Ok so first off katanas are as individual as a suit of armor for a knight.
that being said they can be of varying sizes.
an interesting fact to know is the WW2 era katanas were actually cut down to make them shorter for the military's officers (can you imagine that? the ruined those weapons! why not just make new short ones)
So what "we" currently think of modern katanas, are actually much shorter than feudal era katanas.
a little historical information on the ninja. They used katanas too.
yes it was "illegal" for any non-samurai to use a katana, something punishable by death, but so was being a ninja. so what was the draw back of a ninja using a katana again?
Also there has often been much speculation that many ninja WERE samurai or at the very least ronin, and that they simply led double lives.
making a law against guns, simply means only the cops and the criminals have them. Making a law against katana means only the samurai and the ninja have them!
the wakizashi was the counterpart to the katana, and the term was refered to (the pair) as daisho meaning long and short.
Modern katana sets often have a tanto (three blades on a stand) but apparently that is a modernization used to just sell more stuff to us silly americans and the tanto was never really party of any katana or daisho set.
The 'to' commonly referred to as ninja-to or ninja sword is also, apparently a made up weapon from hollywood.
We all know that only a ninja can kill a ninja, but did you know that once this became common knowledge, a young man from Tokyo turned a well known invulnerability into a business venture, applying for a ninja clan license from the Shinobi Local 401.
Once his license was firmly established, our young businessman proceeded to make a fortune by selling membership to his ninja clan to everyone with a beef against ninja.
Sure, it takes a ninja to kill a ninja . . . but it only took a liberal application of cash to become a ninja.
This marked the end of the "classic" era of ninja, but saw the beginning of a new kind of ninja . . . the business ninja.
For more on the rise of the business ninja, as well as the legend of the katana that became a ninja master, be sure to tune into next's weeks episode of Ninja, Katanas, and How the East Was Won, on the History Channel.
We all know that only a ninja can kill a ninja...
Have you been watching Adventure Time with Finn & Jake?
Lisa Rocks!
We all know that only a ninja can kill a ninja...Have you been watching Adventure Time with Finn & Jake?
Lisa Rocks!
See here I thought we were going back to some Sho Koshugi Revenge of the Ninja action.
See here I thought we were going back to some Sho Koshugi Revenge of the Ninja action.We all know that only a ninja can kill a ninja...Have you been watching Adventure Time with Finn & Jake?
Lisa Rocks!
I have to admit, I'm a child of 80s ninja movies, not nearly as familiar with Adventure Time.
There was a ninja episode, recently.
Lisa Rocks!
I have to admit, I'm a child of 80s ninja movies, not nearly as familiar with Adventure Time.See here I thought we were going back to some Sho Koshugi Revenge of the Ninja action.We all know that only a ninja can kill a ninja...Have you been watching Adventure Time with Finn & Jake?
Lisa Rocks!
As am I sir. As am I.
As am I sir. As am I.
I used to love being able to stay over at my sister's, because she would actually let me rent ninja movies from the video store, which my mother absolutely hated . . . ;)
I used to love being able to stay over at my sister's, because she would actually let me rent ninja movies from the video store, which my mother absolutely hated . . . ;)As am I sir. As am I.
It was when we got HBO for me. The folks got a second TV and ninja time (and horror movie time) was on.
Of course I also watched a lot of Commander USA's groovy movies and Night Flight I think that was where I first saw five deadly venom's.
Director of Games
|
Just as a warning, I have seen far too many weapon debate threads burst into flames. This thread is on thin ice.
I should note the crowd here that we will be striving for a balanced weapon, even if that means it is not 100% historically accurate. I know that a true, well forged katana is an amazing weapon, but in a world with dragons and magic, we have to keep things balanced and in perspective.
Not to say that historical context does not have value here, but we have some broader concerns.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'd just like to say I was just joking around in this thread, and if anyone took any of my comments as anything other than me being in a goofy mood tonight, I apologize.
|
Katana
Cost: 1200 gp
Damage (S): 4d8
Damage (M): 5d12
Critical: 12-20 / ×8
Range: -
Weight: 5 lbs.
