And then you remember that it gets large bonuses for being able to smell you, and while technically not an auto win, it is for all practical purposes. The dog starts barking (or cat meowing, whatever). The Rogue gets slaughtered, being as he has the worst defenses in the game, is away from his party, and has just entered into a D&D combat, which being a D&D combat is fast and lethal.
And then you remember this check happens per dog (or cat, or whatever) every guard animal. There is likely more than one guard animal. Even at very low levels. So even if you somehow luck out and avoid the first near auto exposure, you then have to get past the second dog, and then the third, and so forth.
Every area that 1st level players want to scout has multiple guard dogs? Come on now. That ranks pretty high on the BS meter, don't you think? If that were the case it would be an example of a GM trying very hard to make sure Stealth doesn't succeed.
And housecats are irrelevant. There is a reason no one has guard cats. A dog, descended from pack hunters, instinctively barks to let his masters/the rest of his pack know of an approaching threat/prey and start the hunt. A cat, descended from solitary stealth hunters, instinctively goes stealthy itself and either stalks or runs and hides, whichever is most appropriate to the situation.
For an animal to be successful as a guard, it has to not only be capable of detecting the threat, but must instinctively or by training react appropriately to that threat, and the humanoids it is working with must be able to interpret that reaction correctly. Most animals are not good guard creatures because they fail in those second and third areas. They can detect the intruder but are unable to reliably alert the two-legs of the approaching danger.
And then you remember that it gets large bonuses for being able to smell you, and while technically not an auto win, it is for all practical purposes.If you are level 1 through 4, you can't do a stealth run anyways, as you lack the actual abilities to do that. Even something like a housecat (or any animal with Scent, but housecats are a classic) completely shuts you down.Again, you resort to assertions of fallacies.
At level 1, a Stealth score of 8 is easily achievable. Given a dog's perception score of +8 (assuming it's a guard dog, not a guard cat), that gives a good thief a 50/50 chance of getting past the guard dog - better if he thinks to bring a sedative wrapped in bacon. The dog has not just to sense you, he has to alert humans you are around, so you only have to sneak close enough to toss the drugged meat to the dog or slide it under the door.
I've done loads of stealth runs at 1st level. They aren't that hard as long as you aren't trying to steal the crown jewels.
Only looking up the rules on scent, it doesn't. The 'scent' ability only gives a bonus to Survival when tracking. Once again your argument is made of wrong.
Basically your guard dog is more use against the wizard sneaking around invisible with no stealth score than the rogue that has maxed out stealth, because scent isn't effected by invisibility.
And then you remember this check happens per dog (or cat, or whatever) every guard animal. There is likely more than one guard animal. Even at very low levels. So even if you somehow luck out and avoid the first near auto exposure, you then have to get past the second dog, and then the third, and so forth.
Why would there be more than one? Just because your DM usually 'takes 20' on guard animals and then racks in CR4 encounters for 1st level parties doesn't mean every DM has to. Guard dogs are expensive, so they use the minimum they require.
Every area that 1st level players want to scout has multiple guard dogs? Come on now. That ranks pretty high on the BS meter, don't you think? If that were the case it would be an example of a GM trying very hard to make sure Stealth doesn't succeed.Perhaps you don't have multiple encounters per day. Despite certain lying claims to the contrary, we do. And that means guard dogs, and guard guards placed at various points. The cat was mostly for the humor of being defeated like a Commoner. It wasn't meant to be serious. Though a cat could be trained to meow or hiss at intruders.
Also, there's some manner of alarm post in multiple, easy to reach places. Give any guard a turn and they hit the gong (or whatever), and then the whole place comes down on your head. Vs any actual competent guard, the Rogue is That Guy who is responsible for blowing stealth.
Certainly there will be some well-guarded places, and some that are not so well-guarded. Sometimes the scout will succeed and sometimes he won't. Sometimes what he gains by using stealth will be worth the risk and sometimes it won't. That's the nature of a well-balanced game. Everyone has a chance to do what they do best and shine, and probably everyone has a few encounters when their contribution is marginal to team success.
