We just roll new characters at the level the character died at and try to find reasonable ways to bring the new character into the story.
The last time a DM tried to have a drawback for character death was during a total party kill. An enemy cleric had a scroll of save-or-die and a couple of unlucky rolls laid everyone out.
He said we had to make new characters at one level lower and rerun the same encounter. We collectively said 'no' and that was the end of drawbacks for dying.
Maybe some people find that fun or normal but I can't wrap my head around it.
How does the Eldritch Researcher story feat interact with Words of Power?
Ultimate Campaign wrote:
I've done a similar thing to create a Spiderman-esque character with a drow synthesist summoner.
I'm not as familiar with the Guyver character but it seemed like a sort of Blue Beetle/Super Sentai-type show. I'd definitely grab Skilled (Acrobatics) for the +8 on jumping. Also if your race has it available choose the Favored Class Bonus that reduces the summoning time of your eidolon by 1 round per level. The arm blades could just be refluffed claw attacks with the Improved Damage ability.
Eidolons are really lacking in ranged attacks and Summoner don't really have blast spells so that area might be kind of difficult.
From a roleplaying and flavor standpoint, there is nothing stopping a Cleric from worshiping multiple deities. I could certainly see a Neutral Cleric worship two diametrically opposed deities as a duality or even worship a whole pantheon in general. Such a character could be very interesting to role-play.
However, in terms of jobbing the system to gain access to different domains or feats, only your GM can approve something like that. There is nothing RAW that I'm aware of to support having more than one deity from a crunch perspective.
You've got a lot of multiclassing going on but I can see why you did all the dipping. Oracle wouldn't be a bad choice even though you'd be a few caster levels behind since it would still help to provide you with buffs and versatility. Otherwise I would highly suggest leveling one of your other classes. Another level of Ranger couldn't hurt since you get that first combat style feat. Maybe 1-3 more levels of Monk depending on what kind of armor or fighting style you're going for in order to grab Evasion and Fast Movement.
I'm pretty stoked about this. My group and I really enjoy Epic and high-power play but building or leveling a high-level character takes forever and often times there aren't as many pre-made monsters and scenarios to fight against, making it more work for everyone. My favorite aspect about Mythic that I've heard so far is that it can be implemented at any level of play. I could start a 3rd level campaign with characters that already feel more capable instead of having to wait 10 or 15 levels. It also provides the option to continue playing our level 20 characters while dodging some of the sketchy math that appears in later levels of the game. And as always it will be OGL and open to 3rd parties to add even more options. You've got a great thing going here, Paizo.
I went ahead and purchased the PDF (because I'm easy like that) and posted my review. This is just based on what I saw in the first 30 minutes of reading and skimming, so it could change after I have more time with it. I've barely looked at the feats and spells yet.
I just want to apologize if I sound overly critical in the review. I can tell a lot of work was put into this and I know its not easy being the first publisher (that I've seen) to take a whack at epic PF rules. High level play is near and dear to mine heart, and I can be pretty picky.
While there was a lot I wasn't too keen on, there are also a lot of things I liked. The deity rules are nice and simple and I wouldn't mind seeing Red Goblin release products expanding on that in the future. LRG also made an excellent decision in dropping the old epic spell system and giving casters a normal spell progression up to 12th level.
As I noted in my review, if the LRG could comb through it once more and fix the errors, I'd probably give it 3.5 or 4 stars. At the very least, its a useful resource for anyone aiming to play epic PF, even if they don't necessarily use everything presented therein.
I just found the preview on RPG Drivethru. Those same things bothered me as well. The extra two attacks are rarely ever going to hit at that level and just serve to slow down combat (something thats already bad at epic). And as you said, breaking from the iterative attack pattern just doesn't seem right unless you retroactively add it to high HD monsters, which again slows down combat for attacks that don't hit.
Although its not a deal breaker, the whole "legendary class is a prestige class thing" does add an necessary level of complication that doesn't really serve a purpose. It seems like it would be easier to just keep calling the class "Barbarian" and continue where the Core Rules leave off.
I noticed the part where it allows you to qualify for the legendary class if you have 5 or fewer levels in a "related" prestige class, but what constitutes "related" is sort of vague. The Rogue/Assassin example seems obvious, but there are plenty of other combinations that aren't as clear.
I noticed a few minor mistakes (spelling, some words weren't bolded) but I've come to accept a certain amount of that as long as it doesn't cause confusion.
