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Let me say up front that I'm not too fond of this class; I want to like it, I really do, but I can't. I believe I mentioned a few reason in my Mad Scientist/Evil Genius thread, but I'll go over it again:
A) The class is just another flavor of magic. When the playtests first began, I had hopes that it would be focused on the craft (alchemy) skill. Instead, it's just a mage who casts through potions. All of its infusions are spells. Its bombs are just weak fireballs.
B) The class is selfish. While it is possible to "share the wealth," so to speak, it eats up resources to do so. You have to waste one of your discoveries in order for anyone else to benefit from your infusions. Your bombs, strangely, don't function unless you throw them.
C) There don't seem to be too many ways to play it; you throw bombs and turn into a hulking monster. That's it. Every alchemist does just these things. So in effect, every alchemist is the same.
The last complaint is more than likely due to my own lack of imagination. I can't seem to find much in the way of individuality in the class; an alchemist from one town is pretty much the same as one from a different town. Or country.
What I'm really looking for is another perspective of this class. Are my opinions unfounded? Has anyone played the class? And if so, what was it like? Too strong or weak? How would you go about making your alchemist unique?
I really like how the alchemist turned out.
A) Yes it is true, but if it would focus more on craft, it would worsen your point B) a lot. Magic is uses per day, and craft is uses per gold. He has "spells" that noone else has. And the bombs are a bit more physical than fireballs, and have a lower blast radius. They are more like better alchemists fire (which he can craft).
B) Supposing he gets an even share of resources, he can do a little more alchemy with it than others. It's okay for the rest of the party to use him to get better results, so he can help the party to get more for their money.
I agree that you have to take a discovery to help others, that might be a discovery tax. However you can be a useful party member without it, so you don't have to use it.
C) Yes, you might lack the imagination part a bit. Just as any class, there are multiple ways. You can play a sneaky alchemist that uses poisonous daggers, or the mad bomber. I agree that your damage potential is a bit limited, but your rogue is more or less a dagger wielder (or sniper).
You have a lot of self-buffs, that lets you go in other direction like sneaking, melee-ing (more for the prestige class) and some fluff.
But perhaps the class just isn't for you, so I hope your GM can surprise you every once and then with a surprising alchemist. Just enjoy the other classes you have.
Edit: with damage potential I meant ways of dealing damage in a fight, the damage you can do with a lot of bombs is huge, however you might run out of bombs fast this way. But to kill a villain in a few rounds might be worth that.
Playing one right now and its lots of fun.
wasen't sure how to address your question you seem to hate on the old alchy from multiple angles but here goes
**EDIT
I had this part last but I think it actually the best answer to your question
On making a unique class, uniqueness doesn't come from the mechanics it comes from how you interpret them into a character. TO give you an example my alchemist is the first follower of a new demigod called Triumvirate (a demigod that was born from a previous homebrew campagin) with an affinity for crystals my ferral mutgaen make my hands grow crystals instead of claws and my skin becomes studded with crystals as the mutgaen improves so will the overtness of the crystal growth. Maxed out the mutation will look like a behemoth of living crystal
When I multiclass into Master Chymist and get an alter ego my alter ego will call itself The Avatar of Triumverate and believe its the physical embodiment of this new demigod and when in control will have goals of gathering followers to worship the new demigod which is not a prime concern of the normal ego.
and thus bland mechanics become interesting (well interesting to me and my GM anyway) my GM is particularly looking forward to messing with my normal and alter ego and will try find a way of putting them at odds not doubt hehehe should be great.
***END EDIT
let me just say when making an alchemist the hardest part was deciding which way to play I I came across so many cool ideas I was almost not going to play it becuase I couldn't decide which way I wanted to play it hehehe
A) class is another flavor or magic ... So ? focus on craft alchemy , have you not read the new rules on alchemical power, those alchemical items you can make can be used to juice up your extracts and spells if there also a arcane/divine caster in the group. Did I mention to get the mage to target you with the fireball to charge up your dragonic reservoir so you can keep pouring on the flame hurt after the fireball has done the initial job ;)
Not to mention brewing cheap potions for yourself and the rest of the group greatly expands you versatility.
If I can segway into my charcater for a moment I acutally doll out extracts like enlarge person and truestrike, shield to the frontliners in my group, yes thats right TRUESTRIKE and SHIELD for fighters , they really like that one dunno why ;)
But its more than that your extracts function at your level and you'll notice not all extracts on your list can be made into potions, however your allies can gain the benefits if they use the extracts
The discoveries that let potion function at your caster level and increase it duration, couple that with alchemical allocation mean I can drink 3rd level potions and have them use up a 2nd level extract slot, they don't get consumed and they function at my caster level and last twice as long.
