But these are heroic, fantasy gunslingers we're talking about here. The rules of physics go out the window. If a heroic, legendary gunslinger manages ten shots with a pistol in the span of a few seconds, who cares? No one asks how they curve bullets in the movie "Wanted"...they just do! It's the same with this game and we need to make sure we stick to that line of thought.
The video game "Devil May Cry" anyone? That's what I picture when I think about a fantasy TTRPG gunslinger class.
+1 you be comfortable with spellcasters and turn around and say everyone else has to be only as good as a real world person. i have always hated that mentality
I found it an interesting read too. I have met one man that could get three shots off in six seconds with a black powder weapon -- however he is out of practice now and I doubt he can do it that fast any more. Not someone I intend to cross anyway about it!funny, im such a gun freak. I learn alot by joining SASS (single action shooting society) its kinda like live action role playing with real shootem up fire arms (can only use firearms whose design/patent is pre 1900)
Ive always thought i should have been an 1860's gun fighter and i was born too late.
Of course I think God made it up to me by allowing the invention of the jeep wrangler.
I once watched something similar in new hampshire, I took my boy scout troop on a 50 mile canoe trip (we chickened out around 35 miles) and one of our stops was the sight of an actual colonial era fort.
It was an operating trading post with the catch that it was like a theme park and everyone "pretended" to be a 1700s era person.There was this one guy who was a solider, and he carried a "fire lock".
He went through the motions of reloading, aiming, and firing his fire lock for us, calling out the commands "lock your fire lock, shoulder your fire lock, aim your fire lock" etc etc you get the point.
so it seemed he could get three aimed shots a minute.
we asked him about that, and he said there was a command something like "fire at will your firelock" (it wasnt that but it was something like that) and that meant you just loaded, aimed and fired as fast as you could.
SOooo being a dummy i said, "show me what you got"
He could get 12 shots off in a minute which he claimed were well aimed (of course he was using powder with no real shot so there was no way to 'test' that)
I also remember reading something about kit carson having been capable of something very similar on a regular basis during the battle of the alamo (or that might have been davey crocket but it think it was kit carson and his kentucky rifle)
But these are heroic, fantasy gunslingers we're talking about here. The rules of physics go out the window. If a heroic, legendary gunslinger manages ten shots with a pistol in the span of a few seconds, who cares? No one asks how they curve bullets in the movie "Wanted"...they just do! It's the same with this game and we need to make sure we stick to that line of thought.Why bother with arrows and bullets as ammunition (they could just materialize, the way they do in World of Warcraft now) or encumbrance, then? The rules of physics don't "go out the window," in the game unless something is magical, generally, and Gunslingers don't have Supernatural abilities; they have Extraordinary abilities.
I don't think anyone can get off 5 arrow shots or 5 light crossbow shots off in 6 seconds, either, but in this fantasy game, they can. I don't think anyone, no matter how experienced, could take down single-handedly armed with a weapon and wearing armor a mighty, reptilian beast ten times their size, much less a pack of them. But in this game, you can.
I think it's a matter of perspective of one's gaming style. Many like their games to be as real as possible. Just as many enjoy their games to be similar to over-the-top action flicks, Japanese anime, comic books, and/or video games. Then there are some who happen to blend the two. The best choice is to blend the two, but in some instances I think one set of rules should be governed by the "realists" while other rules should be governed by the "impossibles".
i just have to repeat, i cant stand the idea that you need to cast magic to do impressive over the top things.
i just have to repeat, i cant stand the idea that you need to cast magic to do impressive over the top things.
I agree, I believe the feats and extraordinary actions the nonspellcasters in the game perform are, and should be (by our reality's standards) quasi-magical in nature anyway.
My own world is a blend of the two, as well. Generally, though, the "over the top action," stuff is supernatural in nature. Sometimes you want the Everyman, rather than Superman, and a Gunslinger that can reload a non-automatic firearm in essentially nanoseconds, gunpowder and all is far more of a Superman than an Everyman.Everyman abilities are generally Extraordinary and Superman abilities are often Supernatural. Bows are an area that might stretch too far, but they also don't require a lot of time to reload if you're highly trained in one. A standard or move action makes sense to me personally for a highly trained gunslinger, but so fast as to be negligible? I don't think so--not without a magic pistol that auto-reloads or something.
