So ummm does it seem strange to anyone else that a class that's based historicaly on a type of eastern assassin dosen't automaticly get the an assassinate skill?
Personaly I wouldn't have any problem with ninja's just getting Death Attack as per the assassin prestige class at 6th level (first level a rogue can go assassin). Rather then having an optional ability that is signifgantly better than the assassin's (1 round or study rather than 3).
just throwin that out there.
Torger
A ninja can be a spy too, I suppose. In that case, being over-specialized in killing people should not be automatic.
Just my 2c.
A ninja can be a spy too, I suppose. In that case, being over-specialized in killing people should not be automatic.
Just my 2c.
Fair enough but mechanicly anyone with good disguise, bluff, diplomacy and stealth skills can be a spy. Assassins for example.
I'll admit that maybe it's all the Tenchu but if I'm playing a Ninja I wants my stealth kills :P
Torger
Not to mention the ninja's assassinate ability just says you need to sneak attack. Which means you can perform this from range. The Assassin who's job it is to kill people must use a melee weapon and study for 3 rounds. Why would I ever play and assassin again?
-Venom
Director of Game Design
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Hi there all,
Assassination is a very common role for the ninja, but historically they were also known for their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons, and neutralize key enemies (aka assassinate). We tried to play off all of these themes to one extent or another without making any of them mandatory. You can build your ninja any way you want.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.
Think it differently. I've seen Death Attack being used efficently, but a lot of times 3 rounds are just too many.
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Director of Game Design
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I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.
Yet, the target must be denied his Dexterity. Flanked will not suffice. This is a huge difference in many encounters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Think it differently. I've seen Death Attack being used efficently, but a lot of times 3 rounds are just too many.
I'm not arguing that three rounds is or isn't too many, only that Assassins needing three rounds while ninjas only need one is probably not fair.
Yet, the target must be denied his Dexterity. Flanked will not suffice. This is a huge difference in many encounters.
I hadn't noticed that. I still suspect that I'll disagree, but I'll admit that I should get around to actually playtesting and see the difference firsthand before deciding.
As part of the spy aspect, what if they had the ability to emulate the class abilities of other classes?
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As part of the spy aspect, what if they had the ability to emulate the class abilities of other classes?
Not a bad idea, though of course very dangerous from a game balance point of view.
My first question would be: what class abilities would a Ninja need to emulate? Specific examples in specific circumstances - something that a Ninja with Use Magic Device and a Wand of First Level Spell couldn't do reliably.
As part of the spy aspect, what if they had the ability to emulate the class abilities of other classes?
Sometimes is enough the bluff skill or UMD a wand with ana ppropriate spell I think :)
Emulate class features is a very dangerous ground...
I think part of the problem for me might also be the fact that the ninja has to wait till 10th level to get a stealth kill option while the assassin is doin it up at 6th.
Not that I'm sugesting that assassinate be a general ninja trick. it's way to good for that. But i would like to see something so that they're not waiting for 4 extra levels... I mean I supose they could multiclass into assassin themselves but I don't think I'd be able to look down at my character sheet and see Ninja/Assassin and still look at myself in the mirror.
Torger
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.
I don't think the Ninja should be held back by the Assassin. The Assassin is a godawful prestige class noone should use, and limiting newer classes to past mistakes is a bad idea. The dev gang has improved a lot since the release of the core ruleset, and I'd much rather see them give an errata or update of some wonky PRCs such as the Assassin, Shadowdancer and Arcane Trickster than nerfing the new class options.
I think part of the problem for me might also be the fact that the ninja has to wait till 10th level to get a stealth kill option while the assassin is doin it up at 6th.
Not that I'm sugesting that assassinate be a general ninja trick. it's way to good for that. But i would like to see something so that they're not waiting for 4 extra levels... I mean I supose they could multiclass into assassin themselves but I don't think I'd be able to look down at my character sheet and see Ninja/Assassin and still look at myself in the mirror.
Torger
You would also need a decent intelligence score to make the DC work.
So here are some concerns about Assassinate. Both Assassinate and the Assassin's Death Attack have this clause "The death attack fails if the target detects the assassin/ninja or recognizes the assassin/ninja as an enemy". As I understand it, this clause makes it so that both the ninja and assassin need to orchestrate a surprise attack to be able to use their features. You either need to be hidden or disguised to make it work.
This seems to make the denied Dex limitation of the ninja's Assassinate somewhat moot, except for the case of uncanny dodge. Does an Assassinate attempt on a target with uncanny dodge automatically fail? Would it require a feint to bypass the uncanny dodge? Does feinting reveal the ninja as an enemy, thus causing the attempt to fail anyway?
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.I don't think the Ninja should be held back by the Assassin. The Assassin is a godawful prestige class noone should use, and limiting newer classes to past mistakes is a bad idea. The dev gang has improved a lot since the release of the core ruleset, and I'd much rather see them give an errata or update of some wonky PRCs such as the Assassin, Shadowdancer and Arcane Trickster than nerfing the new class options.
