3.5 Psionics: Experience, Math, and Balance (or lack thereof)


3.5/d20/OGL

1 to 50 of 362 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Like the title says, this thread will be the thread to talk about those things. We should all link to this thread when the arguments come up. Again.


First Case:

The Case of Nathaneal Love

Okay, if you really, really want to, you can do this, there are actually people who like talking all about balance.

I'm not in the mood, but they might be.

Nate:

1) publish the character's builds - not just a feat or two, publish their actual build

2) give us the specific ways they disrupted your game (beyond just "+10 to AC" or "they can target touch AC if they spend three feats") and the ways you attempted to challenge that character without overwhelming the party and the specifics of why that failed

3) give us a solid reason why similar effects couldn't be accomplished with casting

4) be open to "reverse builds" and seeing how you can improve

5) be ready to - politely - discuss the "how" that it actually plays

Others:

1) please be ready to see how you can improve

Thanks!

(Anyone else with questions, comments or concerns can also bring their cases to this thread.)


Psionics has been great in my limited experience. I will say that if you're a DM and not up on how psionics work, clever players can do some really potent stuff, especially when they are working together. Lots of good/built in ways for multiple psionic characters to act as force multipliers for each other.

Probably my favorite part of the system, that.


I should say that this is correct in my experience. It's interesting in that it actively fosters team play in that regard.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

The case against Psionics is pretty simple--

1. Every "spell" cast is cast as a maximum level spell

2. Effectively a Sorcerer caster who needs spend only a single spell known on damage dealing since it scales to any level (whereas Sorcerer must spend one of every spell level to be able to effectively use all the slots)

3. No components, no penalty for using in armor

The arguments that Psiionics are balanced are basically built on two core claims--

1. Psionic spells don't scale without pending additional power points

and

2. Psionic spells are "worse" than their Arcane equivalents

I refute these claims because

1. Arcane spells have caps to how high they can scale, whereas Psionics do not-- Magic Missile can never do more than 5d4+5, whereas every 1st level damaging Psionic power has no cap save your manifestor level

1b. Utility spells which the Psion need not memorize and which he has more available spells known slots for don't need to scale

and

2. If that is in fact the case it is only the case because less books of psionics have been published with fewer total spell effect available in the system

Paizo Employee Design Manager

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:

The case against Psionics is pretty simple--

1. Every "spell" cast is cast as a maximum level spell

You're confusing psionics with standard Vancian arcane. There is no automatic scaling with psionic powers.

Nathanael Love wrote:


2. Effectively a Sorcerer caster who needs spend only a single spell known on damage dealing since it scales to any level (whereas Sorcerer must spend one of every spell level to be able to effectively use all the slots)

Shows a lack of understanding of the nuances of both systems. Arcane spells evolve exponentially level by level, with additional rider, area and other affects available. A psionic Energy Ray is still an energy ray, whether the points are spent to scale it or not. It can be made kind of relevant, but is nothing like a an actual higher level spell.

Nathanael Love wrote:

The arguments that Psiionics are balanced are basically built on two core claims--

1. Psionic spells don't scale without pending additional power points

and

2. Psionic spells are "worse" than their Arcane equivalents

I refute these claims because

1. Arcane spells have caps to how high they can scale, whereas Psionics do not-- Magic Missile can never do more than 5d4+5, whereas every 1st level damaging Psionic power has no cap save your manifestor level

1b. Utility spells which the Psion need not memorize and which he has more available spells known slots for don't need to scale

and

2. If that is in fact the case it is only the case because less books of psionics have been published with fewer total spell effect available in the system

Thee reasons for psionics being well-balanced stretch far beyond your two claims, but lets start by addressing your refutations:

1) Arcane spells scale automatically. That magic missile spell gets up to 5d4+5 all on its own, with no additional expenditure of resource on the caster's part. To get an energy ray up to that point, the manifester has to spend the equivalent of a 3rd level power. A psion is forced to spend chunks of power points equivalent to much higher level powers to get something worthwhile out of his abilities. It would be like a wizard having to sacrifice 2 1st level spells and 1 2nd level spell slot to cast a fireball.

1b) The psion is limited to 36 powers known, total, by 20th level. The wizard can have upwards of 50+ spells memorized by that time, with access to literally any other spell on their list if they have notice. They also have few powers that they won't need to scale in order for them to stay competitive. The psionic version of invisibility, cloud mind, is a single target ability that grants a save and has the mind-affecting descriptor. That means the psion needs to spend the equivalent of a 7th level spell to hide from just 5 people, all of whom get a save and some of whom may very well be immune to the ability.