Still, if I end up with $10 burning a hole in my pocket I may mine it for ideas on class features (unless it gets a really bad review).
Thats a tough as nails CR 14! I definitely agree that it could stand to be bumped up a few CRs, especially since most casters will be worthless unless they have some pretty specific spells. This is a fight best left to beefy guys with high Fort saves. I'spose its mitigated somewhat by the fact that you might not even have to fight it if its spotted early.
Hmm, that wouldn't really save me much. No, thats ok. I can always give the box to someone for Christmas. Thanks for the quick replies, though!
I looked it up on wikipedia and it says they are female skeletal dieties of the stars.
I got the same wiki page as well, though if you keep reading the article there is definitely a good portion about sun-eating and eclipses as well.And remember that the term "deity" is relative in some mythologies. Note that in the article these things have their own deity above themselves. In this case CR 19 doesn't sound unreasonable for the normal kind.
I like how the Aztec mythology has a duel aspect which almost seems to conflict with itself. The creatures are deities of women and childbirth, but yet also attack the sun. That already seems like a great impetus for a campaign. "This evil guy is going to make an artificial eclipse that will turn the normally benevolent Tzitzimitl into giant hate machines!"
Lance LeDuc wrote:
Wonder if we can expect any new playable races.
I think we can expect some of the races seen in the Advanced Races preview and some of the APs in Bestiary 3.
I will greatly miss it's unicorn horn and the tuffs of fur at it's ankles wich are of course the thinks i liked best about it's appearance. Plus it looks too much like a goat when it used to be like a deer.
From what I've seen, antlers are the more traditional route. Besides, having a unicorn horn would just make it an "Asian unicorn" when it really has a lot of its own unique qualities.
Not at all. You have several reasons to suspect invisibility. Even though the character doesn't know for a fact what spell it was, he/she still knows that mages are capable of turning invisible and that it would be a good option in that situation. Not only that, but the mage is clearly still nearby since hes charming people.
Your character can still use common sense even if they can't confirm their suspicions.
Urath DM wrote:
I guess I can understand that, especially if you're using your own setting. It mostly bothers me in established settings (like many of the D&D ones) that claim to have been around for a while. It kinda ruins my suspension of disbelief.
And I full agree with your last statement. I'm sure even fewer people will want to use airship rules, but its nice to have official ones around just in case. Nothing wrong with that at all.
Guns: Seems like it's cashing in on the WoW thing. I don't like guns in my fantasy. WoW gets away with it because... well... I dunno why. But, whatever. The other stuff sounds interesting, and just because the guns are there doesn't mean they have to be used.
I never really understood why people have such an aversion to guns and other "modern" implements in a fantasy setting.Some of these cultures (elves, dwarves, etc) have supposedly existed several times longer than all recorded IRL human history.
Why wouldn't they have invented something beyond just swords and bows? Even just out of sheer boredom?
They've apparently invented repeating crossbows, and those are pretty complex devices.
PS. And what about pirate campaigns? I can't imagine running one of those without cannons and guns, and the high seas are an integral part of the fantasy-genre.
PSS. Also, pew pew.
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Brilliant! That definitely makes things less feat intensive in the initial investment.
Also, just throwing out ideas here in case runes show up in that Eldritch Codex you have going:
Very interesting ideas here. I can definitely see using these on several characters, though I'd also like to see a Runecaster class too. :)
But I have a question about stacking rules for the feats. Many of them are worded as such:
"For every three runic feats you know, treat your bonus as an additional one higher"
This would suggest that the stacking includes this feat itself (therefore stacking faster), although I'm assuming you intended to say "for every three additional runic feats you know", therefore not including the initial feat and making it stack slower.
Sure, I can understand that. But we are talking about ninjas and samurai here, and "fantastic pop culture representations" spring largely from Japanese cartoons. In order to express that, I used the most convenient word that came to mind.
I apologize if I've touched on a sore spot. I'm just one of those people that hated Iajutsu Masters and Swordsages and fighten' magic showing up in every game because my DM and three of my fellow players loved it.
Sorry, but everyone I play with watches copious amounts of anime, and it saturates my gaming experience. I really just want to see stuff that deviates from that as much as possible.
I know the modern understanding of ninjas and samurai is heavily inspired by how they are presented in anime, but its very old hat and tropy to me.
The Gunslinger doesn't share or mirror any abilities or class features with the Fighter, so I'm a bit confused as to how its supposed to be an archtype. I say just make it a separate class and give it a good Fort save. The grit and deeds abilities are too robust compared to all the archtypes that have been presented.