But that way lies the begining of power creep. If what came before is disregarded then it won't take long to sucumb to the idea that what is new must be shinier and cooler than what was old and every new class will be just a little tougher than the old ones until no one ever even looks at the classes in the core rule book anymore because they're so godawful. That's what drove 3.X into the ground for me.
So I for one think that the Ninja should definately be compared to and made reasonably balanced with both the rogue and the rogue/assassin.
Torger
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.Yet, the target must be denied his Dexterity. Flanked will not suffice. This is a huge difference in many encounters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
With all due respect, Jason, why would that matter at all? Neither the assassin's death attack or the ninja's assassinate abilities can be used once the enemy recognizes you as an enemy. I don't see how someone is going to get next to a target with a weapon drawn, ALONG WITH another ally of theirs on the target's opposite side with THEIR weapon drawn without the target recognizing that he might be in danger.
Essentially, both abilities are really only limited to ambushes/surprise attacks and flanking almost never comes into play.
However, the ninja can assassinate a target from range, unlike the assassin who HAS to be using a melee weapon.
Does Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge make a person immune to the ninja's assassinate ability?
I've decided to do a quick comparison of differences...
- A ninja can activate his ability in two less standard actions (effectively one round versus three).
- A ninja can assassinate from range, whereas the assassin has to be using a melee weapon.
- A ninja does not have to take assassinate (instead going to another ability), whereas the less versatile assassin is forced to take death attack.
- A ninja has 5 more levels to put towards the Death DC (ninja 20 vs rogue 5/assassin 10/master spy 5) though the assassin gets to add his ENTIRE assassin level rather than half. This means they are exactly tied except for the instance where an assassin also takes levels of master spy.
- A ninja MUST cause his opponent to lose his Dexterity bonus during a sneak attack, whereas the assassin need only qualify for sneak attack. (Note that this allows for flanking in the RARE circumstances that the target doesn't recognize his armed flankers as enemies).
- A ninja's assassinate ability can only kill, whereas an assassin's death attack can ALSO paralyze.
- A ninja cannot gain assassinate until 10th-level, whereas an assassin can have death attack as early as 6th-level, a full four levels earlier.
- A ninja's assassinate ability is Charisma-based whereas the assassin's death attack ability is Intelligence-based. (Unless you are going the sorcerer/arcane trickster route, most roleplayers seem to think of Intelligence as being the better ability score to boost.)
- A ninja who fails to assassinate his target cannot try again for an entire day, whereas an assassin can try again as early as 3 rounds later. (Though that is unlikely as he is clearly a recognized threat at that point.)
That's all I can think of. Let me know if I missed any. I will also be reposting these comparisons into a dedicated thread so people can find them more easily.
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.I don't think the Ninja should be held back by the Assassin. The Assassin is a godawful prestige class noone should use, and limiting newer classes to past mistakes is a bad idea. The dev gang has improved a lot since the release of the core ruleset, and I'd much rather see them give an errata or update of some wonky PRCs such as the Assassin, Shadowdancer and Arcane Trickster than nerfing the new class options.But that way lies the begining of power creep. If what came before is disregarded then it won't take long to sucumb to the idea that what is new must be shinier and cooler than what was old and every new class will be just a little tougher than the old ones until no one ever even looks at the classes in the core rule book anymore because they're so godawful. That's what drove 3.X into the ground for me.
So I for one think that the Ninja should definately be compared to and made reasonably balanced with both the rogue and the rogue/assassin.
Torger
I fully agree that the ninja should be balanced with regard to the rogue. They are, after all, two sides of the same coin, and I always found that the rogue was a pretty well designed class. But you can't really call it power creep when you take into account just how bad the assassin is. Being shinier and cooler than the assassin isn't much of an achievement, nearly every class is.
I fully agree that the ninja should be balanced with regard to the rogue. They are, after all, two sides of the same coin, and I always found that the rogue was a pretty well designed class. But you can't really call it power creep when you take into account just how bad the assassin is. Being shinier and cooler than the assassin isn't much of an achievement, nearly every class is.
I respectfully disagree with that asesment. I'm curently playing a Fighter 4/Rogue 2/Assassin 2 with plans to take assassin all the way to 10 and for me sure I've lost some of the bells and whistles of the rogue (though my damage output is about the same) and sure bonuses to poison saves really aren't that sexy and sure death attack is tough to get off but all that seems about right to me and has been totaly worth the trade off every time I manage to make it work. Melee's getting a save or die effect ought to be a big deal.
I think it's largely a matter of taste.
Torger
Hi there all,
Assassination is a very common role for the ninja, but historically they were also known for their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons, and neutralize key enemies (aka assassinate). We tried to play off all of these themes to one extent or another without making any of them mandatory. You can build your ninja any way you want.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So, a ninja of Good alignment would be able to assassinate with no alignment issues?
I can see where "...their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons..." are actions any alignment would consider suitable and useful. I'm not so sure about assassination for the Good leaders of Good ninjas.
