My first impression is that 11 gp per shot is pretty danged expensive for the character's key ability. It's 220 times as much as an archer pays, and 110 times more than a crossbow sniper.
It's really hard to understand why an ounce or two of lead costs 1 gp -- especially since these seem to be muskets & other smoothbore weapons, meaning a bullet is just a sphere of lead.
Sling bullets were traditionally lead, too, IIRC, and 10 sling bullets are 1 sp -- so firearm bullets, which (based on weight) are smaller than sling bullets, are a 100 times as expensive. Sling bullets are a half pound, per PF; musket balls are about an ounce -- so pound for pound, firearm bullets are 800 times more expensive than sling bullets. Why?
I can understand a rarity argument for gunpowder's expense, and even a game balance one; but the cost of bullets seems wrong.
All-in-all, the total ammo cost seems like it would make the Secret Stash Deed nigh-mandatory, and make SOP be to burn all remaining grit at the end of the day to recover some ammo.
Unfortunately, I see that the sidebar says those rules are set in stone.
Perhaps the gunslinger should get an ability to let them get ammo cheaper somehow, if only for their own personal use in their guns?
And maybe lower the price of bullets (1 sp buying 10? That matches sling bullets, and still makes firearm bullets more than sling bullets, since the 10 of the latter is 5 lbs of lead vs. 0.5-1 lb for the former).
My first impression is that 11 gp per shot is pretty danged expensive for the character's key ability. It's 220 times as much as an archer pays, and 110 times more than a crossbow sniper.
It's really hard to understand why an ounce or two of lead costs 1 gp -- especially since these seem to be muskets & other smoothbore weapons, meaning a bullet is just a sphere of lead.
Sling bullets were traditionally lead, too, IIRC, and 10 sling bullets are 1 sp -- so firearm bullets, which (based on weight) are smaller than sling bullets, are a 100 times as expensive. Sling bullets are a half pound, per PF; musket balls are about an ounce -- so pound for pound, firearm bullets are 800 times more expensive than sling bullets. Why?
I can understand a rarity argument for gunpowder's expense, and even a game balance one; but the cost of bullets seems wrong.
All-in-all, the total ammo cost seems like it would make the Secret Stash Deed nigh-mandatory, and make SOP be to burn all remaining grit at the end of the day to recover some ammo.
Unfortunately, I see that the sidebar says those rules are set in stone.
Perhaps the gunslinger should get an ability to let them get ammo cheaper somehow, if only for their own personal use in their guns?
Craft skills, 1/3 the price. At higher levels, fabricate.
I think It's an attempt to prevent the Gunslinger from being overpowered, but I can deffinitly Agree that The price is too much, especaily for each shot. Let us pick up bullets on the cheap..... But make black powder hard to come by... perhaps Make it an alchemy item that a trained gunslinger can make cheeper than ususal... Not sure.
anyway, just my 2cp.
While the bullets may be a bit overpriced, overall, it should be expensive to shoot a gun. If not, then you might as well replace all ranged weapons with guns, since they get to ignore armor at short range.
i don't mind the idea that bullets and gunpowder cost so much, i just wish the gunslinger got it at a discount some how. the fact that it is a core element to the class it should be a lot more assessable for them than anyone else.
Except that they're not very ranged, as far as ranged weapons go. A pistol's max range is less than a single range increment for a composite longbow, a rifle's is under 2, and you're taking major penalties that far out.
You're looking at barely longer range than thrown weapons (equal to pistol in some cases), so I don't think bows have anything to fear (crossbows do...but from bows, not guns).
I think they cost so much as a balance, although i might be wrong (i hope i am wrong).
... rest of post deleted, going to start another thread on Touch attack...
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Except that they're not very ranged, as far as ranged weapons go. A pistol's max range is less than a single range increment for a composite longbow, a rifle's is under 2, and you're taking major penalties that far out.
You're looking at barely longer range than thrown weapons (equal to pistol in some cases), so I don't think bows have anything to fear (crossbows do...but from bows, not guns).
Or in the case of Chakrams, pistols have a shorter range..
RE: Price - I think that getting a free gun or two and 50 bullets is pretty fair, allowing you to purchase a good amount of other equipment as a result. Also, by the time you've gone through 50 bullets, unless you are taking two shots/round, you'll likely have enough to have leveled up and/or focused skill points on Craft (Ammunition) or Craft (Alchemy) to put together the necessary ammo on the cheap.
RE: Range - It's dang hard to hit a moving target with something that explodes in your hand. I think 20 feet makes plenty of sense.
RE: PriceOnly one problem with crafting your own ammo. The craft system is rediculous. Come on it can take a 1 week or more to make a single vial of acid. Is the whole party going to allow the gunslinger to take a couple of weeks between each adventure just so he has ammo to do what his class does?
