoot, hit the target, deal damage.
What use are firearms over other forms of attack? Basically, they deal extensive damage to the area that the bullet hits. If the bullet pierces, there can be extreme internal injuries as the lead rips through tissue and bone. If it doesn't pierce (hence bludgeoning damage), it'll still leave a hefty bruise. Of course, this is where calling your shots comes in - though the rules as presented lack any of gravity of being shot with a gun. Shooting someone in the arm doesn't even deal damage.
There is a mechanic designed around extra damage for attacking vital areas. It's called sneak attack, and it's a rogue thing. As it stands, a rogue with a gun is probably more effective than a gunslinger anyway.
There are encumbrance issues from level one because of the amount of 'free' equipment the character receives, and the cost to replace it is extreme for when it blows up. Grit is a throwaway mechanic that, unfortunately, serves as the basis for the class. Feats must be spent to gain new uses for grit, each with heavy prerequisites. Not to mention that for a fighter variant, the designers certainly limited one great fighter advantage - lots of feats.
Even the capstone ability pales in comparison to what was traded. Considering the critical multiplier they chose for these guns (which seems like the only place they went too far), I'd prefer that all my critical hits were automatically confirmed rather than gaining the ability to shoot locks for free.
I'm also crazed about gun hitting touch ACs. I'm not sure why this misconception that bullets can inherently go through metal persists. These lead balls lack the piercing power of a sharp arrow - which, for the record, historically had more luck going through armor. That's why bows get a x3 multiplier - because when they get through, they go deep. Meanwhile, despite the fact that pistols can't even beat the hardness of steel by themselves, they get to ignore armor. Even adamantine armor, which would normally require 31 points of damage from a single shot.
I'm trying to stay objective and constructive on this, but the approach taken is making it very difficult to escape that nihilistic voice in my head that's shouting for this particular piece of content to be removed before it becomes official.
I agree with a lot of the gun shenanigans. Honestly, I've just been using the guns from the campaign setting. They only jam if you allow critical failures, have a much longer range, and the revolver along with a blunderbuss and scattergun are presented. They even recommended exploding dice if you allowed critical fails.
If the guns presented in the playtest PDF and the guns presented in the campaign setting were consolidated, I think a lot of the problems with them would go away. The problem with the campaign setting guns was how unattractive they were compared to even crossbows just how they were statted (less damage save for the shotguns, less range save for the rifle, slower to reload, less criticals save for the rifle). The problems with the playtest guns have already been eloquently stated. So why would anyone waste a feat to get these weapons?
If they're exotic weapons, make them worth the feat. A one-handed ranged weapon with a move action reload that deals 1d8 (or 2d4) x4 critical at a range of 40-60 feet is not broken if it costs a feat. If jamming is kept, keep the exploding dice too; it's understood that guns are a fair bit more complex than other weapons and might fail more, but let them do more damage like they should. Risk should come with payoff.
Don't be afraid of guns, dev team. They have consistently been getting the short end of the stick and that shouldn't ruin a fun idea like the Gunslinger.
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Bump to see what others think~
I could spend a lot of words just reiterating what you have pointed, but I wont :) You hit on everything I have with the class, and stated much better than I could have.
When I first saw the class name I thought "cool". Initial read over I really like the flavor of the class. Unfortunately the mechanics just dont back up said cool flavor.
The part about gun rules being set in stone worries me the most. The gun rules as written, make them worse than crossbows. No one will want to use them, and they wont be changing. I understand they are trying to make them not overpowered, but Paizo really went to far, and has in fact made them nearly worthless. Touch AC on shots in the first range increment? Kind of unnecessary with a full BAB class, the gunslinger probably wont have any trouble hitting even normal AC. Guess its nice for other class, except the damage is laughably low. x4 crit multiplier doesnt make it a good weapon, see the scythe. At least the scythe can trip someone!
This class needs a lot of work, and Paizo is pretty awesome about these playtests, so I can expect some changes. I really feel they shouldn't have their gun rules set in stone however. Take advantage of these play tests and let guns be looked at still.
Just read this through, nice job. Although there's a couple of things I disagree on, you're pretty much spot on.
