I note the glaring distinction of the spell list not having mage armour....for a magus devoted to combat, this seems very odd. Yes he has shield, and later a popup sheild arcana. Given that one needs both offense and defence in mellee, why doesnt he have mage armour? Im guessing the extended duration was an issue. Why not allow a reduced version as an arcana pool ability? +2ac for 1/min/lvl, increased by +1ac every 5levels or what have you.
The other majorly odd thing is that for a character focused on combat/magic, his lack of +1bab at lvl 1 restricts him overly from a ton of combat feats. Exotic weapon? nuhuh. Power attack? no way....and so on.
The cleric has better armour, better spells, and more powers at lvl1. So tell me again why I should be playing a magus?
I'd strongly consider upping this BAB progression to 1/1. Or at the very least, slide the 3/4 progression up a level so the magus starts at +1 (topping out at +16).
On the subject of feats, to do what is arguably the class feature of spell combat, you basically have to take combat casting. Should this not be a class feature then?
I keep wondering what this class is supposed to do???
Its not really that good at fighting (having a bab no better than a rogue/cleric, and lacking the mobility or striking power of the rogue, or the armour and spell/power ability of a cleric). You are not fast enough to avoid other strikers, nor have enough armour, nor can you really put things away with your own striking ability until maybe later levels where your spells start to power up.
You cant really stand back and shoot or blast though either. Again lacking bab or spell slots to do this. Or any kind of spontaneous casting like a sorceror...why isnt his magic cha based anyways?
Another area lacking, controlling. You dont really do anything to control the area or enemy. Grease and obsucring mist? Is that it? No hold or charm effects? Cause fear? Or duelling focused spells like doom?
Im really surprised at the spell list to be honest, youd think something like heat metal would be in there for a start. And some new specialized spells that disarm people, trap weapons, rebound attacks, deflect arrows....there are a whole slew of ideas that could go into war magic here folks!
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Anyways, here's my human lvl1 20pt build;
str16
int15
wis10
dex14
con13
cha10
10hp (favrdcls)
17ac (chainshirt)18AC vs single enemy
longsword (plan to move to bastard sword and power attack to maximize 2hand damage while being able to easily free a hand for spell combat)
dodge (not sure on this one, but seems like a slamdunk to get a little ac given the lack of other combat options other than expertise, which I have no plan on ever using)
combat casting
expert duelist(+1ac vs single adj.enemy)
focused mind(+2 concentr.)
So both feats and traits focused on AC and concentration. I cant see any reason to do anything else, although I would love access to bastard sword/power attack asap....sigh. I know some here are fans of dervish dance, etc. but anh, that does nothing for me.
5 skill points, arguably required to put into the 5 trained only skills (know(arcana,dungeon, planes)spellcraft and UMD).
detect magic
prestigidation
daze(the star cantrip imo with spell combat)
shield
burning hands
(these cover emergency defence and aoe damage, later add either chill touch or shocking grasp, and then some utility spell like jump/silent image/unseen servant)
So you'd rather spend a feat AND a trait to get +1ac? When dodge does that for the cost of just the feat?
Combat expertise is more of a gateway feat than actually useful feat in PF. If you dont intend on tripping or disarming etc., I would'nt use it.
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Im beginning to think that heirloom weapon is the way to go instead of expert duellist. My build right now is only +1 to hit when using spell combat. Heirloom weapon essentialy counters the -2 to hit (at the same time increasing normal chances to hit by +2 all the time!) AND it gives me my bastard sword right now!
In a PFS game, it can be magicked later as well. Bonus.
Just pray it never breaks, because then that trait is lost forever, short of magic mending of some kind I guess.
That +2 to hit is immense though....
EDIT: Never mind...
You get 2 more first level spells (Int 15).
I assume the Magus does not have Mage Armor because he is expected to wear actual armor, being proficient with it and all. Which is actually better than Mage Armor, since the Magus has very limited spells per day and wouldn't want to burn one on Shield AND one on Mage Armor.
I assume the Magus does not have Mage Armor because he is expected to wear actual armor, being proficient with it and all. Which is actually better than Mage Armor, since the Magus has very limited spells per day and wouldn't want to burn one on Shield AND one on Mage Armor.
He's a fighter and spellcaster. He gets higher BAB and hps in addition to spells as a consequence.
Why then would he not be allowed to stack armour with mage armour spells? Honestly?
Mage armour is pretty darn good with a long duration though, thats the only reason I saw this being a potential issue. Thus my proprosal to turn it into a limited version used with arcane pool points.
I assume the Magus does not have Mage Armor because he is expected to wear actual armor, being proficient with it and all. Which is actually better than Mage Armor, since the Magus has very limited spells per day and wouldn't want to burn one on Shield AND one on Mage Armor.He's a fighter and spellcaster. He gets higher BAB and hps in addition to spells as a consequence.
Why then would he not be allowed to stack armour with mage armour spells? Honestly?
Mage armour is pretty darn good with a long duration though, thats the only reason I saw this being a potential issue. Thus my proprosal to turn it into a limited version used with arcane pool points.
mage armor does not stack with real physical armor, you can use one OR the other not both. It's like trying to use a real shield and cast the spell shield. they don't stack.
No sense in having a spell on the list that can't be used unless you wake up naked.
Is there a faq answer that states you only apply one shield or armor bonus? I seem to recall that was the case in 3.5 but pathfinder doesnt state that in the spell description or AC text.
At any rate, adding an enhancement bonus to the magus armor could still be an applicable arcane pool option.
Found the most relevant text finally, in the equipment-armor section;
The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn’t stack
with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus.
