Me too.
Make a post in this thread and the judges will get to it as best they can.
Edit: It's currently locked, but please give it a few days before asking about your particular items.
The first 24 hours are for the winners to enjoy their victory. There's already stickied a 'feedback' post for those of us who didn't win. Tomorrow it will be unlocked and you can post your item in it for the judges to do feedback on it. For today, congratulate the winners, and let them enjoy their victory. :3
Is there anyway we can view the comments on our items. I actually thought I had a really good one and would REALLLLY like to know what I need to work on to make it better for next year.
Maybe your entry was much less good than those that made it, but you have to realize also that there is a degree of arbitrariness, perhaps even luck. In past years they have said they got down to about 100 entries and then started making really hard choices. So, even many that are extremely good get dumped.
I'd just like to see what the judges already said about the item I submitted, not have them waste their time with another set of posts. Bundle it all up in plain text and email it to me or something.
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Maybe your entry was much less good than those that made it, but you have to realize also that there is a degree of arbitrariness, perhaps even luck. In past years they have said they got down to about 100 entries and then started making really hard choices. So, even many that are extremely good get dumped.
This^
Can you honestly look at any of the top 32 and say they haven't deserved it?
I will say that reading the judges comments on the top 32 and seeing that some of them initially beat up or even voted to reject a few of them (and to be clear, I have nothing bad to say about any of them nor am I attempting to imply anything about said items by mentioning this) makes me morbidly curious about what the threads for the items they didn't like look like.
(Understanding that it's the judges' job to be critical and initially probe for flaws even in great entries.)
I will say that reading the judges comments on the top 32 and seeing that some of them initially beat up or even voted to reject a few of them (and to be clear, I have nothing bad to say about any of them nor am I attempting to imply anything about said items by mentioning this) makes me morbidly curious about what the threads for the items they didn't like look like.
(Understanding that it's the judges' job to be critical and initially probe for flaws even in great entries.)
I concur.
Yeah, I'm not sure why this process can't be simplified by just having an "opt in" where we could choose whether we wanted to receive the judges' feedback on our items or not. We understand that the judging is harsh and this can be emphasized by having a disclaimer with the opt in. It could even be made easier by emailing us the feedback rather than making us repost our items in a new thread where the feedback will be public.
Yeah, I'm not sure why this process can't be simplified by just having an "opt in" where we could choose whether we wanted to receive the judges' feedback on our items or not. We understand that the judging is harsh and this can be emphasized by having a disclaimer with the opt in. It could even be made easier by emailing us the feedback rather than making us repost our items in a new thread where the feedback will be public.
For what it's worth, somewhere in the last month or so of threads in the RPGSS forum, some of the judges comment about why they wouldn't want this.
Although I totally empathize with you, their reasons make sense to me.
Senior Software Developer
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See this post by Clark regarding why we don't do the checkbox-to-see-feedback thing. And the rest of that thread for more details about this issue.
Eh, it seems easier to edit out some comments from a few hundred posts than have to repost a few hundred posts. You're the ones who have to spend time doing either one, so obviously I defer to your judgement.
First all, grats to all the winners.
My first thoughts upon looking through the winner's items was why did mine not qualify? But, as I read through the judge's posts, I started to see things that made me go, "Oh, I see."
It looks like items that used alcohol in their descriptions didn't last long. Hey, mine needed alcohol to activate.
It looks like item's whose titles were an alliteration didn't last long. Hey, my item's title was an alliteration.
So, I'm getting my feedback early by reading the comments.
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Personally, I'm amazed at the number of the top 32 that violated the auto-reject threads or were initially voted to reject, as well as those that I've seen in the past years under differant names.
Regardless though, I will keep my item. I know that other's have liked it and I hope that it is only a mechanical issue with it that needs to be fixed so it will be more functional. I've not un-vieled it to my gaming groups yet, so I've still plenty of time to make changes to it.
Eh, it seems easier to edit out some comments from a few hundred posts than have to repost a few hundred posts. You're the ones who have to spend time doing either one, so obviously I defer to your judgement.
You are assuming that we'll have more than 100 people asking for feedback on their item.