I agree, but I also make a distinction in my games just who are considered Everyman and who are the Supermen. And I use levels to gauge that. Would I want someone to do as you described at level 1? Of course not. Level 5? Nope. Level 20? Hell yes. (and, if one uses epic rules, a 30th-level Gunslinger should be more than capable of performing that feat plus some)
i really wished they were going to reprint the revolvers so that you could have the two weapon fighting type gunslinger. i really like that concept.
one thing i would have liked to have seen would have been the curving of the bullet from the movie wanted, that would have been cool.
The ability to be a Touch attack at short range, will be a nice way for melee classes to bypass Armor, natural armor, and armor enchantment bonuses.
Could even see a rogue or fighter, packing a 8 pistols. Take the -4 penality and still be better able to hit some creatures like bears, cloakers, Glabrezu demons, etc.
i really wished they were going to reprint the revolvers so that you could have the two weapon fighting type gunslinger. i really like that concept.
Agreed. I have a player who would love to make a maenad Rogue/Gunslinger character that travels the high seas. The d20 SRD gun rules are just plain bland, even with allowing a roll of a max damage on a die allowing a reroll. The loading time was the killer, still. And one still had to bypass the entire enemy's AC. There was a Dragon Magazine that expanded on gun rules, but not by much. It mainly offered more types of guns to use. Considering there is a Gunslinger Mage prestige class mentioned in the book, I can twist it to be a Psionic Gunslinger PrC and he'd be ecstatic!
The ability to be a Touch attack at short range, will be a nice way for melee classes to bypass Armor, natural armor, and armor enchantment bonuses.
Could even see a rogue or fighter, packing a 8 pistols. Take the -4 penality and still be better able to hit some creatures like bears, cloakers, Glabrezu demons, etc.
The Touch attack ruling worries me. I prefer it to be able to ignore armor and shield only. As for natural armor, I prefer it to ignore up to a specified maximum, depending on the gun. For example, a pistol ignores up to +4 natural armor, while a musket would ignore up to +6 or +7? Something along those lines.
The Lightning Reload Deed feat's something you can get by level 3. I actually don't mind the ability to occasionally reload quickly--when you get the Deed, it's limited by grit expenditure. What bothers me about it personally is that you can get rid of the grit cost.
If Paizo wanted to have full-attacking guns, they should have gone with revolvers or something, like the repeating crossbow. That would have fit your Devil May Cry example much better anyway.
I suspect there will be guns that have higher capacities in the book, or gun upgrades for existing guns probably. They do need to get settled on the gun rules before they release that book that covers Golarion's sci-fi nation and the gun country nation, Alkenstar I think it's called.
You DO get your Dex to dam, and likely the weapon spec damage bonuses, so its not THAT bad.
Considering you have no + to damage from strength, the damage per shot even with GVS is going to be relatively small unless you decide to be carrying around large or huge firearms as an enlarged gunslinger.
To Lazzy to hunt thro 2 books..... Which Feat converts Dex to Damage for range attacks ??
The Touch attack ruling worries me. I prefer it to be able to ignore armor and shield only. As for natural armor, I prefer it to ignore up to a specified maximum, depending on the gun. For example, a pistol ignores up to +4 natural armor, while a musket would ignore up to +6 or +7? Something along those lines.
That would seem to complicate combat a bit, with figuring out how much armor bonus and how much you can penetrate.
I agree, but I also make a distinction in my games just who are considered Everyman and who are the Supermen. And I use levels to gauge that. Would I want someone to do as you described at level 1? Of course not. Level 5? Nope. Level 20? Hell yes. (and, if one uses epic rules, a 30th-level Gunslinger should be more than capable of performing that feat plus some)The Lightning Reload Deed feat's something you can get by level 3. I actually don't mind the ability to occasionally reload quickly--when you get the Deed, it's limited by grit expenditure. What bothers me about it personally is that you can get rid of the grit cost.
If Paizo wanted to have full-attacking guns, they should have gone with revolvers or something, like the repeating crossbow. That would have fit your Devil May Cry example much better anyway.
i have to agree. revolvers should still be included otherwise youre pidgeon held into taking those feats and using your grit to get use of all your attacks in a full attack action. unless of course you get quick draw and buy a ton of guns, but unless your carrying 30 or so, one 10 round combat and youre boned with that strategy.
"now whered i drop that other pistol so i can reload it?"
*facepalm*tropy anime ninja.
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anime sword guy.
Sorry, but everyone I play with watches copious amounts of anime, and it saturates my gaming experience. I really just want to see stuff that deviates from that as much as possible.
I know the modern understanding of ninjas and samurai is heavily inspired by how they are presented in anime, but its very old hat and tropy to me.