Overall I like the Gunslinger, but as presented it is a full base class.
Ninja - from what I've read, I like it. Its a hybrid Rogue/Monk with a few Alchemist type things (poison/bombs). Its a nice compromise between historical ninja and tropy anime ninja.
Samurai - I'm very happy with this. I was really worried this would be an unarmored, anime sword guy. Sword-guy is already covered by several builds. Instead, this Samurai hearkens back to the 3.5 Knight and its ability to not die.
Are Samurai and Cavalier orders meant to be interchangeable? If not, it might be better just to make Samurai and Ronin two different artchtypes (unless there are going to be more types of Samurai later)
anthony Valente wrote:
I wouldn't worry about it too much. Even if Paizo keeps releasing new material, the rate at which they do so is maybe one core book every 2-3 months. Thats much slower than WotC, which occasionally releases two new hardbacks every month.
At the very least, Ninja deserves its own class variant. While the historical ninja *is* just a Rogue/Assassin/Spy archtype, our modern and mythological understanding of a ninja is much more than just a character skilled at stealth and neat (but mundane) tricks.
If Paizo is up for it, I wouldn't mind a Ninja prestige class or even a full base class. However, I think Rogues already have a lot of great prestige class options (Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Master Spy, Red Mantis, etc) and we should think about showing some love elsewhere first.
I'd personally make a PF Ninja through a class variant (either Rogue or Monk) coupled with a group of supernatural Rogue talents.
I was going to post a reply here but it ended up being too long. I'll create a thread and link here when I get the chance.
You can't kill a god at level 20 (at least, not without some serious plot devices). I've played as high as level 130 (not for the faint of heart, btw) and I have no idea why many people consider the low-epic area (17-30th lvl) to be "silly" or out of hand. Its certainly an acquired taste that not everyone will enjoy, but it always surprises me when someone says they've never played a character above 16 or so.
- As to your first point, I have mixed feelings there. I believe the rules as outlined in the PF core rulebook would work well enough up to maybe 30th level. Beyond that, the difference between good BAB and bad BAB, and good saving throws and bad saving throws would become too great. The only option there is to end the game at 30th level, change how BAB and saves progress (possibly by using rules similar to those in the OGL), or force characters to multiclass into something with a better progression.
- As for having higher level spell slots, thats perfectly fine. According to cannon Forgotten Realms sources, there have been spells up to 12th level, so there is obviously precedent for progressing spells into epic. There are some pretty obvious spells to add in, like say Form of the Dragon IV or Epic Magic Fang.
-Heres what I'd suggest as epic uses for Hero Points: take a full-round action as an immediate action, increase the bonus to the roll to +16/+8, cast a spell two levels higher then you could normally cast, etc. Also, if the character chose the "antihero" variant to get a bonus feat, they gain an epic bonus feat at 21st level.
-As for variant and exotic equipment, this can be covered by larger weapons intended for giants, or unusual weapons intended for planar creatures and monsters with strange anatomy. You could have additional prerequisites, or just require Exotic Weapon/Armor Proficiency.
As for the question of divine power, my thought is that a Rank 1 or 2 deity can drain an entire army of strength or inspire it to extreme heroism, can sink an entire barony into the sea or under the earth, and do other things beyond the dreams of even a 20th level wizard. A Rank 19 or 20 deity can make everybody play 4th Edition, or even Runequest.
I can agree to that, assuming of course that an epic Fighter can make the fort save to not have his strength drained, and an epic Wizard could sink a small country with an epic ritual.Greater gods are several leagues out of the league of epic mortals and demigods, but demigods themselves are only a few steps ahead of epic mortals.
I also think that at some point, maybe Rank 11, a deity's power actually becomes infinite. Before then the deity is merely very great, able to affect entire nations, worlds, even galaxies, but still finite. After Rank 11, there are different levels of infinity, and also different options opened up on within the deity's power.
Why not save infinity for the overgods? How exactly does an infinite being defeat another infinite being? Once they reach rank 11, how would a deity move up or down in the hierarchy?
Perhaps at Rank 1, a deity's spell is calculated in miles rather than feet, so a fireball cast by a Rank 1 deity has a range of over 400 miles, and creates a blast 20 miles radius.