In terms of work,
Reposting comments on 100 items < editing comments out of hundreds of items.
Personally, I'm amazed at the number of the top 32 that violated the auto-reject threads or were initially voted to reject, as well as those that I've seen in the past years under differant names.
See auto-reject advice #27.
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Personally, I'm amazed at the number of the top 32 that violated the auto-reject threads or were initially voted to reject, as well as those that I've seen in the past years under differant names.See auto-reject advice #27.
I have. I read them all word for word. However, this still doesn't change what I have said above. This is not meant to be an attack on you, the other judges or any of the contestants. It was a simple statemnet to express my opinion.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8
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Is there anyway we can view the comments on our items. I actually thought I had a really good one and would REALLLLY like to know what I need to work on to make it better for next year.Maybe your entry was much less good than those that made it, but you have to realize also that there is a degree of arbitrariness, perhaps even luck. In past years they have said they got down to about 100 entries and then started making really hard choices. So, even many that are extremely good get dumped.
Absolutely this. You didn't lose. You just didn't make the cut this year. Ask the judges for their feedback, think about it long and hard and re-enter next year, wiser and better and ready to be selected. I can guarantee you that the discussions in the judges' threads came down to a lot of back and forth, and you may very well have been the 35th out of 34. There shouldn't be any sense of loss in that.
I have. I read them all word for word. However, this still doesn't change what I have said above. This is not meant to be an attack on you, the other judges or any of the contestants. It was a simple statemnet to express my opinion.Personally, I'm amazed at the number of the top 32 that violated the auto-reject threads or were initially voted to reject, as well as those that I've seen in the past years under differant names.See auto-reject advice #27.
I agree. I was surprised as well. I had gotten the impression that the judging was going to be much stricter.
However, judges are people too. If you can present them with something they think is cool then they will overlook deficiencies in the entry.
We haven't quite gotten there yet, but this thread is getting dangerously close to sour grapes. Let today be for the winners. Congratulate them.
Tomorrow and then after, which you already know if you've seen prior years, endless effort will be spent helping and offering feedback and constructive criticism to those who didnt make the cut.
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I'm pretty sure I lost because there is some evil conspiracy out to destroy me, and it's completely centered around Gary Teter. Though he's a nice guy, the circle of evil that surrounds him (namely his "Hawtness") has become fully sentient and has decided to destroy me personally.
*wears tinfoil hat*
I agree. I was surprised as well. I had gotten the impression that the judging was going to be much stricter.
However, judges are people too. If you can present them with something they think is cool then they will overlook deficiencies in the entry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think we have consistently stated that there has never been a flawless entry (or if so, too few to mention).
And, candidly, not to crush any egos here, but if you were rejected by Sean, Ryan and Neil than your item wasn't as good as you thought it was. So be open to understanding that. Believe me, the problem isn't the judging or their experience. On the flip side, to keep hopes and dreams alive, maybe you got sorted into the keep pile and for some more subjective reason your item lost to an item deemed better. So maybe you got close. But believe me that each year there are only a handful that wow all of us judges. So clearly you failed to do that.
The advice threads are just that--advice to help you make better items and things that we seemed to consistently see over and over again in items that failed to make the cut.
Each year at least 1/2 of the top 32 had at least one judge vote to reject. We rarely had more than 15 that were consensus top 32 items. We are a tough group, and pleasing all of us (though I can't speak for this year) has historically been pretty difficult. So dont be too surprised to see a vote to reject. Plus, there was an extra judge this year--Ryan, Sean, Neil and Mark. In the past we only had 3. So that's one more potential vote to reject. In the past, a majority vote to keep got the item moved to the keep file.
I agree. I was surprised as well. I had gotten the impression that the judging was going to be much stricter.
However, judges are people too. If you can present them with something they think is cool then they will overlook deficiencies in the entry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think we have consistently stated that there has never been a flawless entry (or if so, too few to mention).
And, candidly, not to crush any egos here, but if you were rejected by Sean, Ryan and Neil than your item wasn't as good as you thought it was. So be open to understanding that. Believe me, the problem isn't the judging or their experience. On the flip side, to keep hopes and dreams alive, maybe you got sorted into the keep pile and for some more subjective reason your item lost to an item deemed better. So maybe you got close. But believe me that each year there are only a handful that wow all of us judges. So clearly you failed to do that.