Even better if I find a potion above my caster level I can use it at the higher level over and over again without consuming it
as for bombs have you read the bombs list ? how bout fast bombs + dispelling attack to get 3 dispel attempts on a target where a mage has one or two with a quicken. Stun bombs, trip bombs
and did you not see the poison bomb, notice how you become immune to poison ;) kinda handy fighting inside a cloud of death where your enemies take CON dmg while you beat on them.
B) Selfish class, as already described above I hardly use any extracts on myself alchemist is pretty solid with just a mutagen and maybe some enlarge, hand out some and keep a few slot free to make extracts on the fly it only take 60 seconds to brew an extract.
the class is only selfish if you play it that way, if you want to buff yourself to insanity then sure your short on extracts but with a combination of using potions alchemical allocation and giving extracts to allies there's enough love to go round.
you want bombs to function for others ? why not give them a fire breath extarct ? or give them a dragon breath extract ?
yeah thats right you can give multiple people in your group dragon breath weapons and thus fire off multiple dragon breath attacks in a single round from multiple directions if the situation calls for it.
C) honestly how may different options do you need ?
Ranged bomber
Melee Beast
Extract Support
Poison Use
Craft Potion Monkey
Skill Monkey (high INT = lotsa skills and you get a decent list)
Show me a class that can lob a ranged AOE attack with secondary effect or AOE gas cloud run into it immune from its effects attack with 3 primary attacks at FULL BAB with a massive STR bonus and have his party comment on how nice it is to have access to personal spells normally wasted on a mage.
(since bombs hit on touch AC you don't need a good DEX to hit with them and hit often)
but hey thats just my experience ;)
you've gotta play it to understand it, half this stuff I learned and figured out as I went this class is an awesome gap filler it can cover so many roles in a group and even be modified on the fly as the groups needs change.
start the fight in melee and oh look the GM has brought out swarms no problem bombs work just fine on them, show me a front liner that can swap from effective melee to AOE and back again on the fly.
Good points. Still, I was thinking that I have too many options for my alchemist... I'm playing one as a hulking monster, I'm dealing a lot more damage than any other in my group (okay, summoner's eidolon comes close =). My fire bombs are kind of weak so I use bombs for battlefield control. I have explosive bombs which sets things on fire, I have fog cloud, dispelling bombs etc. I haven't taken the infusion discovery, so I don't share my extracts, but I do buff my friends with potions. I am kind of a secondary healer and the nice guy who buffs your strenght up. In other words, I love the Alchemist =).
Let me say up front that I'm not too fond of this class; I want to like it, I really do, but I can't. I believe I mentioned a few reason in my Mad Scientist/Evil Genius thread, but I'll go over it again:
Let me say up front that I am a mad, evil genius. I want to like mankind, I really do, but I can't. I believe I mentioned this already, but I'll repeat it for sake of completion: YOU WILL ALL DIE SCREAMING! MUAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!
I'm okay now.
A) The class is just another flavor of magic. When the playtests first began, I had hopes that it would be focused on the craft (alchemy) skill. Instead, it's just a mage who casts through potions. All of its infusions are spells. Its bombs are just weak fireballs.
Well, it also gets considerable bonuses for the Craft (alchemy) skill. The problem with that is that there's only so much you could do with that. It's stuff you have to create that costs money. The alchemist can do that - and better than anyone else (because of class bonuses to the skill checks and much faster creation) - but that alone would not make a viable class.
So the class simulates more alchemy madness, and one way it does that is spells.
Yeah, the infusions are all spells, but it's stuff you drink rather than cast. That can be a boon - you get potions of restoration, which are faster to use than the spell, without paying the 300 gil.
Plus, there are some neat tricks alchemists learn to do with spells and potions later, like drinking something and make it usable as an immediate action, or getting the use of one drink all day long!
Beyond that, bombs aren't just weak fireballs. Sure, they don't do as much damage as a fireball, but judging them on the basic bomb concept alone is very deceptive, as it misses all the other stuff you get via discoveries, like bombs that freeze others (and generally having your pick of element), drive them insane, or poison them. And, of course, you can learn to toss them as quickly as an archer shoots arrows.
