I started playing tabletop RPGs with Pathfinder so I never knew what psionics were. Can someone explain the system to me and why it's controversial?
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It's a system that replaces the concepts of spell-casting slots with "points".
Instead of having four 1st level per day spells, four 2nd level per day spells, and so on, you just have a pool of, say, 16 points.
Example:
1st level effects cost 1 point.
2nd level effects cost 3 points.
Some 1st level effects can be "augmented" by paying more points, and increased in power in that way.
The controversy comes because, on its surface, it seems more powerful, despite the fact that, in practice, it is not.
EDIT: This is the highly debated part. There are many, many arguments about this, so bear in mind that, although I say it's not (because, in all of my experience and in all theory crafting I've seen put to paper, it does not prove more powerful), but others insist that, in their experience, it is. I suspect an error or other weird effect is in play, but, of course, not being there, I can't say.
I'll get to it more in just a second, but I'm posting this basic idea first.
Fluff is that it's powers of the mind, or an internal source of power instead of manipulating an external force, like magic does.
Fluff is that it's powers of the mind, or an internal source of power instead of manipulating an external force, like magic does.
Also correct!
(Still working on how to explain things.)
Alright I was mostly wondering because of Occult Adventures coming out. If psionics works how I think it does...well let's just say there's gonna be an aasimar or two slamming people against walls with their mind XD
Evil people that is :)
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Psionics (by Dreamscarred Press)
^ That is Pathfinder psionics.
A bit of an introduction.
In older editions, psionics was conceived of as a thing kind of like psychic mutant powers ala X-Men.
They were originally an optional system that randomly gave some individuals different kinds of random power.
It had no balance, was entirely arbitrary and random (any given PC may or may not have had psionic power, and how much they had varied, even if they all had power - which was unlikely), and, in general made little sense to have as a system.
Skip a few editions to 3E (the first d20 system).
3E attempted, fairly admirably, to take the earlier ideas and codify them into classes that function well internally.
The problem is that these just don't work. It was broken in every way possible: the powers were fewer than the spells (but lacked the Augmentation ability in current psionics), psions knew fewer and had fewer powers. The powers they did have weren't balanced with each other or magic. Combat became a rock/paper/scissors+save v. stun (unless you're a psion in which case it's rock/paper/scissors+save v. ability loss), which, you know, sucks. It also sucked because it used all six stats as casting stats (dependent upon the discipline you chose as a psion).
Brilliant, but flawed.
Then 3.5 came out with the terribly named Expanded Psionics Handbook: terribly named because it wasn't 'expanded' from anything; it was a complete work in and of itself, and it entirely overhauled the system to remove the major flaws and broken elements from the system.
What's more, while there were broken elements, there were far, far fewer broken elements that the basic Player's Handbook (like the 3.5 version of the Core Rulebook for Pathfinder), in either the martial or the magic arenas (in fact, fewer in psionics as a whole compared to any individual category of: martial characters, divine casters, or arcane casters).
The pattern in 3.5 has, to all indications, continued in Pathfinder.
There are many debates (this is the thread I started from before as just one example), but I cannot find anything over-all more balanced and more nuanced than that system.
I haven't read the entire thread - at one point, I got busy with life and kind of forgot (sorry any who were participating and expected me back!) - so, tread with care. :)
Hope this helps!
Alright I was mostly wondering because of Occult Adventures coming out.
Ah.
Occult Adventures isn't psionics, despite the name of that one thread.
In style, tone, fluff, and mechanics, from all indications, it's going to be very different.
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I think a lot of people say psionics aren't balanced because they either had experience with 2nd edition psionics (not sure if 1st or basic had any), or insisted on playing (and the DM agreed to) with psionics being different than magic (as in spell resistance, antimagic field, etc didn't affect psionics, thus nullifying a lot of defenses) instead of them being interchangeable (psionics not working with antimagic field, etc).
Also, the whole power points vs spell slots, and from my understanding, the whole "nova" thing sprung from people using their entire power point pool on their highest level powers to easily nuke anything in their path.
And Tacticslion is right about Occult Adventures. It isn't really psionics, and is more "psychic magic", as it goes with spell slots per day. Dreamscarred Press has the actual psionics for Pathfinder.
Yes bad and slightly misapplied experiences can make someone sour on any system.
Because psionics is juuuuust different "enough" it seems a lot of GMs weren't as familiar with it as they thought, or accepted something the player wanted to do instead of the way it was intended or something, creating a negative image.