Hi there all,
Assassination is a very common role for the ninja, but historically they were also known for their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons, and neutralize key enemies (aka assassinate). We tried to play off all of these themes to one extent or another without making any of them mandatory. You can build your ninja any way you want.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo PublishingSo, a ninja of Good alignment would be able to assassinate with no alignment issues?
I can see where "...their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons..." are actions any alignment would consider suitable and useful. I'm not so sure about assassination for the Good leaders of Good ninjas.
is it really that different than sneak attacking them to death?
I think the assassinate ability being an option is fine. I don't think that it should only take one round of studying while The Assassin needs three rounds to study. That makes ninjas way better assassins than assassins are.Yet, the target must be denied his Dexterity. Flanked will not suffice. This is a huge difference in many encounters.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Flanked doesn't matter either for an assassin as they need to either not recognize you as an enemy or be denied the bonus last time I looked (atleast thats what I remember but I could be wrong). Not to mention it is still melee only for assassin's and ninjas can do any range (with a trick that expands range). Just way more efficient. 3 rounds is often times too long. 4 rounds if you started from round one of combat and they opponent can't be aware of you, which means 3 rounds of nothing and then a very simple fortitude save (easy because the assassin save will be lower in comparison to the ninja most of the time due to level difference) is not appetizing, and its their main schtick.
I haven't played the Ninja in comparison to the Assassin quite enough to say for sure, but it feels a little off with Assassinate being at level 10. Mostly, it emphasizes the weakness of the Assassin class. I tried it head-to-head.
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Tiefling Rogue 5/Assassin 7 -VS- Tiefling Ninja 12: FIGHT!
Setting: One heavily guarded compound. One target. One itinerary.
Attempt 1: Assassin tries to sneak in at night by climbing the wall. The target has a room upstairs and should be asleep according to the itinerary. Fails the climb check. Fails the stealth check. Runs like hell in a hail of arrows. FAIL!
Attempt 2: Assassins are clearly meant for blending in rather than hiding in shadows. That's how he's been played in the past or he tends to fail (see Rd 1, for instance). He dons a disguise, hides his weapon, enters the compound during the day, lies to a lot of people in the compound, finds the target, engages him in conversation for a while, Assassinates the target, gets spotted, gets hacked by a few guards while running for his life. Marginal success, but he made it look hard. Lots of skill checks to potentially fail. Lots of skills to evenly apportion.
The Ninja version? He waits until dark, spends 1 Ki point to climb onto the roof like a boss, uses Vanishing trick for free to sneak around like a boss, quietly picks a lock, and quietly Assassinates the target using an f'ing shuriken like a smug bastard. FATALITY! He then spends one more Ki point to Vanish again and sneak away before anyone even knew he was there. He rolled half as often and barely felt challenged.
NINJA WINS! (Assassin class will be getting a homebrew retooling cuz he looks like crap now and I'm not letting anyone switch out 7 of their levels.)
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Also, no one seems to be mentioning that a 6th level Assassin (being a prestige class with strict prerequisites) is actually supposed to be around CL 10 or 11 anyway (I can't remember exactly right now). Am I missing something? Did they change that? Don't you have to be a few levels as something roguish to even be Assassin 1? So really, the Ninja gets his somewhat superior Assissinate ability at about the same character level and some of you are just telling sweet, sweet lies by saying the Assassin gets it 4 levels earlier. STOP MAKING MY PAIZO MESSAGEBOARD A PAIZO MESSAGEBOARD OF LIES!!!
rogue5/assassain1 (lvl 6) gets death attack
ninja10 gets assassinate
4 levels earlier for assassain
assassins aren't known as being infiltrators so the scenario somewhat favors the ninja.
While the Shinobi of Kaidan will be archetypes of Bard, Monk, Ranger, Rogue and Sorcerer, I will be adding a Ninja prestige class.
In my writeup of Ninja, they won't get Sneak Attack, as that is precision damage for combat. Ninja should always avoid combat if they can. My Ninja will get Death Attack instead, as that is far more appropriate, and better fits a covert operator making an assassination attempt if that's what his mission calls for.
But in agreeing with Jim Buhlman, Ninja were spies, scouts, provocateurs, recovery specialists, and assassins. Assassination was not their sole activity, and perhaps a minimal one vs. their primary activity of spying.
I don't think Sneak Attack is especially Ninja-ish, however, my rogue archetype will be very close to the Ultimate Combat Ninja, but as stated, this is just one class archetype for shinobi, not the only one.
is it really that different than sneak attacking them to death?
So, a ninja of Good alignment would be able to assassinate with no alignment issues?I can see where "...their ability to infiltrate the enemy, disguise themselves, sabotage the enemy's fortifications and weapons..." are actions any alignment would consider suitable and useful. I'm not so sure about assassination for the Good leaders of Good ninjas.
Sure, sneak attack is a form of combat expertise to cause greater damage in combat just like the ranger's favorite enemy, inquisitor's judgement, cavalier's challange or the paladin's smite.
Assassination is murder of an individual. It is not combat.