My general rule of thumb is a mile per rank, with intermediate and greater deities being able to affect things anywhere on the planet or even anywhere on another plane they aren't currently on. Even my rank greater god can't boast 20 mile wide fireballs, though his higher level spells come close. Why not something like this?Rank 1-5: miles
Rank 6-10: hundreds of miles
Rank 11-15: the planet
Rank 16-20: the entire plane/galaxy
Rank 21+: reality
(edit: this is just a suggestion for range and awareness. Area of effect should be significantly smaller.)
For every rank above that, the deity's rank is multiplied by the next lower rank, so a Rank 2 deity has spells with twice the range and effect as a Rank 1 deity, a Rank 3 deity has three times the range and effect of a Rank 2 deity, etc. Thus, a Rank 6 deity could cover an entire planet with a Fireball spell.
I'd probably err on the side of less powerful and go with addition rather than multiplication. Not even Zeus or Odin ever displayed the ability to cover the planet in fire.
Not always! Zon-Kuthon often denies himself his spells and tells himself that he's an unworthy worm!
Well, at least he has his free will.
Not necessarily true. That depends a lot on the setting.
True, and on the DM as well. But its assumed to be an option in core Pathfinder and most other settings I've played in. So I assumed it here as well.
Not necessarily. It's a lot about personal preferences. (And remember: This is not D&D. This is Pathfinder)
The Golorian campaign setting is almost identical to Greyhawk as far as how gods are treated. And I seem to remember a certain Vecna getting tore-up by his mortal general, Kas. (yes, Kas was smote afterwords but Vecna was badly maimed).
For the purpose of his campaign setting, we are assuming there are mortals running around that are above 20th level who can accomplish things not in the core rules. I agree that non-epic mortals could never challenge a god without the proper plot device, unless it was a really small god. Like that Zon-Kuthon guy who decided to deny his divine power that day.
Definitely not. Because epic rules are optional. The core game assumes that when you hit level 20, you cannot gain more power. And even if you allow epic rules, it doesn't necessarily mean you will ever surpass the gods.
If mortals are allowed to progress into epic and gain power not covered in the core rules, and gods have defined statistics, there is a point were they can be beaten or at least challenged.
According to the rules, you can't even permanently kill the Tarrasque, not with a billion class levels. At least, nobody found a way yet.
You can't kill it with anything currently presented. That doesn't mean it can't be killed. Same thing with the gods.
Or look at Achaekek, the Mantis God. It's not even a true god, but just a God-Beast. And still, no creature short of a demigod or more powerful divine creature can truly harm it.
Sure you can. If hes got stats, he can be hurt or at least hampered. If I'm a 40th level Barbarian, I can pin him until he says "uncle". And if you've got the stomach for it, you can probably eat him, too. I'd bet hes all kinds of poisonous, but the option is there.
I play a god as a character, I know how this stuff works. A rank 1 or 2 deity is very vulnerable to epic parties. A rank 20 god is impossible, even for an epic party of his level, but there are still mortal (aka non-divine) things out there that can take him down a notch. Granted, sentient evil planets and star dragons aren't part of the core rules, but you can definitely imagine things that can harm an immortal. The core rules aren't intended for people who want this level of play.
Gods always grant themselves their own spells, even if one of their worshipers surpasses them. And, technically speaking, any divine caster can grant themselves their own spells from level 1 through sheer belief, so I'm not sure what the issue is.I personally think deities should be stated. D&D gods are treated much like the real-world Greek and Norse pantheons. They make mistakes, they can be wounded (sometimes permanently), and they have an upper limit to their power and influence. They are not vague or distant entities. There is definitely a point were an epic party (or even an individual) surpasses them. (edit: though I'm sure we'll have trouble agreeing on where that point is)
I certainly can't have divinity be attained at level 30 due to the way I interpret demographics and maintaining consistency with science fiction games. Heck, deities could very well end up in science fiction settings.
To you, what is the difference between a deity and a mortal with advanced technology/magic? What can a deity accomplish that they cant? Maybe that will tell us what you're going for here.
For me, 10-30th level is the quasi-demi range. I'd actually go with a level divisible by 5 or 10. Otherwise you're going to end up with characters and deities with hundreds of levels...unless thats what you want?
I have the 3rd Edition Deities and Demigods book, but I think it makes the deities too weak. I want to make sure that the high level deities, especially, tower above what even epic level PCs can do. My thought: the difference between a Rank 1 deity and a Rank 2 deity is the same as the difference between a 1st level and a 20th level PC.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, but as stringburka said, its pretty much impossible. You're either going to need to change the power level of mortals or seriously lower your expectations of what a deity can and can't do.If a 2nd rank god is effectively 20 levels higher than a 1st rank one, what is there left for a 3rd or 4th rank deity to do? What is a 16th rank deity? Is there even any need for something like that?
