Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm really hoping the way to "balance" ninjas against other rogues isn't to make Ultimate Combat archetypes obviously better than other rogues. That's exactly the death spiral of rapid power creep inflation I worry about.
This is not the goal. If the ninja is indeed too powerful, we hope and expect that the playtest will show this, and we will make necessary changes.
I can see them giving the Rogue the ability to do the same vice versa, if it comes down to them keeping Ninja as an alternate rogue class. The Ninja is optional in Ultimate Combat, so I am sure a sidebar will note a DM should add a new Rogue talent to allow them to take Ninja Tricks
Actually, Ultimate Combat has new stuff for Rogues, especially talents. So that means one of them will allow a Rogue to take Ninja tricks.
As "Ninja" is simply an archetype they should just be rogue talents. The barbarians rage powers and rangers combat styles are not limited so why is this?
As "Ninja" is simply an archetype they should just be rogue talents. The barbarians rage powers and rangers combat styles are not limited so why is this?
I can see them giving the Rogue the ability to do the same vice versa, if it comes down to them keeping Ninja as an alternate rogue class. The Ninja is optional in Ultimate Combat, so I am sure a sidebar will note a DM should add a new Rogue talent to allow them to take Ninja Tricks
Actually, Ultimate Combat has new stuff for Rogues, especially talents. So that means one of them will allow a Rogue to take Ninja tricks.
The Ninja as presented in this playtest is not an archetype, it's an alternate class. Meaning it's a different version of the Rogue class and cannot multiclass with it because they're essentially the same class...strangely. It makes no sense to me, either, but they keep using the Paladin and Antipaladin as an example, which is a horrible example because those two can never multiclass ever due to their nature.
This is not the goal. If the ninja is indeed too powerful, we hope and expect that the playtest will show this, and we will make necessary changes.
Honestly, I'll admit I'm going on gut reaction here as well. I'm hoping to see some actual data from play at some point in time, but unfortunately, I'm not thinking either campaign I'm in is in a position to give the ninja a whirl.
Unless I can talk my friend and my Shackled City DM to turn our creepy Poison Dusk lizard folk into a ninja . . . ;)
My initial look over the Ninja:
*Cool factor, definitely has it.
*Has a bunch of nifty abilities.
*Seems to be far more potent than the rogue, and this concerns me.
I'll have to hand the class over to my rogue-guru girlfriend for her opinion, but...to me it looks like the Ninja gets almost all of the benefits of a rogue, and then gets a bunch on top of it. Too much, IMO.
*drops two cents into the tin*
The Ninja as presented in this playtest is not an archetype, it's an alternate class. Meaning it's a different version of the Rogue class and cannot multiclass with it because they're essentially the same class...strangely. It makes no sense to me, either, but they keep using the Paladin and Antipaladin as an example, which is a horrible example because those two can never multiclass ever due to their nature.
No they just call it something else. It is an archetype. It changes 5 things..5. That is less then some of the archetypes in the APG.
The one subclass we have changes every single ability and the spell list.
It is an archetype they simply choose to call something else to make folks like you happy.
The Ninja as presented in this playtest is not an archetype, it's an alternate class. Meaning it's a different version of the Rogue class and cannot multiclass with it because they're essentially the same class...strangely. It makes no sense to me, either, but they keep using the Paladin and Antipaladin as an example, which is a horrible example because those two can never multiclass ever due to their nature.
No they just call it something else. It is an archetype. It changes 5 things..5. That is less then some of the archetypes in the APG.
The one subclass we have changes every single ability and the spell list.
It is an archetype they simply choose to call something else to make folks like you happy.
Well then if they follow my suggestion from earlier, it would make for a great alternate class, or better, the base class it should've been. Honestly, I don't even count the Antipaladin as an alternate class. By its nature, it couldn't multiclass as a Paladin at all anyway.
The Ninja as presented in this playtest is not an archetype, it's an alternate class. Meaning it's a different version of the Rogue class and cannot multiclass with it because they're essentially the same class...strangely. It makes no sense to me, either, but they keep using the Paladin and Antipaladin as an example, which is a horrible example because those two can never multiclass ever due to their nature.
No they just call it something else. It is an archetype. It changes 5 things..5. That is less then some of the archetypes in the APG.
The one subclass we have changes every single ability and the spell list.