If you had the secret stash deed feat, you could spend any remaining grit when you go to bed to gain more ammo. also, starting at 11th level you could take signature deed and have unlimited ammo as long as you had at least 1 grit.
That is exactly what I had intended with mine.
So far excellent I plan on running it through a few play tests this evening.
Oh I can so see this dipping into Alchemist now...
*facepalm*tropy anime ninja.
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anime sword guy.
Sorry, but everyone I play with watches copious amounts of anime, and it saturates my gaming experience. I really just want to see stuff that deviates from that as much as possible.
I know the modern understanding of ninjas and samurai is heavily inspired by how they are presented in anime, but its very old hat and tropy to me.
i feel your pain, brother. my group is no different. everyone is in love with anime and the like (over the topness). i prefer to stick to shows such as Spartacus, Justified, The Walking Dead, etc.
That would seem to complicate combat a bit, with figuring out how much armor bonus and how much you can penetrate.
The Touch attack ruling worries me. I prefer it to be able to ignore armor and shield only. As for natural armor, I prefer it to ignore up to a specified maximum, depending on the gun. For example, a pistol ignores up to +4 natural armor, while a musket would ignore up to +6 or +7? Something along those lines.
Monsters have their natural AC bonus listed, so all a DM would need to do is either add the gun's amount it ignores to the die roll to see if it bypasses AC or decrease the monster's AC mentally and compare it to the total rolled, depending on what a DM prefers.
If you mean always having to gloss over a monster's natural AC, especially if it's written as a quick stat, yeah I see what you mean. It could get tedious. I just don't agree with a gun bypassing natural armor completely. Shooting a bullet through an iron golem should not be just as easy as shooting a bullet through displacer beast hide.
I think the guns should be just as realistic as the bows are in this game. :P
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i have to agree. revolvers should still be included otherwise youre pidgeon held into taking those feats and using your grit to get use of all your attacks in a full attack action. unless of course you get quick draw and buy a ton of guns, but unless your carrying 30 or so, one 10 round combat and youre boned with that strategy.
"now whered i drop that other pistol so i can reload it?"
And now I'm remembering "Derringer" Meryl from Trigun.
...that would be like 50,000 gold to supply that characters guns alone...
Yeah, hoping that we can get some weapons upfront that have more than a single shot capacity.
That would seem to complicate combat a bit, with figuring out how much armor bonus and how much you can penetrate.
The Touch attack ruling worries me. I prefer it to be able to ignore armor and shield only. As for natural armor, I prefer it to ignore up to a specified maximum, depending on the gun. For example, a pistol ignores up to +4 natural armor, while a musket would ignore up to +6 or +7? Something along those lines.
True.
On the other hand, most touch attack were magic, which demons had Spell Resistance to, Saving Throws, and Some Immunity vs Elemental damage.
The gun, just bypassed Glabrezu demons +20 natural Armor. So now it is relying on its DR 10/Good.
Throw a Holy enchant on the gun (18,000 gp = +2 holy +1 enchantment), or have a cleric cast align weapon at 3rd level (2nd level spell). Then you can by pass that Damage Resistance.
(( Align weapon can do 50 bullets with a 1 minute/level duration... not effect vs ambush... unless you PC are doing the ambush ))
............
Anyway i expect more creatures to have some sort of damage resistance in the future... in up coming Bestiary's.
another first impression that im getting is that people are looking at the gunslinger the same way i look at the summoner; that they either hate the concept, or, they dont hate the concept they just hate how the class plays out. i dont hate the concept of the summoner but i dont care for the class so therefore i will never play it. i can see people viewing the gunslinger the same way.
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Sorry, but everyone I play with watches copious amounts of anime, and it saturates my gaming experience. I really just want to see stuff that deviates from that as much as possible.I know the modern understanding of ninjas and samurai is heavily inspired by how they are presented in anime, but its very old hat and tropy to me.
Except there was no need to bring 'anime' into this. You could have said 'the pop culture representation of ninjas' because that's what it actually is. Anime sword guy is too broad a term to have relevance here.
And I'm just tired of people declaring fantastic fighters 'anime'.
No such feat... 5th level ability for Gunslingers.To Lazzy to hunt thro 2 books..... Which Feat converts Dex to Damage for range attacks ??You DO get your Dex to dam, and likely the weapon spec damage bonuses, so its not THAT bad.
Considering you have no + to damage from strength, the damage per shot even with GVS is going to be relatively small unless you decide to be carrying around large or huge firearms as an enlarged gunslinger.
