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Improved damage is a different evolution.
The built in evolutions are just that, built into the base form. You don't select them, or unselect them, they are part of the base package.
I might agree with you if it weren't so explicitly spelled out all over the class in big glaring letters "This evolution can be taken more than once".
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What makes you think it's not the simple statement that if you already have it you get a different benefit?
You 'already have it' if you initially don't have it, then take it. If it was intended the way you are reading it, it would say if you 'have it from the base form' instead of 'if you already have it' (like the slam text, which you should read),
So either Slam and Bite make perfect sense and are consistent (the way I read it) or one is definitely inconsistent (the way you read it). Occam's razor (and HeroLab) implies my interpretation until otherwise clarified.
Is there errata/it's already part of the rules and i'm stupid, on augment summoning not affecting eidolons? It's two feats to get those boosts, and we usually play with really high point buys, but very few magic items to offset the ability scores, so in our games the feat is not an "unreasonable" boost.
An amulet of mighty fists +1 is better done via greater magic fang leaving the mighty fists to apply to a weapon enhancement.You will be casting haste the first round, and probably bulls strength the second. Mobs almost never last 2 rounds. Wasting an action casting magic fang is a BIG deal. Also it is range of touch and your Eidolon will be far away after your first haste round.
Greater magic fang is hour/level, therefore it will be on all day so you are not spending your first round casting it.
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First of all, excellent thread and thanks for taking the time to put together an all encompassing guide. Second, would someone mind posting a link to the errata that pertains to the Summoner class, if any, so that we are all discussing the most up-to-date and pertinent information? Including a link to the errata within the guide would also probably be a wise decision. I'd love to weigh in on this bite issue, but just want to make sure we are discussing the same topics. I am reading what is printed in the Advanced Players Guide.
Also, when discussing the class I think it would be beneficial to build the guide to just merely put an asterisk next to feats that are banned in PFS, since it seems several people play this exclusively. For builds I don't think it would hurt then taking into account PFS and making a build straight to 12 since that also would be a common end point. A straight 20 or 18 since most adventure paths end at this level would also be a neat idea.
Regards,
The Bigtuna
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Hey Saph, Guidance and Resistance are unquestionably the most important cantrips. Both you and your Eidolon cannot have cloaks of Resistance. A failed save vs sleep and your Eidolon disappears etc. Guidance can be applied to anyone in the group and since the part about 1 attack is fine since the bite is more important than all other attacks put together, and your first attack is nearly always a charge (1 attack anyway). Also they only take 6 sec to cast, so you can keep it up on multiple people. Guidance also applies to a resist or skill check too, the highest utility spell we have!
There is hardly a single situation ever in any scenario where you wouldn't always want to cast guidance.
There are hardly any level 1 spells as good as guidance and resistance. Also, IMO, mage armor is arguably better to have as a wand than a spell.
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So far the only problem I'm having is the rating on Diehard. Staying conscious keeps your Eidolon around, gives you a few more Hit Points to give it through Life Link, and keeps you from getting a coup de grace to the face.
Plus you can still cast your spells.
EDIT: Okay, the rating for Acid Splash is bugging me too. Yes, it's only a d3 worth of damage. But it's free, which the crossbow bolts are not.
You rated the ranged capabilities of the summoner Red, then rate Acid Splash the same way, when Acid Splash is an at-will spell that targets Touch AC, something that crossbows can't.
EDIT: Okay, the rating for Acid Splash is bugging me too. Yes, it's only a d3 worth of damage. But it's free, which the crossbow bolts are not.
You rated the ranged capabilities of the summoner Red, then rate Acid Splash the same way, when Acid Splash is an at-will spell that targets Touch AC, something that crossbows can't.
There's a reason it's free: it's terrible. Bolts/arrows do double the damage and have superior crit ranges. Sure, they don't strike touch AC, but the difference isn't too great at such low levels.
I can literally think of half a dozen things your summoner can be doing rather than wasting the entire party's time attempting to deal 1-3 acid damage to a single target:
- Cast Daze on a monster in an attempt to cost it its turn.
- Cast Guidance on an ally or your summoned minion to help them hit.
