Katana and Wakisashi should be Samurai weapons only


Ninja Discussion: Round 1

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Scarab Sages

As the subject reads :P

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DragonBelow wrote:
As the subject reads :P

This is an appetizer before the katana stats discussion, right ? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

They shouldn't even be separate weapons. Bastard sword and short sword simulate them just fine.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
They shouldn't even be separate weapons. Bastard sword and short sword simulate them just fine.

That's one of your legendary casual drive-by ignition posts, innit? :)

And +1.

Dark Archive

Why?

More specifically, why shouldn't they just be either conventional exotic or martial weapons, or simply alternate names for bastard sword & short sword?

EDIT: Wow I type slow; still at least it's an appropriate thread to get ninjad multiple times in.


I agree, especially for the katana. Everyone knows a katana will critically fumble causing horrible self-inflicted injuries when used by a non-samurai. Since a katana is (3d8/11-20, x4), that's going to leave a mark.


I was under the impression that they are as bastard sword and short sword thereby making it simply a issue of nomenclature not actual rules differences.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Gorbacz wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
They shouldn't even be separate weapons. Bastard sword and short sword simulate them just fine.

That's one of your legendary casual drive-by ignition posts, innit? :)

And +1.

Oddly enough, no. I earnestly believe what I said. Heck, Kirth and I have already abolished special monk weapons in our games.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm actually hoping for a honest death of the katana flamewar, but I'm afraid SOMEBODY will run in here and demand 2d8/x4/17-20 with sixty wikipedia links to back it up.

But maybe that won't happen, it would be a great achievement for our species.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
They shouldn't even be separate weapons. Bastard sword and short sword simulate them just fine.

+1, Agreed.

Liberty's Edge

My faith in Paizo has been destroyed after reading the stats for the katana as presented. Why is the weapon no longer automatically masterwork! This is dumb; katanas were the most difficult weapon for any swordsmith to make and often took years (and thousands of hours) of expert craftsmanship to complete!

I'm taking my business elsewhere.

Spoiler:
I kid, I kid! I'm actually glad that they aren't auto-masterwork anymore. :D

Also: explosive runes

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The taboo on these weapons was largely cultural. There doesn't need to be any rule in place.


A katana thread? Kan any good come from it?


Gorbacz wrote:
I'm actually hoping for a honest death of the katana flamewar, but I'm afraid SOMEBODY will run in here and demand 2d8/x4/17-20 with sixty wikipedia links to back it up.

Ohh ohh in that case I can post all my wiki/ articles of the Gurkha campaign with British soldiers being aggressively field amputated/ beheaded by a single kukri strike.

Here's hoping anyway Gorbacz.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
A katana thread? Kan any good come from it?

Yes, if we all share a slice of the same cake.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Your words cut me deeply.


You would defile a katana with CAKE?!? Have you no honor/taste???


Pie Golem wrote:
You would defile a katana with CAKE?!? Have you no honor/taste???

"My honor tastes like cake!"

--Words of the famous Protean Cavalier Miiruzabuhz


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
A katana thread? Kan any good come from it?

Define good. :)


Justin Franklin wrote:
Define good. :)

Cake is good.


Because someone needs to say it here goes:

That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Masterwork Bastard Sword” baloney that’s going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that’s about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I’m pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

:D


The katana is a longsword, not a bastard sword. It was used two handed because that style was popular. I own a standard sized katana, it's about 3 feet long. So is my longsword. [stupid]All katanas ARE magical, though.[/stupid]

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Curse you, vuron.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Katana we all just get along?

I'm not for a Hollywood katana. But I'd think longsword stats would be closer than a bastard sword. A katana is barely bigger than a PF short sword.

And I can see a reason for including at least art of the katana. It doesn't resemble a longsword very much.

Dark Archive

vuron wrote:

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon) 1d12 Damage 19-20 x4 Crit +2 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon) 2d10 Damage 17-20 x4 Crit +5 to hit and damage Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don’t you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

:D

Agreed. Katanas are the most beautiful, well crafted weapons ever to be created for melee combat. They are the top of the mountain when it comes to swords. However, take it into this context, remembering that I as well believe that Katanas are the best: Overpowered. One word sums up all the arguements which are going to follow. I would love to see the weapon built in this style, however, enough people are going to have qualms with it that Pazio, and Jason B. (All hail!), will most likely shoot it down. For balance sake alone.


I heard a katana once shot a man just to watch him die. Or because he was snoring.


Katana and Wakizashi are very sharp and very maneuverable slicing weapons, and very light comparativly. Much like a rapier is a fast and light blade. Much like a Scimitar is actually a slim, fast, light, and maneuverable blade made for slashing. They all should be considered light weaponry. They do not function like Bastard Sword and Short Sword at all. Weather in real world setting or fantasy... ie Drizzt.

The early Scimitars of Drizzt that were drawn in the pics are more falchions or tulwars and some are way too curvy to be realistic. In one of R.A. Salvatore Novels in the back there is a link to a sight that makes replicas of Drizzts scimitars. If you look them up you get the idea of what they actually look like and an idea of how heavy they would be compared to the iron bar that is a western sword.

The Japanese kept them seperate due to cultural differences but poor warriors collected Katanas that broke in battle, notably at the tip where the poorer made ones tended to brake about 3 inches down making a shorter and striaghter blade, though still much longer than the wakizashi.


He was snoring ;)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
KnightErrantJR wrote:
I heard a katana once shot a man just to watch him die. Or because he was snoring.