Odd that they wouldnt mention that in the actual armor class section, but there you go.
I think you have this discussion confused with some other discussion on scouts though...
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Advice:
- Don't take Dodge for the AC. In the long haul, +1 AC is cute but not terribly relevant. If you take Dodge, do it because you plan to Spring Attack, which the mid-level Magus doesn't exactly rock at doing.
- The magus plays best, in my opinion, as a fighter who casts spells. Kinda like a melee-oriented bard. Good feats at 1st level include:
Combat reflexes
Defensive Combat Training
Toughness
Quick Draw
Arcane Strike (although the magus does have lots of other swift actions, this makes a good backup)
Combat Casting
- Burning Hands is kinda useless at level 1. 1d4 damage, save for half. Whoopty-doo. You're far better off with a flask of acid.
- I agree that the Magus should have access to Mage Armor. However, as it is a spell that can be cast on others, it should be possible for any group to access Mage Armor within a few levels.
- True Strike is fun.
This class just screams out for an arcane bond ability as the wizard, except with their chosen weapon. Perhaps the chosen weapon simply adds 1 to the arcane pool? Or expand the familiar arcana to allow a choice between that or an item bond?
Im looking at APG (and some core) spells, and did the designers just miss these great and thematic spells for a magus?!
1
break
gravity bow
touch of gracelessness
2
protection from arrows
darkvision
daze monster
retrieve item
and so on....as I see it, the magus spell list should be about combat, buffs thereof, ranged strikes, enemy 'debuffs' and utility to aid those areas. Most spells should have the caster as the target or the enemy(ies). So invisibility and mirror image are fine, but other freestanding illusions are not. Affecting other things like traps, doors, free standing items that are not weapons and armour, undead etc. are not, but affecting weapons and armour, ours or theirs, is.
Look at the list above; break, gravity bow, protection from arros, retrieve item..all stuff about our weapons and armour or theirs. gracelessness and daze monster....enemy debuffs. Darkvision, the lone utility (hard to fight if you cant see your enemy).
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lyrax, combat reflexes and defensive training are very situational, the former almost never comes up and the latter will be no different from dodge until 5th level (+1 swing) and by that point, care to wager how many attacks versus combat maneuvers the average character faces?
Toughness is alright, but quick draw is another combat feat with BAB+1 as a requirement. Arcane strike? Id much rather wait until 2nd and take power attack thanks. We get the same thing only better with our arcane pool ability anyways.
Combat casting, absolutely. Thats why I took it.
Honestly, I went through all the combat feats and either I couldnt take it or none really grabbed me, thematically or practically.
And yeah burning hands is weakish at lvl1, but it does something the class cant do otherwise, which is AOE damage. And it gets progressively better...as far as lvl1 purely offensive spells go, next to chill/shocking, I think they are the best.
This isnt a mage after all, where sleep/grease/color spray are king at lvl1. Youre going to be piling on other damage on top of your spell damage to take people down mostly.
True strike is lame. Turn what might hit anyways into a single hit? Not worth the spell slot, sorry. I really wish that spell had been an auto-threat (your roll is a 20) instead. That would be entertaining, you'd still have to roll to confirm (ie:hit) normally. But if wishes were fishes....
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Color spray is even BETTER for the magus then a wizard. You have spell combat at level 1...so you can color spray the lot and THEN attack the helpless fools. For a wizard, color spray is a bit dangerous actually.
Bastard sword can't be used two hand at all while doing spell combat so it's not as useful as you think. Spell combat is a full round action and your must have a hand free for the WHOLE action. I suppose you can two hand it for extra damage when your not doing spell combat...but you can do that with a longsword already anyways.
In a PFS game there is no item creation period. So no, you can't magic up a heirloom item...not that heirloom item is allowed in a PFS game anyways. Unless they changed it recently.
I think either my 3.5 memory is overcoming my limited pfrpg knowledge here in relation to color spray...although granted its not one I've used alot in either game. Burning hands is going to get better though, whereas color spray is not. anh, comes down to preference I guess.
Aware of the bastard sword issues, but the point is that more often than not I expect the magus to be fighting with one weapon and not using spell combat, and bastard sword seems the best way to maximize that one weapon use while still allowing attacks with spell combat rounds.
You can upgrade MW items to magic rather than buy new in PFS games, thats what I was referring to, and adventurer's armory is legal in the current PFS doc, so maybe you are thinking of an older version?
Bonuses of the same type do NOT stack unless otherwise stated, why you would assume they do is beyond me as this is not just an armor bonus rule, it applies to all bonuses in the entire game. Color spray vs. burning hands is entirely an issue of damage vs. crowd control, neither one is "better" than the other just different.
Found the most relevant text finally, in the equipment-armor section;
The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn’t stack
with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus.Odd that they wouldnt mention that in the actual armor class section, but there you go.
I think you have this discussion confused with some other discussion on scouts though...
Actually on page 179 about AC it says....
Dodge Bonuses: Dodge bonuses represent actively
avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your
Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing
armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it
limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of
bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
This class just screams out for an arcane bond ability as the wizard, except with their chosen weapon. Perhaps the chosen weapon simply adds 1 to the arcane pool? Or expand the familiar arcana to allow a choice between that or an item bond?
If I were to give arcane bond to the magus, I would make it could be either a familiar, or a weapon, with the benefit being that any arcana used on this weapon costs one less arcane pool point (minimum 1) and the concentration penalty is reduced by 1 when using this weapon. Perhaps increase the 1's to 2's at level 10 and to 3's at level 20.