Type: S and P
Special: Ninja/Samurai
All katanas are considered masterwork weapons. Any "katana" that is made and does not meet masterwork requirements is instead treated as one of those dull pointless clubs that barbarians from the West have the temerity to call swords. Katanas can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. A katana can cut through any substance, no matter how hard or thick it is. This includes magical effects. A critical hit from a katana has a 97% chance of outright killing the victim, regardless of hit points. If this occurs, the victim is cut so badly that he can never be resurrected by any means...even direct divine intervention. Katana's automatically nullify any divine or magical defenses. This includes those of all deities. Katanas ignore armor, and any bonuses towards the target's AC. Anyone holding a katana automatically gains 10 levels in the class of their choosing. If the class of their choosing is Ninja or Samurai, they instead gain 25 levels, and automatically become greater gods.
Since no one has mentioned it yet, I can't download the data at work so what ARE the stats on the katana?
There aren't any, but the class write ups mention them, and say to use bastards swords until Ultimate Combat comes out.
They also mention naginatas (treat as glaive) and wakizashi (treat as short sword).
|
We've always houserules the katana ourselves as not liking it back in the day. These days since pathfinder, we've use the small sized Elven Curveblood and I'd like to suggest this to be true. Basically, a medium exotic weapoin doing 1d8 damage, 18-20 crit, and usable with weapon finesse, even used two handed.
Just throwing that out there.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's no reason at all for them to have different stats than the weapons we already have. The equivalences given are perfectly fine. If katanas get their own stats in Ultimate Combat, I'm going to want to kick a weeaboo in the teeth.
This thread is on thin ice.
A Katana will cut through threads and ice with equal ease due to its ultimate strength and sharpness!!
Especially if wielded by a ninja
I have seen it on youtube somewhere.
;)
I always thought that all Japanese sword smiths were just wizards capable of casting Vorpal, Speed, and Keen on the Adamantine Masterwork Bastard swords that they crafted. It was just common.
Then again, the old Japanese and the new Japanese aren't the same since these Japanese aren't wizards and can't do crazy ninja magic things.
Take that Darwin!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A stock standard katana should be like a stock standard longsword/mace/etc, irrespective of what stats the weapon ends up having.
A well-made one should be masterwork and give slight bonuses as per any other masterwork weapon.
A really, really well made one, crafted by a master sword maker, folded over itself to make a million layers of steel etc etc should be, in Pathfinder terms, a +1 or +2 or + whatever. No different to any other weapon.
My family has a stock standard WW2 Japanese Army issue katana and it is not better constructed than the stock standard Dutch East Indies colonial era cavalry sabre we have. Most swords were simply mass produced. The rich would commission better ones - in game terms masterwork or magical - from a master craftsman.
There is nothing amazing about normal katanas, but there is lots amazing about really, really well made ones.
|
It's so sad to see irrelevant topics created because someone was too lazy to wiki or google something.
MW Bastard Swords and MW Short Swords make decent make shift Japanese themed weapons. But they're not perfect. I'm no swordsman but I've seen enough Kung-Fu movies and been to enough ren-fairs to know there's a difference. About 1/2 to 1/3 of the weight. I have been thinking of elven curve blades as katanas since I laid my hands on the Pathfinder Core Rulebook since day one. I'd be shocked to see much different from Ultimate Combat.
I am in the katana = bastard sword camp. I agree that the curvature of the blade and the general quality of such a weapon makes them superior to a more common longsword, hence the d10 over the d8. I also can understand them being a fraction of the weight, though I can't say that I've ever held them and compared the heft.
But I don't think they are the super-weapons they're made out to be. Katana = bastard sword works for our table just fine, in fact, we like it.
Our disagreement is with firearms. But that's another thread, in another board.