All I'm saying is: if at 1st level all or most of the encounters are designed in such a way that a competent rogue has little to no chance of succeeding with Stealth, then the adventure is poorly designed. Either in the sense that the encounter is too difficult overall, or because it was specifically designed to thwart the rogue and keep him from contributing.
Every area that 1st level players want to scout has multiple guard dogs? Come on now. That ranks pretty high on the BS meter, don't you think? If that were the case it would be an example of a GM trying very hard to make sure Stealth doesn't succeed.Perhaps you don't have multiple encounters per day. Despite certain lying claims to the contrary, we do. And that means guard dogs, and guard guards placed at various points. The cat was mostly for the humor of being defeated like a Commoner. It wasn't meant to be serious. Though a cat could be trained to meow or hiss at intruders.
Also, there's some manner of alarm post in multiple, easy to reach places. Give any guard a turn and they hit the gong (or whatever), and then the whole place comes down on your head. Vs any actual competent guard, the Rogue is That Guy who is responsible for blowing stealth.
Certainly there will be some well-guarded places, and some that are not so well-guarded. Sometimes the scout will succeed and sometimes he won't. Sometimes what he gains by using stealth will be worth the risk and sometimes it won't. That's the nature of a well-balanced game. Everyone has a chance to do what they do best and shine, and probably everyone has a few encounters when their contribution is marginal to team success.
All I'm saying is: if at 1st level all or most of the encounters are designed in such a way that a competent rogue has little to no chance of succeeding with Stealth, then the adventure is poorly designed. Either in the sense that the encounter is too difficult overall, or because it was specifically designed to thwart the rogue and keep him from contributing.
So, Serpent Skull is poorly designed? Because just about everything spots our scout, and only the elf ranger in his favored terrain and the rogue with the +5 goggles has a chance to beat perception DCs.
So, Serpent Skull is poorly designed? Because just about everything spots our scout, and only the elf ranger in his favored terrain and the rogue with the +5 goggles has a chance to beat perception DCs.
You have me at a disadvantage, as I don't own and haven't read Serpent's Skull, so can't intelligently comment on it specifically. Nor do I know the builds of your characters and how good they are at Stealth. Or in what situations you are trying to use Stealth.
Since you seem to be playing it rather than DMing, you probably haven't read Serpent's Skull either, so there may be factors that you aren't aware of that are leading to your Stealth failures. Or you've just had a run of bad luck. It happens.
Those caveats aside, I stick to my point. If an adventure is designed in such a way that Stealth doesn't have a reasonable chance of success in a reasonable number of encounters, it is poorly designed, in my opinion, because it is unfairly stacked against a major character class, depriving it of one of it's prime functions.
So, Serpent Skull is poorly designed? Because just about everything spots our scout, and only the elf ranger in his favored terrain and the rogue with the +5 goggles has a chance to beat perception DCs.You have me at a disadvantage, as I don't own and haven't read Serpent's Skull, so can't intelligently comment on it specifically. Nor do I know the builds of your characters and how good they are at Stealth. Or in what situations you are trying to use Stealth.
Since you seem to be playing it rather than DMing, you probably haven't read Serpent's Skull either, so there may be factors that you aren't aware of that are leading to your Stealth failures. Or you've just had a run of bad luck. It happens.
Those caveats aside, I stick to my point. If an adventure is designed in such a way that Stealth doesn't have a reasonable chance of success in a reasonable number of encounters, it is poorly designed, in my opinion, because it is unfairly stacked against a major character class, depriving it of one of it's prime functions.
I called BS on it, for the same reasons as you do. My wife plays the rogue, and she felt utterly useless. So, according to the GM, the reason we fail 9/10 scouting type checks is that the opposition is tons of animals and monstrous races that get +8 to stealth AND perception, on top of scent.
