Well said for a poodle.
What? Did you say something? I was licking myself again.
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I removed some posts. If you would like an explanation for why material you posted was removed, please feel free to email me. My email address is listed on the "Contact Us" page, or on my profile.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone that trolls thrive on attention, negative or otherwise. Attempting to prove that they are incorrect, or that you know they are a troll, only encourages them to continue.
Instead, simply pretend the post isn't there. If it violates our messageboard rules, please flag it. Don't call them out. Don't tell them you're going to ignore them. Just continue the conversation as if there were not there, just like a child throwing a tantrum.
Thank you for making the Paizo messageboards a more friendly and civil place.
As this thread has deviated away from the original question of ‘do you hate being forced into roles in RPGs’ and devolved into yet another ‘this class is best in PF / this class sucks in PF’ argument, and Ross and Liz are having to spend time monitoring the discussion, perhaps the thread should be locked with apologies to the OP?
A pity, as the original discussion was an interesting one with some good takes on both side before some of the usual suspects arrived to derail it.
As this thread has deviated away from the original question of ‘do you hate being forced into roles in RPGs’ and devolved into yet another ‘this class is best in PF / this class sucks in PF’ argument, and Ross and Liz are having to spend time monitoring the discussion, perhaps the thread should be locked with apologies to the OP?
A pity, as the original discussion was an interesting one with some good takes on both side before some of the usual suspects arrived to derail it.
I prefer to acid splash them and feed them to billy goats. Gruff, but so worth it. ;-)
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I use the Miniatures Handbook Healer class for an DMPC to take the need for healing off my players. Other than undead, that class can't outshine the party on anything.
I do notice the difference when there are no arcane casters in the party. My SCAP party in both playthroughs have had that archetype unrepresented, and it has made things harder on them.
...Your generalisations are just assumptions based on your own anecdotal experience which - if you hadn't noticed by now - is a very long way from being universal...
Ya know, this could be a mantra of sorts for this entire forum. Before telling anyone they are wrong, read this to yourself. ooohhmmmmmmm
...Your generalisations are just assumptions based on your own anecdotal experience which - if you hadn't noticed by now - is a very long way from being universal...Ya know, this could be a mantra of sorts for this entire forum. Before telling anyone they are wrong, read this to yourself. ooohhmmmmmmm
Just so. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' way to play the game, and the only way to 'win' is to have fun. If your idea of fun is playing games where uber-optimised casters stomp every encounter flat in 15-minute adventuring days, great. If your idea of fun is to try and make the most sub-optimal concept you can think of work, also great.
But no one is in any position to tell anyone that their way is the only way that works. If you want to make a point, make your conditions of such a point also clear.
Back on subject, the most usual 'constraint' I have had is when the DM mentioned what the party could probably do with, and what they already had enough of. Last game I joined, they had combat power and magic enough, they could use stealth. Given the nature of the game I felt that from core I had a choice of monk, ranger or rogue to fill those boots ... that's still more than enough choice for me!
NPC with 1 class level = fractional CR.
A Riding Dog is CR1.
Sometimes players need to be 'forced' into roles to create a range of playing options. It is good if there are 'niches' for each player to fulfill, some/most players like to be the best/competant in their chosen region.
Although i find it is good if the party has a theme, or ability that the whole party uses. Travelling musicians, stealthers or social classes are all nice groups that i have played and have made the game better than random group of misfits which cover the roles needed.
Skill based system seem to make it easier to not need roles, provided someone has spent at least 1 point in the skill.
Yes it is. And 1 + fractional = around 1. What is your point?A Riding Dog is CR1.
NPC with 1 class level = fractional CR.
It is > 1. Which is my point.
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Sort of as a counterpoint to the OP, I much more hate when a player takes on a role voluntarily and then does not do what that role is supposed to do. For example, I played in a group where one of the other players wanted to be a rogue. He liked the sneaking and back stabbing and the like. He was good at opening doors and chests, but he absolutely refused to check for traps. His attitude was that since he had trapfinding, if there was a trap the DM would tell him. This led to the party being almost killed on several occasions. To me that is more of an annoyance then being asked to play a role that is not filled yet.