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Here is the 1st level Magus i put together for PFS. I found him fun to play.
Mithos was born tens of thousands of years ago. He lived in Koynin during the time of Earthfall. He was a Leuitenant in the guard. His squad was guarding an elf gate while civilians were evacuating. An oger mage tried to get through the elf gate. In the ensuing battle, the Oger mage used a spell to turn Mithos into stone. Then Earthfall struck. The oni was killed, and Mithos, or his petrified self and the elf gate were burrried in volcanic ash, which later turned into Bassalt, or volcanic stone. Mithos’s stone form survived some ten thousand years. The elves returned to Konynin. And eventually an elven archeological team excavated the elf gate. They also found Mithos. A wizard recognized that he was a petrified elf, and he was turned back to the flesh. He has taken a vacation from his post as a guard and joined the pathfinders, He wants to see the world as it is now.
Init +3 Perception +0
Combat:
Masterwork Bastard Sword ( Katanna)
+4 1d10 +2 19-20 x2
Dagger
+2 1d4+3 19-20 x2
AC 17 ( Chain shirt 4 Dex +3)
FF 13
TCH 14
Hit points: 10 (8+1 con, +1 hp favorite class)
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 16
Cha 10
Saves:
FT: 3
RF: 3
WL: 2
CMB: 12
CMD: 15
Skills 2+int =5, Craft +7( cooking chief) , Knowledge Arcana +7,Knowledge Dungeoneering +7, Knowledge the planes +7, Spellcraft +7,
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Masterwork Bastard sword. +1 trait bonus to hit with that weapn.
Focused Mind: +2 trait bonus to concentraition checks
Class abilities
Arcane Pool: =1/2 lvl +int modifier= 4= Spents 1 point to give a +1 enhancment bonus swift action on a weapon.
Spell Combat: full round action -2 attack, cast defensively.
Can give a bonus to concentraition check equal to int modifer=+3. Penalty to attack
Casting a spell Defensivly DC= 15+ double spell level. 1st level spell= 17
Concentraition check: d20+caster level+ ability modifier+trait bonus = +6
Spellbook
Cantrip: all magus cantrips
Spells 1st level: 6: Magic missle, Grease, Color Spray, True Strike, shield, Floating disc
Cantrips: 3 Acid Splash, Read magic, Detect magic
Spells: 1) 2 Color Spray, Shield.
6 spells in spellbook
Equitment: 150 gp
Chain shirt 100 gp : +4 ac
Mstwk Bastard Sword: 35gp 1d10
2 Daggers 2 gp d4
Spell component pouch 5 gp
8 gp left.
I wouldn't send him first into combat. I would let the fighter type engage the monster, then i would have my magus come around for the flanking position and then attack. I liked having the Bastard Sword, because it gave me some flexibility, i could wield it one handed, and still cast spells, like color spray, or if i wielded the bastard sword two handed it gave me an extra point of damage. However if we got ambushed, my magus could hold it off, for a round or two, while the other party members moved in to attack.
We are dealing with a hybrid class. is it going to be as good as a fighter? no. is it going to be as good as a Wizard? no.
As for comparing a magus to a cleric, the cleric class is an anomoly, because it has 2/3 attack progression, two good saves, d8 hit dice, simple weapons, medium armor, and two domains with spells and abilities, Channel energy, and a full spell casting progression, this class by design in my opinion is a cut above the Figher, Wizard, Thief basic classes.
Anyways i had fun playing my magus. I hope my character build gives you some ideas
Im looking at APG (and some core) spells, and did the designers just miss these great and thematic spells for a magus?!
The final version is not published yet, so you still might see more APG spells.
....as I see it, the magus spell list should be about combat, buffs thereof, ranged strikes, enemy 'debuffs' and utility to aid those areas.
The Magus is intended to have attack spells, and to be somewhat short on utility and control. The designers have specifically mentioned that they don't intend to give all of the best combat buffs to the Magus. Among other things, copious self buffing eliminates the need for other characters who's primary job is to cast spells.
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This class just screams out for an arcane bond ability as the wizard, except with their chosen weapon. Perhaps the chosen weapon simply adds 1 to the arcane pool? Or expand the familiar arcana to allow a choice between that or an item bond?
Im looking at APG (and some core) spells, and did the designers just miss these great and thematic spells for a magus?!
1
break
gravity bow
touch of gracelessness
2
protection from arrows
darkvision
daze monster
retrieve item
The Magus list is still being refined, dude. Chill. They'd rather add stuff they need to add than take away stuff that makes the class too powerful.
combat reflexes and defensive training are very situational, the former almost never comes up and the latter will be no different from dodge until 5th level (+1 swing) and by that point, care to wager how many attacks versus combat maneuvers the average character faces?
Combat reflexes is situational. And you can provoke situations wherein it is useful, especially with Enlarge Person. Defensive combat training will level up with your character and chances are that you'll want to have it sooner or later.
Arcane strike? Id much rather wait until 2nd and take power attack thanks. We get the same thing only better with our arcane pool ability anyways.
Or you could use both Arcane Strike AND Power Attack. Free damage, yo. Unlike your arcane pool ability, arcane strike costs absolutely nothing.
Honestly, I went through all the combat feats and either I couldnt take it or none really grabbed me, thematically or practically.
Then play a race other than human. You lose one feat at first level, but you don't want that anyways, so no big loss. May I suggest half-elf or half-orc?
And yeah burning hands is weakish at lvl1, but it does something the class cant do otherwise, which is AOE damage. And it gets progressively better...as far as lvl1 purely offensive spells go, next to chill/shocking, I think they are the best.