It is an archetype they simply choose to call something else to make folks like you happy.
Actually, the Anti-Paladin is exactly the same as the Paladin, just evil. It gains all the same abilities as the Paladin, at the exact same level, just evil and unpleasant.
The only two things I really have a problem with is Light Steps is automatic and doesn't seem to be an ability I wouldn't use, if the situation warranted it.
The other problem I have is Hidden Master is really strong for costing only 2 Ki points. I don't have a problem with it mechanically, but for just 2 Ki Points and a standard action, it is too strong.
Has any one here played a ninja and compared it to the rogue. I bet jason and paizo guys have so give it a chance. And play it some
Girlfriend's view on the Ninja:
"It seems like they went out and started cherry-picking abilities from Rogue, Monk, and Assassin. Additionally, they seem to have taken out all of the non-combat abilities and replaced them with combat abilities, making them a much more dangerous class without really reducing non-combat abilities. About the only thing that the rogue has in its favor is Trapfinding. That's it."
Yeah...I cannot see myself being able to even introduce this into my game in good conscience in any way. Sorry, but...I'm unwilling to even playtest this class as written. *shrugs*
i dont have much to say about the class, but as for the iconic, that ninja sure is carrying a lot of s&*%. idk how you can be sneaky with all that crap. gimme some ninja stars, a few daggers, and a ninjato and im good to go.
Has any one here played a ninja and compared it to the rogue. I bet jason and paizo guys have so give it a chance. And play it some
Honestly, I'm just giving my first impressions. I'm more than willing to alter my opinion based on how the thing actually works in play, and from seeing how it works for others. I'm just putting out there that my gut reaction is that its a bit too powerful. I could be wrong.
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Director of Games
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Hey there folks,
Lets not bog down on the ninja's classification right now. For this playtest, the key thing you need to know is that you cannot have both ninja and rogue levels.
As for the ninja's power level, I think we may have pegged things a bit high, depending on how you value evasion. We we certainly be looking into the actual playtest feedback to help guide our decision in this regard.
And yes, we do plan to give the rogue a means by which he can access ninja tricks, although with no ki pool, some are not very useful to him. The monk on the other hand...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishin
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Director of Games
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Honestly, I'm just giving my first impressions. I'm more than willing to alter my opinion based on how the thing actually works in play, and from seeing how it works for others. I'm just putting out there that my gut reaction is that its a bit too powerful. I could be wrong.
And I should note that first impressions are just fine, so long as everyone involved knows that is exactly what they are, impressions. Thats not to say they are not valuable, but I think we have been through enough playtests around here to realize that a first look is usually not entirely reliable. I appreciate folks who understand that.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly, I'm just giving my first impressions. I'm more than willing to alter my opinion based on how the thing actually works in play, and from seeing how it works for others. I'm just putting out there that my gut reaction is that its a bit too powerful. I could be wrong.And I should note that first impressions are just fine, so long as everyone involved knows that is exactly what they are, impressions. Thats not to say they are not valuable, but I think we have been through enough playtests around here to realize that a first look is usually not entirely reliable. I appreciate folks who understand that.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I usually get exasperated when people are certain of how a class works without actually using the class in play, but I do think its a testament to how interesting the alternate classes are that its hard not to tear into them as soon as they are present.
So, its kind of a compliment . . . ;)
Alright I sat down and played the number some and I'm not so convinced now that it is quite as powerful as it feels at first.
Getting the charisma up to really use those abilities without bombing everything else you need is a real chore.
You want Dex for AC and possibly two weapon fighting. Can't dump Int since you want those skill points. Need that Con so you don't fall over on the first hit (or first time you are poisoned/what not). Need wisdom since you want to spot things and have a decent save. Strength can go to a point.
It's almost impossible to balance everything you want and need to get everything juuuuuuusst right.
I'm curious why this was brought into the rogue archtype and not the monk if it has a ki pool of some sort. Giving them a sneak attack value while taking away flurry of blows (along with other things of course) seems more fitting at least to me.
I suspect it is because giving them a ki pool and having many of their tricks work off of that, but with the tricks still working like rogue talents, replaced less abilities than it would to add ninja tricks to a monk, and adding sneak attack isn't a matter of replacing one thing on the monk, but adding a scaling class feature.