Who said the dogs were in packs? I said multiple sure, but not all at once.Who says the guards are wielding gongs? You know you can post them somewhere nearby, and give people instructions to smack them if there's a problem right?
Apparently being facetious is impossible here.
Point: Your scenario is just as arbitrary and contrived as his.
And you know that even a team of one guy, and one dog, which is as low level as it gets and is not at all a hard encounter for a level 1 partyDid the encounter system change in pathfinder? 1 guy and a riding dog is at least a CR1 encounter.NPC with 1 class level = fractional CR.
So the encounter is around CR 1, for a level 1 party, and is therefore not at all a hard encounter, because it is quite routine. However this in no way changes the fact that the dog alone can take the Rogue, and since he's scouting the rest of the group is not nearby, therefore stealth does not work.
Despite what certain people say as a straw man argument.
The rogue has a 50/50 chance of getting past the dog alone. For a single level 1 character, a CR1/2 encounter is reasonably challenging, so this is a reasonable outcome. If the dog barks, they can high tail it out, no loss, and try again later.
Admittedly using invisibility and silence etc would be much more effective ... no, wait, they are 2nd level spells, so OF COURSE the spell casters at 3rd level have a much better chance than the 1st level rogue. The rogue at 3rd level would make a meal of the dog too, so what was your point again?
The rogue at 3rd level would make a meal of the dog too, so what was your point again?
Eating dog is wrong.
The rogue at 3rd level would make a meal of the dog too, so what was your point again?Eating dog is wrong.
Unless you are also a dog, because it is a dog-eat-dog world.
Sort of as a counterpoint to the OP, I much more hate when a player takes on a role voluntarily and then does not do what that role is supposed to do. For example, I played in a group where one of the other players wanted to be a rogue. He liked the sneaking and back stabbing and the like. He was good at opening doors and chests, but he absolutely refused to check for traps. His attitude was that since he had trapfinding, if there was a trap the DM would tell him. This led to the party being almost killed on several occasions. To me that is more of an annoyance then being asked to play a role that is not filled yet.
I agree that especially in a party driven game when a player has a denominated role that he should use it without being spoon-fed by the GM, but sometimes it is quite interesting to have an ability that you can keep in reserve without being forced to use it.
For example, the party after a few sessions realises that your PC is a rogue/spellcaster masquerading as a Fighter. But of course a player has to meaningfully contribute to a game.
Unless you are also a dog, because it is a dog-eat-dog world.
Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point.
Unless you are also a dog, because it is a dog-eat-dog world.Oh yeah, an African swallow, maybe, but not a European swallow. That's my point.
Which one carries the coconut again?
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Sort of as a counterpoint to the OP, I much more hate when a player takes on a role voluntarily and then does not do what that role is supposed to do. For example, I played in a group where one of the other players wanted to be a rogue. He liked the sneaking and back stabbing and the like. He was good at opening doors and chests, but he absolutely refused to check for traps. His attitude was that since he had trapfinding, if there was a trap the DM would tell him. This led to the party being almost killed on several occasions. To me that is more of an annoyance then being asked to play a role that is not filled yet.I agree that especially in a party driven game when a player has a denominated role that he should use it without being spoon-fed by the GM, but sometimes it is quite interesting to have an ability that you can keep in reserve without being forced to use it.
For example, the party after a few sessions realises that your PC is a rogue/spellcaster masquerading as a Fighter. But of course a player has to meaningfully contribute to a game.
I agree that having a little something in reserve is a cool thing. I ran an Eberron campaign one time where I was the only one who knew that one of the players was running a Changeling. The rest of the party thought that he was playing a half-orc. However, in the case I cited above, the player announced when he joined the game that he was playing a rogue and we even picked him up as a party member because he had been arrested by my characters father and was only released into my custody because we needed someone with thief skills for the mission we were undertaking. In those situations you should not hold back or expect the DM to spoon feed you or hold back on the party.