2) This is just... there's not a word that won't attract moderation. Leave it that the value (or lack thereof) of an argument that boils down to "The only reason it isn't broken is because they haven't written broken powers yet" should be readily apparent. It's like saying the only reason Fighters aren't broken is because they haven't published the feat that lets him fly and deflect bullets like Superman yet, or that Wizards are perfectly balanced because you just ignore all the broken spells.

***

The psion has the ability to manifest roughly 20 meaningful powers at 20th level, and then he is utterly and completely spent. Despite these costing as much as his highest level abilities, many of them won't actually have the effects of a 9th level power; an energy ray that a psion has augmented by spending 20 pp is still only a single target energy based attack dealing 20d6 damage, nowhere near the power of an actual high level power. Such a power might be equivalent of a 5th level spell (though really, a cone of cold spell at 20th kicks in the teeth of a fully augmented energy ray).

The wizard at 20th level (not including magical items) will have roughly 20 spells of equivalent or greater power than those our aforementioned psion used from his automatically scaling 6th-9th level spells. However, once those are expended, instead of being drained like the psion he has:

*Around 7 1st level spells which are automatically scaled to the effectiveness of a 3rd level power.
* A like number of 2nd level spells, automatically scaled to the effectiveness of 4th level powers.
*Around 6 3rd level spells which have automatically been scaled to the equivalent of 5th level powers.
*A like number of 4th level spells, automatically scaled to a point that would cost a psion as much as a 6th level power.
*And around 5 5th level spells, auto-scaling to a point that would be the equivalent of a psion spending the resources of a 7th-8th level power.

You want to introduce potentially game-breaking and plot derailing power into your campaign? Let a player play a wizard or sorcerer. You want a balanced full caster you can actually write an adventure for who still needs to rely on his party for support and didn't get all of the broken abilities? Go with a psion. They're much better balanced, and that's fact, not opinion.


Its an opinion not a fact.

I already re-futted your false "no free scaling" claim in my initial post.

At 20th level a Wizard will never cast those supposedly powerful 1st and 2nd level powers. Also, when Psions scale up their powers they increase the save DCs of those powers as well whereas Wizards cannot-- the save DC for a 3rd level spell is always the same and low enough that its essentially not worth casting at a certain level.

By that same logic then ever 1st level power a psion casts is the equivalent of a 4th level spell since it has three free +1 level metamagic feats added to it (Eschew Material, Still, and Silent)

You CANNOT compare Psion to Wizard on spells known and claim that shows Wizard is more powerful-- Psion casts spontaneously.

20? You somehow played a Psion to 20th level with a 10 intelligence? I count 24 as a much more realistic number. . .there are bonus power points, and even a Psion who could somehow cast 9th level powers with a 10 Intelligence could cast 20.7 of them per day.

Compared to the Wizard who at 20th level has effectively 20 since 5th level and lower spells won't be worth an action in combat with 20th level creatures.

You're also completely ignoring the action economy of it. You are counting up all the extra things a Wizard could do if combat was infinite, while the Psion just gets to cast more of his highest level spell and be done with it-- combat is over long before the Psion runs out of power points to cast at all.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I guess we should compare it to the sorcerer then, who, compared to the psion, has a paltry 34 spells known.

Of course that's 34 of any spells in the game, unlike the psion. The psion has to (like a wizard, but worse) specialize in a discipline of powers. By specializing, he loses all access to any powers on any other discipline list. There is no generalist option for psions, and he can't use items to get around this restriction either.

I'd call it a wash at best, but I'm pretty sure the sorcerer comes out on top in this deal.


6 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:
I already re-futted your false "no free scaling" claim in my initial post.

Just saying "I did it" doesn't mean you actually did it. Citation needed, please.


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Of course that's 34 of any spells in the game, unlike the psion. The psion has to (like a wizard, but worse) specialize in a discipline of powers. By specializing, he loses all access to any powers on any other discipline list. There is no generalist option for psions, and he can't use items to get around this restriction either.

Yes and no.

