Distance works the same as with movement:
When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.
Since the second diagonal would be 15 feet away from you (as per 1 square = 5 ft.), you wouldn't be able to hit it with a reach weapon or with natural reach. In other words, unless you have the Polearm Master Fighter's ability, you can't hit diagonal enemies.
Which requires (IMO) some house-ruling, because RAW you can step diagonally at a polearm and not provoke. To give an example:
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MXXXO
XOOOX
XOPOX
XOOOX
OXXXO
P is a guy with a polearm, M is a monster that is in the middle of its movement, and the X's are the squares that P threatens, RAW. In this situation, M can move towards P and not provoke an attack of opportunity (never entering a threatened square, much less leaving one) which logically does not make sense.
My house rule is that straight diagonals count as not threatened for the purpose of making attacks, but count as threatened for the purpose of taking attacks of opportunity against enemies leaving those squares.
Ok, so a monster has reach, and is trying to hit an opponent that is 2 diagonal squares away from him. Can he do it? Please back up with RAW quotes.
Yes he can. There is an image of this on page 308 of the 3.5 DMG. There is nothing in the wording between 3.5 and Pathfinder that shows any changes.
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Ok, so a monster has reach, and is trying to hit an opponent that is 2 diagonal squares away from him. Can he do it? Please back up with RAW quotes.Yes he can. There is an image of this on page 308 of the 3.5 DMG. There is nothing in the wording between 3.5 and Pathfinder that shows any changes.
There is no difference between the 3.5 SRD and PF on this, but there is difference between the 3.5 PHB and PF on this.
All passages include the following under Attacks of Opportunity, subheader threatened squares: "However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more." (CRB p. 180)
The PHB also continues: "For instance, a longspear-wielding human threatens all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)" (3.5 PHB, p. 136).
Likewise, d20srd.org adds: "Note: Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)" (link)
There is no PF errata or PF FAQ on this.
The continuation of the PHB passage is not in the SRD and is not Open Game Content. The nature is to explain an otherwise ambiguous passage that otherwise creatues illogical results that depend on the orientation of the grid. In extending 3.5 from the OGC of the SRD, PF did not generally provide substitute language for these helpful non-OGC passages.
Player philosophy regarding PF as a continuation of 3.5, and whether this means SRD 3.5 or D&D 3.5, will influence individual DM interpretations of the RAW. Including reach of 2 full squares for all medium sized creatures with reach will provide the greatest degree of continuity with the expeience of most 3.5 players, if that is a goal.
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Simple fix. Use a hex grid and all of these problems go away. The only awkward thing about it is drawing out square and rectangular rooms and buildings for a DM, literally everything else is functionally superior.
When I run games I like to use the hex side of my mat for such reasons. Simplifies a whole world of things. When playing I find that DMs normally ignore the movement count rule. Many people just get confused when trying to move their characters.
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I still use the special rule for diagonal reach - didn't notice that it's gone. I guess it's an oversight.
I tried using hex grid, but my players are whiny little girls so I had to change it back (And, if you read this, my players: YES! WHINY! LITTLE! GIRLS! :P)
10' reach -- and only 10' reach -- ignored the diagonal measurement rule because that produced a false safe zone in the reach. Logically, if a creature has 10' of reach and you have to be within 5' to attack it, you're going to get whacked before you can get close enough. If you obey the diagonal measurements to the letter, though, there's a hole at the corners where you can magically teleport from 15' away to 5' away without provoking an AoO. That was fixed by the simple expedient of not shaving the corners on the diagram for 10' reach.
I assert that Pathfinder did not intentionally change that; the "change" is simply a result of the omission of the reach diagram for space reasons.
10' reach -- and only 10' reach -- ignored the diagonal measurement rule because that produced a false safe zone in the reach. Logically, if a creature has 10' of reach and you have to be within 5' to attack it, you're going to get whacked before you can get close enough. If you obey the diagonal measurements to the letter, though, there's a hole at the corners where you can magically teleport from 15' away to 5' away without provoking an AoO. That was fixed by the simple expedient of not shaving the corners on the diagram for 10' reach.
I assert that Pathfinder did not intentionally change that; the "change" is simply a result of the omission of the reach diagram for space reasons.
+1
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A creature with 10 foot reach threatens things diagonally two spaces away from them.
This is contrary to the way measuring diagonals normally works in Pathfinder, but without this exception, it becomes possible to approach a creature with 10 foot reach without threatening an AoO merely by coming in on a diagonal, which frankly doesn't make any sense.
I don't remember if this applies to reach greater than 10 feet.
Oops. Well, it looks like the Ogre I threw at my PCs got thrashed for a reason, then. It seems to be a pretty big oversight, it's definitely a rule that should be in the Core Rulebook. It's not even in the Bestiary's natural reach descriptor, if I'm correct.
Oops. Well, it looks like the Ogre I threw at my PCs got thrashed for a reason, then. It seems to be a pretty big oversight, it's definitely a rule that should be in the Core Rulebook. It's not even in the Bestiary's natural reach descriptor, if I'm correct.
It is in the core book. It is just one of those things that is hard to catch. It was quoted earlier up in this thread.
Oops. Well, it looks like the Ogre I threw at my PCs got thrashed for a reason, then. It seems to be a pretty big oversight, it's definitely a rule that should be in the Core Rulebook. It's not even in the Bestiary's natural reach descriptor, if I'm correct.It is in the core book. It is just one of those things that is hard to catch. It was quoted earlier up in this thread.