I use the Miniatures Handbook Healer class for an DMPC to take the need for healing off my players. Other than undead, that class can't outshine the party on anything.
Ooooh, ouch. Lemme remove that dagger from my back. That hit a little close to home. :-)
I'm currently playing a 9th-level Healer in a homebrew campaign. Much like playing a healbot in City of Heroes, having a player character with zero offensive capability is sometimes refreshing. I'm definitely breaking the mold with this character. He depends more upon his Diplomacy, Heal, and Survival skills than his battle prowess.
Of course, part of the fun comes in the reveal. If no-one ever find out that you are a changeling (or whatever), its revealed lamely or causes conflict in the party then its not fun.
We also had a player run a secret changeling in Star Wars, but it did not go as well as yours.
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Ooooh, ouch. Lemme remove that dagger from my back. That hit a little close to home. :-)
I'm currently playing a 9th-level Healer in a homebrew campaign. Much like playing a healbot in City of Heroes, having a player character with zero offensive capability is sometimes refreshing. I'm definitely breaking the mold with this character. He depends more upon his Diplomacy, Heal, and Survival skills than his battle prowess.
Well, let me try to heal that stab wound a bit. :) Note that I specifically said 'outshine' instead of something like 'contribute'. I did see your earlier post about alternate challenges your character can tackle, and I like the roleplaying aspect you had. I merely was pointing out that the class is certainly not going to overshadow the party as a DMPC unless the DM buffs it significantly.
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Of course, part of the fun comes in the reveal. If no-one ever find out that you are a changeling (or whatever), its revealed lamely or causes conflict in the party then its not fun.
We also had a player run a secret changeling in Star Wars, but it did not go as well as yours.
We revealed the fact slowly and subtly. Mainly we dropped little hints so that when the reveal finally came it was more like "oh, well now it makes sense," rather than WTF. For example, when the PC looked like a big burly half orc, but routinely failed easy Strength checks (because he had STR 8) the party began to wonder what was up. It was little things like that that made the reveal fun.
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The rogue at 3rd level would make a meal of the dog too, so what was your point again?Which is why you can't discuss this honestly without builds.
It is easy to have everything at every level at all times. But the game is played with what you have at the moment you need it, at the level you are when you are playing.
How is anyone getting past the dog with scent at first level using reasonable 1st level resources is a game type question. So is "how are you beating up a zombie" or "How are you finding the killer" or "How or you rescuing (blank)"
Some classes will do better than others in some circumstances. Some will do it as well in a different way with greater or lesser resource use. Some parties will have more available options than others.
Most of us like the game because of the replayablity that comes with so many different ways to deal with situations.
Roles are just option for solving issues. If your party can solve the problems, all the roles are filled.
Which is why you can't discuss this honestly without builds.
"Not really a fighter build." Hmpf! *sulks*
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When I DM, I have a line to my players concerning group balance:
"If you replace your character, feel free to replace it with whatever you want. However, keep in mind that your old character filled some kind of role and the other players may die without you in that role. Tell everyone else what you'll be done and how so they can adapt"
It's worked out so far. We recently had a player drop as an Urban Ranger (archery) and replace that with an Alchemist who specializes in mutagens. The group talked (in and out of character) and then survived Skeletons of Scarwall with minimal deaths.
Ooooh, ouch. Lemme remove that dagger from my back. That hit a little close to home. :-)Well, let me try to heal that stab wound a bit. :) Note that I specifically said 'outshine' instead of something like 'contribute'. I did see your earlier post about alternate challenges your character can tackle, and I like the roleplaying aspect you had. I merely was pointing out that the class is certainly not going to overshadow the party as a DMPC unless the DM buffs it significantly.