While there's no generalist option, your specialization gives you access to a handful of powers - two or three at most, though at higher levels I think it's only one option - at each level. You're locked out of the corresponding two or three options (per power level) for each of the other disciplines, yes. So that's, on average, 2x6x9=108 (give or take) powers you can never learn. (I *think* there's 7 total specializations. I could be wrong, which would affect the math obviously.) But you're not limited to those powers alone - there's still the big main list of powers that anyone can choose from, regardless of specialization.

You also don't get those specialization powers for free, though, unlike a Sorcerer's bloodline spells or a Wizard's bonus spell slots for their chosen school spells. You have to choose whether to spend your new-power-known-from-leveling-up on something from the general list or from your specialization list.

You can also pick up the other specialization powers if you're willing to burn feats on it for Expanded Knowledge (I think that's what it's called anyway, can't get on the PFSRD to check). But that limits you to a power a level or more lower than your maximum, so I can see how it might not be appealing to some. And it costs a feat, which again might not appeal to some players, who would rather use their feats on other things.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:

Its an opinion not a fact.

It's a fact that doesn't agree with your opinion.

Nathanael Love wrote:


I already re-futted your false "no free scaling" claim in my initial post.

Ummmm.... No, you didn't.

Nathanael Love wrote:


At 20th level a Wizard will never cast those supposedly powerful 1st and 2nd level powers. Also, when Psions scale up their powers they increase the save DCs of those powers as well whereas Wizards cannot-- the save DC for a 3rd level spell is always the same and low enough that its essentially not worth casting at a certain level.

Which makes those levels a great place to tuck away literal scores of scaling buffs, no save spells, etc. so he can use his upper level powers to create dimensions and destroy cities.

Nathanael Love wrote:


By that same logic then ever 1st level power a psion casts is the equivalent of a 4th level spell since it has three free +1 level metamagic feats added to it (Eschew Material, Still, and Silent)

That's not the same logic, that's misguided opinion creating false equivalencies and ignoring that these are two completely different systems.

Nathanael Love wrote:


You CANNOT compare Psion to Wizard on spells known and claim that shows Wizard is more powerful-- Psion casts spontaneously.

Sure I can. The Wizard's ability to prepare is one of the primary reasons he's considered more powerful than the spontaneous Sorcerer.

Nathanael Love wrote:

20? You somehow played a Psion to 20th level with a 10 intelligence? I count 24 as a much more realistic number. . .there are bonus power points, and even a Psion who could somehow cast 9th level powers with a 10 Intelligence could cast 20.7 of them per day.

I didn't add bonus spells for high INT onto the Wizard either in that block of the discussion either, since exact modifiers and access to items can vary from campaign to campaign.

Nathanael Love wrote:


Compared to the Wizard who at 20th level has effectively 20 since 5th level and lower spells won't be worth an action in combat with 20th level creatures.

Now we're getting to the heart of the problem. You've never seen a Wizard played well so you actually think 5th level spells are useless. That's simply untrue as there are plenty of buff, debuff, control, and even damage spells that either don't allow for a save or still have a worthwhile effect even if the target saves. On a slightly off-topic note, these are generally the prime candidates for use with a Quicken Metamagic Rod.

Nathanael Love wrote:


You're also completely ignoring the action economy of it. You are counting up all the extra things a Wizard could do if combat was infinite, while the Psion just gets to cast more of his highest level spell and be done with it-- combat is over long before the Psion runs out of power points to cast at all.

So you only run one combat a day? Your Wizards never use any of their numerous hours/level or 10 min/level buffs before heading into danger? You are ignoring the action economy of it; a Wizard gets to pre-metamagic all of his spells, while a psion has to burn his focus to apply one metamagic effect, and then spend a full round action to recover his focus (or a move if he spends a feat, ceding even more ground to the wizard in non spell/power specific areas to try and make the gap between them a little smaller and catch up a little bit to his arcane counterpart) before he can do it again. This means the Wizard is potentially getting an extra swift and full round (or move) over the Psion every 3 rounds of combat.


@Ssalarn-- I'm not responding to arguments from someone who is either incapable of discerning the difference between facts and opinions or is arguing for the sole point of angering me.

Admit that you are talking about your opinions and perhaps we can have a discussion, but you saying it does not make Psionics being balanced a fact.


Actually, I'm done here-- its obvious Psionics is exactly what I always thought it was, a system for the worst kind of players to scam GMs into allowing and abuse-- thanks for reminding me SSalarn.

Psionics with power points banned from my tables again. Probably permanently since a system without the inherent broken advantages of it is being published soon.

