I don't care if it's about putting the "dancer" into "shadowdancer", that requirement is pretty much useless.
Why ? Because none of its prestige class requires a Perform (dance) check.
I could have understood if s/he had to make such a check for Shadow Jump, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Shadow Power and Shadow Master, but s/he doesn't... so what's the use again ???
probably as a legacy of the 3.5. the 3.5 version likely had itnto putvdance in shadow dancer. you could probably change it to allow shadow dancers to use perform dance for stealth or something.
I'm betting its a fluff thing if a class was called shadowdancer and didn't need dancing would be like doing a Songcaster mage (just made it up :)) without needing to sing.
I'm betting its a fluff thing if a class was called shadowdancer and didn't need dancing would be like doing a Songcaster mage (just made it up :)) without needing to sing.
/sign - especially as it's only 2 Ranks
|
I don't care if it's about putting the "dancer" into "shadowdancer", that requirement is pretty much useless.
Why ? Because none of its prestige class requires a Perform (dance) check.
I could have understood if s/he had to make such a check for Shadow Jump, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Shadow Power and Shadow Master, but s/he doesn't... so what's the use again ???
It's your basic training for the advanced movements of the PrC, presumably the art of shadow dancing does involve variations of actual dance moves for invoking the power, but since it's all about putting yourself out of sight, you're not really "performing".
It's just like how certain martial arts are evolutions of exotic dance moves.
I think you may have that one backwards.
|
|
I think you may have that one backwards.I don't care if it's about putting the "dancer" into "shadowdancer", that requirement is pretty much useless.
Why ? Because none of its prestige class requires a Perform (dance) check.
I could have understood if s/he had to make such a check for Shadow Jump, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Shadow Power and Shadow Master, but s/he doesn't... so what's the use again ???
It's your basic training for the advanced movements of the PrC, presumably the art of shadow dancing does involve variations of actual dance moves for invoking the power, but since it's all about putting yourself out of sight, you're not really "performing".
It's just like how certain martial arts are evolutions of exotic dance moves.
Google up the topic. here's one good page on the subject.
http://www.karatebyjesse.com/?p=4404
and there's at least a couple of stories on how slave populations used dance to hide the fact that they were practising martial arts.
But that's more of dance evolving from martial arts. But to each their own.
I always saw it as a skill tax to get into the PrC. WoTC liked to do that, make you pick up odd feats/skills as a tax for the awesomeness (in theory) of the PrC.
O... k...
Wouldn't Acrobatics and Spellcraft be more appropriate ?
|
Stealth and Acrobatics checks definitely would have made more sense.
Although a perform (dance) based pseudo-arcane dude could be kinda neat.
Shuffle, shuffle, step to the left.
"What's that, Dance, Dance, Ray of Enfeeblement?"
Hope to the right, pelvic thrust, "No, Dance, Dance, Zombie Apocalypse."
<Gulp>
Or hey, we could have a 'Puddlejumper' class that uses Swim checks to teleport between any two wet, damp or mist-enshrouded areas, via the Plane of Elemental Water, and has a Water Elemental companion and Obscuring Mist SLAs...
Or an Earthstomper, who uses perform (percussion) checks to do the same via the Elemental Plane of Earth, and can earth glide for short distances.
In the original 3e fluff they were described as being parts of performing troupes many times. So it was a flavor thing. Personally, I feel if it built itself as a bard PrC, then the dance thing would be more in play. Now I may have to rewrite it for my homebrew.
|
Shuffle, shuffle, step to the left.
"What's that, Dance, Dance, Ray of Enfeeblement?"
Hope to the right, pelvic thrust, "No, Dance, Dance, Zombie Apocalypse."
<Gulp>
What happens if he jumps to the left and steps to the right? :D
What happens if he jumps to the left and steps to the right? :DShuffle, shuffle, step to the left.
"What's that, Dance, Dance, Ray of Enfeeblement?"
Hope to the right, pelvic thrust, "No, Dance, Dance, Zombie Apocalypse."