- Move into flanking to provide a +2 to hit for a hard-up ally.
- Attempt to demoralize an enemy with Intimidate (it doesn't even matter if you have ranks in it)
- Fire an arrow/bolt.
- Attempt to "Push" hostile animals to stop attacking or turn on their owners. At level 1 you couldn't realistically do this for other 1-2 INT creatures, since the DC is 30, but a 1st level summoner has a +6/7 bonus to the check so long as she has a single rank in the skill. It's not high success, but it could turn a battle.
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Bolts/arrows do double the damage and have superior crit ranges.
They don't hit NPCs immune to nonmagical damage and you don't want to spend any GP on the magic summoner weapons (it subtracts from Eidolon equipment). You will crit maybe 1-3x in your life as a summoner.
Sure, they don't strike touch AC, but the difference isn't too great at such low levels.
In my experience touch AC is very significant since Summoners have horrible BAB. Bows will miss a lot more.
I can literally think of half a dozen things your summoner can be doing rather than wasting the entire party's time attempting to deal 1-3 acid damage to a single target
So can I, but once you do those things on round 3+ (or are at the end of a campaign and want to preserve spells), an unlimited super-accurate damage option is nice.
- Cast Daze on a monster in an attempt to cost it its turn.
- Cast Guidance on an ally or your summoned minion to help them hit.
- Move into flanking to provide a +2 to hit for a hard-up ally.
- Attempt to demoralize an enemy with Intimidate (it doesn't even matter if you have ranks in it)
- Fire an arrow/bolt.
- Attempt to "Push" hostile animals to stop attacking or turn on their owners. At level 1 you couldn't realistically do this for other 1-2 INT creatures, since the DC is 30, but a 1st level summoner has a +6/7 bonus to the check so long as she has a single rank in the skill. It's not high success, but it could turn a battle.
All of these are occasionally poor options. Daze is HD restricted. Guidance requires touch. Moving into melee range (or Pushing) is dangerous. Arrow/bolts will miss a lot and aren't magic.
I'm not saying it is great (I don't have it currently but considered it), just that its rating should be higher.
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Add a resistance bonus to another item or put it in a non-associated slot.
Any solution that involves GP will directly nerf your Eidolon DPS. You should save nearly all your gold to outfit your Eidolon.
It's also a +1 bonus, making it by definition useless 95% of the time. It's not bad or anything, but 19 out of 20 times it will make zero difference
I don't know how you can go from nearly 100% useful to 95% useless. If you combine all the rolls in a scenario for saves, attacks and skill checks you will WAY exceed 20, especially if kept up on more than one person.
and if you try to keep Resistance and Guidance up on multiple people you'll be doing nothing else all day.
The problem with situational +1 bonuses that require activation is the 'attention' issue . . . it's getting to the point where you have to seriously consider whether they're worth the time it takes to tell the DM that you're doing it.
I have a convention with my GMs where I say 'I'm spamming' right before a deliberate skill check (like Diplomacy) or when I know there's a chance to enter combat (about to open a door). It only takes 2 words, is obvious, and wastes hardly any time.
PS - I'm expecting some Eidolon builds from you. You keep saying that your build is clearly the best, so I'm waiting for you to prove it. :)
I have proven many things, but as you haven't incorporated clearly better advice (like any non-Half-Elf build is horrible), I have doubts as to whether anything I post will be incorporated and am going to wait and see for now.
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1. It's two feats. That's a lot, and you don't have many.
2. While it keeps you upright longer, it also increases the chance that when you do go down, you'll be dead. In my experience characters can often drop to Dying and be healed up after the fight, but if you take another attack while you're using Diehard it's usually fatal.Basically, if you want more HP, I think you should go for Toughness instead.
Agree with Saph here. High feat cost and summoner's are hardly useless without their Eidolon so the Summoner's survivability (as opposed to the Eidolon's) is paramount. I have on several occasions benefited from my Eidolon dying (or intentionally 'poofed' it to use a summon SLA).
A couple of things I noticed looking over your guide so far...