Give me an example of a rank 1 and rank 2 deity.
I'd probably place Hercules at about rank 1 and someone like Nike at about rank 3 or 4. Although they have superhuman abilities, neither of them can create universes or anything like that, so in some ways they are less powerful than a level 24 Cleric (and in fact it would take a powerful deity to support an epic Cleric, not to mention a massive religion).
In WotC 3.5, it was possible to become a demigod as early as 30th level by taking the Demigod Epic Destiny.
All of the links zhnov posted are solid stuff. I use Dicefreaks and the Immortal's Handbook regularly and would highly recommend them.
Summon Endless Ninjas
Ninja Minion (CR 1/2)
Cleric Skill Ranks per Level should be 2 + Int modifier not 4 + Int modifier.
I'm going by what the Core Rulebook and srd say. I'm not here to change the non-epic rules. I'm just adding epic on top of them.
In that I agree. Thats why I stopped my progressions at 30th. Anything beyond that and the difference between good and bad BAB and saves becomes far too extreme. I also don't know whether piazo intends to allow epic to progress into infinity or if they just want it to end at some point (30th or 40th lvl is probably the best bet).
While I think the ELH's epic magic system was junk, I do think they got that part of it right - they had a sidebar in there talking about epic progressions and why they changed after 20.
In the ELH, everyone got a +1 to BAB and saves every other level. Basically you were treated as having slow BAB and good saves. This helped control the number but it almost treated epic as a whole different game. It also made you metagame your first 20lvls so you didn't screw up your saves when you multiclassed.
Granted, I only have my game as evidence to go on, but I think that switch in progression was spot on.
Same here. Of course, with all the old 3.5 stuff available, we usually had a way of getting all good BAB and saves by 40th lvl and ignored whatever rules we were using.
Hey, hey! I just started working on this again and thought I'd post a few more ideas. These are going to be more toned down compared to the previous builds I'd posted and will only run from 21-30th level. I'm also hoping to possibly get these printed in Wayfinder #4 so they will be sticking closer to actual PF.
Paraphrased from pg. 407 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook wrote:
Epic BarbarianAlignment: Any nonlawful
Hit Die: d12
Skill Ranks per level: 4 + Int modifier
Rage (Ex): An epic Barbarian continues to gain 2 additional rounds of rage per day for every level after 20th.
Rage Powers: A Barbarian gains a new rage power at 22nd level and every two levels thereafter. Any rage powers with effects based on the Barbarian’s level continue to advance at the same rate. In addition, the Barbarian can also choose from the following epic rage powers:
Bear Warrior (Su): Once per rage, the Barbarian can use the Wild Shape ability of a Druid of her level to take the shape of a bear or dire bear. At the GM’s discretion, other animals may be possible as well.
Deathless Frenzy (Ex): The Barbarian cannot die from hit point loss while raging, though she still takes damage. At the end of her rage, if the Barbarian is at -10 hit points or lower, she instantly dies.
Primal Intuition (Ex): The barbarian gains blindsense to a range of 60 feet while raging. This requires that the Barbarian have the Scent or Night Sight rage powers.
Storm Rage (Su): Any weapon the Barbarian wields while raging is treated as an Anarchic Thundering weapon. In addition, if the Barbarian scores a critical hit, the target is affected as if by the Deafening Critical feat.
Trap Sense (Ex): The Barbarian’s trap sense improves by +1 at 21st, 24th, 27th, and 30th level.
Damage Reduction (Ex): The Barbarian’s DR improves by 1 at 22nd, 25th, and 28th level.
Think anyone would be interested in some lvl 21-30 support for Pathfinder? Feats, class progressions, spells? From what I can tell we shouldn't expect any official epic material for at least a year. I'm sure I can bring it together for Wayfinder 4. I could try for Wayfinder 3 but I'd be worried about getting quality work done in under 2 weeks.
In keeping with Pathfinder, I think you need level 40 capstones for each class and not just sterile "every other level" powers.
Agreed, which is what we where trying to accomplish with these progressions. Unfortunately I've had to put this project on the back-burner while I work on other things.
Thats kind of a bummer, especially since they'd probably do a good job on it.
I know that Pathfinder fully intends to do Psionic and Epic rules in the future(and that this question has probably already been asked), but do you have any plans for a product like Deities & Demigods? (but, y'know, better executed?)