Weak-ish? It does less damage than striking with your fists, only it grants a save for half. At first level, you're better off just ignoring AoE entirely. Save that slot for color spray or something.
This isnt a mage after all, where sleep/grease/color spray are king at lvl1. Youre going to be piling on other damage on top of your spell damage to take people down mostly.
At first level, the difference between a magus (which IS a mage, by the way) and a wizard is about +1 DC. Yay. Your color spray is otherwise every bit as good as that of a wizard.
True strike is lame. Turn what might hit anyways into a single hit? Not worth the spell slot, sorry. I really wish that spell had been an auto-threat (your roll is a 20) instead. That would be entertaining, you'd still have to roll to confirm (ie:hit) normally. But if wishes were fishes....
True strike is awesome. Your hit can be any kind of attack. If you threaten, you almost automatically confirm. Your chance of a critical hit is actually the same as through it were an auto-threat. (Well, -5% chance of rolling a '1'... basically the same.)
This is because the confirmation roll isn't a separate attack, it's a roll made at the exact same bonus as the attack.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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[amateur designer's hat on]
Re: Mage Armor
If you really want mage armor you can pick it up at 3rd level. Look at the bard. in D&D 3.0 he couldn't wear armor and got mage armor. In D&D 3.x he gets light armor but loses mage armor.
This could cause great confusion at the time of change.
In Pathfinder the bard (and now the alchemist and the summoner) all continue this pattern. I can't speak for other 3PP, but I know my arcane legionary/damascarran does. I think the magus is ‘right’ with skill points at 2+ Int, since they eventually can cast in full armor. The first 'stabacadabea' the psychic warrior also had full armor and no inertial armor.
Re: BAB
Re: Why not just play a cleric
The magus *does* have unique class abilites. The cleric and druid had their class features augmented to decrease the ‘opt into prestige classes’ mentality. No other class can throw a spell and a full attack simultaneously. (short of quicken spell). It’s a new class, so ‘optimal builds’ will take a while to develop.
Re: Arcane Bond
Re: Why don’t they have X spell?
The worry with adding spells to x character is always how unbalanced they’ll be with x character. The duskblade, beguiler, and warmage (all closed content) had these issues. Spell blending (or insightful discovery, my legionary’s equivalent) help address those shortcomings without making it rife for abuse.
[/amateur designer’s hat]
My two C-bills of course.
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Wouldn't you need to spend a little on Linguistics, just to be able to understand/be understood by people? Look at what happened to English with only a few hundred years of change...
All kidding aside, fun and creative background. The DM in me gives you + 50 XP.
-Uriel
Here is the 1st level Magus i put together for PFS. I found him fun to play.
Mithos was born tens of thousands of years ago. He lived in Koynin during the time of Earthfall. He was a Leuitenant in the guard. His squad was guarding an elf gate while civilians were evacuating. An oger mage tried to get through the elf gate. In the ensuing battle, the Oger mage used a spell to turn Mithos into stone. Then Earthfall struck. The oni was killed, and Mithos, or his petrified self and the elf gate were burrried in volcanic ash, which later turned into Bassalt, or volcanic stone. Mithos’s stone form survived some ten thousand years. The elves returned to Konynin. And eventually an elven archeological team excavated the elf gate. They also found Mithos. A wizard recognized that he was a petrified elf, and he was turned back to the flesh. He has taken a vacation from his post as a guard and joined the pathfinders, He wants to see the world as it is now.
Init +3 Perception +0
Combat:
Masterwork Bastard Sword ( Katanna)
+4 1d10 +2 19-20 x2
Dagger
+2 1d4+3 19-20 x2AC 17 ( Chain shirt 4 Dex +3)
FF 13
TCH 14Hit points: 10 (8+1 con, +1 hp favorite class)
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 16
Cha 10Saves:
FT: 3
RF: 3
WL: 2CMB: 12
CMD: 15Skills 2+int =5, Craft +7( cooking chief) , Knowledge Arcana +7,Knowledge Dungeoneering +7, Knowledge the planes +7, Spellcraft +7,
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Masterwork Bastard sword. +1 trait bonus to hit with that weapn.
Focused Mind: +2 trait bonus to concentraition checksClass abilities
Arcane Pool: =1/2 lvl +int modifier= 4= Spents 1 point to give a +1 enhancment bonus swift action on a weapon.
Spell Combat: full round action -2 attack, cast defensively.
Can give a bonus to concentraition check equal to int modifer=+3. Penalty to attack
Casting a spell Defensivly DC= 15+ double spell level. 1st level spell= 17
Concentraition check: d20+caster level+ ability...
Color spray is even BETTER for the magus then a wizard. You have spell combat at level 1...so you can color spray the lot and THEN attack the helpless fools. For a wizard, color spray is a bit dangerous actually.
Bastard sword can't be used two hand at all while doing spell combat so it's not as useful as you think. Spell combat is a full round action and your must have a hand free for the WHOLE action. I suppose you can two hand it for extra damage when your not doing spell combat...but you can do that with a longsword already anyways.
In a PFS game there is no item creation period. So no, you can't magic up a heirloom item...not that heirloom item is allowed in a PFS game anyways. Unless they changed it recently.
bastard sword is a larger heavier weapon. it will do more damage on average.
and you can spellstrike/poolstrike with the two handed weapon, you just cant spellcombat.
bonded weapon and the arcane pool weapon enhancement overlap too much.
Weapon enhancement IS bonded weapon essentially but better and you can do it with any weapon.
it also leaves open the option to have your cool bonded weapon AND a familiar.
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I haven't played around with the Magus, so forgive me if I'm missing something here, but...