Your overstating the ability to keep your eidolon alive by using your HP's via the link ability. those can only be used if the attack would kill it outright. So if its just enough damage to bring it to negative without killing it your extra hit points are wasted. Especially at lower levels, this is going to be the most likely result.
For skills, handle animal is actually very useful as you need it to have any animal you summon perform anything more complex than a basic attack.
For skills, handle animal is actually very useful as you need it to have any animal you summon perform anything more complex than a basic attack.It's great for a single rank dip (for +4), as with a decent CHA this should be able to accomplish it.
If you pick up a circlet of persuasion (say to augment that high CHA of yours) then you certainly will tap any DC 10 check even if you wouldn't already (by having a modified 20CHA).
The DC to push an animal that doesn't know the trick is DC 25, which is likely the assumed DC for summoned creatures. Because of this, Handle Animal is a great investment for summoners- especially when you consider that you can Push any creature of 1-2 INT with a DC 30 check.
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I'm using the Pathfinder SRD for reference, so errata shouldn't be an issue assuming it's up to date.I don't play PFS unfortunately, so I don't know what the differences are. If anyone wants to write a guide to that I'll include it, but so far I've only had one person say they do.
Well assuming that then I 100% completely agree with what Ogre is saying. I also think this is a rather important topic to discuss with this guide since it will play heavily into Eidolon builds. I respect Hero Lab for what they came out with and it is a useful tool, but this is pretty cut and dry if you just read it out of the Advanced Players Guide.
Pg. 60 of the Advanced Players Guide
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."
Bite:"If the Eidolon already has a bit attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 its strength modifier on damage rolls made with a bite."
Looking at the Eidolon's the only ones that already have a bite are Quadrupeds and Serpentine. Using the above info would mean they are the only ones that can benefit from the 1.5x strength modifier.
The other forms of bite people were referencing only seem to appear in the Hero Lab program so I'm not sure how they came up with their logic, but this seems pretty clear cut to me.
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I'm using the Pathfinder SRD for reference, so errata shouldn't be an issue assuming it's up to date.I don't play PFS unfortunately, so I don't know what the differences are. If anyone wants to write a guide to that I'll include it, but so far I've only had one person say they do.
Well assuming that then I 100% completely agree with what Ogre is saying. I also think this is a rather important topic to discuss with this guide since it will play heavily into Eidolon builds. I respect Hero Lab for what they came out with and it is a useful tool, but this is pretty cut and dry if you just read it out of the Advanced Players Guide.
Pg. 60 of the Advanced Players Guide
"Unless otherwise noted, each evolution can only be selected once."Bite:"If the Eidolon already has a bit attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 its strength modifier on damage rolls made with a bite."
Looking at the Eidolon's the only ones that already have a bite are Quadrupeds and Serpentine. Using the above info would mean they are the only ones that can benefit from the 1.5x strength modifier.
The other forms of bite people were referencing only seem to appear in the Hero Lab program so I'm not sure how they came up with their logic, but this seems pretty clear cut to me.
Because right in the book, under the base forms, it says that the Quad and the Serpentine both have the "BITE" evolution as "FREE EVOLUTIONS".
Its not that they just get to bite as an action, and thats built in...they actually have an evolution called "BITE".
Therefore, if those can take the "BITE" evolution as a free evolution for being created, then again as a chosen evolution by paying for the points and having the SAME evolution twice, then so can the bi-ped.
Otherwise, NO build what-so-ever would be able to take the "BITE" evolution at all a second time.
HeroLabs simply renamed it "BITE" and "BITE, IMPROVED" to make it obvious and easy.
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Because right in the book, under the base forms, it says that the Quad and the Serpentine both have the "BITE" evolution as "FREE EVOLUTIONS".
Its not that they just get to bite as an action, and thats built in...they actually have an evolution called "BITE".
Therefore, if those can take the "BITE" evolution as a free evolution for being created, then again as a chosen evolution by paying for the points and having the SAME evolution twice, then so can the bi-ped.
Otherwise, NO build what-so-ever would be able to take the "BITE" evolution at all a second time.
HeroLabs simply renamed it "BITE" and "BITE, IMPROVED" to make it obvious and easy.