And in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, it was in no way balanced at all.
In 3.5 and PF, it was marvelously balanced.
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A brief history of Psionics in the Dungeons & Dragons family of games...
As I'm sure you know, Dungeons and Dragons was first published in 1974. It started out as supplemnent for the medieval miniatures wargame Chainmail, where each miniature represented a single character rather than the typical unit. As the game progressed, it became heavily influenced by the fantasy literature of the 1960s and '70s, especially Tolkein's Middle-Earth series, but also Jack Vance's The Dying Earth, Michael Moorcock's Elric Saga, Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser, Roger Zelazny's Chronicles of Amber, etc.
The late 1960s and '70s were also the heyday of the parapsychology movement, where science seriously examined claims of psychic paranormal phenomena such as extra-sensory perception ("ESP"), precognition, telekinesis, reincarnation, mental telepathy, memories of past lives, etc. Parapsychologists referred to such paranormal psychic phenomema as "psi." (Note: Parapsychology died out as a serious branch of scientific inquiry in the late 1970s/early '80s, due to general lack of any experimental results.)
The term "psionics" was coined in 1952 by science fiction writer Jack Williamson, merging the terms "psychic" and "electronics." The term was adopted by a few actual practicing parapsychologists of the day, attempting to separate their line of scientific inquiry from the common parlance of the term "psychic," which even at the time had connotations of fraud or hucksterism. (The term "psionics" never really gained all that much traction among parapsychologists or the general public. The general term used was "ESP.")
This line of inquiry into psychic phenomena as something potentially real entered the zeitgeist of the 1970s. Many popular works of entertainment (books, film, TV) used psychic phenomena as their themes. Most of these were set present-day or in a futuristic setting. (e.g. Carrie by Stephen King, Crystal Singer by Anne McCaffery, various plotlines from Star Trek, etc)
When TSR published the first edition of Advanced Dungeons and Dragons in 1977, Gary Gygax decided to add rules for psychic phenomrena to the game, as something distinct from the standard magic system. (Note: Gygax was notorious for creating AD&D sub-systems that were completely dissimilar from every other system.) He built an entirely separate subsystem for the game, that he called "psionics." The system was presented as optional rules in an appendix to the 1st edition AD&D Player's Handbook. Gygax used terminology for this system lifed from the then-popular parapsychology, as filtered through popular media. Conequently, the psionics system uses pseudoscientific terminilogy, mixed with terms from Freudian and Jungian psychology. (Many have speculated that he threw in some terminology he learned from an introductory psychology class he took at the University of Chicago in 1958.)
The first edition psionics rules were very much a subsystem that was bolted onto the side of the regular rules. Some rules were unique to the psionics system (e.g. the psychic combat system). Other powers more-or-less duplicated spell effects from the standard rules. Reflecting the popular image of a psychic using an inner store of mental strength to cause paranormal effects, this system used a power-point system. (This is quite distinct from the AD&D magic system, which had been heavily influenced by the wizards of Jack Vance's Dying Earth series, who used their spellbooks to etch single-use patterns of unnatural power into their own minds.)
As a subsystem, the 1st. ed. AD&D psionics was unwieldy, time-consuming, unbalancing, and prone to misuse. Psionics were additional abilities that a character could possess, regardless of class, based on a percentile roll at character creation. These rolls determined the character's psionic strength, and pffensive and defensive abilites. Specific abilities were rolled randomly from a chart. Abilities didn't scale with level, and the power level of a character's psionic ability was randomly determined. Because it was an optional rule, very few published AD&D materials used psioncis. Many DMs did not allow the system in thier own games.
When the Second Edition of AD&D was published in 1989, psionics were dropped from the Player's Handbook. A completely revised version of 1st-edition psionics was released in 1991 in the 2nd Edition book Complete Psionics Handbook. Pretty much all of the 1970s-vintage terminology was retained in this book. This book introduced new character classes based around psionic powers, and retained a completely different "psionic points" system for manging abilities.
Third Edition D&D under the OGL also did not include psionics in the core rules. In 2001, WotC released the rules of the 3rd edition Psionics Handbook under the OGL. This was more-or-less the same system used for Second Edition, including the names of powers and character classes. These rules also kept a version of the points system. As a consistent set of balanced rules, they're pretty good.
In 2010, Dreamscarred Press (DSP) released a version of the 3.5 OGL psionics rules that were updated to the Pathfinder Role-Playing Game. DSP did an excellent job of porting OGL psionics into Pathfinder: the system is solid and workable.