Let me tell you that fast bombs can seriously ruin your s@!! if you're a BBEG. A certain efreeti found that out to his chagrin when he was assaulted by several loads of freezing doom, each of which was nasty enough for him (being vulnerable to cold).
And you forgot the mutagen altogether! Ah, the mutagen! Together with some of the infusions, this turns an alchemist into a monster - literally and figuratively.
Eventually, an alchemist with some focus on mutagens with the right infusions and gear can easily arm-wrestle most giants. Even a rune giant's strength might not be beyond the dedicated alchemist!
B) The class is selfish. While it is possible to "share the wealth," so to speak, it eats up resources to do so. You have to waste one of your discoveries in order for anyone else to benefit from your infusions.
They might be selfish, but so are other classes, and this one at least has an easy way to spread the wealth. Can a fighter share weapon training? Can a rogue grant sneak attack to others?
It's not necessarily a unique disadvantage.
Your bombs, strangely, don't function unless you throw them.
Well, it's meant to be a special attack for the alchemist, not for armies. The discovery that lets you throw as many bombs as you have attacks is nasty enough. If you could pass all your bombs out to all your followers, or even just your henchman and some party members to toss all in one round, it would be way too powerful.
Plus, this is even less unique than the infusion thing. Wizards can't pass their fireballs around for commoners to toss, either.
C) There don't seem to be too many ways to play it; you throw bombs and turn into a hulking monster. That's it. Every alchemist does just these things. So in effect, every alchemist is the same.
Every rogue stabs people in the back, every fighter uses his favourite weapon, every druid turns into beasts and mauls enemies.
Again, this is not something unique to alchemists. I will grant you that the alchemist is one of the more focussed concepts, but there's hardly only one way to play an alchemist:
You can focus on bombs, get many, many discoveries for them, get some extra bombs with feats, and stock up on alchemical "grenade-like" stuff (like alchy fire) to have something to throw when you run out of bombs. You could easily couple this up with ranged fighting.
The other option is to mostly ignore bombs, focus on self-improvement via infusions and mutagens, get your favourite weapon setup (two-handed weapon, two weapons, even sword&board if you limit yourself to very light-weight shields, spring for the proficiency feat or get a class of fighter or something like that), buff-binge, and tear the bastards to pieces.
You can do a balanced approach between the two.
If you consider the alchemist more a warrior-like class than a caster, and compare accordingly, you'll see that their versatility is par for the course.
Has anyone played the class? And if so, what was it like? Too strong or weak? How would you go about making your alchemist unique?
I didn't, but our LoF campaign had an alchemist in it. It was not too weak at all (though, to be honest, the resident powergamer played that character, and he can make everything overpowered).
Anyway, I thought it was an interesting character. She looked a lot like two-face (though this was because of her master's harsh and careless ways that left her acid-scarred). She did some bombing if she had to, but was just as likely to guzzle down a mutagen and a bunch of other buff infusions, and then go to town with her two sickles. Whenever I gave that character the opportunity to prepare for a fight, most of the enemies had to roll really well with their first attack to hit her - and if they weren't powerful enemies, they were praying for natural twenties.
Even a rune giant's strength might not be beyond the dedicated alchemist!
Yup, if I calculated it right, my Alchemist will achieve this at level 17. Which is kind of a bummer since Rune Giant is only CR 14. Hm...
Yup, if I calculated it right, my Alchemist will achieve this at level 17. Which is kind of a bummer since Rune Giant is only CR 14. Hm...Even a rune giant's strength might not be beyond the dedicated alchemist!
Rune giants were CR 14 in 3.5. The PFRPG version (from Bestiary 2) is CR 17.
Their AC is now 30 (instead of 29), they get 270 instead of 230 HP, saves are 15/6/20 instead of 19/7/7, they get immunity to fire instead of res 30 (but lose their immunity to mind-affecting). Their attacks actually make 2 points less damage, but their spell-like abilities are more fun now: They lose endure elements but gain demand and true seeing 1/day each, charm person at will, and their charms and compulsions now work against everything (they still get the +4 DC against giants, but no +10 bonus to skill checks). They no longer get to throw rocks at all, but use spears.
Their attributes were changed from Str 42, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 12 Cha 24 to Str 41, Dex 11, Con 28, Int 14, Wis 23 Cha 18.
Oh, and their space/reach reach has been corrected to 20/20.
In the feat department , they now get (Improved) Vital Strike and Staggering Critical.