After going through the entire thread I'm pretty sure this is the case:
All japanese katana smiths had Master Craftsman. They realized that Vorpal, Speed, and Keen are pretty awesome enchants so they put that on each masterwork mithral bastard sword. Then handed them out! They also slapped on +3 for good luck. Everything else was just part of the samurai himself running around with quick draw, improved sunder, and improved vital strike.
Of all this I am sure.
I am in the katana = bastard sword camp. I agree that the curvature of the blade and the general quality of such a weapon makes them superior to a more common longsword, hence the d10 over the d8.
While the curvature gives them a good cutting edge, it is in my (limited) experience far harder to do thrusts with a curved blade, and since it only has a single edge, this further cuts down on the number of possible angles you could strike from. This is why I've always disliked the higher crit rate/lower damage of curved weapons such as the falchion or scimitar; I would rather have seen the opposite, higher damage but worse crit.
In keeping with the D&D standard of curved weapon = lower damage, higher threat I'd make katanas "bastardly exotic", 1d8, 18-20 crit, and wakizashis act like scimitars.
If I got to choose myself, I'd make longswords act like scimitars and scimitars act like longswords, swap kukris and shortswords, katanas and bastard swords, greatswords and falchions and so on. That would also help bringing back the straight swords as the most common for fighter-types, which I kinda like; never liked how crit rate is so important every high-level fighter uses a falchion or scimitar.
That would also help bringing back the straight swords as the most common for fighter-types, which I kinda like; never liked how crit rate is so important every high-level fighter uses a falchion or scimitar.
Sounds like personal experience to me; never seen that problem myself. I would argue that people I have played with favor consistent damage over crit-rate any day.
That would also help bringing back the straight swords as the most common for fighter-types, which I kinda like; never liked how crit rate is so important every high-level fighter uses a falchion or scimitar.Sounds like personal experience to me; never seen that problem myself. I would argue that people I have played with favor consistent damage over crit-rate any day.
At very low levels yes, and though I mostly play at low levels it doesn't take that long before high crit starts rewarding more than high base damage.
Basically, the higher flat +damage you have the more you gain on having a high-crit weapon. At level 1-3, high base damage is usually better, 4-6 they're about equal, and level 7+ the high crit weapon deals more average damage. Add to this that spike damage is generally better since it gives you a larger chance to drop the opponent before he can act, it's more effective against enemies with high damage reduction, and the existance of critical feats; basically, there's lots of small things that makes high-crit weapons better even at levels 4-6.
They shouldn't even be separate weapons. Bastard sword and short sword simulate them just fine.
Another +1, but I agree they should all be mastwerwork.
|
/sigh...
Ok firstly im not a historian, metalsmith, weaponsmith or Mr. Smith but peoples love of the katana over other swords is completely fictional.
China (warring states 400 BC) was full of untold wonder not seen by western eyes. the great wall created almost a completely seperate world almost and the way they did things where almost alien.
however, this didnt make them superior.
What the D&D system lacks is a robust and balanced weapon identification system. there shouldnt be greatswords, longswords, shortswords, and bastardswords mixed in with wakizashi, katanas, zweihanders, or other culturally named weapons. swords should be categorised by length, shape and the number of cutting edges.
Weapons should also be broken down into construction quality. not only in its manufacture but also in the materials used.
This is where the Katana and Bastard Sword differ and I refer to my warring states comment above... The chinese used quenching techniques to create steel in 400BC but records show Steel has been crafted since 1400BC in Africa using a completely different method. Chinese steel was considered weaker but more flexible and was common in many armor plate of the time) The japanese used the same techniques as the chinese for most steel production but the construction technique used in japanese swords (katanas) mixed iron with charcoal (Tamahagane) to add strength to the blade. such conscruction required a great deal of skill just to get the ore composition correct even before it was worked into a weapon. The actual construction of a Katana takes many days and this creates the masterwork hypothasis.