Today, when players of the D&D family of games talk about "psionics," they're usually specifically talking about the point-based powers system that works distinctly differently than the slot-based spell system. There is a great deal of controversy among gamers about the appropriateness of effectively having two different and incompatible magic systems in the game, when they both more or less accomplish the same thing.
My personal take is that I'm not a fan of having two separate magic systems in the same game. The 3.x OGL D&D psionics system, as written (either by WotC or DSP) are good. I just don't like them in a game alongside slot-based spells.
Occult Adventures will tread upon somewhat similar territory as D&D psionics, but will be looking at much earlier source material. Whereas D&D psionics is more-or-less based on the parapsychology movement of the 1960s and '70s, Occult Adventures will looking back to occult traditions of the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries as its inspiration. It will be far less clinical and pseudoscientific in approach to the material, focusing on the arcane and the creepy. It will introduce psychic magic to the game, whicch will use the familiar spell slot mechanics.
Actually I think psionics were originally introduced in the Eldritch Wizardry supplement for OD&D.
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Mind bullets.
Actually I think psionics were originally introduced in the Eldritch Wizardry supplement for OD&D.
You're right! I forgot about that supplement from 1976! I've never read Eldritch Wizardry, but my understanding is that the version of psionics in the AD&D PHB is pretty much the identical system.
Oh, and as an aside, Gygax famously regretted ever adding psionics into D&D-- he felt that it didn't match the rest of the game in theme or feel. (And, honestly, I would agree.)
The main thing I remember about AD&D 1e psionics was that we had one PC in our group that got lucky and had psionics. If we ever encountered a psionic monster, he'd gleefully announce, "I engage him in psychic combat!" Everyone else would groan. We'd all then then head over to the pool table and play 8-ball for the next 45 minutes while the DM and that player resolved the psychic combat. (It was 10 rounds of psychic combat to one round of regular combat, or something like that...)
I now realize the difference between psionics and psychic magic. THanks :). Occult Adventures does seem to be shaping up to be an awesome book and like I said before, there could be some psychic aasimars of mine running around.
Mind bullets.
That's Telekinesis, Kyle.
There's a quote from Gygax where he posits this as the biggest mistake he ever made in designing AD+D. It was an extremely chaotic and unbalanced bolt on included in the AD+D dungeon master's guide and briefly referenced in the Player's Handbook if I recall correctly.
AD&D Players Handbook, (c)1978 TSR Games. Appendix I: Psionics. pp. 110-117. Describes the powers, psionic strength points system, and briefly describes psychic combat.
AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (c)1979 TSR Games. Psychic combat tables, pp. 76-79.
From my own experiences ALL previous versions of Psionics were broken. The only exception seems to be Dreamscarred Press's psionics for Pathfinder. And keep in mind I say this version is balanced because of a chat where someone from Dreamscarred went over the fixes to the 3.5e system that makes their version superior. This was a while back and I don't remember the details but I trusted him. I also have all those psionics RULE! fanboys to rely on for why psionics is better than magic. Keep in mind I said better NOT unbalanced. My only remaining issues with the system are in it's interaction with magic, ESPECIALLY for all those games where psionics are NOT the same as magic.
And since I know people will ask; why are psionics better? Because of the increased versatility of use inherent to a point system and the improved scalability over magic's way of this good and NO better where your free scaling hits level caps or worse is stuck forever at a low level of effect.
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Psychic magic is something new and different. And sounds like it will be fun to play test.
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There are two things people tend to miss (at least in the posts I've read) regarding Psionics. Or at least DSP's Psionics.
1) Augmenting powers. You can't just augment all willy nilly, which is what a lot of people seem to assume or believe. You can only spend a maximum appoint of points on any given power equal to your manifester level (think spellcaster level). So yes, you can have a 1 st level that does 1d6 damage +1d6 damage per extra point spent. But if your manifester level is, say 4, the most you can spend is 4 points on anything, period.
So for that first level power it's 1 point to manifest (cast) and 3 to augment, for a total of 4d6 damage. The average Psion (wizard) will be able to do that maybe 5 to 6 times a day, but then can't manifest anything else. At the same time your friendly neighborhood Barbarian will still be raging away with his two-hander.