Can a Magus even take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level, since his BAB is only +0?
Here is the 1st level Magus i put together for PFS. I found him fun to play.
Mithos was born tens of thousands of years ago. He lived in Koynin during the time of Earthfall. He was a Leuitenant in the guard. His squad was guarding an elf gate while civilians were evacuating. An oger mage tried to get through the elf gate. In the ensuing battle, the Oger mage used a spell to turn Mithos into stone. Then Earthfall struck. The oni was killed, and Mithos, or his petrified self and the elf gate were burrried in volcanic ash, which later turned into Bassalt, or volcanic stone. Mithos’s stone form survived some ten thousand years. The elves returned to Konynin. And eventually an elven archeological team excavated the elf gate. They also found Mithos. A wizard recognized that he was a petrified elf, and he was turned back to the flesh. He has taken a vacation from his post as a guard and joined the pathfinders, He wants to see the world as it is now.
Init +3 Perception +0
Combat:
Masterwork Bastard Sword ( Katanna)
+4 1d10 +2 19-20 x2
Dagger
+2 1d4+3 19-20 x2AC 17 ( Chain shirt 4 Dex +3)
FF 13
TCH 14Hit points: 10 (8+1 con, +1 hp favorite class)
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 12
Wis 10
Int 16
Cha 10Saves:
FT: 3
RF: 3
WL: 2CMB: 12
CMD: 15Skills 2+int =5, Craft +7( cooking chief) , Knowledge Arcana +7,Knowledge Dungeoneering +7, Knowledge the planes +7, Spellcraft +7,
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Masterwork Bastard sword. +1 trait bonus to hit with that weapn.
Focused Mind: +2 trait bonus to concentraition checksClass abilities
Arcane Pool: =1/2 lvl +int modifier= 4= Spents 1 point to give a +1 enhancment bonus swift action on a weapon.
Spell Combat: full round action -2 attack, cast defensively.
Can give a bonus to concentraition check equal to int modifer=+3. Penalty to attack
Casting a spell Defensivly DC= 15+ double spell level. 1st level spell= 17
Concentraition check: d20+caster level+ ability...
No, thats why you just put up with longsword for the first two levels and pick it up at 3rd.
1st level feat is almost always going to be combat casting for this class.
question is, since its almost an "auto feat choice" shouldnt it be a class feature like monks stunning fist?
Puffing up one feat on this class would hardly cause unbalance.
should just be a 1st level bonus feat.
problem with bastard sword is, its a really good choice for a lower level magus just for the extra damage.
I house rule that one handed weapons (like long sword) used two handed are str x 1.5 but two handed weapons (like bastard and great sword) are str x 2 (just because it gives more reason to use two hand weapons and gives the bastard sword some needed oompf)
however at higher levels of magus, you really start to question why you spent a feat on bastard sword, but it does really help out in the lower levels, especially with my house rule.
Your not always going to spell combat.
Two handed spell strike is pretty useful for a low level magus with a bastard sword.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I haven't played around with the Magus, so forgive me if I'm missing something here, but...
Can a Magus even take Exotic Weapon Proficiency at 1st level, since his BAB is only +0?
No. But this:
Traits: Heirloom Weapon: Masterwork Bastard sword. +1 trait bonus to hit with that weapn.
Gives a 'virtual proficiency' in the bastard sword, but only for the heirloom blade. He's one good shatter away from losing the blade, the trait, and the to hit bonus.
Not havign run PFS in a while, I believe it's considered 'munchkin' because so few scenarios run a chance of weapon breakage, (one so far, I think?) and you can pay gold to upgrade the weapon.
This would be a good feat in PFS, but a bad feat in say Legacy of fire.
LoF Spoilers
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm pretty sure that only gives the martial (i.e. Two-handed proficiency) you'd still get the trait bonus, but then you'd have to slap a -4 penalty for using it one handed until you got the feat.
Honestly, that's a good question. All the trait says is "You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies."
I read that as you're proficient with it in all its forms. Martial and exotic. If you're not proficient with it one handed, then you're not 'considered proficient'.
YCMV of course.
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I think either my 3.5 memory is overcoming my limited pfrpg knowledge here in relation to color spray...although granted its not one I've used alot in either game. Burning hands is going to get better though, whereas color spray is not. anh, comes down to preference I guess.
Aware of the bastard sword issues, but the point is that more often than not I expect the magus to be fighting with one weapon and not using spell combat, and bastard sword seems the best way to maximize that one weapon use while still allowing attacks with spell combat rounds.
You can upgrade MW items to magic rather than buy new in PFS games, thats what I was referring to, and adventurer's armory is legal in the current PFS doc, so maybe you are thinking of an older version?
1) By preference you mean play like a moron...then yes it's preference. Burning hands at level 1 is WORTHLESS. You have to get yourself into a dangerous position to not kill or make helpless things that wanna kill you. That is bloody moronic. Color spray at least has a pretty good chance to make things helpless. Yes burning hands does get better...but by level 5, your never gonna be using that anyways and until level 5 color spray is still useful. Hell color spray could be useful all the way now as even at high level it still gives you 1 round of stun of a failed save. That means they drop what is in their hands. That can be useful. If your want burning hands so you can make tim the evoker...well that's fine too.
2) A feat for +1 average damage ain't worth it. Arcane strike is better. It gives you up to 5 extra damage. Longsword can be used two handed when your not spell combating just fine. Now if you want it for thematic purposes...go right on ahead. I have many characters use bastard swords for such reasons...but mechanically, it's a waste of a feat.