You know, like lots of guard dogs.
So, Serpent Skull is poorly designed? Because just about everything spots our scout, and only the elf ranger in his favored terrain and the rogue with the +5 goggles has a chance to beat perception DCs.You have me at a disadvantage, as I don't own and haven't read Serpent's Skull, so can't intelligently comment on it specifically. Nor do I know the builds of your characters and how good they are at Stealth. Or in what situations you are trying to use Stealth.
Since you seem to be playing it rather than DMing, you probably haven't read Serpent's Skull either, so there may be factors that you aren't aware of that are leading to your Stealth failures. Or you've just had a run of bad luck. It happens.
Those caveats aside, I stick to my point. If an adventure is designed in such a way that Stealth doesn't have a reasonable chance of success in a reasonable number of encounters, it is poorly designed, in my opinion, because it is unfairly stacked against a major character class, depriving it of one of it's prime functions.
I called BS on it, for the same reasons as you do. My wife plays the rogue, and she felt utterly useless. So, according to the GM, the reason we fail 9/10 scouting type checks is that the opposition is tons of animals and monstrous races that get +8 to stealth AND perception, on top of scent.
You know, like lots of guard dogs.
You know your own campaign better than I do, and I will not pass judgment on it or the way it is played or DMed because you have much better info than I.
But, yeah, if you have a competently built and played rogue that is failing 9 out of 10 Stealth checks consistently throughout an entire adventure path, it is poorly designed. Or should come with a warning to players to be careful about playing rogues because Stealth has been marginalized by the designer's choice of opposition. I'm not saying that is the case with Serpent's Skull as I haven't run it or read it, but if the information you present based on your limited player's eye view of the campaign is accurate, and if your DM is running it fairly, then that would be my judgment.
I would say the same thing if 9 out of 10 encounters were immune to magic, or 9 out of 10 had damage resistance that made a fighter useless.
So, Serpent Skull is poorly designed? Because just about everything spots our scout, and only the elf ranger in his favored terrain and the rogue with the +5 goggles has a chance to beat perception DCs.You have me at a disadvantage, as I don't own and haven't read Serpent's Skull, so can't intelligently comment on it specifically. Nor do I know the builds of your characters and how good they are at Stealth. Or in what situations you are trying to use Stealth.
Since you seem to be playing it rather than DMing, you probably haven't read Serpent's Skull either, so there may be factors that you aren't aware of that are leading to your Stealth failures. Or you've just had a run of bad luck. It happens.
Those caveats aside, I stick to my point. If an adventure is designed in such a way that Stealth doesn't have a reasonable chance of success in a reasonable number of encounters, it is poorly designed, in my opinion, because it is unfairly stacked against a major character class, depriving it of one of it's prime functions.
I called BS on it, for the same reasons as you do. My wife plays the rogue, and she felt utterly useless. So, according to the GM, the reason we fail 9/10 scouting type checks is that the opposition is tons of animals and monstrous races that get +8 to stealth AND perception, on top of scent.
You know, like lots of guard dogs.
You know your own campaign better than I do, and I will not pass judgment on it or the way it is played or DMed because you have much better info than I.
But, yeah, if you have a competently built and played rogue that is failing 9 out of 10 Stealth checks consistently throughout an entire adventure path, it is poorly designed. Or should come with a warning to players to be careful about playing rogues because Stealth has been marginalized by the designer's choice of opposition. I'm not saying that is the case with Serpent's Skull as I haven't run it or...
I have not read it either, but from what I have seen with other complaints, its not uncommon for the stealthed scout to walk straight past the monster with neither of them seeing eachother. And I heard this mostly as a complaint about the 1st part of the AP.
Or should come with a warning to players to be careful about playing rogues because Stealth has been marginalized by the designer's choice of opposition.
I also haven't played or read Serpent's Skull, but my possibly very incorrect read is that stealth is disproportionately bad (relative to an "average" adventure path) but trapfinding is disproportionately good (same criteria).