Ok found it, way down at the bottom.
I found it an interesting read too. I have met one man that could get three shots off in six seconds with a black powder weapon -- however he is out of practice now and I doubt he can do it that fast any more. Not someone I intend to cross anyway about it!
Just want to say I was completely inaccurate with this statement -- apparently time wasn't going at the same speed for me that it was for everyone else.
That said it doesn't hurt my feelings if there is a means to get more than one shot in a combat round other than having multiple guns.
I really don't see this as an alternate class. thatbsaid it looks neat I like the deed and grit thing and actually would like to see a variation of it in a swashbuckler type.
i feel your pain, brother. my group is no different. everyone is in love with anime and the like (over the topness). i prefer to stick to shows such as Spartacus, Justified, The Walking Dead, etc.*facepalm*tropy anime ninja.
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anime sword guy.
Sorry, but everyone I play with watches copious amounts of anime, and it saturates my gaming experience. I really just want to see stuff that deviates from that as much as possible.
I know the modern understanding of ninjas and samurai is heavily inspired by how they are presented in anime, but its very old hat and tropy to me.
Just do what I do, when one of my players tries to make an over the top anime character, just kill them horribly. Also, seeing your list of TV shows, I might have to use this class to stat up Raylan Givens
Not a fan; at all.
If I wanted something like this; I'd just play Exalted. It's TOO over the top. Wheres the room for the gritty powder soaked Dwarven blunderbussman who trains for years with discipline to eke out that extra shot here and there? That sort of thing doesn't really work with the way this class is built, and that bothers me.
Just my opinion.
-Idle
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If my guns come with THIS and I have Rapid Reload do I get full attack?
Here's a pretty good write-up on them if you want to know more.
SM
Yeah in my play test I evaporated like 275 gold, it seems to be a little steep as it was a fight against goblins and the group made like 175gp total.
I'm Glad I took quick clear as I jammed twice.
Not a character class for a novice player or a player that uses bad tactics. You have to work very hard at keeping range not only to keep in range for touch AC but knowing when not to use your move action so you can reload.
In this case the map is something that almost has to be used, so it is difficult for my mapless style of GMing.
Other than that it worked fine got to do some wacky stunts killed me some goblins and had a lot of fun.
I stat-blocked my Gunslinger he isn't optimized but he was fun to play.
Django CR 1/2
XP: 200
NG Medium Human Gunslinger 1
Init: +3 Senses: Perception +6
DEFENSE
AC 17, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +3 Dex, +0 size)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +1 , Ref +5 , Will +2
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee
Short Sword: +1 1d6 19-20 x2 P
Ranged
2 Pistols: +4 1d8 x4 rng 20ft Cap 1 B or P
STATISTICS
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 12
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats
Rapid Reload (Combat)
Secret Stash Deed (Grit)
Skills: Craft: Alchemy 1 (+6), Craft: Gunsmith 1 (+6), Intimidate 1 (+5),
Knowledge: Local 1 (+6), Perception 1 (+6), Slieght or Hand 1 (+4)
Languages: Common, Elven, Halfling
Traits
Killer (Combat)
Rich Parents (Social)
Racial Traits
+1 skill per level; +1 feat at first level
Class Abilities
Fire Arm: Gain 2 Pistols for free.
Grit: Max Pool 2
Deeds
Quick Clear (Ex)
Except there was no need to bring 'anime' into this. You could have said 'the pop culture representation of ninjas' because that's what it actually is. Anime sword guy is too broad a term to have relevance here.
And I'm just tired of people declaring fantastic fighters 'anime'.
Sure, I can understand that. But we are talking about ninjas and samurai here, and "fantastic pop culture representations" spring largely from Japanese cartoons. In order to express that, I used the most convenient word that came to mind.
I apologize if I've touched on a sore spot. I'm just one of those people that hated Iajutsu Masters and Swordsages and fighten' magic showing up in every game because my DM and three of my fellow players loved it.
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Just in the order that I read through it:
- Alternate class to the fighter: No, they really have little in common except full BAB and I don't see a reason to prevent a player taking both, any more than wizard and sorcerer should be alternate classes to each other (if a player is silly enough to follow two incompatible paths, that's his look-out). If it has to be an alternate to anything, it has elements close to the ranger and monk (the former probably closest), but I'd prefer just to call it a new base class.
- Firearm: Perhaps this means either a musket or two pistols, plus the stated powder and shot, or is it really the intention to start out a pistol-wielder with no ammunition?