I for one don't really care too much for the class. Not that I hate it or think its bad. I think it a pretty good class but I just don't care for its play style.
I know Paizo hasn't brought out any archetypes for it yet (hopefully they do in Ultimate Magic) but someone a while back posted an engineer archetype for it, and it was so well written, I decided to allow it in my games. The archetype fits more of my play style.
I'm currently running a game with 2 alchemists in it. One is just a straight alchemist and the other (although he doesn't come too often) is using the engineer archetype, and from what I've seen, there are distinct differences and they don't step on each others toes at all. My advice is to play something more your liking until Paizo releases official archetypes or make your own. From my experience, you either like or dislike the class, and the only way to like the class is to playtext it, maybe not in a long term campaign, but with a friend or two and see if you still like it then. I mostly just stay away from classes I don't care for (like ranger, paladin, summoner, wizard, witch) and ones I find interesting but don't know too much about (inquisitor, cavalier, barbarian) I may playtest.
Yup, if I calculated it right, my Alchemist will achieve this at level 17. Which is kind of a bummer since Rune Giant is only CR 14. Hm...Even a rune giant's strength might not be beyond the dedicated alchemist!
Rune giants were CR 14 in 3.5. The PFRPG version (from Bestiary 2) is CR 17.
Their AC is now 30 (instead of 29), they get 270 instead of 230 HP, saves are 15/6/20 instead of 19/7/7, they get immunity to fire instead of res 30 (but lose their immunity to mind-affecting). Their attacks actually make 2 points less damage, but their spell-like abilities are more fun now: They lose endure elements but gain demand and true seeing 1/day each, charm person at will, and their charms and compulsions now work against everything (they still get the +4 DC against giants, but no +10 bonus to skill checks). They no longer get to throw rocks at all, but use spears.
Their attributes were changed from Str 42, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 14, Wis 12 Cha 24 to Str 41, Dex 11, Con 28, Int 14, Wis 23 Cha 18.
Oh, and their space/reach reach has been corrected to 20/20.
In the feat department , they now get (Improved) Vital Strike and Staggering Critical.
Oh, that's cool. I've been thinking I should get myself a copy of Bestiary 2. Those are great changes and now I definitely have to go and find one to wrestle with when I reach level 17 =).
I think there is lots of room with Alchemist for archetypes, maybe we will see some in the Ultimate Magic book.
ARGH.. deleted post.. thats it, i', getting Lazarus
A) The class is just another flavor of magic. When the playtests first began, I had hopes that it would be focused on the craft (alchemy) skill. Instead, it's just a mage who casts through potions. All of its infusions are spells. Its bombs are just weak fireballs.
Considering that things that aren't based on magic are sub par, it's better that this class is based on magic. The fireballs not only do damage, they ALSO debuff: something rather rare in a wizard spell.
B) The class is selfish. While it is possible to "share the wealth," so to speak, it eats up resources to do so. You have to waste one of your discoveries in order for anyone else to benefit from your infusions. Your bombs, strangely, don't function unless you throw them.
- You get one discovery every other level and can get more with a feat. It is very, VERY much worth it to be able to buff your party with spells they normally can't cast on themselves, like shield and true strike, or spells that normally take too long to cast, like enlarge person.
- There is a discovery to set the bomb in place and have it blow up.
C) There don't seem to be too many ways to play it; you throw bombs and turn into a hulking monster. That's it. Every alchemist does just these things. So in effect, every alchemist is the same.
There's a few ways to build the alchemist
- Mr Hyde: turn into a giant hulking brute and beat things.
-Bomber: Damage/debuff people at the same time. With rapid shot you can freeze people (stagger them) set them on fire, AND knock them prone.
-Smoker: set up smoke clouds that blind people and at higher levels poison them.
In combat, my alchemist never seems to work the same way twice in a row. On easy fights, his 3/4 bab and high dex let him act as a half decent archer. On moderate fights he can lob a few bombs, on hard fights he downs a mutagen to send his dex to the stratosphere, has the party down the buffs he handed them that morning, and lets loose with the bombs left and right.
The last complaint is more than likely due to my own lack of imagination. I can't seem to find much in the way of individuality in the class; an alchemist from one town is pretty much the same as one from a different town. Or country.
-Recreational pharmacist that uses a little too much of his own product
-Chaotic good freedom fighter bringing magic to the common man without expensive components that most people could never afford.
-LN Perfectionist.