The gunslinger is advertised as a fighter archtype. ...In reality, the Gunslinger has full BAB and qualifies for fighter feats. I don't actually blame the Gunslinger for this problem - the problemist hat an archtype is meant to exchange class abilities, of which the fighter has none.
Bonus Feats are the Fighter Class Feature they give up in exchange for Grit, etc. Gunslingers get much less than normal Fighters. You may not like it, but that`s how it is. To me, it feels in line with APG-specialist Fighter Variants... I think the class is also being ´balanced´ not so much on a ´exchanging features´ basis, but on making the somewhat problematic fire=arms actually workable or with benefits, while their drawbacks are generally going to be much stronger for non-Gunslingers to use.
I fully agree they should/need to have Perception as Class Skill.
I also think Sense Motive should seriously be considered being added.
(Coincidentally both are WIS skills, making these Class Skills would balance a switch of Grit from WIS to CHA)
The saving throws are also kinda weird. So, full reflex, I get that. but he also has full Fort...sorta. Brave and Tough essentially gives him full fort -1. It's not neccisarily a problem, it's just kinda weird.
Note that there are now Feats in the APG that require BASE Fort Save of a certain amount... which the Gunslinger may not qualify for.
I think your take on the Touch AC/Deadly Shot issue is missing several factors. #1, Paizo has already said they are looking into that, i.e. to allow Deadly Shot to work. #2, even without that, attacking vs. Touch AC means any Crits have a much higher chance to Confirm. And I feel that Armor Bonus IS actually relevant to hitting/missing things, even for Full BAB classes.(Esp. Full BAB classes with extra stat they need to worry about, and with less Bonus Feats to easily afford Weapon Focus).
I also disagree with many of your takes on Grit.
* First: the first baddie you kill gives you grit.
This is one of the many features of Grit which are COUNTER to Nova´ing. You get more Grit AFTER your 1st encounter, so it`s either balancing out Grit use in that first encounter, or encouraging you to `work up` to using more Grit later by not using Grit in every encounter. The re-charge mechanics fundamentally seem about `focusing` player attention on cinematic `scenes`, which seems broadly effective as I see it. If the GAME is going NOVA, ramping up encounters which can qualify to grant Grit, your Grit will tend to ramp up to match. Seems reasonable to me.
* Second: confirming a crit on a baddie with at least half your HD gives you grit. Right off the bat, gun will explode more often then this. After that, why is this tied to HD? It just seems like a perfect excuse for a DM to smugface at you when you finally manage to crit something with "Sorry bro, his HD was too low."
I don`t see how this will happen more often, at least with Pistols (esp. vs. Touch AC).
It`s tied to HD becaue otherwise shooting snakes and rats becomes a great way to gain Grit. `Half your HD` is short-hand for `not COMPLETELY a speed bump`, or threats that you half-way take seriously. This isn¨t fundamentally different than the GM saying `sorry bro, you don`t level up from killing that 1 HD commoner, when you`re already at 10th level`. Gaining Grit is supposed to be a dramatic event, not a butt-scratching event, which would be a waste of game-time/attention.* Third: Daring Act. Static DCs make this hilariously bad. The better you get at doing things, the worst your grit collection will be.
AFAIK all the examples given don`t have low Static DCs. That concern seems very strange to me, since it seems to assume that at high levels you can`t find activities which are non-trivial to achieve. The mechanic is an additional one the above two, to reward dangerous actions... I.e. reward drama, or TAKING those difficult actions at high level rather than cruise by with easy auto-pass DC actions. Again, playing up `cinematic` scenes appropriate to the flavor. Not only do you succeed on a difficult check (whatever it is), your Grit goes up (or cancels out Grit you spent on the action).
With Signature Deed reducing many Deeds to ZERO cost, that really makes them RELIABLE Class Feature at high level, making Grit Pool concerns alot less. There`s also the Deed doubling Crit Range (making the most of Fire-arm Crit Multiplier, and apparently stacking with Keen/etc), which feeds back into reliably triggering Grit increases.
I agree with some of your concerns about Deeds, but want to write-up my own take on them in a separate thread. Alot of them fundamentally don`t seem like a bad concept, but could either be available to any fire-arm user (meaning Gunslingers having many abilities making fire-arms more viable, are the most likely to take advantage of them), or just use some other mechanic (what is with the wierd shooting a lock mechanics? why not just use the same mechanic the party barbarian does in similar situations... Allow fire-arms in general - not just Gunslingers - to bypass objects´ half-damage from ranged and immunity to crits, when coup-de-gracing locks and similaly sized objects?)