Huh, I suppose that's one way of looking at, but that seems a bit nitpicky. I'd think they would state it rather explicitly this can be taken twice (like in other traits such as arms or tail) if you could, while with the eidolon "Free Evolutions" it seems they are more or less just describing what traits the eidolon has not literally that you have already picked from the little checklist of evolutions you select. Poor wording on their part I guess.
Huh, I suppose that's one way of looking at, but that seems a bit nitpicky. I'd think they would state it rather explicitly this can be taken twice (like in other traits such as arms or tail) if you could, while with the eidolon "Free Evolutions" it seems they are more or less just describing what traits the eidolon has not literally that you have already picked from the little checklist of evolutions you select. Poor wording on their part I guess.
Because right in the book, under the base forms, it says that the Quad and the Serpentine both have the "BITE" evolution as "FREE EVOLUTIONS".
Its not that they just get to bite as an action, and thats built in...they actually have an evolution called "BITE".
Therefore, if those can take the "BITE" evolution as a free evolution for being created, then again as a chosen evolution by paying for the points and having the SAME evolution twice, then so can the bi-ped.
Otherwise, NO build what-so-ever would be able to take the "BITE" evolution at all a second time.
HeroLabs simply renamed it "BITE" and "BITE, IMPROVED" to make it obvious and easy.
Yeah, I have to agree with his interpretation as it is both the intuitive reading of it and a proper technical interpretation.
Alter self is awesome for the eidolon. You have a huge multitentacled eidolon and suddenly it can be a nondescript human to enter into town? This is worth it. You'll want to extend & recast this with a full CL duration for reasonable stays. Worth knowing.
You realize they chopped the duration to 1 min/level? That barely gives enough time to do a stop and go even when extended.
Create pit should be replaced with higher level ones, but it is still good on a scroll for use on friendlies.
A heightened create pit serves much the same purpose and leaves you with effectively more upper level spells. The damage really isn't relevant, it's the fact that they're gone for 1+1/level rounds.
Invis should be better as its duration is much nicer than greater invis's.
Despite both being invis spells, they serve extremely different purposes. Invis is much more for sneaking around or cheesing it out of there. Greater invis on your eidolon is immensely potent, especially if you drop yourself into a pit to protect your ass. Also greater invis will be immensely appreciated by the party rogue (who isn't going to say no to sneak attack every round?).
Lesser Evol surge when you retrain this pick up a wand of it.
This is one that I can see as reliably being needed on a very regular basis, it could get quite expensive to have it on a wand.
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Alright, as a second post I'll post some feedback on the spell section.
Resistance might be good enough to rate as blue just because it is a useful buff for your eidolon.
Expeditious Retreat At minutes per level this is a really solid buff. Especially being first level this is something that never stops being good. 30 extra feet and the ability throw it on the eidolon (target you) is solid. I agree haste is amazing and will be a must cast in a serious combat, but for the minor combats where it doesn't warrant it this is a good lesser.
Invisibility While obviously not as good as greater invisibility the duration is quite a bit more user friendly at minutes/level. This also then pairs really well with Fly for nice and stealthy movement or don't attack me pay attention to my creature.
Dominate Monster With immunities, Spell Resistance, and a Save to worry about it's awesome when it works obviously, but i don't think i'd rate it as high as you do.
These were the ones that kind of stuck out to me, but overall it's pretty good.
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Why Human Summoner's are gimp:
Lame Human Summoner's Biped Eidolon level 5
Assume: Summoner's Call - Strength is active (Str+2) and Power Attack
Feats: Weapon Focus - Bite and Power Attack
Evolutions: Str+2, Bite, Trip-Bite, Tentacle, Energy Attacks-Acid
Attack Routine: Bite (x2 with Haste) +9 (2d6+10), Claw x2 +8 (d4+d6+10), Tentacle +3 (d4+d6+5)
Half-Elf Summoner's Biped would have Improved Bite, making the Bites +9 (2d6+15)
At level 5, That is 5 more damage on the first round and 10 more damage per round after. At level 6 the human's eidolon picks up improved bite and the half-elf's eidolon swaps tentacle for gore:
Level 6 Tentacle: +4, d4+d6+5
Level 6 Gore: +9, 2d6+10
So at level 6 the half-elf has +5 more to one attack and when it hits it does 6.5 more damage.