3) Humm my PFS rule seemed to have been old...new one lets heirloom in just fine. However the rules for magic weapons isn't that you upgrade your existing one exactly...more alone the lines of you pay the difference for ease of play. I don't know what the offical ruling for heirloom weapons and upgrading it in PFS is exactly tho.
can always be upgraded to a +1 item without paying for
the masterwork cost again. Instead, you pay the difference
between the cost of the +1 item and that of the masterwork
item. This rule also applies to upgrading from a +1 item to
a +2 item and so on—you never have to repay the original
cost or sell your current item for half to upgrade to the next step.
I think either my 3.5 memory is overcoming my limited pfrpg knowledge here in relation to color spray...although granted its not one I've used alot in either game. Burning hands is going to get better though, whereas color spray is not. anh, comes down to preference I guess.
Aware of the bastard sword issues, but the point is that more often than not I expect the magus to be fighting with one weapon and not using spell combat, and bastard sword seems the best way to maximize that one weapon use while still allowing attacks with spell combat rounds.
You can upgrade MW items to magic rather than buy new in PFS games, thats what I was referring to, and adventurer's armory is legal in the current PFS doc, so maybe you are thinking of an older version?
1) By preference you mean play like a moron...then yes it's preference. Burning hands at level 1 is WORTHLESS. You have to get yourself into a dangerous position to not kill or make helpless things that wanna kill you. That is bloody moronic. Color spray at least has a pretty good chance to make things helpless. Yes burning hands does get better...but by level 5, your never gonna be using that anyways and until level 5 color spray is still useful. Hell color spray could be useful all the way now as even at high level it still gives you 1 round of stun of a failed save. That means they drop what is in their hands. That can be useful. If your want burning hands so you can make tim the evoker...well that's fine too.
2) A feat for +1 average damage ain't worth it. Arcane strike is better. It gives you up to 5 extra damage. Longsword can be used two handed when your not spell combating just fine. Now if you want it for thematic purposes...go right on ahead. I have many characters use bastard swords for such reasons...but mechanically, it's a waste of a feat.
3) Humm my PFS rule seemed to have been old...new one lets heirloom in just fine. However the rules for magic weapons isn't that you upgrade your existing one...
using a longsword two handed has always been a goofy/broken/munchkin way to belittle the bastard sword that requires a feat to use.
it's a rule loop hole, constantly throwing out there as a reason why the bastard sword proficiency is moronic is really a baseless arguement.
ELyas;
Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
I take it you missed the part where exotic weapon proficiency requires a +1BAB? You dont really need it anyways with the heirloom weapon trait, unless you want to pick up and use other bastard swords.
The final version is not published yet, so you still might see more APG spells.
One can only hope.
The Magus is intended to have attack spells, and to be somewhat short on utility and control. The designers have specifically mentioned that they don't intend to give all of the best combat buffs to the Magus.
I take it that happened on the forums here somewhere? Any link or direction to that? Because the class intro spececifcally states "learning whatever martial or arcane secrets they can find...dabble in all sorts of lore, picking up anything that might aid them....". Sounds like a very generalist approach to me, and then the abilities of the class itself push it towards using might and magic to win combat. So any magic that can aid in combat should be examined closely for inclusion, or open up the full sorceror/wizard list based on the class intro text.
1) By preference you mean play like a moron...then yes it's preference. Burning hands at level 1 is WORTHLESS. You have to get yourself into a dangerous position to not kill or make helpless things that wanna kill you. That is bloody moronic. Color spray at least has a pretty good chance to make things helpless. Yes burning hands does get better...but by level 5, your never gonna be using that anyways and until level 5 color spray is still useful.
Nice strawman argument (nice attitude too while we're at it). Color spray, on its own, at first level is definitely the better spell, no argument there. But it can only get worse, whereas burning hands gets better. Im thinking ahead here, not just one level. And both require a 'dangerous position' so that is a moot point.
And thematically I could care less, im not throwing rainbow sand in people's faces with this charater, I want AOE damage.
Im curious as to what AOE spell you will be using at 5th level instead?
Im seriouslly looking at precocious caster to boost the damage of burning hands....great little trait that immediately doubles the damage of the spell.
2) A feat for +1 average damage ain't worth it.
Cant take the feat anyways, and heirloom weapon is just better. Your point is moot.
3) Humm my PFS rule seemed to have been old...new one lets heirloom in just fine. However the rules for magic weapons isn't that you upgrade your existing one...
Seems like you do just that. No selling your old weapon. Pay the difference, your weapon is better. Sounds like an upgrade to me.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Nice strawman argument (nice attitude too while we're at it). Color spray, on its own, at first level is definitely the better spell, no argument there. But it can only get worse, whereas burning hands gets better. Im thinking ahead here, not just one level. And both require a 'dangerous position' so that is a moot point.
And thematically I could care less, im not throwing rainbow sand in people's faces with this charater, I want AOE damage.
Im curious as to what AOE spell you will be using at 5th level instead?
Im seriouslly looking at precocious caster to boost the damage of burning hands....great little trait that immediately doubles the damage of the spell.
Just curious. Thematically I see your reasoning for using burning hands (My Arc of lighting and ball spark spells aren't PFS of course, but I wrote them for a more electric themed caster), but I inferred from your post that you're worried about getting the spell. Magi are prepared casters, why not have colour spray in the book and burning hands.
(If it's because you just want direct damage, ignore me. If you're playing a 'flame mage' there's no reason to not 'fluff' the colour spray as a fan of illusionary flames.)