<Gulp>
Then he's doing the time warp -- and at that point I believe your race automatically changes to time lord.
What happens if he jumps to the left and steps to the right? :DShuffle, shuffle, step to the left.
"What's that, Dance, Dance, Ray of Enfeeblement?"
Hope to the right, pelvic thrust, "No, Dance, Dance, Zombie Apocalypse."
<Gulp>
I was thinking of that song as well.
Personally to shadow jump, ill hope that these are the motions required.
To why the skill is required, it might be a flavor thing. or to join the club, you need to dance. Could be worse, to join the other prestige class that allows hide in plain sight (much later down the line) you need to kill somebody they ask you to, just to prove you're one of them.
Anyway, for one prestige classes they want the player to take some skills that they wouldn't necessarily have taken on their own. Its the cost of becoming one. And as a rogue or a bard, two skill ranks in a skill you don't use is a very small cost. But at the next formal dinner, you could out dance all the other adventurers.
Shadowdancers transfom Art in Stealth, and Stealth in Art.
More Poetry, people. More Poetry.
Shadowdancers require Perform; Assassins require Disguise.
Why aren't we looking at the vestigial requirement of an Assassin's Disguise? There are no Assassin abilities that rely on, or reinforce Disguise. Just like a Shadowdancer's Perform.
For me it's easy: Shadowdancers are not *clap hands* miracled into existence. They are taught by other Shadowdancers. In order to be be accepted into the ranks as a novice the candidate has to *prove* they can perform certain, specific physical requirements. The same thing goes for assassins-you have to be able to 'pass the entrance exam'.
Each group is likely an informal collection of skilled maesters. And like Mr Miyagi, the maesters have to ensure the students will be able to succeed in the training before wasting time giving the training.
GNOME
Shadowdancers transfom Art in Stealth, and Stealth in Art.
More Poetry, people. More Poetry.
+1 Thanks, Kai :)
They are taught by other Shadowdancers. In order to be be accepted into the ranks as a novice the candidate has to *prove* they can perform certain, specific physical requirements. GNOME
Edited quote.
Well said, Sir. To me, this is the best reasoned responce. I was in the camp of liking the requirement, but had dificulty explaining it. You have done a great job of it, and I will use this when I explain why I do not "handwaive" it away.
Thank You,
Greg
Then he's doing the time warp -- and at that point I believe your race automatically changes to time lord.
What happens if he jumps to the left and steps to the right? :D
You, sir, win teh intarwebs.
I now have to go find strong drink to erase the image of Jonathan Pertwee in a leather bustier from my brain. And do a thorough enough job that the images of the other Doctors as members of Frankenfurter's crew don't arise unbidden. (Who would bid them?)
To answer the question:
Because nobody was ever able to decide if skill requirements were meant to be there for fluff reasons or for actual requirement reasons.
I can explain this... through the medium of dance!
As an extra requirement for becoming an assassin, some people forget that they actually need you to kill somebody to join. Somebody they point out.
As an extra requirement for becoming an assassin, some people forget that they actually need you to kill somebody to join. Somebody they point out.
Demmit!!! My characters have just been murdering completely random people for no other reason than to prove they could do it to join a guild!!! No wonder it hasn't worked yet. Oh well. Back to the drawing and quartering board.
Greg
Creative Director
|
My take: two reasons.
1) Because the word "dance" is in the class name, but none of its abilities really have anything to do with dancing at all. Thus, the Perform (dance) requirement is there to justify the cool name, really. Not the BEST reason to have dance requirements, but it IS a reason. Personally, were I designing the class from scratch, I would have probably given the class some dance-related moves/powers.
2) As an admission fee. A prestige class that you can "fall" into by doing nothing unusual isn't really prestigious. The assassin comes close to this problem, although the requirement that you be evil does help to make it a tough thing for most PCs to qualify for. But beyond that, the assassin's prestige class requriements are things that any rogue is going to probably have anyway by the time he reaches the minimum level that prestige class requires. By putting some Perform (dance) ranks in as a requirement for the shadowdancer, we ensure that it's not a class that the generic rogue can auto-qualify for. You have to do something unusual, in other words, to get into the prestige class. Gives it some neat flavor, I think, and helps to make the decision to become a shadowdancer more meaningful for those who want to take levels in the class while helping to filter out those who are just trying to numbercrunch their way in.