I agree, it's pretty crazy. In our campaign, I'm having a hard time coming up with 6 weeks to train a new animal companion after the last one died. But I suppose that's a trade off that has to be made, and depends on whether the GM is trying to make it an action-packed every-day-is-life-or-death sort of thing. If the other PCs have things they also want to craft, then it makes a bit more sense. If not, the gunslinger has to shell out for good bullets. Depends on the party.
I'm not sure why anyone would not take the Secret Stash feat, particularly for PFS play or lower level Gunslingers. After throwing together a Gunslinger character I couldn't justify a different lvl 1 feat. I think this could be a flaw (no feat should be a must have), and is best fixed by changing ammo or powder costs to affordable levels for low level characters.
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What is to stop me from just cramming glass and metal shards into my musket with some black powder and firing it as a make shift shotgun? Isn't that the same as what they used to do back in the day when they ran out of cannonballs and stuff? Just toss in anything metal we've got with some gun powder and let it rip.
What is to stop me from just cramming glass and metal shards into my musket with some black powder and firing it as a make shift shotgun? Isn't that the same as what they used to do back in the day when they ran out of cannonballs and stuff? Just toss in anything metal we've got with some gun powder and let it rip.
Non-bullet (oval or round) shaped items tend to have poor range and aim. But, yeah, that's the principle of the blunderbuss.
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What is to stop me from just cramming glass and metal shards into my musket with some black powder and firing it as a make shift shotgun? Isn't that the same as what they used to do back in the day when they ran out of cannonballs and stuff? Just toss in anything metal we've got with some gun powder and let it rip.Non-bullet (oval or round) shaped items tend to have poor range and aim. But, yeah, that's the principle of the blunderbuss.
You have a fairly poor range anyways...may as well just step up and fire that rifle of glass into that wizard's chest.
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Okay, after doing some research and math I came to the conclusion, that when using a .71 caliber circa 1720 musket as a base the average lead ball used 1.231 ounces of lead. 1 cubic inch of lead is 6.55 ounces which means you have about 5.3 rounds per cubic inch using all possible lead. This comes out to 12.9465 bullets per pound of lead.
So, I was trying to ascertain the price of a pound of lead in the Pathfinder system, because if it is close to the cost of copper or silver (somewhere around 3-5 gold) then the rules pertaining to the cost per bullet in the playtest are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.
Of course, we're talking crafting here, so if I have a set of artisan's tools to craft bullets and a simple round bullet (around a DC 5) would not be very difficult or time consuming to make with a cast-iron crucible and a camp fire. Given 2 pounds of lead and no waste (as you can melt down your sprue and clippings to use again) I could make 25 bullets for 6-10 gold. Lead is notoriously less valuable than either copper, silver, or even gold in a pre-industrial society and this would drop the price considerably just on raw material costs.
The powder cost also seems fairly high, but I've got some basic thoughts here. The same musket we were using above needed 70-100 grains of black powder per shot. There's approximately 7000 grains per pound. So, you're looking, at most, at around 70-100 shots per pound. This means that any alchemist worth his salt(peter) could manufacture this given the base materials of charcoal (3 parts), sulfur (2 parts), and saltpeter (15 parts). Saltpeter is rare, but you can make it from bat guano if needed and, let's be honest, what good wizard doesn't walk around without a handful of bat guano in his pocket?
What do you think?
im trying to figure out carring weights for gun powder and bullets. thoughts?
Okay, after doing some research and math I came to the conclusion, that when using a .71 caliber circa 1720 musket as a base the average lead ball used 1.231 ounces of lead. 1 cubic inch of lead is 6.55 ounces which means you have about 5.3 rounds per cubic inch using all possible lead. This comes out to 12.9465 bullets per pound of lead.
So, I was trying to ascertain the price of a pound of lead in the Pathfinder system, because if it is close to the cost of copper or silver (somewhere around 3-5 gold) then the rules pertaining to the cost per bullet in the playtest are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.
Of course, we're talking crafting here, so if I have a set of artisan's tools to craft bullets and a simple round bullet (around a DC 5) would not be very difficult or time consuming to make with a cast-iron crucible and a camp fire. Given 2 pounds of lead and no waste (as you can melt down your sprue and clippings to use again) I could make 25 bullets for 6-10 gold. Lead is notoriously less valuable than either copper, silver, or even gold in a pre-industrial society and this would drop the price considerably just on raw material costs.
The powder cost also seems fairly high, but I've got some basic thoughts here. The same musket we were using above needed 70-100 grains of black powder per shot. There's approximately 7000 grains per pound. So, you're looking, at most, at around 70-100 shots per pound. This means that any alchemist worth his salt(peter) could manufacture this given the base materials of charcoal (3 parts), sulfur (2 parts), and saltpeter (15 parts). Saltpeter is rare, but you can make it from bat guano if needed and, let's be honest, what good wizard doesn't walk around without a handful of bat guano in his pocket?
What do you think?