-Pyromaniac
-Arson for hire
-CN anarchist bringing down society for its oppressive ways.
-Greedy manufacturer looking to make lots of money
-Snake oil salesman (take this potion, you'll feel better!, make sure you're out of town before it expires)
-Pyromaniac
-Arson for hire
-CN anarchist bringing down society for its oppressive ways.
-Greedy manufacturer looking to make lots of money
All of these sum up my gnome alchemist in an evil campaign we just started.
I'm finding this class to be quite fun. I get to gleefully blow things up and have a trusty crossbow for when I run out of bombs. Many of the feats that benefit ranged attacks with a crossbow also benefit my bombs. Just starting out, so I haven't had the chance to play with some of the really fun stuff, but I'm looking forward to higher levels.
I actually did have a good idea for an alchemist. he would have a split personality where one side would be THE MAD ALCHEMIST who would burn and blow up everything he could but would be disguised (ridiculously i might add) so no one would know his identity, and his other half would be a detective looking to find the MAD ALCHEMIST to punish him for his crimes. this is still a ways off but i hope to do it soon.
I actually did have a good idea for an alchemist. he would have a split personality where one side would be THE MAD ALCHEMIST who would burn and blow up everything he could but would be disguised (ridiculously i might add) so no one would know his identity, and his other half would be a detective looking to find the MAD ALCHEMIST to punish him for his crimes. this is still a ways off but i hope to do it soon.
You should watch the french movie called ''Vidocq''. The main antagonist in this movie is the coolest Alchemist I ever saw. :)
Oh, that's cool. I've been thinking I should get myself a copy of Bestiary 2.
That book is pure, undiluted awesome.
You should watch the french movie called ''Vidocq''. The main antagonist in this movie is the coolest Alchemist I ever saw. :)
I'll have to watch that film again soon.
You really could have reminded me of that before I put all my DVDs into boxes for my upcoming move. Shame on you ;-P
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I just finished a campaign that lasted just under a year. I played an alchemist from 1 to 9, and it has to be one of the most fun characters I've ever played. I think it comes down to a matter of taste and what you enjoy playing. I was always a useful member of the party, I focused on bombs and smoke bombs. I could churn out potions like no one's business in our downtime, passing them out to our party before we would set out. What you call "selfish" I prefer to see as "self-sufficient", I could buff myself and didn't need to rely on our wizard or cleric.
By all means, I am not telling you are wrong! Your opinion is certainly valid and one I've heard before. I am just throwing in my defense for the class. Love the concept, loved how my character turned out, and love the class. Im just sad the campaign ended before seeing any archetypes for the class!
I know Paizo hasn't brought out any archetypes for it yet (hopefully they do in Ultimate Magic) but someone a while back posted an engineer archetype for it, and it was so well written, I decided to allow it in my games. The archetype fits more of my play style.
I would really like to see this archtype; it sounds like something that I can use, or at least draw inspiration from.
Considering that things that aren't based on magic are sub par, it's better that this class is based on magic.
This is actually the root of the problem of the Alchemist, in my mind. Magic is the be all and end all. And thus the majority of its features are based on magical effects. I would preferred for the Alchemist to focus on increasing the effectiveness of the mundane, rather than falling back on the magical; just declaring their infusions as supernatural abilities instead feel like laziness and a lack of creativity to me. The bombs need not be supernatural effects that mysteriously don't function for any other individual but the caster. Rather, they could have been designed as an augmented version of alchemist fire.
My complaint with extracts is that the majority of the spells on the list are not unique to the Alchemist; by and large, only a handful of the extracts available are exclusive to the class.
I can live with the design decision that extracts are basically magic spells in bottle form, that they are, for all intents and purposes potions that only the alchemist can use (unless he uses one ofhis discoveries), but it would have been nice if the magic potions weren't the same spells every mage or cleric has access to.
A design decision I've never been fond of, in any edition of the game, is making magic like science, and making science a joke in terms of usage and effectiveness; an Alchemsit just needs a spell component pouch to create a large number of magical bombs, but alchemists fire is expensive and relatively ineffective after the first few levels. I would have favored a method of scalling up the mundane alchemical items.
Considering that things that aren't based on magic are sub par, it's better that this class is based on magic.