So maybe it comes down to what kind of rogue you want to play, or what you want out of a rogue?
Or should come with a warning to players to be careful about playing rogues because Stealth has been marginalized by the designer's choice of opposition.I also haven't played or read Serpent's Skull, but my possibly very incorrect read is that stealth is disproportionately bad (relative to an "average" adventure path) but trapfinding is disproportionately good (same criteria).
So maybe it comes down to what kind of rogue you want to play, or what you want out of a rogue?
A superior ability to find traps is quite handy. We have been saved from several "embarrassing situations" by the rogue's Trap Spotting talent, which I almost consider invaluable, because the traps are often very cleverly set.
Stealth is garbage, because part 1 and especially part 2 has more difficult terrain and visibility problems than I have seen across the careers of my last five characters combined. Across almost 7 levels, we have been able to successfully scout ONCE.
Perception is do or die. Either you max it and get goggles and preferably racial/feat bonuses, or you can ignore it. Hardly anything below 25, and often up in the mid 30s already before level 5. But as I have already mentioned, trap-finding is a must-have, so go go go here.
Lots of grappling animals, snakes and gods know what, so if you can get it really high, Escape Artist will pay off.
Climb and Swim have shown to be very useful.
Acrobatics MIGHT be useful, if you get an ability to circumvent being bogged down by terrain, you might be able to use it in combat. A few places where it is useful to have, but not monstrously hard.
D&D is a team game. Team games mean that sometimes you need to bend over and take one for the team.
Of course, if that happens every time and you get the feeling that your party-mates are abusing your team spirit and good will, well ... change the party-mates !
What happens when you become ther party B$%# and are always forced to play what the group wants you to while they play whatever they damn well please?
I don't mind occasionally filling a role when the group wants me to, but I refuse to forced to always play the cleric because the rest of my group thinks clerics are boring.
Removed a post.
Your strawmen aside, there's more than one because guard dogs are cheap, even by level 1 standards, are as strong or stronger than level 1 characters, and can also guard things. There are also multiple encounters in a day, because to do otherwise is just foolish.Why would there be more than one? Just because your DM usually 'takes 20' on guard animals and then racks in CR4 encounters for 1st level parties doesn't mean every DM has to. Guard dogs are expensive, so they use the minimum they require.
Yet I use the tactics in actual games ... and this doesn't happen. Strawmen is what you keep coming up with, like claiming there will be as many dogs as it takes to detect the sneaker - it's just BS. Indeed, they are MORE LIKELY to detect the invisible mage than the non-invisible rogue. All your argument means is that your own spells-only-solution is bunk.
Sure there are multiple encounters a day, but why would every one of them be optimised to detect sneaking rogues?
Rogue sneaks in, drugs dog/knocks out guard. Rogue then opens door for rest of party. Party file in, rogue locks door behind them. Party are now on the inside ready to deal with next encounter, and no-one knows they are there. This is what happens in an actual game, although unlike you I accept that experiences may differ.
Your strawmen aside, there's more than one because guard dogs are cheap, even by level 1 standards, are as strong or stronger than level 1 characters, and can also guard things. There are also multiple encounters in a day, because to do otherwise is just foolish.Why would there be more than one? Just because your DM usually 'takes 20' on guard animals and then racks in CR4 encounters for 1st level parties doesn't mean every DM has to. Guard dogs are expensive, so they use the minimum they require.
Yet I use the tactics in actual games ... and this doesn't happen. Strawmen is what you keep coming up with, like claiming there will be as many dogs as it takes to detect the sneaker - it's just BS. Indeed, they are MORE LIKELY to detect the invisible mage than the non-invisible rogue. All your argument means is that your own spells-only-solution is bunk.
Sure there are multiple encounters a day, but why would every one of them be optimised to detect sneaking rogues?