I suspect it is because giving them a ki pool and having many of their tricks work off of that, but with the tricks still working like rogue talents, replaced less abilities than it would to add ninja tricks to a monk, and adding sneak attack isn't a matter of replacing one thing on the monk, but adding a scaling class feature.
It also allows a higher degree of specialization and alteration between builds.
It's easier to have the rogue talents be able to swap out to represent a different "clan" of ninja than to come up with a whole new back of mumbo-jumbo for a monk.
The first thing I thought reading the ninja and the samurai was that the ninja's main "thrust" was to replace rogue talents with ninja tricks, and the samurai's flavor comes from replacing the standard cavalier orders, and to me that made them both look like alternate classes rather than their own things, which is what Paizo seemed to be going for.
That's why I got the gut feeling that the gunslinger is less fighter than the ninja is rogue or the samurai is cavalier. It doesn't map X for Y as much with the fighter.
My first impression has been echoed in this thread many times already. It seems far superior to the rogue class. I also agree that the ninja tricks should just be new rogue talents. Giving the archetype/alternate class access to a bunch of new class features while maintaining the ability to get the old ability is absolutely power creep. Lucky for me I will get to playtest this as an NPC Wednesday in my shackled city campaign and we will see how he fairs against the party. Ninja/Assassin Scum FTW.
I'm pretty sure that I will be the only one to say this, or anything remotely like this... but here it goes:
I am immensely disappointed that the ninja is an alternate rogue. It's a personal feeling of mine that a ninja should be its own class with mostly unique features (but if it had to be anything else, then more of a monk variant, less of a rogue).
This playtest was a complete surprise... (I blame minecraft for my lack of attention. <<;) I had no idea Paizo would be releasing a ninja class in Ultimate Combat, or that playtesting for it would begin so soon. My friends and I have spent the last few weeks working over a 20 level ninja class that does its own thing. My knee-jerk reaction was "Crap! Time wasted!" But having read over it, the three of us sitting here when I found the PDF were simultaneously shocked at its potency, and underwhelmed with its flavor.
The Gunslinger and Samurai are awesome, but I am SO let down by the Ninja. And whoever rattled off the list of things the Ninja got above and beyond the normal rogue stuff forgot to add the free bastard sword proficiency. Rogues don't get that for free.
I don't want to insult anyone, but this is the only thing that has come out of Paizo that I completely disagreed with. The Magus I had some issues with at first, but they were quickly resolved, and changed with little harm to the weeaboos. There's nothing to be done for the ninja in my opinion except to rewrite it as an alternate monk. I realize that this is not a feeling that will be shared by many people, if any at all, and the company has to do what makes its customers happy as a majority. I'm content to say what I have to say and begone, and play my own version of the ninja if that's what I have to do to be satisfied.
But I do have one question that I have to have answered: WHY does a ninja have to have sneak attack to function? I tried to make a ninja without it and my players complained ceaselessly.
the ninja seems more powerful at first glance but here are some major downsides
high levels of multiple attribute depedancy and a lack of a true dump stat. they even lost the ability to dump charisma. losing the ability to relaibly dump charisma is a problem, especially when charisma pulls more weight for your character than the class they were based upon. making ki points harder to aquire, and most of those seemingly better talents consume ki points from the pool. and you are always going to want to save at least 1 point in that pool. and all of your newly aqcuired class abilities drain from this limited pool. try bumping charisma while maintaining all those other high stats you need. it's like having fewer points to work with than everyone else for the purpose of point buy.
your best friend is the advanced creature template assuming your DM allows it.
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Hurm.
-- Alt-Rogue is easier to fit in than Alt-Monk for reasons stated upthread. I can live with this.
-- Ki pool ought to be based on Wis rather than Cha to create some commonality with the monk. The ninja as it is expressed and presently ought not to have Charisma over Wisdom anyway.
-- Add another vote to the chorus asking that "ninja tricks" just become a list of additional rogue talents. Of the twenty-five normal and eleven master tricks listed, half are already rogue talents and the other half look like it until they demand payment in ki points. Rogues ought not to be so cut off, and most of the rogue 'magic' powers come with a designated uses-per-day.
-- Would the proposed elimination of 'ninja tricks' invalidate the 'ki' mechanic altogether? Not necessarily. But it might reduce the alt-class down to an archetype.