This is actually the root of the problem of the Alchemist, in my mind. Magic is the be all and end all. And thus the majority of its features are based on magical effects. I would preferred for the Alchemist to focus on increasing the effectiveness of the mundane, rather than falling back on the magical; just declaring their infusions as supernatural abilities instead feel like laziness and a lack of creativity to me. The bombs need not be supernatural effects that mysteriously don't function for any other individual but the caster. Rather, they could have been designed as an augmented version of alchemist fire.
you do understand that Supernatural > Spells and Spell Like right ?
Supernatural effect unlike spells and spell like abilites are not hindered by things like spell resistance and spell immunity ;)
C) Yes, you might lack the imagination part a bit. Just as any class, there are multiple ways. You can play a sneaky alchemist that uses poisonous daggers, or the mad bomber. I agree that your damage potential is a bit limited, but your rogue is more or less a dagger wielder (or sniper).
With a huge damage bonus for certain conditions.
But yes, that is all they do in combat because "hitting things" is all any melee class can do.
Considering that things that aren't based on magic are sub par, it's better that this class is based on magic.
This is actually the root of the problem of the Alchemist, in my mind. Magic is the be all and end all. And thus the majority of its features are based on magical effects. I would preferred for the Alchemist to focus on increasing the effectiveness of the mundane, rather than falling back on the magical; just declaring their infusions as supernatural abilities instead feel like laziness and a lack of creativity to me. The bombs need not be supernatural effects that mysteriously don't function for any other individual but the caster. Rather, they could have been designed as an augmented version of alchemist fire.
you do understand that Supernatural > Spells and Spell Like right ?
Supernatural effect unlike spells and spell like abilites are not hindered by things like spell resistance and spell immunity ;)
True. But they are still dependent on the presence of magic in order to function. Effects that neutralize magic, such as Antimagic fields and dead magic areas (which my DM just loves using) invalidate infusions and bombs.
My complaint is that all of the alchemists abilities are magical in nature, rather than scientific, like the alchemical items listed in the PH. Further, the fact that magic is the only avenue of "power" in the game, and that the alchemist *could* have offered an alternative and failed, is the root of my contention with the class.
So you wanted a Chemyst and got an Alchemist...
The (Al)chemist wasn't a try to get technology into PF. That's why their progress is a progress in a branch of magic and not technology.
They are not really about spreading progress to armies and farmers like technology might. It's about making their immediate surrounding better.
Also keep in mind that if bombs were extraordinary and everybody would throw them, you could wait a year, make hundreds of bombs and drop a barrel of bombs on that dragon ... like a nuke.
There had to be a restriction, I would have preferred the IRA-bomber too, who would make moer traps than throw handgranades, but well, there has to be a balance.
True. But they are still dependent on the presence of magic in order to function. Effects that neutralize magic, such as Antimagic fields and dead magic areas (which my DM just loves using) invalidate infusions and bombs.
My complaint is that all of the alchemists abilities are magical in nature, rather than scientific, like the alchemical items listed in the PH. Further, the fact that magic is the only avenue of "power" in the game, and that the alchemist *could* have offered an alternative and failed, is the root of my contention with the class.
As little as I care, this deserves a +1.
Also keep in mind that if bombs were extraordinary and everybody would throw them, you could wait a year, make hundreds of bombs and drop a barrel of bombs on that dragon ... like a nuke.
I really have to say "So?" here.
An alchemist may not be a PhD wielding chemist, but he shouldn't especially be a Wizard. It's like the Alchemists are Orks - they are some sort of magic wielding class that believes they do SCIENCE! but really they just focus their magic into concoctions that only work certain ways.
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True. But they are still dependent on the presence of magic in order to function. Effects that neutralize magic, such as Antimagic fields and dead magic areas (which my DM just loves using) invalidate infusions and bombs.
My complaint is that all of the alchemists abilities are magical in nature, rather than scientific, like the alchemical items listed in the PH. Further, the fact that magic is the only avenue of "power" in the game, and that the alchemist *could* have offered an alternative and failed, is the root of my contention with the class.
While I certainly agree that it would have been nice to see them take a scientific approach to the class, I do not feel that because this didn't happen that the class is any less awesome. What you are talking about is merely the fluff of the class the way I see it: it would be easy enough to rewrite this part and state that all of the bombs and extracts and mutagens ARE scientific feats, and still use the same progressions, damage, effects etc. You might have to add a new source of the power, SU, EX and now SCI for scientific, but mechanically it would all work the same. Now the alchemist has used his scientific knowledge to reproduce some of these well known spells as a potion like substance. I would probably add new spells, like Grease, Web, that he could imitate as well by throwing these extracts rather than drinking them.