I doubt it`ll change your attitude, but I think using phrases like `laughable`, `miserable`, ´pitiful´, ´a joke´ just aren`t the ones that help convey your sentiment to those who can actually change the class (at Paizo). Be as hard-hitting in your critique as you want, but attitudes and words like that don`t help at all. Do they make you feel more impressive or something? I just find it wierd, because I feel I personally have given very strong critiques of Paizo crunch in playtests, and after, but don´t really feel like I ever use that type of language.
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Gotta say, I think a lot of these problems are pretty valid. I want to see this class be able to compete with other ranged damage dealers, and as it is, it just won't. We need more and better things to spend grit on, more grit points in general, and a re-haul of how firearms work to make them viable.
I won't do the whole quote unquote requote thing, so here goes:
My issue with Grit and Deeds is that right now, Grit seems very rare and difficult to get, but deeds are really weak and suck grit dry. Grit makes it look like deeds should all be way powerful, like top tier spellcasting powerful, with how little you get. Deeds makes grit look like it should be really, really common and easy to come by. It's the worst of both worlds.
If gaining Grit is meant to be a dramatic event, then deeds need to be equally dramatic. They aren't even close, right now.
Consider, even starting at 18 wisdom - which is not common and requires a high point buy - the gunslinger has four grit. He gains one in his first kill, so that's one grit every fight, with one left over.
Now look at how often he'll be using it.
Your entire post is built around the assumption that grit is meant to be even more rare then level 8 spells, but the things they power are weaker then level 1 spells. If I'm only getting four of this thing a day, they need to be game-changing events.
As for Signature Deed, it makes me think someone at the last minute realized the whole system was a mess and that they just added that feat at the end to try and repair it.
Yeah, quote/counterquote is loathsome, thanks for avoiding that.
You know what my take on Signature Deed is?
It`s rather like Barbarians restarting Rage to re-use 1/Rage powers.
In other words a lower level limitation, that becomes easier to bypass at high level, to the point where it goes away, though you still have to spend Rage Rounds at double speed if you want to Rage on and off-turn.
And.... No, I÷m not assuming Grit usages are like 8th level spells... More like Ninja Ki.
Which seems pretty reasonable, since Ninjas are very similar to Rogue - BAB and Sneak Attack, just with this adjunct mechanic. So I see a similar balance point for Gunslingers/Fighters. Obviously, you don÷t like Core Fighters that much, so I can imagine your take on that...
The core assumption of the game is 4-5 encounters per day right?
I`m just not seeing a big problem here... not even assuming a super high WIS score. But the dynamic here is perhaps more SWINGY than we are used to with classes with X spells per day. You could very well keep regenerating Grit at a high pace, or you could get unlucky and run out of Grit early one adventuring day.
I think bullets can remain a cost, they should be cheap though, with special materials like Adamantine/Silver being on par with arrows. POWDER on the other hand, I can really see being free for Gunslingers... NON-Gunlingers can pay a reasonable amount - perhaps lower than currently - but Gunslingers should be able to have ongoing powder, just like Alchemists do for their Extracts. To extend this, I could even see a Bomb sub-system, possibly using Deeds/Feats to be most effective, also tying into gunpowder. If they`re making a gunpowder based class, it doesn`t seem a stretch to also have a Demolitions aspect as well... ???
I can see Gunslinger abilities built in, so Jammed guns have a much lesser penalty, say only a -2 until fixed, for example. Anyhow, hopeully I have time to give more detailed response to the class later...
Here are what I feel would be some good fixes.
1. Revolvers so we can use multiple attacks per round. (Which in another thread a developer pretty much confirmed this or something similar) I want miniature fireballs to go off in an enclosed space i n my magical guns thus removing the need for powder altogether.
2. Since we can use multiple shots a round now as per number 1, change guns back to hitting normal AC like bows and crossbows since this makes more sense and is better for game continuity. Please read on...