Grand Lodge

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:
Admit that you are talking about your opinions and perhaps we can have a discussion, but you saying it does not make Psionics being balanced a fact.

The fact that you cannot bring any arguments to refute his opinion leads me to believe otherwise.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
Admit that you are talking about your opinions and perhaps we can have a discussion, but you saying it does not make Psionics being balanced a fact.
The fact that you cannot bring any arguments to refute his opinion leads me to believe otherwise.

I refuse to argue with someone who isn't playing with the same grounds. Him saying it does not make it a fact.

His only argument countering several of mine was calling "false equivalency".

Nothing I could possibly say is going to bring out a worthwhile argument from someone who believes his opinion is fact and claims that any argument to the counter isn't worthy of discussing.

But if you want me to tear down his points rather quickly--

@more than 20 rounds of combat in a day-- have you ever seen it? Regardless of how many encounters I try to get a party to do I have never seen them total more than 20 rounds of combat in a day.

@Rod of quickening somehow being uber for Wizard-- Psions can use it too? Under the rules spells and psionics are the same, so Psions can use meta-magic wands

@1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells with no saves-- really? Do I really have to refute the claim that there are 1st-3rd level spells worth using at 20th level that have no saves?

@his claim that I stated 5th level spells are useless-- I did not, I stated that they aren't worth using in combat comparatively to 9th level spell slots; he said there's tons that you should then didn't list any of them-- that's not even an argument it was literally just an insult to me


11 people marked this as a favorite.

The problem is you're not providing an argument to the counter. You're just saying "Nope I'm right".

In fact you're doing just exactly what you're accusing him of. It's kind of amusing to watch.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Orthos wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Of course that's 34 of any spells in the game, unlike the psion. The psion has to (like a wizard, but worse) specialize in a discipline of powers. By specializing, he loses all access to any powers on any other discipline list. There is no generalist option for psions, and he can't use items to get around this restriction either.

Yes and no.

While there's no generalist option, your specialization gives you access to a handful of powers - two or three at most, though at higher levels I think it's only one option - at each level. You're locked out of the corresponding two or three options (per power level) for each of the other disciplines, yes. So that's, on average, 2x6x9=108 (give or take) powers you can never learn. (I *think* there's 7 total specializations. I could be wrong, which would affect the math obviously.) But you're not limited to those powers alone - there's still the big main list of powers that anyone can choose from, regardless of specialization.

There are 6 specialization, but yeah the general list is still there. Nonetheless, compared to the wizard who gives up 2/8 schools if he specializes, the psion is giving up 5/6 disciplines.

Quote:
You also don't get those specialization powers for free, though, unlike a Sorcerer's bloodline spells or a Wizard's bonus spell slots for their chosen school spells. You have to choose whether to spend your new-power-known-from-leveling-up on something from the general list or from your specialization list.

Reminder: This is 3.5 and not pathfinder. If this was Pathfinder, Sorcerers would have 43 powers known (with bloodline powers) and the human FCB to gain 1 spell known/level.

I had forgotten about the expanded knowledge feat. I'll need to remember it in the future. Psions have a similar FCB in pathfinder, but it only provides 1/2 power per level.


Except the Psion gives up a total of 9-11 powers per school he gives up, not all the powers that happen to fall into that school. Its 1/level per school for most levels/schools and a few extras.

The Psions disciplines are closer to a Clerics domain than a Wizards specialist-- he ADDS spells to his list based on the choices whereas the Wizard takes the base list and REMOVES opposition spells.


Good 1st/2nd level spells without a save (PHB Only):

1st:
Magic Weapon
Silent Image
Feather Fall
Enlarge Person
Obscurring Mist

2nd:
Resist Energy
Fog Cloud
Darkness
False Life
Alter Self
Knock
Glitterdust (always reveals invisible people)
Invisibility
Mirror Image
Blur
Pyrotechnics


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
There are 6 specialization, but yeah the general list is still there. Nonetheless, compared to the wizard who gives up 2/8 schools if he specializes, the psion is giving up 5/6 disciplines.

Thanks, couldn't be completely sure without having the books on-hand.

Quote:
Reminder: This is 3.5 and not pathfinder. If this was Pathfinder, Sorcerers would have 43 powers known (with bloodline powers) and the human FCB to gain 1 spell known/level.

Derp, right. @_@

Quote:
I had forgotten about the expanded knowledge feat. I'll need to remember it in the future. Psions have a similar FCB in pathfinder, but it only provides 1/2 power per level.