Great, so now katana have levels in the gunslinger class too?


We have katanas and Drizzt so far . . . all we need to reach critical mass is Chuck Norris.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Curse you, vuron.

I should also note that this isn't the first time that EXACT POST has floated around somewhere. I don't know whether Vuron is the original source or not, but SOMEBODY posted it before now, verbatim.

I myself see Katana (of legitimate length) as roughly a longsword as well.

(Also, I propose that we just have a chart somewhere discussing how exotic real world weapons align with current d20 weapons.)


Shisumo wrote:
KnightErrantJR wrote:
I heard a katana once shot a man just to watch him die. Or because he was snoring.
Great, so now katana have levels in the gunslinger class too?

Katanas get their own class levels on top of being the samurai's weapon.


Ask Mr. Falchion how much real world appearance has to do with d20 stats . . . ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
(Also, I propose that we just have a chart somewhere discussing how exotic real world weapons align with current d20 weapons.)

Done.

:)


With my tulwar, I will cleave your katana asunder!


I can't put into words how happy I am that the katana is not the subject of the playtest. What hell that would be.

Tam


Auda abu Tayi wrote:
With my tulwar, I will cleave your katana asunder!

Not going to happen. When the katana leveled up it took martial arts feats and used weapon breaker on the tulwar.


Ohh this thread makes me wish for a nice fat sticky button for this forum.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Please please tell me I'm not the only one to think the aldori dueling sword is thw best stats for a katana this game has!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

The funniest thing about this thread are the stone-faced serious posts.


Sigurd Torgarsson wrote:
The Japanese kept them seperate due to cultural differences but poor warriors collected Katanas that broke in battle, notably at the tip where the poorer made ones tended to brake about 3 inches down making a shorter and striaghter blade, though still much longer than the wakizashi.

Alright see I was told they would purposefully file down the tip -- the shorter the tip the more of a hot shot you thought you were.

Of course chuck norris doesn't need a katana -- he just looks at people and they fall apart like a katana hit them -- only it didn't cause chuck norris is too awesome for such cheap asian weaponry!

(first part is something I have actually heard -- and we all understand about Chuck Norris so I don't have to explain that part)


drowranger80 wrote:
Please please tell me I'm not the only one to think the aldori dueling sword is thw best stats for a katana this game has!

Huh, never looked that closely at that weapon before. Yeah, it is a pretty good match. The whole finesse thing for a Katana is more fantasy than reality, but this is a fantasy game, so it fits.

Scarab Sages

vuron wrote:
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction.

I may live to regret this particular injection of logic, but no, I have never wondered this. The reason I have never wondered this is because the the Middle Ages lasted only until the 15th century and the beginning of the Early Modern Period. Only after about the first decade of the 15th century did European explorers actually reach Japan by sea. Marco Polo may have written of Japan earlier, but this was almost certainly repeated secondhand information.

The relative badassness of Japanese weaponry had nothing to do with it.

Tam


Chuck Norris doesn't need a katana, but he can duel wield Drizzt and a katana at the same time and his damage is 1d4+1 campaign settings per hit.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Charlie Bell wrote:
The funniest thing about this thread are the stone-faced serious posts.

I am not stone-faced!


Having largely stayed away from posting in any of the katana threads, I feel the need to say just one thing with regards to their stats:

Are we looking for historical accuracy in comparison to their european counterparts or are we striving for game balance? Let's keep in mind the two never really crossed, historically speaking, on any large scale. Unlike, say, how the English decimated the French at the Battle of Crecy when they pitted their longbows against crossbows. Yes, by all accounts, the katana was and is a superior weapon, but If you favor historical accuracy over balance, then everyone will be wanting one.


Billzabub wrote:

Having largely stayed away from posting in any of the katana threads, I feel the need to say just one thing with regards to their stats:

Are we looking for historical accuracy in comparison to the their european counterparts or are we striving for game balance since the two did not really cross, historically speaking, on any large scale? (Unlike, say, how the English decimated the French at the Battle of Crecy when they pitted their longbows against crossbows.)

Holy crap! Katanas, Drizzt, Chuck Norris, Longbows, and Decimate all in one thread!

Everybody off the message boards, I'm not sure how long before they blow.


One of my favorite books from 3.0, that I still allow in my games is the Arms and Equipment Guide, which had a nice big list of all the different cultural/exotic/etc weapons and their d20 equivalent... also katanas of longsword and bastard sword comparability both existed, however katanas the length of a short sword is either a wakishi(sp) or a ninja-to


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Billzabub wrote:

Having largely stayed away from posting in any of the katana threads, I feel the need to say just one thing with regards to their stats:

Are we looking for historical accuracy in comparison to the their european counterparts or are we striving for game balance since the two did not really cross, historically speaking, on any large scale? (Unlike, say, how the English decimated the French at the Battle of Crecy when they pitted their longbows against crossbows.)

The English as a race should get a penalty to Linguistics, but automatic specialty with the longbow, and a racial hatred bonus against the French.


Tambryn wrote:
vuron wrote:
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction.

I may live to regret this particular injection of logic, but no, I have never wondered this. The reason I have never wondered this is because the the Middle Ages lasted only until the 15th century and the beginning of the Early Modern Period. Only after about the first decade of the 15th century did European explorers actually reach Japan by sea. Marco Polo may have written of Japan earlier, but this was almost certainly repeated secondhand information.

The relative badassness of Japanese weaponry had nothing to do with it.

Tam

Pretty sure you missed the sarcasm tags on that post.

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