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1) By preference you mean play like a moron...then yes it's preference. Burning hands at level 1 is WORTHLESS. You have to get yourself into a dangerous position to not kill or make helpless things that wanna kill you. That is bloody moronic. Color spray at least has a pretty good chance to make things helpless. Yes burning hands does get better...but by level 5, your never gonna be using that anyways and until level 5 color spray is still useful.Nice strawman argument (nice attitude too while we're at it). Color spray, on its own, at first level is definitely the better spell, no argument there. But it can only get worse, whereas burning hands gets better. Im thinking ahead here, not just one level. And both require a 'dangerous position' so that is a moot point.
And thematically I could care less, im not throwing rainbow sand in people's faces with this charater, I want AOE damage.
Im curious as to what AOE spell you will be using at 5th level instead?
Im seriouslly looking at precocious caster to boost the damage of burning hands....great little trait that immediately doubles the damage of the spell.
2) A feat for +1 average damage ain't worth it.Cant take the feat anyways, and heirloom weapon is just better. Your point is moot.
3) Humm my PFS rule seemed to have been old...new one lets heirloom in just fine. However the rules for magic weapons isn't that you upgrade your existing one...Seems like you do just that. No selling your old weapon. Pay the difference, your weapon is better. Sounds like an upgrade to me.
Okay you want burning hand for thematic reasons...that's fine.
As for strawman...umm how is mechanical superiorty a straw man? Burning hands IF you role max damage and they fail their saves wont kill a goblin. Now color spray on a failed save on the goblin which happens on a 16 or less = they are out of the fight. At level 2, you need a 7 or 8 to kill a goblin on 2d4 and they fail their saves. Now by level 3, maybe burning hand can be worth it to clear some goblins...but why lug it around for 3 levels when your not a spont caster?!? You can have BOTH in your spell book and use color spray when it's useful and burning hands when that is useful...kinda the point of being a memorize caster.
As for level 5...nvm...firebreath didn't do what I thought it did. You'd have to wait for level 7 for a better AoE.
Heirloom weapon is nice IF it grants the exotic weapon prof and you can upgrade the actual weapon in PFS. Neither of which is certain...and until Joshua says firmly one way or the other, it can go either way at any table you play it. Now me personally would say that as written, hierloom does give you the exotic proficency and I see no reason why you can't upgrade the actual weapon...but there is no promise that everyone you run into in PFS play will agree with me and you on both subjects. And unless Josh says otherwise, the GM's ruling at that table stands for that table. I searched for it and couldn't find it, but if somebody knows otherwise, I'd like to know (and I'm sure talon would as well ;) ).
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using a longsword two handed has always been a goofy/broken/munchkin way to belittle the bastard sword that requires a feat to use.
it's a rule loop hole, constantly throwing out there as a reason why the bastard sword proficiency is moronic is really a baseless arguement.
Doesn't matter if you agree with the rules or not. For PFS games, it's perfectly legal. If your running a PFS game you have absolutely ZERO chance that you can rule against using a longsword two handed.
You can rule zero it away in your game all you want tho.
bonded weapon and the arcane pool weapon enhancement overlap too much.
Weapon enhancement IS bonded weapon essentially but better and you can do it with any weapon.
Im not sure I understand 'which' bonded weapon you are referring to. I'm thinking of a full bonded item like the wizard, ie: it can cast a spell for you.
That clearly doesnt overlap with the arcane pool ability.
I also like sunshadow's ideas of having a bonded weapon reduce pool costs or concentration bonuses. In fact I'd combine the two; casting while your chosen weapon is in hand is a +2 concentration modifier. This chosen weapon can become a bonded weapon ala the wizards bonded item as an arcana later, if you do not choose a familiar.
Helps address the concentration issue, adds some fluff (not just any weapon will do) and leads to an arcana choice later if the player chooses.
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Napalm, I get it. Color spray is superior against CR1 threats at lvl1. But at the same time, burning hands is the only AOE direct damage spell we have, and gets better over time. And it affects undead, whereas colorspray, near as I can tell, will not.
I want AOE damage. My choice is basically made for me. Its a shame they didn't overhaul the system more and balance things like this. A simple addition to damage equal to your int mod would make the spell knock out cr1 threats more than likely.
Color spray may be too good...but for the casting in a threatened zone catch22.
bonded weapon and the arcane pool weapon enhancement overlap too much.
Weapon enhancement IS bonded weapon essentially but better and you can do it with any weapon.
Im not sure I understand 'which' bonded weapon you are referring to. I'm thinking of a full bonded item like the wizard, ie: it can cast a spell for you.
That clearly doesnt overlap with the arcane pool ability.
I also like sunshadow's ideas of having a bonded weapon reduce pool costs or concentration bonuses. In fact I'd combine the two; casting while your chosen weapon is in hand is a +2 concentration modifier. This chosen weapon can become a bonded weapon ala the wizards bonded item as an arcana later, if you do not choose a familiar.
Helps address the concentration issue, adds some fluff (not just any weapon will do) and leads to an arcana choice later if the player chooses.
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Napalm, I get it. Color spray is superior against CR1 threats at lvl1. But at the same time, burning hands is the only AOE direct damage spell we have, and gets better over time. And it affects undead, whereas colorspray, near as I can tell, will not.
I want AOE damage. My choice is basically made for me. Its a shame they didn't overhaul the system more and balance things like this. A simple addition to damage equal to your int mod would make the spell knock out cr1 threats more than likely.
Color spray may be too good...but for the casting in a threatened zone catch22.
bonded weapon isnt simply just spell storage.
you can get it enchanted as if you had feats to do so, but only in your hands, very similar and overlapping with arcane pool weapon enhancement, and with other magus abilities he can already do the "cast any spell on the magus list", another way. So, bonded weapon overlaps the magus.