You hit on the only disappointment I have with the class; a class called the Alchemist should be able to make powered up versions of alchemical items. Higher DCs, more powerful effects, but costing more to make, as a function of their alchemist level. We did this in my campaign as a house rule, and it was pretty awesome. Gave a lot more use out of those really cool alchemical items, and had the very science feel you think is lacking.
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Vigilante super hero.
I introduce to you The Shadow or the Phantom. Give or take on if you are in Absolam or Cassomir.
You can play a batman/V/Phantom like character.
The great thing is all of my equipment comes from the Armory book.
Fuse Gernades, Grapling hook, Densa candles. Even smoke pellets.
All things that you can create with your very own alchemy skill.
On top of that with infusions and mutagens....Dr. Jekel/Mr Hyde?
That's my character concept I used when creating The Shadow of Absolam.
A 3 1/2 foot tall goblin in a mask. Good times.
Science changes the world. You want to bring in effective technology, that's a change to the setting, not a class feature. Mock tech like pulp mad-scientist gear, the alchemist can cover. Real science, and you're looking at industrial revolutions and gunpowder evolutions, not standard Pathfinder/D&D. If tech is available, anybody with craft and knowledge skills are making it, doesn't need special class abilities. That's the wonder of tech, it works the same whether the hulking fighter or the otherwise ungifted peasant are making/using it.
On a similar note, I'm not terribly happy about the heavy primary focus on being Jekyll/Hyde mad scientist.
Well, as has been pointed out, there's a variety of mad scientists possible with a base alchemist, not just the Jekyll/Hyde prestige class.
Well, as has been pointed out, there's a variety of mad scientists possible with a base alchemist, not just the Jekyll/Hyde prestige class.
Jekyll and Hyde is built into the class. It is an inherent class feature.
No, mutagens are. The option of it having an alternate personality is soft fluff except for the prestige class. Otherwise, it's just a combat effectiveness drug.
No, mutagens are. The option of it having an alternate personality is soft fluff except for the prestige class. Otherwise, it's just a combat effectiveness drug.
And it really has nothing to do with the class otherwise and "Jekyll and Hyde is fluff" or not, that is OBVIOUSLY where it derives the whole thing.
Alchemist as steroid addict, alchemist as professional killer with combat drug hotshots, alchemist with hermetic defensive sigils, alchemist with bioelectric reflex enhancers. Plenty of ways to play the mutagen without drawing on Jekyll/Hyde, and plenty of alchemists that may minimize their use of it or ignore it altogether, definitely not a primary focus that limits the character type or concept.
It naturally limits the class itself by existing.
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It naturally limits the class itself by existing.
You mean like rage limits the barbarian and sneak attack limits the rogue? This is only the first (not counting playtest) version of the Alchemist. Look at all they've done for barbs' rage and rogues' sneak attack by way of feats and alternate abilities. I'm looking forward to UM to see what they do with the Alchemist to make it more awesomer that it is.
It naturally limits the class itself by existing.You mean like rage limits the barbarian and sneak attack limits the rogue? This is only the first (not counting playtest) version of the Alchemist. Look at all they've done for barbs' rage and rogues' sneak attack by way of feats and alternate abilities. I'm looking forward to UM to see what they do with the Alchemist to make it more awesomer that it is.
Technically, yes, how those limit those classes because if they were absent, the classes would have to have different abilities to take their place. But the difference is those are directly related to and definitive of the class without limiting them any more conceptually than being a Barbarian or Rogue does. The Alchemist could lose the "mutagen" stuff and have lost nothing but space to be filled with some more fitting of a generic class concept.
Improving Mutagen in anyway does not remotely address the issue that it is too specific and really has jack to do with the rest of the class comparetively.
On a similar note, I'm not terribly happy about the heavy primary focus on being Jekyll/Hyde mad scientist.
I didn't consider it a the primary focus -- maybe an easy focus but not the only one. After all there are plenty of choices for a bomber, a skill monkey/poisoner/semi-mage, or a middle of the road everything type as well as the mutagen junkie.
Forgive my ignorance, but how is a potion that makes you stronger/faster/tougher and a potion that turns you into a homicidal maniac even remotely the same thing?
Forgive my ignorance, but how is a potion that makes you stronger/faster/tougher and a potion that turns you into a homicidal maniac even remotely the same thing?
Magic.
Forgive my ignorance, but how is a potion that makes you stronger/faster/tougher and a potion that turns you into a homicidal maniac even remotely the same thing?Magic.