This evolution point discrepancy doubles at level 8, triples at level 12, etc.
That is a MASSIVE amount of damage compared to the human's extra feat or skill. Name any class in the world that wouldn't trade a feat slot for +10 damage or double the +attack bonus and 6.5 more damage in an attack, etc.
Now quintuple that discrepancy (+5 evolution points @ level 20) since humans scale to be HORRIBLY inferior to half-elf.
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Will all you who infer that the APG has a hidden nerf to some bites but not others please read the slam text and answer to me why they even distinguish between base form evolutions and selected evolutions? It is obvious that Paizo found no need to make that distinction for any skill (like Bite) aside from Slam. Comprende?
Will all you who infer that the APG has a hidden nerf to some bites but not others please read the slam text and answer to me why they even distinguish between base form evolutions and selected evolutions? It is obvious that Paizo found no need to make that distinction for any skill (like Bite) aside from Slam. Comprende?
It's not "hidden," nor is it even a nerf. Outright, the rules say you can take it only once. Free evolutions do not count towards this, hence why they are "free." The Biped can't take it twice, RAW and RAI.
The Slam thing is completely different. The description is saying that if the base form has arms and claws (the Biped), then it can be given Slams instead of the Claws for one point. The whole point of Paizo doing that is so that you have a choice of which type of natural attack you can have (slash or bludgeon).
Free evolutions do not count towards this
So here's the level 1 picks for every serpentine: reach (bite), trip with combat reflexes for it's feat. Normally it takes a few levels to do the spiked chain cheese.
However, let us assume for a moment that you're accurate on this point. You still cannot have two bite attacks.
If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.
The bite evolution does not look for whether or not the eidolon has the bite evolution already or not, it looks for whether or not the eidolon has a bite attack. Free evolution or not, the eidolon already possesses a bite attack, and so when it selects the bite evolution it merely gains the second ability of the bite evolution because it possesses a bite attack already. End of discussion.
Free evolutions do not count towards thisSo here's the level 1 picks for every serpentine: reach (bite), trip with combat reflexes for it's feat. Normally it takes a few levels to do the spiked chain cheese.
However, let us assume for a moment that you're accurate on this point. You still cannot have two bite attacks.
If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this evolution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite.The bite evolution does not look for whether or not the eidolon has the bite evolution already or not, it looks for whether or not the eidolon has a bite attack. Free evolution or not, the eidolon already possesses a bite attack, and so when it selects the bite evolution it merely gains the second ability of the bite evolution because it possesses a bite attack already. End of discussion.
I am not sure what you are trying to get at. I never claimed that you can take the Bite evolution twice to get two attacks - that's precisely what I'm arguing against. Unless an Eidolon has the Bite evolution, it doesn't have a bite attack - plain and simple. Why else would its description say that the evolution "[gives] it a bite attack"?
The Biped does not start with the Bite evolution at default; obviously of course, it can pick it up any time. However, RAW the Bite evolution only be selected once. Note that this is specific to the evolutions that require points to purchase - the free evolutions do not count towards this limit. Hence, the two base forms that already have Bite as a free evolution can purchase it for the enhanced version, while the Biped, which has no initial Bite attack, can only benefit from what the other two had to begin with.
I don't understand your last point - I know that the Eidolon can only have a Bite attack if it has the Bite evolution, free or otherwise. My point is that since the Biped does not have Bite as a free evolution, it does not "already [have] a bite attack." To gain that prerequisite Bite attack, a Biped would need the Bite evolution, but at that point, it can go no further because you can only "select" Bite once.
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Does it make sense for 2 forms to be able to have the same evolution twice, but not the 3rd form?
@ erik542, where do you think the serpentine and the quad forms got the bite attack in the first place? Do you specifically assume that they get it just "because", or could it be maybe because they already have the "BITE" evolution, whether free or not?
It can't be both ways...either ALL eidolons can have "BITE" 2 times, or none of them can, regardless of whether or not they start with the BITE free because of base form or not.