Yeah, Expanded Knowledge - especially in 3.5 - was kind of a necessity, for any class other than Psion. Especially Wilders, with their "I'm supposed to be a full casting type class, but I only get 1 power known at each level except 1st where I have two, unless I buy more with feats".

For a Psion it's still nice but not as much "MUST HAVE".


Those aren't combat spells, those are random small utility spells, most of them invalidated by magic items by that point.

When was the last time you cast Magic Weapon at 20th level? Never because the Wizard shouldn't be swinging a sword and the fighter already has a magic weapon.

Almost none of those are worth spending an action on at 20th level at all. You would always be better casting the 6th-9th level version.

But to go through them 1 by 1:

1st:
Magic Weapon -- have magic weapon already
Silent Image -- has a save (Will to disbelieve)
Feather Fall -- better off with Fly or Shapechange; not a combat apllicable spell
Enlarge Person -- if using on yourself, Shapechange infinitely better; if using on someone else probably better spending the action attacking instead
Obscurring Mist-- easily countered and not worth using at high levels

2nd:
Resist Energy -- Energy Immunity replaces
Fog Cloud -- same as obscuring mist-- also affect both yourself and the opponent
Darkness --same problems as Fog cloud and obscuring mist, they affect you equally
False Life -- this is effectively a cure light wounds; only worth spending an action on in combat if you are literally almost dead and invalidated in less than attack from anything you should be fighting
Alter Self -- Shapechange
Knock --Not combat applicable
Glitterdust (always reveals invisible people) -- True Sight invalidates
Invisibility -- Improved Invisibility Invalidates
Mirror Image -- Not worth the action in higher level combat
Blur -- Not worth the action in higher level combat
Pyrotechnics-- Has Will or Fortitude save


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Under the rules spells and psionics are the same, so Psions can use meta-magic wands

You would be incorrect on that.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
Those aren't combat spells, those are random small utility spells, most of them invalidated by magic items by that point.

... seriously? Glitterdust isn't a combat spell - when it nukes the stealth capacity of enemies and possibly blinds them? Or Mirror Image - one of the best defensive buffs in the game? SERIOUSLY? I guess someone should go tell the 14th-level Warmage in my Kingmaker party, then. He loves those spells, and I can't see him not using them all the way to 20, considering they keep working as intended all the way there.

Or do you just not consider anything that doesn't do damage as "not a combat spell"? There's a lot - A LOT - more to wizardry than Evocation.

You're right, you ARE playing on completely different grounds from the rest of us.


Glitterdust is strictly inferior to True Sight at the level you can cast True Sight.

Your average 20th level creature has a poor save of +16 which means there is no chance of blinding them.


SRD wrote:
The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

The way the interchange is written suggest that you can-- a Psion picks up a meta-magic rod and it reads the words spells and powers interchangeably.

If DSP has made a ruling to the otherwise that isn't really applicable based on the rules as written from the 3.5 books.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:

Glitterdust is strictly inferior to True Sight at the level you can cast True Sight.

Your average 20th level creature has a poor save of +16 which means there is no chance of blinding them.

So, that's not entirely true. True Seeing has a maximum range of 120 ft., compared to glitterdusts medium range (100 ft. +10 ft./level) and takes up a higher spell slot, it also doesn't provide the utility of blinding low-will save creatures. It's also impossible to quicken without using a rod.

It's certainly better against illusions, though. Pick and choose.


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Glitterdust is strictly inferior to True Sight at the level you can cast True Sight.

Your average 20th level creature has a poor save of +16 which means there is no chance of blinding them.

So, that's not entirely true. True Seeing has a maximum range of 120 ft., compared to glitterdusts medium range and takes up a higher spell slot, it also doesn't provide the utility of blinding low-will save creatures. It's also impossible to quicken without using a rod.

It's certainly better against illusions, though. Pick and choose.

Sure. . but Glitterdust requires you to cast it in a 10 ft radius spread, so unless you already know where the creature is its 100% ineffective. . .

Also, by 20th level its reasonable to assume that you have cast permanency on see invisibility since you can.


Nathanael Love wrote:
Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Glitterdust is strictly inferior to True Sight at the level you can cast True Sight.

Your average 20th level creature has a poor save of +16 which means there is no chance of blinding them.