Now, all that said? If you're the GM and you think that having Perform (dance) as a requirement for the class is stupid or silly, by all means change it! That's what makes a tabletop RPG so much more fun and rewarding than computer games; you don't need to study for years to learn a programming language to change the game into the one YOU want to play.
Also, in Unearthed Arcana they had a variant called "test based prerequisites" in which the Character wishing to join a prestige class must, get this, PASS A TEST! instead of having "X" skill ranks, feats, etc. Meeting the normal requirements for the PrC made it easier to pass the test. The Shadow dancer had to make a DC 15 perform(dance) check as part of the requirements.
Think of it like that.
As an extra requirement for becoming an assassin, some people forget that they actually need you to kill somebody to join. Somebody they point out.Demmit!!! My characters have just been murdering completely random people for no other reason than to prove they could do it to join a guild!!! No wonder it hasn't worked yet. Oh well. Back to the drawing and quartering board.
Greg
I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.
I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.
Maybe those shadowdancers got it right, a few hours at Arthur Murray Dance studio... and voila! blend into the shadows.
How does the shadowdancer guild dental plan compare to the Assassin Guild?
Greg
I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.Maybe those shadowdancers got it right, a few hours at Arthur Murray Dance studio... and voila! blend into the shadows.
How does the shadowdancer guild dental plan compare to the Assassin Guild?
Greg
Sorry to say this, but the Red Mantis Organization of Mediogalti has the best medical and dental plans ever. they have free doughnuts and milk on thursdays too. and a massive variety of both to boot.
Sorry to say this, but the Red Mantis Organization of Mediogalti has the best medical and dental plans ever. they have free doughnuts and milk on thursdays too. and a massive variety of both to boot.I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.Maybe those shadowdancers got it right, a few hours at Arthur Murray Dance studio... and voila! blend into the shadows.
How does the shadowdancer guild dental plan compare to the Assassin Guild?
Greg
Totally freekin awesome! Who do you have to kill to get in an orginization like that? :P
Greg
Sorry to say this, but the Red Mantis Organization of Mediogalti has the best medical and dental plans ever. they have free doughnuts and milk on thursdays too. and a massive variety of both to boot.I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.Maybe those shadowdancers got it right, a few hours at Arthur Murray Dance studio... and voila! blend into the shadows.
How does the shadowdancer guild dental plan compare to the Assassin Guild?
Greg
Totally freekin awesome! Who do you have to kill to get in an orginization like that? :P
Greg
I have heard rumors about this group. Seems they also teach you how to use some nice swords, and they wear red. I love red.
I have heard rumors about this group. Seems they also teach you how to use some nice swords, and they wear red. I love red.
One of the many good quotes from Walpurgis III by Mike Resnick.
Greg
I have heard rumors about this group. Seems they also teach you how to use some nice swords, and they wear red. I love red.
One of the many good quotes from Walpurgis III by Mike Resnick.
Greg
Awesome!
My take: two reasons.
1) Because the word "dance" is in the class name, but none of its abilities really have anything to do with dancing at all. Thus, the Perform (dance) requirement is there to justify the cool name, really. Not the BEST reason to have dance requirements, but it IS a reason. Personally, were I designing the class from scratch, I would have probably given the class some dance-related moves/powers.
2) As an admission fee. A prestige class that you can "fall" into by doing nothing unusual isn't really prestigious. The assassin comes close to this problem, although the requirement that you be evil does help to make it a tough thing for most PCs to qualify for. But beyond that, the assassin's prestige class requriements are things that any rogue is going to probably have anyway by the time he reaches the minimum level that prestige class requires. By putting some Perform (dance) ranks in as a requirement for the shadowdancer, we ensure that it's not a class that the generic rogue can auto-qualify for. You have to do something unusual, in other words, to get into the prestige class. Gives it some neat flavor, I think, and helps to make the decision to become a shadowdancer more meaningful for those who want to take levels in the class while helping to filter out those who are just trying to numbercrunch their way in.