2) Under DSP's system, magic and psionics are 100% interchangeable, as far as effects go. Anything that blocks, dispels, or identifies one will have the exact same effect on the other. There is no such thing as "games where psionics are not the same thing as magic" if you're following the rules. If you're playing in a game where it's otherwise, that's a houserule, or someone didn't read the rulebook.
For very good depiction of Scifi/fantasy Psionics I recommend
"The Saga of Pliocene Exile (known as the Saga of the Exiles in some markets) is a narrative surrounding the adventures of a group of late 21st and early 22nd century misfits/outcasts who travel through a one-way time-gate to Earth's Pliocene epoch, in the hopes of finding a simple utopia where they can finally fit in.
However, the reality is far removed from the dream. The time-travelers arrive to discover the Pliocene is already inhabited by a dimorphic race of aliens ('exotics'), the Tanu and the Firvulag. The exotics, who have fled their home galaxy because of religious persecution, are marooned on Pliocene Earth as well.
There are five categories of 'metapsychic' powers in the series: creation, coercion, psychokinesis, farsensing and redaction.
Creativity: the ability to create illusions, change shape and manipulate energy. The Firvulag are described as being naturally gifted at creativity, often using it to assume monstrous forms. More powerful individuals could use it to crudely change states of matter (air to plasma and thus throw lightning bolts and so forth) but the most powerful can actually manipulate and change the very form of matter (air & water to fresh cherries for example).
Coercion: the ability of metapsychic mind control over other people.
Psychokinesis: (or PK) the ability to move physical objects through space metapsychically. The most powerful PK Tanu used this ability to levitate a number of Tanu and their chaliko steeds as a Pliocene Wild Hunt.
Farsensing: the ability to communicate with others and to sense remotely via metapsychic means. Analogous to telepathy, clairvoyance and remote viewing. In the story "Intervention", this ability is initially termed ultrasensing.
Redaction: the ability of psychic healing and, to a certain extent, mind reading. This is most commonly described in the books for mental or psychological healing, but it is also used for healing physical ailments as well. It was also used in the Galactic Milieu to help latent metapsychics achieve operancy. It could also occasionally be used for interrogation and torture. In the Galactic Milieu recidivist criminals would be adjusted with this power."
Over channel and Wilder Surges don't stack, as I recall.
Wilders also suck at powers known. "All the world is a nail" is the only way they can play.
Wilders are Jean Grey, Psions are Professor X.Over channel and Wilder Surges don't stack, as I recall.
Wilders also suck at powers known. "All the world is a nail" is the only way they can play.
Tacticslion is correct. The over channel feat and wild surges do not stack. The wild surge also has the advantage (or at least it did in 3.5, I forget if DSP's is the same) of the augmented manifester level automatically paying for the boost, where as you have to still expend power points to reach your higher level cap with the overchannel feat.
Arcane and Divine casters can nova, too, and scrolls work better than the psionic equivalent. Power stones and cognizance crystals are almost like scrolls that got separated into two parts.
Wilders also suck at powers known. "All the world is a nail" is the only way they can play.
Actually pretty much every psionic class except the Psion is like this. Vitalist is pretty strapped for powers known, too, though not quite as bad as Wilder. Psychic Warrior is too, but they're a half-caster class anyway, like bard/alchemist/inquisitor/magus/etc., and get other abilities to make up for it. The Wilder and Vitalist... not as much. Wilder gets to be a bit more versatile and certainly a lot more overpowering with what they DO have, and Vitalist has a fairly varied array of non-power class abilities, though I haven't quite figured out the trick to playing one yet.
Psionics (noun)
1. what AI super computers use in place of magic, because computers are not alive and only living things can *do* magic.
2. Spock from >Star Trek< has psionics.
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Fun phenomena about the history of psionics in D&D: Monks in Fourth Edition are psychic. (It was supposed to be ki for their power source, but the devteam couldn't think of any other classes to give ki to, and ki as a power source was just "psionic powers but Asian" and they couldn't do that without looking racist. So yeah. That's why the 4e monk is considered a psychic character.)
(Why do I bring this up? Gygax hated the monk, too. =p)
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Psionics is essentially magic wearing the clothes of New Age psychic phenomena. Unlike magic, whose literary heritage spans from much older sources, Psionics in the game draws mainly from comic books, horror movies like "Scanners", and the "New Age" movement.