Rogue sneaks in, drugs dog/knocks out guard. Rogue then opens door for rest of party. Party file in, rogue locks door behind them. Party are now on the inside ready to deal with next encounter, and no-one knows they are there. This is what happens in an actual game, although unlike you I accept that experiences may differ.
I'm sure there are ways to cover your scent, mask your scent, or otherwise distract the dogs, using their ability to smell.
There is a first level spell called Negate Aroma. It's in the APG. Wizard brings a 50gp potion for his stealth-run, and magic wins again.
There is no mundane way that I know of that counters the effect of scent. Drugging the dog can be done, but then you have an unconscious dog for the guards to find.
There is a reason there is tons of wizard BBEG, and not even ONE rogue.
There is a first level spell called Negate Aroma. It's in the APG. Wizard brings a 50gp potion for his stealth-run, and magic wins again.
There is no mundane way that I know of that counters the effect of scent. Drugging the dog can be done, but then you have an unconscious dog for the guards to find.
There is a reason there is tons of wizard BBEG, and not even ONE rogue.
Just played a session where my dog (Hound Archon in disguise) had a +14 to Scent/Perception, and thus ruled the game as he tracked the bad guy by scent until the guy took a flying leap off of the nearby pier and swam away. We had to backtrack to a list of likely hideout locations until the dog was able to pick up the scent again.
If it wasn't for the per-round duration I'd recommend every Conjurer keeping a Dog out for the scent ability. Scent beats most concealment, beats Invisibility, and enables you to track the bad guy in the dungeon when they flee down a corridor.
Putting this thread back on track, if scent breaks the module you could find yourself getting pressured by the other players into having a dog companion or familiar just for the scent ability. Forced to play a Ranger with a Dog companion for the double Track feat with Scent ability? There are worse things, I guess.
What, exactly, is a "guard dog?"
I removed a couple posts. If you cannot post civilly, and respectfully, don't post.
There is a first level spell called Negate Aroma. It's in the APG. Wizard brings a 50gp potion for his stealth-run, and magic wins again.
Really? Didn't know about that one. Now all you have to do is make sure he cannot hear you either. You could use a Silence spell, but then you cannot hear anything yourself.
There is no mundane way that I know of that counters the effect of scent. Drugging the dog can be done, but then you have an unconscious dog for the guards to find.
Nah, the dog's just dozed off - it'll wake up and bark if anything happens (as anyone with a dog can tell you). There are a few ways of countering scent, one of the best is approach from downwind and you can get a lot closer than otherwise. If you are being tracked by scent, black pepper won't hide your scent but it will certainly put the dogs off it a while.
There is a reason there is tons of wizard BBEG, and not even ONE rogue.
Sure, wizards make great BBEGs. However, this does not mean rogues are 'useless' and 'skills don't count'. They do.
If the Rogue has to approach a single locked door with a trained guard dog and a guard holding a loud gong on the other side, he's screwed before he can even roll for picking the lock.
Rogues DON'T have to do this. Play the rogue as a ninja - throw the bacon-wrapped drugged chew toy over the wall, wait several minutes to jump over the wall just as the full moon goes behind a cloud, run silently past the drugged-out dogs, and enter the house through a second-story window that's been opened for the cool night air.
If you're the rogue leading the party down a narrow corridor in the dungeon and you get to the door above with a guard dog behind it, then it's not your job to open that door. It's time for the Cleric to shine by casting Silence, followed by the Fighter using a really big bludgeoning weapon on the door. The Sorcerer or Wizard stands by with a Fireball to take out the dog and the guard as soon as the door is down.
Don't be forced into roles, and that includes roles created by a GM's thinking. Think outside the box, break that encounter, and live to adventure another day.
I removed one of the posts removed earlier that was reposted.
I removed one of the posts removed earlier that was reposted.