- The grit score calls for a lot of bookkeeping, attention and player integrity as it goes up and down. A lot. It seems to scale by .. what? The number and hardiness of creatures the GM sends against the party? How many kills the gunslinger steals from fellow party members? Whatever the player can talk the GM into, in the case of "daring acts"? It doesn't seem to vary by level.
- Pistol whip: What justifies the +2 bonus? The text seems to say that it's a result of being proficient with the attack, which really gives me an unpleasant feeling to read. In general I see a lot of ghosts of 4th edition in this class. I can certainly see why a player who had stacked up his DEX and dumped STR would want a +2 bonus, to make this ability worth using, but please reword this and find a reason to grant it.
- Targeting: Called shots to body locations, I don't like the sound of that.
- Blast Lock: The effects of a miss need sorting out. Increasing the DC by 10 doesn't seem appropriate for all of the methods of opening mentioned, particularly the break DC.
- Brave and Tough: This is flat-out better than the fighter's ability. If the gunslinger gets an accelerated Fortitude save progression, it doesn't need to be hidden in the class abilities but should simply be included in the basic class table - and this will demonstrate the effect it has on balance with other classes, namely that the gunslinger gets some weird 5/6-strength Fortitude save progression that, contrary to first appearances, gives him two good saves.
- True Grit: How many of the listed deeds, plus those granted by feats, cost 1 grit? On first impression, it seems like a majority if not the bulk of them, and a lot of them sound as if they'll cause problems if usable at will (I'll only mention as one example the Secret Stash feat).
Deft Shootist: This is formatted differently than the other feats that grant new deeds (or Grit usages that may or may not be deeds - this needs to be clear). I would say, eww, 4th edition influence, except that I much prefer the Deft Shootist format and the other feats should be written this way.
Signature Deed: This is half of the 20th level capstone ability in a feat, which means that the problems I saw with True Grit will come up much earlier and more often. (edit: But is that really the intention? The descriptive text seems to indicate a very different idea.)
If they decide to make this a separate base class (as it appears to be, and opinion seems in favor of), should they make some restrictions on the classes' weapon proficiencies? I'm not sure that they should be proficient in all simple and martial weapons (even as an alternate fighter), since their focus is so strongly on firearms.
While the class features share nothing in common with the fighter, the gunslinger counts as a fighter. This means fighter feats and all effects for fighters also work for gunslingers.
TBH my first impression is that this seems more like a prestige class, except the guns are given out free instead of being the "cost" of joining the PrC.
The Gunslinger has a version of Bravery, a version of Weapon Training, and a version of Combat feats.
It shares a number of similarities with the Fighter class, and if Ultimate Combat has weapon training stuff for Fighters that includes Guns, then there can be direct conflicts on how they stack.
I think it fits fine as a "sub" or "alternate" class of Fighter. It feels like a specialist Fighter, and really I think opens the door to making alternate classes that are a step up from archetypes (more than just swapping abilities, but retaining the general progression).
I had come up with a "Martial Artist" fighter archetype that changed as much of the Fighter as the Gunslinger does, so now I know it would fit better as a sub-class, rather than an archetype.
While the class features share nothing in common with the fighter, the gunslinger counts as a fighter. This means fighter feats and all effects for fighters also work for gunslingers.
Which isn't really any sort of bonus and doesn't make making the Gunslinger an alternate Fighter class make any more sense.
This is a Fighter alternate class? Really? That... just doesn't make sense. I think they are just pulling this "alternate class" stuff out of the air.
Wow... it happened again...
+1.
I don't like these as "alternate classes". Make 3 new base classes and be done with it. It blends into the system instead of being forced into it. As for the gunfighter, I personally feel the "grit" overcomplicates things by tacking on another system that uses points. Why not just give them normal class abilities instead of something that relies in the player trying to get "points" other than xp?
Except there was no need to bring 'anime' into this. You could have said 'the pop culture representation of ninjas' because that's what it actually is. Anime sword guy is too broad a term to have relevance here.
And I'm just tired of people declaring fantastic fighters 'anime'.
Sure, I can understand that. But we are talking about ninjas and samurai here, and "fantastic pop culture representations" spring largely from Japanese cartoons. In order to express that, I used the most convenient word that came to mind.
I apologize if I've touched on a sore spot. I'm just one of those people that hated Iajutsu Masters and Swordsages and fighten' magic showing up in every game because my DM and three of my fellow players loved it.
+1