Psionics is essentially is less sci-fi version of D&D's magic system. Unlike D&D's Vancian magic system, which was lifted directly from a science fiction novel and appears nowhere else in literature or mythology, D&D psionics creates a mechanic that reflects the way most people assume magic would work in a fantasy setting: practioners draw upon a depletable pool of energy which they shape to their will without "preparing" or "memorizing" an abitrary number of fire-and-forget spells.
Killing enemies WITH YOUR MIND!
Fun phenomena about the history of psionics in D&D: Monks in Fourth Edition are psychic. (It was supposed to be ki for their power source, but the devteam couldn't think of any other classes to give ki to, and ki as a power source was just "psionic powers but Asian" and they couldn't do that without looking racist. So yeah. That's why the 4e monk is considered a psychic character.)
(Why do I bring this up? Gygax hated the monk, too. =p)
Gygax hated the monk? What about Arneson?
who said, "psionics is people" ?
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Some interesting explanations; but try this.
Psionics = Marvel Comics X-Men type powers (its not exact, but it gets people on the right track). The example of the movie Scanners is also very good.
Psychic = Traditions of sooth saying, fortune telling, and aura sensitivity from India and many middle eastern and far eastern cultures pushed to the level of actual magic. Extreme variations go as far as Avatar the Last Airbender like powers: including the out of body experiences and nature spirits of the Avatar series.
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Psionics are also kind of 'been there, done that' in D&D style games, which already have 'magic spells' with names and effects based on traditional psi powers and phenomena like ESP, clairvoyance / clairaudience, telekinesis, etc. 'The sight,' precognition (or retrocognition / object reading / psychometry), etc. are all typical psi attributes more generally subsumed into magic now.
Even teleportation, a word that was coined in the '50s, and doesn't represent anything from myth and legend (since mythic folk got around with seven-league boots or flying horses / broomsticks / mortars & pestles or rainbow bridges & eight legged horses & flying chariots pulled by flying goats or lions or boars, not by 'teleporting'), has been poached by magic in popular fiction, along with telekinesis, pyrokinesis and telepathy.
No matter how a psionics system is presented, it just looks like 'magic with power points instead of spells' to a generation that has grown up with 'witches' and 'wizards' using telekinesis and telepathy and teleportation on shows like Charmed or Buffy or Supernatural or American Horror Story: Coven, and don't really have any familiarity with stories of magic (rituals, curses, transformations) *before* they started using modern psi phenomena in comics, games and movies as shorthand for 'magic.'
You'll even find the occasional goof who will criticize a psionic system using traditional psionic stuff like telekinesis for 'just copying spells,' which is like someone criticizing Annie Lennox singing 'Sweet Dreams (are made of this)' for ripping off Marilyn Manson. :)
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which is like someone criticizing Annie Lennox singing 'Sweet Dreams (are made of this)' for ripping off Marilyn Manson. :)
1. I'm relatively sure that this happens on a regular basis. :P
2. I personally prefer the Emily Browning version, recorded for Sucker Punch, to either of those.Emily Browning > Annie Lennox >>> Marilyn Manson
Psionics: The word which will send game masters screaming in fear crying out in a fearful voice "Nooooooo!!!!"
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^^^ this :P
Honestly in 3.5 I found that Psionics and Shadowcasting (from Tome of Magic) were some of the most balanced forms of casting xD
^^^ this :P
Honestly in 3.5 I found that Psionics and Shadowcasting (from Tome of Magic) were some of the most balanced forms of casting xD
I agree. The benefits of something approached later with a lot of thought and consideration. I liked the different types tied to ability scores.
A system that is far far less broken than 3.x/PFRPG Vancian spellcasting.
Oh be honest it is no more or less broken than spell casting itself is.
Still the horror stories abound. The stories usually center around a poor unsuspecting GM who is wholly unprepared for how to run a game with psionics, yet he allows his players to talk him into it anyway. And the horror was unleashed! Short story is these GMs made glaring mistakes and perhaps even had their players take advantage of his cluelessness with regard to the new system. The system has balances if you know enough to use them.
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Personally I loved how Shadowmagic was handled. It was full of flavour and created some interesting views on how you wanted to play. Do you want to be a Jack of All things or do you want to be very skilled in a few focused areas. And the flavour of building up on prior knowledge seems cool and flavourful.
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Personally I loved how Shadowmagic was handled. It was full of flavour and created some interesting views on how you wanted to play. Do you want to be a Jack of All things or do you want to be very skilled in a few focused areas. And the flavour of building up on prior knowledge seems cool and flavourful.
Agreed - I wish more magic-using classes had aspects of that. ^_^