I am referring to the rule that says a creature with 10 ft. of reach threatens squares that are two diagonals away - none of the quotes above indicate that mechanic in the Core rulebook. I suppose it can be houseruled with the d20srd passage, but I meant that I would like to see an adaption of it in Pathfinder so that it is made clear without external resources. Not that I'm against it to begin with, I just try to avoid houserules whenever I can.
This may help.
This post (although the title suggests otherwise) goes deep into the reach of weapons and threatened squares towards the bottom of the page.
Reference Step up with a reach weapon
It covers RAW, RAI, and options to use. Personally I believe this thread to cover any and all questions regarding reach and threatening. I used it when this question first plagued my thoughts and have never had any other questions; very valid points were raised, discussed and resolved.
Which requires (IMO) some house-ruling, because RAW you can step diagonally at a polearm and not provoke. To give an
Yes, and is one of the most glaringly retarded hiccups in the rules, if I say so myself. Just make reach ignore the diagonal movement rules. It's the only sane solution.
A creature with 10 foot reach threatens things diagonally two spaces away from them.
This is contrary to the way measuring diagonals normally works in Pathfinder, but without this exception, it becomes possible to approach a creature with 10 foot reach without threatening an AoO merely by coming in on a diagonal, which frankly doesn't make any sense.
I don't remember if this applies to reach greater than 10 feet.
It does not. Nor does it apply to reach weapons unfortunately.
Oops. Well, it looks like the Ogre I threw at my PCs got thrashed for a reason, then. It seems to be a pretty big oversight, it's definitely a rule that should be in the Core Rulebook. It's not even in the Bestiary's natural reach descriptor, if I'm correct.It is in the core book. It is just one of those things that is hard to catch. It was quoted earlier up in this thread.
I thought it was in the book. Now I can't find it. I guess I will suggest it for errata with an FAQ if I can't find it in the next 5 minutes.
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A creature with 10 foot reach threatens things diagonally two spaces away from them.
This is contrary to the way measuring diagonals normally works in Pathfinder, but without this exception, it becomes possible to approach a creature with 10 foot reach without threatening an AoO merely by coming in on a diagonal, which frankly doesn't make any sense.
I don't remember if this applies to reach greater than 10 feet.
I am only FAQ'ing this so it can be changed. I figure if Pathfinder is going to be its own game I should not have to look at 3.5 books for clarification.
I wonder if it wouldn't be more streamlined just to ignore the diagonal distance rules for movement and reach (make diagonals count the same as laterals) via houserule. Less math, more fun. Keep them for AoE for spells and whatnot. Any glaring, game breaking flaws in that plan I'm missing?IMHO, doing so virtually eliminates the needs for tactical positioning and planing, and furthermore, thinking. To me its like playing chess and saying my bishop can slide through my pawns your pawns the rook, and your queen, so checkmate cuz your king is in the line of fire.
This is actually one of my major hang-ups with 4th edition, which i quit after a mere 5months and haven't played since.
Im regards to wraith strike's comment, i agree, but it is still an nice way to solve problems like this at the table without anyone feeling the Gm is cheating the out of their due.
Lastly, is Short Haft still a feat in pathfinder, cuz then we could say just take that instead of step up, and eliminate the need for this whole discussion.
Short Haft is not OGL so it can't be brought over until the name is changed. How would short haft allow you to attack at angles assuming a DM plays RAW, not RAI? There is a similar ability in the APG, but I don't remember if it is a feat or variant feature of one of the archetypes.
edit:The ability is a class feature, not a feat.
Short Haft is not OGL so it can't be brought over until the name is changed. How would short haft allow you to attack at angles assuming a DM plays RAW, not RAI? There is a similar ability in the APG, but I don't remember if it is a feat or variant feature of one of the archetypes.
edit:The ability is a class feature, not a feat.
Yeah, the 2nd level Polearm Master Fighter could shorten his grip on any polearm or spear as an immediate action, albeit with a -2 penalty on attack rolls. Quite the nasty ability IMHO, since you can essentially change your threatened area whenever you want to.
Just to clarify, can you "interrupt" an opponent's turn with an immediate action?
Just to clarify, can you "interrupt" an opponent's turn with an immediate action?
Yup - but then it counts as your swift action for your next turn. So, you can still only do it once per round.
To WS ) short half would allow you to base the caster, so if he moves 5 foot step, he is still in range. Honestly though, i didn't check up the exact wording of the rules, so maybe this wouldn't work cuz it takes some sort of action to switch from your long reach to your short reach
To Maho ) my understanding is you can use an immediate at any time, even to interrupt another immediate, but i might be carrying over from 3.x again, may need to check up on that later, but it's honestly never come up at the table.
To tem ) in most situations, i would happily give up my swift to lock down the enemy caster, its just good tactics.
Fred the fighter = Ready action- attack the caster when he casts
Kat the caster = 5 foot step out of melée range.
Fred = immediate action - short haft feat, my weapon now has reach.
Kat = sad face :-(
IIRC, you can 5-foot step as part of a Readied action anyway. You don't need to combine an Immediate and Readied action to pull that off : )
IIRC, you can 5-foot step as part of a Readied action anyway. You don't need to combine an Immediate and Readied action to pull that off : )
Unless you moved that turn to get in melee range with the Wizard and prevent casting. No 5' step if you've already moved in the round. :)