-- Changing the ki pool to Wisdom-based instead of Charisma-based also reinforces the utility of the base rogue as a generalist with non-combat abilities and the utility of the ninja-alternate as a specialist with extra combat abilities. If we really are going for the black-mask wearing ninja archetype, than Charisma fees doubly out of place because they aren't supposed to ever talk. If my party has a ninja and that ninja is the party face, I weep.
More thoughts after some playtesting.
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First impressions:
It should be an archetype, if that. However, I can sympathise with the idea of a PC-usable base assassin class.
- Weapon and Armour Proficiency: What would it lose if written as: "Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the bastard sword, light flail, short sword and shortbow"? But that wouldn't be all Oriental. I suppose I should have raised that argument when the Monk first came out. Yes, I'm aware a sai is not a dagger.
- Ki Pool: If we have to have this, the basic usages are done well.
- Acrobatic Master: A ninja can potentially do this 6/day at 2nd level. Some of the things he can do with an Acrobatics check of 40+ will give second level spells a run for their money. Maybe it could scale by level.
- Darkvision: Duration is long enough to make other players feel stupid taking some lame old class like wizard that has to anticipate and cast this as a 2nd level spell, but short enough that the ninja will constantly have to track its expiry and re-enact it.
- Feather fall: This seems like a lot of uses compared to a wizard of equal level as well.
- Ki charge: 2nd level spell effect. Do I sound like a broken record yet? I'll just add to the same list, shadow clone.
- Rogue talent: So he gets every option a rogue has, plus a lot more?
- Vanishing trick: This looks OK. The other ha-ha-I-can-do-tricks-four-levels-above-your-wizard abilities need limits along the same lines.
- Wall climber: Needs a cost.
- Light steps: Second-to-last sentence breaks adventures. Do these immunities apply to spell effects?
- Advanced Talents: I see the class does have at least one interesting limitation.
- Assassinate: Now he gets a prestige class's key ability, without the limitations that the assassin has to deal with. "if the target recognizes the ninja as an enemy": please don't do that to GMs.
- Ghost step: Poor wizards. This one is of appropriate spell level, though available more often than most 10th level wizards could manage.
- See the Unseen: Compared to other master tricks, this should be a standard trick.
- Hidden Master: So the invisibility arms race ratchets up. Including true seeing is bad enough, but earlier language leaves the door open to argue that discern location and other extremely powerful effects might not be able to see the hidden master either.
I like A LOT the class. The flavour is very strong, is what I imagine when I think "ninja". I find it awesome.
I like the little bits of monk (ki pool) and alchemist (bombs). Smoke, movements, pressure points, miror images - it's a freaking ninja. Need to playtest, but for what I have seen 'til now, well done. Well. Done.
As for not being a rogue - well, is slighty more different, but I think designers nailed it, placing the Alternate Class thing in the right distance. This allows all the flavourful features. And after all, is a sneaky, skillful, sneak attacking dude. It's still a rogue.
For being more powerful than rogue - I wish to see how lose evasion and the need of pump charisma impacts. These two things, expecially the latter, are far from being trivial. Do not understimate them.
Finally, even if comes up it's more poweful.. well, please, in this case pimp the rogue talents in the book (maye throwing in an HiPS one! or one to deal precision damage, at least x rounds/day, with flasks). Several people pointed out rogue sometimes falls back (even if this is not my experience). Paizo did a great job with barbarian in the APG, maybe now could be Rogue's turn (actually APG already has awesome things for rogues, but I humbly think there is room for improvements).
Cool Ninja, Awesome Rogue, everybody happy* :)
*except flanked or flat footed targets
Hey there folks,
Lets not bog down on the ninja's classification right now. For this playtest, the key thing you need to know is that you cannot have both ninja and rogue levels.
Which, as I've stated before, it makes no sense whatsoever, especially for story purposes. Someone replied to me saying one might be able to trade Rogue levels for Ninja levels, but why is the Rogue limited to that? How come a Fighter or Monk wanting to grab Ninja levels doesn't have to do this "tradeoff" in-game but the Rogue does? I can see many people houseruling for the two to be able to multiclass. I know I will :(
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Which, as I've stated before, it makes no sense whatsoever, especially for story purposes. Someone replied to me saying one might be able to trade Rogue levels for Ninja levels, but why is the Rogue limited to that? How come a Fighter or Monk wanting to grab Ninja levels doesn't have to do this "tradeoff" in-game but the Rogue does? I can see many people houseruling for the two to be able to multiclass. I know I will :(Hey there folks,
Lets not bog down on the ninja's classification right now. For this playtest, the key thing you need to know is that you cannot have both ninja and rogue levels.