The advice threads are just that--advice to help you make better items and things that we seemed to consistently see over and over again in items that failed to make the cut.
Each year at least 1/2 of the top 32 had at least one judge vote to reject. We rarely had more than 15 that were consensus top 32 items. We are a tough group, and pleasing all of us (though I can't speak for this year) has historically been pretty difficult. So dont be too surprised to see a vote to reject. Plus, there was an extra judge this year--Ryan, Sean, Neil and Mark. In the past we only had 3. So that's one more potential vote to reject. In the past, a majority vote to keep got the item moved to the keep file.
Sean Reynolds specifically pointed to auto-reject advice 27, which when I read it, I interpret it to mean that cool items will have some of their deficiencies ignored.
I'm pretty sure I lost because there is some evil conspiracy out to destroy me, and it's completely centered around Gary Teter. Though he's a nice guy, the circle of evil that surrounds him (namely his "Hawtness") has become fully sentient and has decided to destroy me personally.
*wears tinfoil hat*
I think it is a more general conspiracy against FAWTL, but Gary is still the cause. ;)
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We haven't quite gotten there yet, but this thread is getting dangerously close to sour grapes. Let today be for the winners. Congratulate them.
Tomorrow and then after, which you already know if you've seen prior years, endless effort will be spent helping and offering feedback and constructive criticism to those who didnt make the cut.
I here-by apologize if my grapes seemed either sour or wrath filled. So here I will officially say congratulations to the winners this year and I hope you come up with several great things in the upcoming contest that I can hi-jack for my own personal use. Good luck, god speed and may your muse find you open and receptive.
You didn't lose. You just didn't make the cut this year. Ask the judges for their feedback, think about it long and hard and re-enter next year, wiser and better and ready to be selected. I can guarantee you that the discussions in the judges' threads came down to a lot of back and forth, and you may very well have been the 35th out of 34. There shouldn't be any sense of loss in that.
Well said, James.
He's right - just by taking the initiative and submitting, and then by becoming engaged in the process, you're learning a great deal.
Sean Reynolds specifically pointed to auto-reject advice 27, which when I read it, I interpret it to mean that cool items will have some of their deficiencies ignored.
As always, Sean is right. And I think his position summarizes the historical view of the judges and the historical quality of the entries. Just remember that we have historically rejected plenty of cool items that had such flaws that simply couldnt be overcome by coolness. So even coolness has its limits. You still have to design a good item.
Its a good discussion to have.
It's a good discussion to have.
Agreed. Because "mechanically-sound, but boring, ill-conceived, and poorly-presented" is a quicker way to fall by the wayside than "cool idea, but has some mechanical and presentation flaws." And an item that scores high in all those areas quickly makes the Keep pile and has a very good shot at a lock on the Top 32. All of these things build off one another. But, a good core idea is the foundation. After that, you need to write well. And after that, the mechanics need to be as tight as you can make them.
That's because you can always educate someone better on the rules. It's a lot harder to teach them how to write. And nearly impossible to infuse someone with creativity. Thus, the judges are typically looking for potential in a designer that shows they've cultivated the latter two things with an eye towards hoping they improve their mechanical deficiencies over the course of the competition and their future assignments following a developer's feedback. But even then, that's not to say all mechanical problems get overlooked. A serious foul can kill an item submission just as easily as anything else.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
My heartiest congratulations to the top 32. Well done and Well met! I will be asking for the advice as I fully intend to win this at a future time. Be forewarned dragons are careful planners
Bruce Boughner
Smaugdragon, former co-host of Mortality Radio and author of Arrows of Aristemis
Without over-anlaysing the judges' comments from this year, I was certainly struck by an ongoing theme of (and I paraphrase) "there are some problems with spelling/formatting/requirements/mechanics/pricing in this entry, but I vote keep because the idea is interesting."
That is not something I have been struck by in reading past years' comments.