I'd figure for the guide's sake that I'd point out a few notable monsters that can be summoned.
level 1: Nothing really interesting, the eagle flies, and the viper poisons.
level 2: You got a horse! The elementals can be nice for their special abilities
level 3: Lantern archon's ok for the aura, and the snake can grapple.
level 4: The hound archon is very nice. It can spam aid, has an aura with a decent save, and a constant magic circle vs evil.
The mephits are good for their SLA's (stinking cloud is nice) and if you're in the right region they get their healing too.
level 5: Level 5 has some very nice SLA's to abuse
Ankylosaurus for the stun lock at a very rough DC 23 and +14 to hit.
Babau allows gives you dispel at will. See invis is nice too.
Azata gives you healing, and can buff the party up with blur
Level 6: Erinyes can navigate you through illusions with it's true seeing
Invisible Stalker, you never know when an invisible man might be helpful
Lillend Azaya gives you some healing power, can cast invis on party, speak with plants and animals, knock, hallucinatory terrain, and some charming. Albeit might be a bit unwhelming by time you get it.
Shadow Demon gives you shadow conjuration and shadow evocation. So basically he's a nice toolbox.
Succubus has some charming with DC's in the 20's.
Level 7: The T-Rex can just eat people with it's +32 grapple and swallow whole. Oh and it has a better perception check than you.
The rest are pretty generic beat sticks or meat shields. Well I didn't look at the level 9's, but by then you should have access to most utility either personally or through party members.
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I have never found a use for a Lantern archon - though it sounds useful, an Auroch has never failed to be more useful.
Saph, please mention that when you summon you should always summon the beast 10 feet or more away to have it both charge (for the +2 attack) and flank (for +4 to all melee attacks on the round).
Also, I would mention the smite evil/good ability should always be used immediately since summoned creature HPs are horrible and they often get 1-rounded.
Finally, I would advise that there is no reason to first dispel the Eidolon then summon a monster. The RAW says that both the Eidolon and the Summons cannot exist at the same time. In other words, you should be able to summon a beast and it dispels the Eidolon for you in the same round.
I would also specifically mention the utility of a fire elemental to kill swarm NPCs (which is VERY useful as the Eidolon and most spells are useless against them).
Why is resistance not at a higher rating? You can't have 2 cloaks of resistance so it is a cantrip that is almost as valuable as a cloak of resistance (far better than message cantrip)
Saph: Why isn't Biped rated higher than Quadruped? It has provably higher damage per round for every level (unless you are rating it for non-combat use like RPing, move speed or use as a mount etc)?
Any feedback, advice, comments etc. would be very welcome.
I like what I'm seeing so far (and just built a Gnome Summoner with a Quadruped Eidolon Mount at level 1 for a Serpent's Skull game).
However, I will say that Alarm is both a better spell than you rate it (not saying it's blue, but it's not red), and the 'just put the Eidolon on watch' requires a (common) house rule... as when the summoner goes to sleep, the Eidolon goes poof.
Any feedback, advice, comments etc. would be very welcome.I like what I'm seeing so far (and just built a Gnome Summoner with a Quadruped Eidolon Mount at level 1 for a Serpent's Skull game).
However, I will say that Alarm is both a better spell than you rate it (not saying it's blue, but it's not red), and the 'just put the Eidolon on watch' requires a (common) house rule... as when the summoner goes to sleep, the Eidolon goes poof.
Which reminds me of a minor benefit of going pure elf. Since you don't sleep, your eidolon does not poof at night.
For a constrictor build, other feats that you might like are agile maneuvers (make all that dex good for something) and suffocating strangulation (from the shambling mound). If the DM allows suffocating strangulation, it's nice to have a nonlethal way to end combat. Also if you can get your CMB high enough, don't forget that grab allows you grapple multiple people and be a kraken. Fun times.
Also have you considered the nom-beast? Take a biped or quadruped base, take the grappling feats and boost up bite damage to maximize the swallow whole DPR.
There is also an archer build, just spam the arms evolution (maybe a few defensive ones) and equip it with a crap load of bows and take some archery feats. Today we shall fight in the shade :)