Because Rogue 1/Ninja 1 = 2d6 sneak attack at level 1. Kthnxbai.
Because Rogue 1/Ninja 1 = 2d6 sneak attack at level 1. Kthnxbai.Which, as I've stated before, it makes no sense whatsoever, especially for story purposes. Someone replied to me saying one might be able to trade Rogue levels for Ninja levels, but why is the Rogue limited to that? How come a Fighter or Monk wanting to grab Ninja levels doesn't have to do this "tradeoff" in-game but the Rogue does? I can see many people houseruling for the two to be able to multiclass. I know I will :(Hey there folks,
Lets not bog down on the ninja's classification right now. For this playtest, the key thing you need to know is that you cannot have both ninja and rogue levels.
Level 2. OH no, they get 1d6 sneak attack 1 level sooner! A minor inconvenience fixed by an equally minor line in the rules.
That being said, the playtest Ninja is pretty frakkin' awesome. It's actually better (if not as versatile) than the core Rogue (APG changes that somewhat, but then again UC will introduce new Rogue and Ninja stuff, so the verdict is up in the air).
That's where I am right now.
Lots of grinning when I read it. But overall it looks a bit TOO good.
Duh, that's what I get for typing without drinking my coffee first.
Still, having another 3.5 damage early doesn't help when one of the biggest problems of early game is the squishness of players.
If it's a base class, then add this to the Sneak Attack section at the end :
If the Ninja gains Sneak Attack from another class, then the levels of the two classes stack to determine the D6 damage of the sneak attack ability.
Problem solved. If you do Ninja 1/Rogue 1, then you get 1d6 Sneak attack. Take a second level of Rogue, you gain 2d6 sneak attack (at 3rd level, same as a Rogue 3 or Ninja 3).
If it's a base class, then add this to the Sneak Attack section at the end :
If the Ninja gains Sneak Attack from another class, then the levels of the two classes stack to determine the D6 damage of the sneak attack ability.
Problem solved. If you do Ninja 1/Rogue 1, then you get 1d6 Sneak attack. Take a second level of Rogue, you gain 2d6 sneak attack (at 3rd level, same as a Rogue 3 or Ninja 3).
+1
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First impressions:
Acrobatic Master: A ninja can potentially do this 6/day at 2nd level. Some of the things he can do with an Acrobatics check of 40+ will give second level spells a run for their money. Maybe it could scale by level.
Darkvision: Duration is long enough to make other players feel stupid taking some lame old class like wizard that has to anticipate and cast this as a 2nd level spell, but short enough that the ninja will constantly have to track its expiry and re-enact it.
Feather fall: This seems like a lot of uses compared to a wizard of equal level as well.
Ki charge: 2nd level spell effect. Do I sound like a broken record yet? I'll just add to the same list, shadow clone.
Vanishing trick: This looks OK. The other ha-ha-I-can-do-tricks-four-levels-above-your-wizard abilities need limits along the same lines.
Ghost step: Poor wizards. This one is of appropriate spell level, though available more often than most 10th level wizards could manage.
See the Unseen: Compared to[/list]...
Because those poor wizards are already so weak and "low-tier"...
;)
I'm really hoping the way to "balance" ninjas against other rogues isn't to make Ultimate Combat archetypes obviously better than other rogues. That's exactly the death spiral of rapid power creep inflation I worry about.This is not the goal. If the ninja is indeed too powerful, we hope and expect that the playtest will show this, and we will make necessary changes.
My first impression is that maybe it's not the case so much that the ninja is too good but that the rogue is (and has been) a little bit weak.
I had the same feeling about the core barbarian and the APG really turned me around on it.
To those complaining about the rogue talent ninja trick: It can only be taken once. Same goes for Advanced Talent.
Your are correct sir. I will retract my complaint regarding the rogue talents as long as rogues can take a ninja trick (which I'm pretty sure Buhlman said they can) via a talent.