My personal take-away so far (without seeing the feedback on my individual item) has been:
- submit my item earlier next year to get the judges while they're fresh; if the idea is good enough they'll keep it until they get to the business end of the whittling-down;
- a truly innovative and interesting idea trumps minor errors in spelling, formatting, following the template and other such items that I was viewing as an autofail if I screwed them up; and
- I need to be more creative in thinking about how my item presents itself, or in other words the package is just as important as the contents.
A second observation I've made of the judges' comments is a less obvious but still to my mind present theme of "this item needs to state what it does upfront".
Of course, we've only seen the judges' comments on the Top 32, so we can't really know why we lost precisely...we can only know why we didn't win. And yes, I think there is a difference! : )
I've already started on next year.
Amen to that!
Plus there's always the Open Call for Pathfinder Society Scenarios. : )
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Ah well, first time entrant and it's a swing and a miss...
I'm not too cut up about it though. I had begun to suspect that my entry was just a little too woolly and unfocussed. Hey ho, such is life...
Never mind, I will post for feedback and create something special for next year.
Onwards and upwards!
[deranged conspiracy troll post]
You lost because you weren't one of the judges' favourite 36 items this year, pure and simple.
The only important guideline, #27, they gave, they tricked you by putting it in last place.
If the judges weren't out to get people who don't know their secret illuminati handshake, they would have put that guideline first and foremost, saying 'this is the important one, everything which comes first is subsidiary to it'. But they didn't, which proves that they are unscrupulous b@$t@rd$, out to top everyone that didn't pay $$$$ to their secret slush fund to get a nod and a wink to how to enter. Furthermore, if you analyse the last letters of each sentence of twenty-six of the judges' favourite 36 entries you will find that they conform to a series of templates laid out in a secret document issued to those prepared to pay $$$$$$$ for the privilege of 'special consideration'. This was a clever means of the judges being able to pretend that entries were anonymous to the Cathargian magi looking over their shoulders all the time, whilst in fact still being able to discover who had paid the extra bribes to make sure that they got their items in.
Nine of the other items got into the top thirty six, because there weren't nine more people prepared to pay $$$$$$$ to be guaranteed a favourite thirty six ranking.
The tenth other item isn't a real item at all. It's a coded message from Clinton Boomer's little sister who works at the Coliseum Morpheuon to Osama bin Laden who is in fact a CIA agent working for an ex-communist mad albino monk in the employ of an ostensibly Christian Organisation that wants to preserve the bloodline of the last of the Greek gods from being captured by fungi from the planet Yuggoth. The mi-go appear to be in league with the daleks from Skaro, in the last time-war against Elvis and Lord Lucan, but the daleks are planning to double-cross the mi-go and sell out to Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, whilst the mi-go are in fact planning to overthrow Cthulhu in favour of liberating his daughter via an escape hatch in the Bermuda triangle and are using the daleks as expendable patsies to distract the Vogons. What neither the mi-go nor the daleks realise is that their strings are being pulled by a pair of cross-trading Arcanaloths based in the City of Doors for whom this is in fact merely the latest skirmish in an aeons old rivalry.
Meanwhile, the last descendant of Athena has joined a coven of witches that secretly run congress in the mistaken belief that her powers are of supernatural, not divine origin. The witches are in league with an organization of arms-companies, headed by Veddic, who are selling weapons to both sides in what they expect to be the forthcoming mi-go dalek conflict. The arms companies think that Veddic is in it purely for the money, not realising that Veddic is in fact using the layers of intrigue to distract the Decemvirate so that they don't interfere with his next shipment of sun-orchid elixir from Thuvia. Of course Veddic doesn't know that his organization has been thoroughly infiltrated by agents of Mengkare, who intend to escalate the mi-go dalek conflict when it breaks out to act as a distraction so that they can snatch Athena's last descendant and take her to Hermea for their master's personal attention in his breeding program. Mengkare needs Athena's last descendant because his conflict with Captain Olaf is intensifying, as the goldfish has discovered an organization of Chinese dragons disguised as goldfish to hide from a megalomaniacal media tycoon who are prepared to assist him in his struggle on general principle.