2. Adding a deed that allows for hitting only the Touch AC for some amount of time, at least 1 round, I would prefer for a number of rounds equal to an ability score modifier (the same one used for grit)
3. Give perception (though truthfully, not having it doesn't mean people can't see their targets so I could do without. Perhaps if they didn't want to add it, then make a trait that was a gunner trait that gave perception as a class skill +1)
4. Grit should be Charisma based not Wisdom and should be at least 3 + Mod as so many other things are in this game.
5. More deed options that accomplish FULL deeds from start to finish, not just the beginning of a maneuver etc.
6. If it is insisted the called shot rules apply, make them work for almost all weapons or simply all weapons with perhaps some possible only with piercing, while others work w/ slash or bludge.
7. Send me $1500 dollars cash or cashiers check.
The problem with comparing it to ninja ki is that ninjas get half their level in ki on top of their modifier.
Gunslingers don't.
Let me put it another way; assuming you start at 14 wisdom - which is in of itself a bad idea since wisdom gives you nothing else - then at level 1 you will have 2 grit. And at level 20 you will have 2 grit.
Gunslingers don't feel like they get stronger as they level. Grit and deeds seem to be the big and main focus of the class, but they're more of a penalty then anything else. Maybe if wisdom went to more things it wouldn't be so bad, but as it stands, it almost feels like an attribute tax. You need high wisdom to use grit, but it gives you no actual benefits.
Grit is, by and far, the rarest class system in the game. You will easily have less grit then wizards have level 8 spells, less grit then paladins have smite evils, and far less grit then monks and ninjas have Ki. But pretty much all the deeds are weaker then those.
It just doesn't add up. Grit is the rarest class system...and deeds are the weakest.
The problem with comparing it to ninja ki is that ninjas get half their level in ki on top of their modifier.
Gunslingers don't.
Let me put it another way; assuming you start at 14 wisdom - which is in of itself a bad idea since wisdom gives you nothing else - then at level 1 you will have 2 grit. And at level 20 you will have 2 grit.
Gunslingers don't feel like they get stronger as they level. Grit and deeds seem to be the big and main focus of the class, but they're more of a penalty then anything else. Maybe if wisdom went to more things it wouldn't be so bad, but as it stands, it almost feels like an attribute tax. You need high wisdom to use grit, but it gives you no actual benefits.
Grit is, by and far, the rarest class system in the game. You will easily have less grit then wizards have level 8 spells, less grit then paladins have smite evils, and far less grit then monks and ninjas have Ki. But pretty much all the deeds are weaker then those.
It just doesn't add up. Grit is the rarest class system...and deeds are the weakest.
I agree, above I suggested 3 + Mod and it probably wouldn't be overboard to go 1/2 lvl + mod. I would have to play test 3+ first before moving up to the 1/2 lvl + mod.
you do know that when your gun jams/breaks or you run out of ammo in a encounter you didn't expect you pull out a sword that is going to do almost the same base damage as the pistol.
I think that gunslinger class take enough fantasy and reality to make a class that could be fun to play. I just keep think of nobles with pistols and rapiers, different types of ammo, cool daring/ridiculous acts and my players try to justify it.
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Let me put it another way; assuming you start at 14 wisdom - which is in of itself a bad idea since wisdom gives you nothing else - then at level 1 you will have 2 grit. And at level 20 you will have 2 grit.
You were giving out about the lack of perception earlier, and now your giving out about wisdom being used by the class, which perception is based on. Also, I'm not sure if you noticed this little thing called a
Will save. Kind of important as its usually a combat classes main weakness (Although I suppose brave and tough fixes that).
It just doesn't add up. Grit is the rarest class system...and deeds are the weakest.
I agree with this point, and I'd prefer upgraded deeds to more grit.
You were giving out about the lack of perception earlier, and now your giving out about wisdom being used by the class, which perception is based on. Also, I'm not sure if you noticed this little thing called a Will save. Kind of important as its usually a combat classes main weakness (Although I suppose brave and tough fixes that).
Except Perception continues to not be a class skill, and everyone has a will save. The issue is that wisdom doesn't "give" you anything, it's simply a neccesity for you to use your prime ability.
Paladins need charisma, yes, but it benefits them too. Wizards gain higher and higher DCs from their intelligence and bonus spells to boot. Monks don't just gain ki points from wisdom, they get AC and their own higher DC's.