Anyone else reminded of the opening credits of Monty Python - Quest for the Holy Grail?
jhpace1: In my experience, the best stealth-type is a character that blends magic and mundane. Nicorai Pitwalker, my tiefling Arcane Trickster, had many successful sneaky moments under his belt in our old planescape campaign, but the most memorable would be at high level, when he snuck into a demon lord's fortress in the abyss, with the whole party hidden in a portable hole.
Wizard > Rogue, but Rogue + Wizard = best.
Or should come with a warning to players to be careful about playing rogues because Stealth has been marginalized by the designer's choice of opposition.I also haven't played or read Serpent's Skull, but my possibly very incorrect read is that stealth is disproportionately bad (relative to an "average" adventure path) but trapfinding is disproportionately good (same criteria).
So maybe it comes down to what kind of rogue you want to play, or what you want out of a rogue?
I have to say this is kind of amusing that we (me being the first offender and most guilty) all sit here and opine about an AP we haven't read or played. Only on the Internet. :)
As I said, they made it very clear that everything follows a script like this one:
If IsSolutionSpell = 1
Then WinEncounter = Yeselse LoseEncounter = Yes
end sub
It is amazing anyone has any fun at all.
If the Rogue has to approach a single locked door with a trained guard dog and a guard holding a loud gong on the other side, he's screwed before he can even roll for picking the lock.
Rogues DON'T have to do this. Play the rogue as a ninja - throw the bacon-wrapped drugged chew toy over the wall, wait several minutes to jump over the wall just as the full moon goes behind a cloud, run silently past the drugged-out dogs, and enter the house through a second-story window that's been opened for the cool night air.
If you're the rogue leading the party down a narrow corridor in the dungeon and you get to the door above with a guard dog behind it, then it's not your job to open that door. It's time for the Cleric to shine by casting Silence, followed by the Fighter using a really big bludgeoning weapon on the door. The Sorcerer or Wizard stands by with a Fireball to take out the dog and the guard as soon as the door is down.
Don't be forced into roles, and that includes roles created by a GM's thinking. Think outside the box, break that encounter, and live to adventure another day.
Who says the guard is on the other side? Sound travels. And if that guard ever gets a single action between detection of threat and his demise that sound will travel far. Gongs are LOUD, you see.
And who says there's a wall there? You're using convenient fiat to nerf the encounter, and the competence thereof. You're also still assuming blatantly overpriced ineffective consumables, in which case I bring expensive consumables that actually do their job into it, and still win. You're also assuming a much higher level than the actual example. Just look at those goalposts go!
Of course why are first level parties facing packs of riding dogs and guards (NPC Warriors?) who all wield gongs?
I removed some posts. If you would like an explanation for why material you posted was removed, please feel free to email me. My email address is listed on the "Contact Us" page, or on my profile.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone that trolls thrive on attention, negative or otherwise. Attempting to prove that they are incorrect, or that you know they are a troll, only encourages them to continue.
Instead, simply pretend the post isn't there. If it violates our messageboard rules, please flag it. Don't call them out. Don't tell them you're going to ignore them. Just continue the conversation as if there were not there, just like a child throwing a tantrum.
Thank you for making the Paizo messageboards a more friendly and civil place.
Who said the dogs were in packs? I said multiple sure, but not all at once.Who says the guards are wielding gongs? You know you can post them somewhere nearby, and give people instructions to smack them if there's a problem right?
Apparently being facetious is impossible here.
Point: Your scenario is just as arbitrary and contrived as his.
And you know that even a team of one guy, and one dog, which is as low level as it gets and is not at all a hard encounter for a level 1 party
Did the encounter system change in pathfinder? 1 guy and a riding dog is at least a CR1 encounter.
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Don't be forced into roles, and that includes roles created by a GM's thinking. Think outside the box, break that encounter, and live to adventure another day.+1
Well said!
+ 2
The DM presents a challenge, the party solves it. Sometimes a guard dog is a problem, sometimes it is a way to distract the guards from the. Group sneaking in from the other side, or to lure the guards out into a trap, etc...
If you only see one solution to problems, have fun with that.