I'm not sure I follow, do you mean that magic is why you feel that Mutagens are like Dr Jekyll's potion? Why then do you not complain about other magic wielding classes?
No, mutagens are. The option of it having an alternate personality is soft fluff except for the prestige class. Otherwise, it's just a combat effectiveness drug.And it really has nothing to do with the class otherwise and "Jekyll and Hyde is fluff" or not, that is OBVIOUSLY where it derives the whole thing.
Not really. Dr. J. had an elixir that changed his personality, too. The normally mild-mannered scientist turned into a brutal, blood-thirsty monster.
Alchemists aren't like that. They're just juicers. They might take a (light) hit to their mental faculties, but their personality doesn't change.
Forgive my ignorance, but how is a potion that makes you stronger/faster/tougher and a potion that turns you into a homicidal maniac even remotely the same thing?Magic.
Stop trolling.
Not really. Dr. J. had an elixir that changed his personality, too. The normally mild-mannered scientist turned into a brutal, blood-thirsty monster.
Alchemists aren't like that. They're just juicers. They might take a (light) hit to their mental faculties, but their personality doesn't change.
Thanks for the Rifts reference -- I like that.
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The last complaint is more than likely due to my own lack of imagination. I can't seem to find much in the way of individuality in the class; an alchemist from one town is pretty much the same as one from a different town. Or country.
What I'm really looking for is another perspective of this class. Are my opinions unfounded? Has anyone played the class? And if so, what was it like? Too strong or weak? How would you go about making your alchemist unique?
How do you make any character unique? I don't see how the alchemist is any more or less subject to this than any other class. What makes a barbarian or a rogue different from the barbarian or rogue he's standing next to?
You can argue that nearly any class is pigeon holed similarly to an extent. Druids for example are far more limited than alchemists. You are the guy who casts entangle, and produce flame standing next to the animal companion. When you get a little higher level you are the guy who turns into a bear next to the animal companion.
No, mutagens are. The option of it having an alternate personality is soft fluff except for the prestige class. Otherwise, it's just a combat effectiveness drug.And it really has nothing to do with the class otherwise and "Jekyll and Hyde is fluff" or not, that is OBVIOUSLY where it derives the whole thing.Not really. Dr. J. had an elixir that changed his personality, too. The normally mild-mannered scientist turned into a brutal, blood-thirsty monster.
Alchemists aren't like that. They're just juicers. They might take a (light) hit to their mental faculties, but their personality doesn't change.
1) That's not exactly what it did in Jekyll and Hyde
2) That's what Paizo's sample Alchemist is.The mutagen was obviously created based on the caricature of what Jekyll and Hyde has become, which has nothing to do with alchemy (inexplicably yet unsurprisingly) and loads the class down with a filled ability slot that could be better filled by something more applicable.
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No, mutagens are. The option of it having an alternate personality is soft fluff except for the prestige class. Otherwise, it's just a combat effectiveness drug.And it really has nothing to do with the class otherwise and "Jekyll and Hyde is fluff" or not, that is OBVIOUSLY where it derives the whole thing.
It is one of the design inspirations of the class, the developers have flat out said this. Just because the class enables you to play a fictional trope doesn't mean you are limited to playing that trope.
Similarly the barbarian and rogue classes are inspired by Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, that doesn't mean you need to play those characters or even similar ones.
No, mutagens are. The option of it having an alternate personality is soft fluff except for the prestige class. Otherwise, it's just a combat effectiveness drug.And it really has nothing to do with the class otherwise and "Jekyll and Hyde is fluff" or not, that is OBVIOUSLY where it derives the whole thing.Not really. Dr. J. had an elixir that changed his personality, too. The normally mild-mannered scientist turned into a brutal, blood-thirsty monster.
Alchemists aren't like that. They're just juicers. They might take a (light) hit to their mental faculties, but their personality doesn't change.
1) That's not exactly what it did in Jekyll and Hyde
2) That's what Paizo's sample Alchemist is.The mutagen was obviously created based on the caricature of what Jekyll and Hyde has become, which has nothing to do with alchemy (inexplicably yet unsurprisingly) and loads the class down with a filled ability slot that could be better filled by something more applicable.
You can play it as Jekyll/Hyde but you don't have to. In fact my party's alchemist (a bomber who boosts dexterity) gets more heroic when he drinks his mutagen, in that he makes less wise decisions.