So, that's not entirely true. True Seeing has a maximum range of 120 ft., compared to glitterdusts medium range and takes up a higher spell slot, it also doesn't provide the utility of blinding low-will save creatures. It's also impossible to quicken without using a rod.

It's certainly better against illusions, though. Pick and choose.

Sure. . but Glitterdust requires you to cast it in a 10 ft radius spread, so unless you already know where the creature is its 100% ineffective. . .

Also, by 20th level its reasonable to assume that you have cast permanency on see invisibility since you can.

Same range issue, extra monetary cost.

Coincidentally, See Invisibility is also a second level spell that doesn't allow a save.


Also still invalidated by True Sight.

None of those fall under what I consider to be a spell with no save though-- compare them to Ice Storm and Power Word Death-- those are spells with no saves, not buffs and vision spells.

Shadow Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.

If a 2nd level spell provides most of the benefits of a 6th level spell, then i consider the 6th level spell to be the one that has been invalidated.

Grand Lodge

8 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If I can get what I need with a 2nd level spell, I can use that 6th level spell for something else.


Seeing invisible creatures is a sliver of what True Sight does though. Its certainly not "most" of the benefits. . .

Shadow Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.

Except if what you are using it for is looking for an invisible creature. If you use true seeing instead of see invisible to do so as a default, that's stupid and wasteful.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Nathanael Love wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
Admit that you are talking about your opinions and perhaps we can have a discussion, but you saying it does not make Psionics being balanced a fact.
The fact that you cannot bring any arguments to refute his opinion leads me to believe otherwise.

I refuse to argue with someone who isn't playing with the same grounds. Him saying it does not make it a fact.

His only argument countering several of mine was calling "false equivalency".

Actually, I went into great detail on why psionics was balanced and the flaws in your refutations and the mechanics backing all my statements, and you said "Nuh uh!"

So of course, I responded the only way one can and said "Nuh uh isn't an argument".


5 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:
compare them to Ice Storm and Power Word Death-- those are spells with no saves, not buffs and vision spells.

Okay, so nothing counts as a combat spell unless it deals damage or otherwise harms the enemy.

This is why we have trouble communicating with you. Your definitions are completely different than the majority of people.

Quote:
Quote:
The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.
The way the interchange is written suggest that you can-- a Psion picks up a meta-magic rod and it reads the words spells and powers interchangeably.

Except that that's not talking about metamagic or similar effects at all. It's talking about when magic effects and psionic effects interact - like using Dispel Magic on a psionically-buffed target, or vice versa.

If you're wanting to say that this is authorization for magic and psionics to interact for metamagic, you'll need to explain away the second half of the sentence: "the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability". Are you saying you can use metamagic feats/items on spell-like abilities? Because you can't - you have to take the various (metamagic) Spell-Like Ability feats. Likewise, to use meta-effects on psionic powers, you need the various Metapsionic feats. Which work completely differently from Metamagic.

Trying to use this as authorization for psionic powers getting access to metamagic or vice-versa doesn't wash.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

3 people marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If I can get what I need with a 2nd level spell, I can use that 6th level spell for something else.

Very much this. Glitterdust has the added benefit of being an AoE debuff and applying a no save penalty to stealth checks, so it does one big thing that true sight isn't useful for: it makes it difficult, if not impossible, for affected creatures to hide through non-magical means. True seeing doesn't do anything at all if the guys is hiding behind a rock instead of turning invisible. It also isn't at risk of being negated if the caster is targeted with a dispelling effect, unlike true sight, so it forces the enemy to make tactical choices that can have a huge impact on the game. It's probably one of the best examples of a low level spell that stays consistently good through all levels of play, though fog cloud / obscuring mist, blur, false life (massively better than CLW since it's preemptive, thus no los of action economy in combat), and mirror image are all also excellent spells whose usefulness persists across the life of play. Not surprisingly, the psionic equivalents of those spells (for the ones that have psionic equivalents) lack even the base power.

So, wizards have more defensive options, more versatility, more raw magic, unique area effects, access to batshit crazy spells like wish and simulacrum for which there is no psionic equivalent... and familiars, which are frequently underestimated but handy even while "dormant".

Psions have.... possibly better blasting (generally considered the least effective kind of spellcasting) thanks to their ability to more easily access energy types, cool flavor, and don't suffer from spell failure due to armor.