I still feel they are a little powerful compared to Mr. Rogue but I echo the sentiment that it might not be the ninja is extremely unbalanced, just that the core rogue is a little meh.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I have an elegant mathematical rules solution to the ninja's superiority to the rogue: the Inverse Ninja Law (link to tvtropes.org--you were warned).
Threat = 1/N, where N is number of ninjas present
Applied to PFRPG, I propose the following cinematic houserule: in any encounter where there is more than 1 ninja present, including PC ninjas, each ninja receives a number of negative levels equal to the number of ninjas present - 1. These negative levels cannot reduce a ninja's effective level below 1.
As "Ninja" is simply an archetype they should just be rogue talents. The barbarians rage powers and rangers combat styles are not limited so why is this?
The mere existence of a class named ninja, or samurai, or even gunslinger, annoys me. These should all be able to be built using existing base classes plus possibly some new rogue talents (ninja), or feats (samurai), or weapons and a few feats (gunslinger)
I don't see the need for more classes. In fact, I thought we were about done with new classes and were going to focus instead on using archetypes. Add to it that these are "alternate" classes, an entirely new concept... and... sorry but ugh. Not interested. Will not see use in any game I run. Just saying.
Stuff
I agree with starglim, it should remain as an archetype, maybe even a Monk one.-
Now, lets see the abilities.-
- [1]Weapon and Armour Proficiency: No issues.-
[2]Ki Pool: Ok, but i would exchange the +4 ingisht bonus with the jump as a running start, 1 ki point for a +4 bonus? kinda lame.-.
[3]Acrobatic Master: I think that it should scale by level maybe +10 / +20 at lvl 10+ or +5/+10+/20.-
[4]Darkvision: Meh, i can live with that.-
[5]Rogue talent: If this stays, it should work both ways as Jason said.-
[6]Vanishing trick: with the 1rnd/lvl limitation it feels ok.- i would make it a swift action only if the ninja has any kind of concealment.-
[7]Wall climber: I agree with StarGlim, it should keep the same restrictions of all the powers. 1/day free, next one 1 ki point.-
[8]Light steps: a strong ability, yet not game breaker.
[9]Advanced Talents: I see the class does have at least one interesting limitation.
[10]Assassinate: This should be removed. otherwise Assasin Prc is just useless. If we keep this, how a ninja/Assasin levels stack for death attack. One of them needs 3 rounds of observation, the other just one?
[11]Ghost step: It should be a standard action.
[12]Hidden Master: Ok, Imp. Invisibility at will. Ok, but i think that the limitation over True seeing should be lifted.
I´ll try this class tonight and post the results tomorrow.-
Ok so not knowing what the new talents for the Rogue are i will say this:
The ninja is just better than the rogue. On all accounts.
They both get sneak attack the same, ok even trade then.
They both get 8 +int skills, same deal.
Hit Dice, same.
Saves, same.
Tricks, so far much much much better than rogue talents. For instance I ninja can select Mirror Image (one of the best defensive spells in the game) which is a 2nd level spell when A rogue has to take a talent that gives a 0 level spell before he can take a 1st level spell... and the ninja can do this at level 2. And thats just one.
Poison use. Since there is an archetype that replaces trapfinding with poison use in the APG I will assume they expected a wash on that one.
No trace is probably the equivalent of Trap sense (also depending)
Uncanny dodge both get.
Other than Master Strike versus the 20th level stealth... i would argue the stealth but YMMV and its 20th level so not very good for the basis of the game.
That leaves one thing.
Evasion vs Ki Pool.
this is not even a fair fight. Evasion is situationally good based upon the spell, Ki Pool works all the time and grants the use of certain Tricks the ninja gets repeatedly. Nothing a few Expanded ki pools cant fix for mileage.
i can add +4 to stealth, get an extra attack, add 20 to my base speed, use various tricks extendedly, and float across lava (light step) and later in the air.
Versus Saving against reflex saves for no damage?
Maybe I am looking at it wrong but it doesnt look good to me. Especially with all the tricks being SIGNIFICANTLY better than Talents.