Really you wouldn't even need the crucible for the bullets. Just a fire, a press, and a bucket of water. Heat pieces of lead in the fire and use the press to press them into a sphere then dump it in the bucket of water to cool it.
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RE: Price - I think that getting a free gun or two and 50 bullets is pretty fair, allowing you to purchase a good amount of other equipment as a result. Also, by the time you've gone through 50 bullets, unless you are taking two shots/round, you'll likely have enough to have leveled up and/or focused skill points on Craft (Ammunition) or Craft (Alchemy) to put together the necessary ammo on the cheap.
RE: Range - It's dang hard to hit a moving target with something that explodes in your hand. I think 20 feet makes plenty of sense.
Re: Price: If I am reading the document correctly, you either get a musket with 50 bullets and blackpowder cgharges (worth 2,050 gp) or two pistols, no ammo or blackpowder (2,000 gp).
So, getting 20 shots (total) for your two pistols is actually more than "standard" starting gold would allow. Especially if you want anything else.
So, I am probably just going to pack up my heirloom musket after I burn off the initial ammo, and think about using Weapon Finesse and a rapier....
Re: Range: After 20 feet, your attack value drops by at least 1 (assuming PBS), while you also change to regular (usually higher) AC instead of touch AC. After 30', you lose another 1, if you have PBS.
A longbow loses 1 at 30', assuming PBS, but doesn't lose any more until 100-110', if not more (far shot, Hunter's Eye trait, etc.) where a pistol can no longer have any chance of firing, and is only -2 where a musket is going to have serious issues hitting.
I can underrstand the short range, but it really makes it tough to be a gunslinger, since any enemy within 20' is likely to wind up right next to you. And your AC is going to suffer because you have to burn so much money on ammo that you can't afford the more typical enhancements that a standard fighter would be getting at the same level.
Re: Ammo Prices in general:
Assuming 4 rounds of combat for the "standard" more-or-less at-level encounter (given my high-level non-PFS game is going into our third week, and something over 10 rounds, on a single encounter, I could be understating the average duration), at low level, a gunslinger will be spending from 22 gp (musket, every other round) to 88 gp (dual wielded pistols, rapid reload) per combat, whereas an equivalent fighter Archer would be using up 4 sp worth of arrows (rapid shot, no arrows recovered) during the same encounters, and a melee type would be burning no gp for ammo, it generally hurts the gunslinger seriously by the costs.
So:
Melee fighter: potions of CLW, if the Cleric doesn't take care of it for lower cost options
Archer fighters 4 sp, a rare potion of CLW pending CLerical intervention (easier to stay out of melee if you don't try for PBS range bonuses)
Gunslinger: 22-88 gp, plus potions of CLW, again with the Cleric clause.
That is per encounter, not per level. The potion cost will go up as the levels do, to cover increased healing needs. The archer will spend more per encounter on arrows, as his iteratives go up, and he gets special material arrows. The melee fighter will mainly be spending on minor healing. The gunslinger will be increasing his per encounter costs, but that is a significantly higher increase, per encounter, than for even a max-rate archer.
20th level, 4 iteratives:
Archer: 7 arrows per round, 4 rounds, 28 arrows, 1.4 GP
Melee: 4+ attacks per round, no cost
Gunslinger: 6 shots per round, I think, 4 rounds, 66 gp per round, 264 gp per encounter.
Okay, after doing some research and math I came to the conclusion, that when using a .71 caliber circa 1720 musket as a base the average lead ball used 1.231 ounces of lead. 1 cubic inch of lead is 6.55 ounces which means you have about 5.3 rounds per cubic inch using all possible lead. This comes out to 12.9465 bullets per pound of lead.
So, I was trying to ascertain the price of a pound of lead in the Pathfinder system, because if it is close to the cost of copper or silver (somewhere around 3-5 gold) then the rules pertaining to the cost per bullet in the playtest are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.
Of course, we're talking crafting here, so if I have a set of artisan's tools to craft bullets and a simple round bullet (around a DC 5) would not be very difficult or time consuming to make with a cast-iron crucible and a camp fire. Given 2 pounds of lead and no waste (as you can melt down your sprue and clippings to use again) I could make 25 bullets for 6-10 gold. Lead is notoriously less valuable than either copper, silver, or even gold in a pre-industrial society and this would drop the price considerably just on raw material costs.
The powder cost also seems fairly high, but I've got some basic thoughts here. The same musket we were using above needed 70-100 grains of black powder per shot. There's approximately 7000 grains per pound. So, you're looking, at most, at around 70-100 shots per pound. This means that any alchemist worth his salt(peter) could manufacture this given the base materials of charcoal (3 parts), sulfur (2 parts), and saltpeter (15 parts). Saltpeter is rare, but you can make it from bat guano if needed and, let's be honest, what good wizard doesn't walk around without a handful of bat guano in his pocket?
What do you think?
The Powder need to fill about 60 .44 magnum rounds is about 1 lb so this is very close.