Now for game purposes there should be little to no difference between a katana or a bastard sword. the only difference is that 90% of katanas should be masterwork when found outside of their native land. My personal preference is that there should actually be a second level of masterwork which stacks on top of the first - this way you have 3 types of Bastard Sword. The typical bastard sword, a masterwork bastard sword and a truely masterwork bastard sword (Katana). Only then do you give the historic and highly skilled crafting techniques of the samurai sword makers art its true recognition.
For me though I like to think that all katanas are in fact magical - the skill convertied to Ki and infused into the weapon when crafted.
Just as a warning, I have seen far too many weapon debate threads burst into flames. This thread is on thin ice.
I should note the crowd here that we will be striving for a balanced weapon, even if that means it is not 100% historically accurate. I know that a true, well forged katana is an amazing weapon, but in a world with dragons and magic, we have to keep things balanced and in perspective.
Not to say that historical context does not have value here, but we have some broader concerns.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Katanas are so powerful they summon lead designers before the flames start. That is why there are no katanas in my games. Next think you know they will be summoning Demi-liches covered in fire. They have been weighed in the balance and deemed broken.
<looks around>
How did I get in this thread? Oh great, someone is using katanas around here. :(
.
..
...
....
.....
Wise man (probably with a beard) once say:
A blade is only as sharp as the wit of its wielder.
|
The Japanese kept them seperate due to cultural differences but poor warriors collected Katanas that broke in battle, notably at the tip where the poorer made ones tended to brake about 3 inches down making a shorter and striaghter blade, though still much longer than the wakizashi.Alright see I was told they would purposefully file down the tip -- the shorter the tip the more of a hot shot you thought you were.
Of course chuck norris doesn't need a katana -- he just looks at people and they fall apart like a katana hit them -- only it didn't cause chuck norris is too awesome for such cheap asian weaponry!
(The Chuck Norris part is something I have actually heard -- and we all understand about katanas so I don't have to explain that part)
Fixed that for you Abraham.
We have katanas and Drizzt so far . . . all we need to reach critical mass is Chuck Norris.
How about "katanas are the beard hairs of chuck norris"
yes it was "illegal" for any non-samurai to use a katana, something punishable by death, but so was being a ninja. so what was the draw back of a ninja using a katana again?
The drawback is that if the ninja has a reason to use a weapon in actual combat then the ninja has a much better reason to run very fast. As in being spotted by a guard.
Then again, the old Japanese and the new Japanese aren't the same since these Japanese aren't wizards and can't do crazy ninja magic things.
Modern Japanese are good at math and computer games. Aren´t these the defining traits of modern day wizards?
Katana
Cost: 1200 gp
Damage (S): 4d8
Damage (M): 5d12
Critical: 12-20 / ×8
Range: -
Weight: 5 lbs.
Type: S and P
Special: Ninja/SamuraiAll katanas are considered masterwork weapons. Any "katana" that is made and does not meet masterwork requirements is instead treated as one of those dull pointless clubs that barbarians from the West have the temerity to call swords. Katanas can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat. A katana can cut through any substance, no matter how hard or thick it is. This includes magical effects. A critical hit from a katana has a 97% chance of outright killing the victim, regardless of hit points. If this occurs, the victim is cut so badly that he can never be resurrected by any means...even direct divine intervention. Katana's automatically nullify any divine or magical defenses. This includes those of all deities. Katanas ignore armor, and any bonuses towards the target's AC. Anyone holding a katana automatically gains 10 levels in the class of their choosing. If the class of their choosing is Ninja or Samurai, they instead gain 25 levels, and automatically become greater gods.
You forgot that they also apply 7 times your Dex score to damage and can slice rifts through the space-time continuum if you spend 2 rounds using a whetstone on it beforehand. This, of course, has the game mechanic of simulating a gate or plane shift spell.
The Katana is also folded many times and hammered into place each time so the grain of the steel is going various directions each time making it stronger than pored and molded weapons or normal forged weapons of the west. It is also much thinner than a bastard sword. A curved elven blade works well, with wweapon finesse.