Lastly the Advanced trick Assassinate....
seriously? guess the assassin is just a s&+~tier... assassin? you can do this in 1 round, from any range of sneak attack (not just melee) and the save will undoubtedly be higher because you will have more levels in ninja than assassin's normally. The limitation is once per opponent per day, but lets face it assassin's arent likely to get a second attempt at a death attack with a 3 round requirement and the person being on alert... and in melee.
I will say this, given the choice I could fill any nitch a rogue could do with a ninja... and do it better almost everytime.
All my opinion but there it is.
This discussion is the first time I noticed this whole "alternate class" foolishness, and I have to say it makes zero sense to me.
Heck, the archetypes bend common sense enough - one of my first questions when reading about them was "so, can I multiclass in fighter/fighter and play multiple archetypes?" Or how about monk/monk/monk/monk so I can be Aang :)
Near as I can tell, there's little reason to prohibit it, as all your level-dependent abilities suffer just like any other multi-class combination - it seems like a rather arbitrary prohibition. You can be an elementalist wizard/inquisitor or a fighter/alchemist or even a paladin/rogue, but you can't be a phalanx/polearm fighter ... is it because that kind of cross-training makes no sense while training as a paladin/rogue does?
Now we have the even more arbitrary prohibition: alternate classes that are pretty much unrelated, yet which cannot multiclass ... and one of them is ninja/rogue?
Frankly, in any game I run, the whole "you can't multiclass in alternate classes" is going to go right out the window if this is how it's going to be implemented. What possible reason is there for someone to not be allowed to take both rogue and ninja levels?
It's not like paladin/anti-paladin where the classes themselves cause a prohibition - kind of like how it's impossible to multiclass druid and paladin - they didn't invent some strange new rule about how they're "alternate classes" ... they just let the existing rules sort it out.
Good stuffs: I really like a lot about this ninja. The ninja tricks are keen and well flavored, covering a lot of the tropes, allowing the building of various ninja "types". I love that you included ways to boost the ninja's speed. Having a ninja in the party next to a monk, WITHOUT extra speed, would have made me a sad panda. I love the ninja tricks like Slow Reactions, and Pressure Points, both of which describe a combat style that keeps opponents off their game.
Tropes that this class hits are many and varied and that is good.
Concerns: As has been pointed out, when you look at the rogue and ninja, side to side, there are parity issues. Not to say that the ninja is overpowered. In all likelihood, it isn't. It just seems like power creep.
What is it that rogues do better than ninjas? Where are they more proficient? I would think that ninjas concentrate on a few aspects of the rogue's bag of tricks to a more focused degree (Killing, stealth, deception, manipulation) but then loose some of the variation that the rogue is capable of. They don't probably have quite as wide a skillset (perhaps 6 skill points per level).
The combination of getting an extra attack through Ki and having a full on sneak attack progression might be another proverbial kick-in-the-nuts to rogue. Perhaps they should have a slightly slower sneak attack progression.
Power creep might be a problem, but quite frankly the rogue is too weak in the first place. The ninja is perhaps at the power level the rogue always should have been, so it's not that much of a problem from my perspective.
it's not really a problem for me either.
i beleive that there should be a rogue talent that gives the rogue access to the ki pool as well.
i also beleive that rogues and ninja should be able to multiclass with one another, just like fighter/gunslinger or samurai/cavalier.
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it's not really a problem for me either.
i beleive that there should be a rogue talent that gives the rogue access to the ki pool as well.
i also beleive that rogues and ninja should be able to multiclass with one another, just like fighter/gunslinger or samurai/cavalier.
At a certain point, you stop having a rogue be a rogue if you start having so many shared features.
I posted my suggestion above. My opinion is a rogue is a sneaky trickster who uses skills and guile to succeed. Primary main features are "Sneak attack" which is basically fighting dirty by aiming for weaknesses, rogue talents which are basically tricks of the trade utility abilities, and skill points, with are skills to improvise whatever is needed at the time stuff is happening. When I think rogue I think mediocre fighter who is willing to do whatever is needed to get the job done. Indiana Jones pulling the gun, kicking wolfman in the nards, etc...
A ninja is a hunter/assassin, who trains in martial technique while learning mystical powers. Sneaky, but also highly skilled in martial fighting (full BaB), skilled but not a skill monkey (either 4 or 6 skill points) and having some limited spell ability, but very limited (Ranger/Paladin progression perhaps).
If you are going to give Rogue's access to all the ninja features, why make a template?