You did say you had your Healer as a DMPC. The Healer doesn't require too much upkeep, other than making potions and wands, which I opted for. I literally just wait until the Fighter has so many weapons he's thinking of hiring a sword caddy that I relieve him of a heavy mace or two.
And for my next trick, a new-type psion from Psionics Unleashed! The game is 16 Jan evening, I believe. We'll see how open-minded (sorry, bad pun) the table is to psions now.
If he is caught, he dies.
... Or he runs away (guard dogs are usually chained up, so he gets at the very least a head start).
... Or the rest of the party steam in (this is the usual solution).
... Or he talks his way out of it, like the rogue in an Eberron game who pretended to be delivering Aundarian Pizza (it was drugged for the dogs, in the event the guards got drugged too) and had the forethought to be disguised as the pizza delivery boy.
Dog is faster, dog runs down Rogue, Rogue dies. We've been over this.Rogue leads dog to party. Party kills dog.
Rogue climbs up something. Dog can't climb. Rogue shoots at dog. Dog dies/run away.
Making declarations with no substance doesn't make you right. It has been mentioned that said dog is chained up (maybe you didn't see that), and this gives the rogue a head start. If the dog isn't chained the rogue introduces a cat. Dog chases cat. Rogue no longer has to worry about the dog - that is why the dog HAS to be chained up.
Of course you could get super-well trained dogs that won't chase when ordered to stay and guard, but then the rogue doesn't have to worry about getting chased anyway ...
Rogue leads dog to party. Party kills dog.
Rogue climbs up something. Dog can't climb. Rogue shoots at dog. Dog dies/run away.
Or the rogue simply pulls out both daggers/short swords and kills the dog in one round.
I really can't believe you people are still feeding the troll.
Rogue sneaks past dog because it's thematically appropriate.
Or the rogue simply pulls out both daggers/short swords and kills the dog in one round.
According to the Great Authority, he loses because rogues cannot fight.
I really can't believe you people are still feeding the troll.
It's addictive. The troll says some very ridiculous things and you just have to point out the obvious flaws ... then he moves the goalposts and declares himself right. You point out more flaws, and he does it again ... and you realise that he is never, ever going to admit there is anything wrong with his lack of logic and common sense. He'll always move the goalposts and declare himself right no matter what you do, and always say your arguments are strawmen when he cannot move the goalposts any further.
Rogue sneaks past dog because it's thematically appropriate.
Or, the rogue simply goes in more than 30 or 60 feet away from the dog.
Seriously, a rogue that can't find another way in simply isn't a rogue.
Rogue sneaks past dog because it's thematically appropriate.
I don't see "thematically appropriate" in the rules. That's just crazy talk.
Rogue sneaks past dog because it's thematically appropriate.I don't see "thematically appropriate" in the rules. That's just crazy talk.
Yes, CoDvilla's rules clearly state that only spell-casters can do that. Non-casters aren't awesome enough to ever have anything good happen to them, apparently.
C'mon guys don't pick on the poster.
It's addictive.
Anger at lies lasts forever. Anger at truth can't last. --Greg Evans
C'mon guys don't pick on the poster.
+1. Look at it this way: even if half of what he says doesn't apply to your personal games, the other half isn't thereby invalidated. On the contrary; I usually find it insightful and useful, despite the clipped tone.
C'mon guys don't pick on the poster.+1. Look at it this way: even if half of what he says doesn't apply to your personal games, the other half isn't thereby invalidated. On the contrary; I usually find it insightful and useful, despite the clipped tone.
Not only that, but it does nothing for the debate to make snarky comments about a poster rather than arguing the post itself, making it stand on it's own merit, regardless of the source.
And if you find that you're seeing the same old rhetoric from a specific person, don't respond to it.I'm kinda seeing the light myself on this point.
I removed a post that used unacceptable language.
I was being partially serious.
The Rogue sneaks past the dog because it's thematically appropriate? Why have a dog?