And what almost nobody else has realised is that James Bond arrived in the middle of Andoran last week in pursuit of a villain with a sinister cat, and bugged a meeting between agents of Razmir and a Druman merchant to fix a racing event in Qadira. James Bond has been adapting to the local circumstances with his usual speed and aplomb, and has already blown up three depots of alchemical hardware scheduled for delivery to various rebel groups in Galt, Cheliax, and Lastwall, and has captured an experimental flying carpet with twin staves of power and ring of featherfall mounted with which he intends to launch a raid on Katapesh with the assistance of a succubus he has seduced and redeemed. The contents of the three arms depots and the carpet were of course being shipped by Veddic, and the Druman and Razmiran delegation are unhappy with the loss of their gear and are planning to ask Veddic for a refund, threatening to destabilise Veddic's schemes.
And meanwhile, somewhere in a crystal castle of unmistakeably Thassilonian architecture on an island bordering the Varisian Gulf, a group of women are meeting for tea and scones and laughing...
Sorry. If Clinton Boomer's little sister hadn't really needed to send that coded message, your item might have made it into thirty sixth place in the judges' lists of favourites, but given the intergalactic situation, they simply couldn't afford to make any token gestures this year by letting in someone who hadn't paid bribes up front...
Oh, PS. JFK did organise the assassination of Abraham Lincoln from the deck of the Marie Celeste, which is why a Men in Black agent with a remote teleportation device faked JFK's own 'assassination' with the assistance of a cloned body double and a Classy Gnoll. That was incidental to the time-wars though, and Rassilon was behind it. Rassilon is in fact abroad on Earth today, disguised as Timothy Dalton, and is Mark Moreland's true paymaster - hence the whole Paizo wikipedia trouble which went on a few months ago. But since Rassilon is on an FBI watch-list he keeps his head down in this decade, and didn't really influence the success or failure of your item at all.
[/deranged conspiracy troll post]
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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First off, congratulations to the winners.
Personally, I'm amazed at the number of the top 32 that violated the auto-reject threads
I think rule #27 is key and skirting close or being over the line is part of being a superstar. It's like a figure skater shooting for that extra rotation or that kicker who makes a touchdown saving tackle on a spectacular return. Sometimes you're going to fail spectacularly. Other times you're going to soar. And even in failure, very often you will be respected for the attempt even if a more timid soul technically scored better then you.
I failed to make the 32. But I know I took some risks, made some rookie mistakes. I hope I made an impression. I hope I was memorable, perhaps, when I put down a design proposal for the PF Society, it will be read with more attention.
What I will do now is some self analysis of my item before I turn it in for a judges critique. That way I'm more likely to get some good analysis. I will also include that same analysis when putting it in the auto reject pile.
One thing I will do is a self analysis of my item before I turn it in for a judges critique. That way I'm more likely to get some good analysis. I will also include that when putting it in the auto reject pile.
I'm debating on that myself. I tried to do something I think is pretty unusual. I'm wondering what I need more - a sense of how the judges responded to my items as-is, or a judge's opinion of how my item measured up to my intentions.
...I'm wondering what I need more - a sense of how the judges responded to my items as-is, or a judge's opinion of how my item measured up to my intentions.
We're really only going to be able to give you the former. That's because all we have to go on is what you wrote, not what you intended. And that's why we always say we're judging your item and not you, the designer. And, honestly, that's the way it will always be for potential freelancers. You have no control over how others interpret your designs. That's why you have to be as clear as possible in your writing and your mechanics. If you confuse people, that's ultimately on you...because it's your words that took them there.
I think that's one of the earliest lessons you have to embrace before accepting constructive criticism. A lot of people try to come back and justify their designs by including additional thoughts...or even counterpoints to what the judges' feedback may be. None of that really matters to anyone but yourself. You have to assess how your intentions match up how your design was received. And, all anyone can really tell you is how they received it. When someone ultimately buys your product online or in a game store, they'll let you know how they received it with their next purchase decision regarding anything else that you write. And, you don't get to stand there next to them at the bookshelves or the display to explain your intentions or clarify anything. Your work has to stand on its own. That's why it takes hard work. You can't just slap stuff together and then come back to clarify after the fact. You build all that in now. And then you hope your vision inspires people and they "get" what you were trying to do.
--Neil
To paraphrase the Wizard of Menlo Park...