And if he has those item creation feats, he can make those items anyways......your point?
It might come down to simply too much work for too little reward though, given what else is being worked into the class.
Although I for one, do not think the magus should have item creation feats.
The first version of the magus had a bond, it was weapon bond only, this was dropped I presume because the arcane pool is far more versatile and cooler. Familiar was also a magus arcana choice. There is a pretty high chance imho that there will be a smattering of new spells for the magus in Ultimate Magic, I'm hoping for a few more touch spells, hopefully something to round out the magus' touch spell element type.
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Uriel393, Thank you.
Perhaps he does need some ranks in linguistics. I assumed he got Elvish and common for “free”. For his “extra languages” I picked "ancient" Thassilonian, "ancient" Azlanti, and Ancient Osirion.
Strictly speaking, I suppose the Rule book, might restrict my elvish character’s choice of languages to languages like Sylvan but I liked the idea of someone who spoke those ancient languages, not because he was a scholar of those ancient languages, but because those were the languages spoken during his time.
One other “fluff” idea I was tossing around, Uriel393, was that this character when petrified during Earth fall, was a 12 level Magus. But over 10,000 years he has forgotten his skill in martial combat (swords etc) and his skill at the arcane arts (magic etc) essentially he has atrophied from a 12 level character to a 1st level character.
As he adventures, engages in combat, he remembers his sword “forms”, and as he studies his spell book, he unlocks the magic he once knew.
Functionally in terms of game mechanics, he is simply accumulating experience and class levels.
I stole the name Mithos from the “Highlander TV series”. I got the idea of the petrified statue surviving from Herculaneum and Pompeii.
Mathew Morris, perhaps the Trait: Heirloom Weapon is a bit “munchkin”. My fluff idea for this particular “Heirloom weapon” was that it was a mark of office, that one earned, and the blade was passed down through the Kyonin Guard, from one Guardsman to another not something handed down through a family blood line. In "Robert Jordan, "wheel of time" terms, perhaps it might be like a "heron marked blade".
Heymitch and Talonz51, I am not sure if you need a +1 base attack bonus in order to take the exotic weapon proficiency. I will have to go and look that one up in the rule book to confirm your suspicions.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Mathew Morris, perhaps the Trait: Heirloom Weapon is a bit “munchkin”. My fluff idea for this particular “Heirloom weapon” was that it was a mark of office, that one earned, and the blade was passed down through the Kyonin Guard, from one Guardsman to another not something handed down through a family blood line. In "Robert Jordan, "wheel of time" terms, perhaps it might be like a "heron marked blade".
Just want to make clear, I wasn't calling you a Munchkin, just explaining the reasoning of people who disapprove of how it interacts with PFS.
Tangentally, my Iconic arcane legionary (hope to get build 3 of the class up tonight) really *should* have the trait, but not the sword with his backstory.
The trait is unusual in that, where most traits are situationally useful, Heirloom is either extremely useful (free MW weapon, free virtual proficiency, free virtual weapon focus) or useless (weapon gets lost.)
I do like the background on your character. Have you seen the Avengers cartoon? Or are you reading the 'Man out of Time' miniseries for Captain America? Both of them are doing a bit of culture shock for Cap very well.
Best bit so far (to me)
Cap: We wouldn't call anything that flew this high, an airplane.
Iron Man: What would you call it?
Cap: Science Fiction.
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Uriel393, Thank you.
One other “fluff” idea I was tossing around, Uriel393, was that this character when petrified during Earth fall, was a 12 level Magus. But over 10,000 years he has forgotten his skill in martial combat (swords etc) and his skill at the arcane arts (magic etc) essentially he has atrophied from a 12 level character to a 1st level character.
As he adventures, engages in combat, he remembers his sword “forms”, and as he studies his spell book, he unlocks the magic he once knew.
Functionally in terms of game mechanics, he is simply accumulating experience and class levels.
Kingmaker Spoiler
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Heymich, Talonz51, you are both correct, I read the Pathfinder Core Rule Book, and you do indeed need a +1 base attack bonus in order to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.
It looks like my character will be purchasing a long sword so he can use his spell combat.
Mathew Morris, Oh don’t worry, it takes allot to offend me.
Now I suppose I am being hypocritical, because I am making use of the trait for my PFS character, but I would be very hesitant to allow that particular trait in a home game of mine. I would only let that trait in with a good back-story.
Thank you for your kind words about my back-story. It give me a chance to brush of my these thous and thines.
.While there are many things I like about PFS, sadly, there is no possible way to weave a character’s back-story into the plot of a PFS game like you would be able to with a home game.
I haven’t seen the Avenger’s cartoon, nor am I reading “man out of time”. Your quote was very amusing.
I am actually just starting a book called “the Black Company”
Uriel393, while I am not sure where I got the idea, of survival by petrification. I suspect I got the idea from Herculaneum and Pompeii, but I think you hit the nail on the head. That must be where I got the idea of my character “atrophying” over the millennia.
thanks
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Heymich, Talonz51, you are both correct, I read the Pathfinder Core Rule Book, and you do indeed need a +1 base attack bonus in order to take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat.
It looks like my character will be purchasing a longsword so he can use his spell combat.
Just take the Ancestral Arms alternate race feature, and choose Bastard Sword. Easy.
Just take the Ancestral Arms alternate race feature, and choose Bastard Sword. Easy.That would also require him to change his race to half-elf, however. He had been playing an elf, I thought.
Where is that trait?