Mr. Falchion
My faith in Paizo has been destroyed after reading the stats for the katana as presented. Why is the weapon no longer automatically masterwork! This is dumb; katanas were the most difficult weapon for any swordsmith to make and often took years (and thousands of hours) of expert craftsmanship to complete!
Because this isn't midieval Japan. The main reason that katanas took so long to make back them was the extremely poor quality of Japanese steel, the method of manufacture was designed to counteract the swords' tendency to shatter at the first solid blow. Since samurai exist in the same world that produces long swords that don't break the problem that necessitated the design factor isn't an issue.
This also allows for the fact that rhonin or disgraced samurai may have to resort to cheap knockoffs.
If the Japanese had had access to Damascus steel on the other hand... things would have been different.
first of all i wouldnt say longswords didnt break.
damascus steel was more commonly found in rapiers and scimitars. and is still rare even today.
and why would a ronnin need a poorly made sword? would he not have the one that had been passed down to him from generations before?
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Re: 'short' Katanas
Re: Masterwork
Re: Exotic
Re: Stats
Oh, and neither being automatically masterwork.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm going to be crazy and respond to the original post.
While samurai historically used katana and wakizashi as a matter of station, I disagree with the proposal that only samurai should be proficient, for the following reasons:
- The restriction is a cultural one which may not exist in a given fantasy campaign world, and that kind of restriction should be up to the GM, not the mechanics.
- I could build a "samurai" with the Cavalier or Monk or Fighter or Ranger class--i.e., a character who is a warrior in the service of a daimyo and has general ability and backstory of a practitioner of bushido. There is a difference between a class and a concept with a name similar to that class--while a certain class may best reflect a concept, it is not the only or even accurate way to build said concept. For example, not all clerics may be actual members of a church's clergy, and some "clerics" (clergy members) may in fact be bards or druids or adepts or even experts or commoners or whatever; a "barbarian" may not be a roving savage warrior, but perhaps a very civilized warrior trained in a particular method of fighting, and a savage warrior could be reflected instead by a certain fighter or ranger build etc. ERGO: other classes that could be used to reflect a samurai concept should also be proficient.
- Ninja should be proficient because I imagine mechanically speaking, in the abstraction of Pathfinder, wakizashi stats could also be used to represent a ninjato or similar blades often associated with ninjas in popular narratives.
Interestingly:
Feudal japan, Fuedal Europe and India all created 'caste' systems separately from each other.
Specifically here we are discussing the "warrior" caste/class.
For Europe it was the "Knight"
For India it was the "Sikh"
For Japan it was the "Samurai"
Europe and Japan had a feature to their system, however than India did not, that being that, the higher levels of caste/class enjoyed the "privilages" of the warrior class.
example: Shogun and Daimyo. both not samurai. But were also allowed to carry/display/use the katanna and/or wakizashi, as weapons of honor, but were most often not nearly as skilled in their use.
This was mirrored in europe as the armored mounted knight was the pinnacle of military training, however earls, duke, princes and kings who MAY also have been knights (but not necessarily) were also allowed to wear the armor and act as If they were knights.
Europe has many of these "toy soldiers", Japan did as well. So the katana was not only restricted to samurai but their cultural superiors as well (even though they may not have been their martial equal)
The Sikh However, was/is a sort of secret society, and their weapons and skills were not spread among the higher castes.
True that a samurai could aspire to become shogun or Daimyo, and it did happen, just like a knight could become and earl, count, duke or prince. But niether noble title in either culture required you to be a samurai or knight first, as it was often an inherited title (but sometimes appointed)
- Ninja should be proficient because I imagine mechanically speaking, in the abstraction of Pathfinder, wakizashi stats could also be used to represent a ninjato or similar blades often associated with ninjas in popular narratives.
This is indeed the first thing I thought seeing the Ninja proficency weapon list.