"I didn't lose RPG Superstar 2011, I have learned 3 separate ways NOT to design a Wondrous Item."
~Dean
Thanks, Neil, but possibly I wasn't being clear (ummm, as befits the topic...).
What you're talking about is exactly what I'm talking about; exactly the type of feedback I'd like get. Because you can't control how somebody receives your design, but you can ask them afterwards: "I was hoping you'd receive XYZ out of this, did I manage to do that?".
I'm not trying to add XYZ in retroactively, or to argue that XYZ "should" have been received. I'm trying to get a measure of whether my efforts to convey XYZ were successful, or not - which may, of course, be entirely orthogonal to whether judges (and others) like the item or not - and focusing the feedback over that particular point will, I think, be helpful next time I try writing something attempting to convey XYZ (or even entirely different sets of capitalized letters!).
What you're talking about is exactly what I'm talking about; exactly the type of feedback I'd like get.
I know. But what I'm trying to say (and being equally unclear about it, I guess) is that I'm not sure we're going to have much time to interact with you. If everyone posts and puts forward what their intentions were, it's going to magnify the effort the judges will have to go through to give you individual feedback after reading through all your explanation of the approach you used, etc. I'm not sure what Sean has in mind yet. But, I assumed he'd be copying/pasting comments from the judges' forum (as cleaned up as possible) to give you insight into how it was received.
I'm not sure any of us will have time to go through a miniature discussion on every individual item with designers about what they intended and why we didn't receive it that way. Hence, my point was that I really think we're mostly just going to be able to tell you how we received it. And, from there, you've got to figure out why it was received differently than you intended. That's a self-learning process every writer has to go through.
But that's just my two cents,
--Neil
P.S. Maybe I'm entirely wrong and Sean does intend to engage everyone on that kind of back-and-forth. But that's not the impression I got from him.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm pretty sure I lost because there is some evil conspiracy out to destroy me, and it's completely centered around Gary Teter. Though he's a nice guy, the circle of evil that surrounds him (namely his "Hawtness") has become fully sentient and has decided to destroy me personally.
*wears tinfoil hat*
To be fair, Gary does have a 23 part manifesto titled "On hatred and wrath: My Quest to Destroy Studpuffin."
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Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 9
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What you're talking about is exactly what I'm talking about; exactly the type of feedback I'd like get.I know. But what I'm trying to say (and being equally unclear about it, I guess) is that I'm not sure we're going to have much time to interact with you.
Sounds like we should set up our own feedback thread for more in depth analysis. I think I'm going to join a design group or set one up online to hone my skills.
I'm pretty sure I lost because there is some evil conspiracy out to destroy me, and it's completely centered around Gary Teter. Though he's a nice guy, the circle of evil that surrounds him (namely his "Hawtness") has become fully sentient and has decided to destroy me personally.
*wears tinfoil hat*
To be fair, Gary does have a 23 part manifesto titled "On hatred and wrath: My Quest to Destroy Studpuffin."
That could be an interesting read.:)
Sounds like we should set up our own feedback thread for more in depth analysis. I think I'm going to join a design group or set one up online to hone my skills.
Azmahel did pretty much exactly that last year with a "Design a wondrous item every month" kind of thing. Also, even though the judges may not be able to go back and forth with you in discussing every little nuance of your item and decision process, there will be plenty of folks from the online community who will no doubt dive right in and take up that task. It happens every year.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Dedicated Voter Season 6
aka Eyebite
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FWIW guys, you didn't lose anything. Hopefully, you enjoyed the experience, will still enjoy the competition itself, and learned something from it (or will, based upon the feedback threads that will crop up here pretty soon).
Take it from me - try to learn how you can improve, and try again next year.
This was my fourth time entering this contest. I never placed in the previous three years, but I learned something each time.
Keep trying, keep submitting, and it might happen for you too.
And, if you truly enjoyed the creation process, why not try your hand at submitting to Kobold Quarterly, or join an Open Design patron project, and stretch your freelancer muscles a bit?
Simply because you didn't make the Top 32 this year does not in any way reflect upon your creativity, or your potential for writing in this industry.
Just keep at it.