3) Now, all that said? If you're the GM and you think that having Perform (dance) as a requirement for the class is stupid or silly, by all means change it! That's what makes a tabletop RPG so much more fun and rewarding than computer games; you don't need to study for years to learn a programming language to change the game into the one YOU want to play.
1) That's what actually got me thinking of that weird requirement.
2) In 3.5, it actually looked more specialized than in Pathfinder, simply because now, all skills are available to all classes, including Stealth and Perform (Dance)
3) I'm actually not inclined to remove the requirement, but to add it for the class features as a check, like DC 15 and DC 20 for Shadow Call and Shadow Power, respectively.
Thanks for your input.
I think you may have that one backwards.I don't care if it's about putting the "dancer" into "shadowdancer", that requirement is pretty much useless.
Why ? Because none of its prestige class requires a Perform (dance) check.
I could have understood if s/he had to make such a check for Shadow Jump, Shadow Illusion, Shadow Call, Shadow Power and Shadow Master, but s/he doesn't... so what's the use again ???
It's your basic training for the advanced movements of the PrC, presumably the art of shadow dancing does involve variations of actual dance moves for invoking the power, but since it's all about putting yourself out of sight, you're not really "performing".
It's just like how certain martial arts are evolutions of exotic dance moves.
It is truly ouroborean. Which came first- the chicken or the egg?
actually the martial art was first.
It was outlawed.
then reinvented and disguised as tribal dance.
Sorry to say this, but the Red Mantis Organization of Mediogalti has the best medical and dental plans ever. they have free doughnuts and milk on thursdays too. and a massive variety of both to boot.I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.Maybe those shadowdancers got it right, a few hours at Arthur Murray Dance studio... and voila! blend into the shadows.
How does the shadowdancer guild dental plan compare to the Assassin Guild?
Greg
Massive variety of Milk?
|
|
Because you need Dance to enact your HIPS ability by performing the reverse dance of the seven veils, this time with veils of Shadowstuff.
Oh wait, HIPS doesn't actually use shadow to conceal the Shadowdancer (according to a strict interpretation of RAW and those that steadfastly maintain the HIPS can't be defeated by Darkvision)! Maybe HIPS is actually a rad dance move that blurs the Shadowdancer?
Another example of where the mechanics and the fluff don't marry well in this Prestige Class.
Massive variety of Milk?Sorry to say this, but the Red Mantis Organization of Mediogalti has the best medical and dental plans ever. they have free doughnuts and milk on thursdays too. and a massive variety of both to boot.I was killing a lot of babies (very easy target) to get in, but alas it didnt work.Maybe those shadowdancers got it right, a few hours at Arthur Murray Dance studio... and voila! blend into the shadows.
How does the shadowdancer guild dental plan compare to the Assassin Guild?
Greg
Skim, 1%, 2%, whole (3.25%), homogenized, butter, chocolate (which often contains buttermilk to thicken it up), banana, strawberry, coconut, soy, powdered, evaporated, condensed...
That's what I could think of off the top of my head...
Because you need Dance to enact your HIPS ability by performing the reverse dance of the seven veils, this time with veils of Shadowstuff.
Oh wait, HIPS doesn't actually use shadow to conceal the Shadowdancer (according to a strict interpretation of RAW and those that steadfastly maintain the HIPS can't be defeated by Darkvision)! Maybe HIPS is actually a rad dance move that blurs the Shadowdancer?
Another example of where the mechanics and the fluff don't marry well in this Prestige Class.
The one time i finally made a shadowdancer, and now he cannot hide in shadows anymore.
HiPS is easy, just move your hips like this... there, now they can even be looking right at you, but wont see you anymore.