Considering the vast array of defensive arcane spells that laugh at the idea of weighting yourself down and burning feats so you can engage in trying to boost a sub-optimal defense better handled through almost any other means, "not screwed by wearing armor" is a gimmick, not a boon. Smart casters know it's better to just not be there when the attack comes (or to turn into something much bigger and tougher with built-in armor).

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Kthulhu wrote:
Except if what you are using it for is looking for an invisible creature. If you use true seeing instead of see invisible to do so as a default, that's stupid and wasteful.

I will play the devil's advocate against myself for a moment, however. Some of the most useful spells in the game are actually found in the lower levels. For a prepared caster, it might actually be wiser on occasion to memorize True Seeing, and have OTHER useful spells in all his 2nd level slots.

And for a spontaneous caster, it might actually be considered more wasteful to burn one of your valuable spells known slots on a spell that is largely a subset of a another (albeit higher level) spell.

It'll still feel wasteful as hell when you burn a 6th level spell to accomplish the same ends as a 2nd level spell, however.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:


@1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells with no saves-- really? Do I really have to refute the claim that there are 1st-3rd level spells worth using at 20th level that have no saves?

And now for this little bit. I only brought up 1st and 2nd level spells earlier, both for time constraint reasons and because I figured I could find enough spells there.

Let's go to 3rd level. Again, PHB (D20srd) only.

Dispel Magic
Protection from Energy
Sleet Storm (DC 10 balance check to hamper movement + blocks sight)
Stinking Cloud (block sight + bonus chance to nauseate)
Heroism
Wind Wall
Displacement
Invisibility Sphere
Major Image
Ray of Exhaustion (Partial Save, target still fatigued 1 min/level upon success)
Blink
Fly
Gaseous Form
Greater Magic Weapon

Oh, and of course haste haste haste, haste haste haste haste, haste.


Dispel Magic-- invalidated by Greater Dispel Magic
Protection from Energy-- still invalidated by Energy Immunity
Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud-- same problems as Obscuring Mist above
Greater Magic Weapon-- still not worth casting; this spell exists only as a way to create permanent magic weapons
Fly-- if you can't cast it ahead of combat probably not worth casting
Invisibility sphere-- has uses, but I am not sure what its going to do to aid in fighting a 20th level foe
Ray of Exhaustion-- weak debuff typically not worth the action
Gaseous Form--can't take any relevant actions while under its effect
Heroism & Haste-- these spells don't give you the Wizard any real benefit; the Bard should be casting these as all they really do is buff the martials in your party; Heroism is so small that at 20th level its nearly insignificant

Lets put it this way. . . you are fighting a team of four pit fiends. If the spell isn't worth casting in that fight, its not significant at 20th level.

Grand Lodge

7 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Plenty of those spells are worth casting before the fight and allow you to use your higher level spells for other purposes in the fight.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Nathanael Love wrote:

@his claim that I stated 5th level spells are useless-- I did not, I stated that they aren't worth using in combat comparatively to 9th level spell slots; he said there's tons that you should then didn't list any of them-- that's not even an argument it was literally just an insult to me

I'm sorry Nathanael, I didn't realize assuming someone could read and use the plentiful online resource available was an insult to them. I normally assume that people would prefer that you presumed their intelligence.

5th level spells that rock-

Dismissal
Cloudkill (still deals CON damage on successful save)
Teleport
Wall of Stone
Feeblemind (allows a save but targets you most want to use it on take a -4 to their saves, keeing it competitive)
Wall of Force
Waves of Fatigue
Overland Flight
Telekinesis

Nathanael Love wrote:


Dispel Magic-- invalidated by Greater Dispel Magic
Protection from Energy-- still invalidated by Energy Immunity
Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud-- same problems as Obscuring Mist above
Greater Magic Weapon-- still not worth casting; this spell exists only as a way to create permanent magic weapons
Fly-- if you can't cast it ahead of combat probably not worth casting
Invisibility sphere-- has uses, but I am not sure what its going to do to aid in fighting a 20th level foe
Ray of Exhaustion-- weak debuff typically not worth the action
Gaseous Form--can't take any relevant actions while under its effect
Heroism & Haste-- these spells don't give you the Wizard any real benefit; the Bard should be casting these as all they really do is buff the martials in your party; Heroism is so small that at 20th level its nearly insignificant

First and foremost - having a better option does not "invalidate" lower level ones. For greater dispel magic to invalidate dispel magic, dispel magic would have to stop working once greater dispel magic came online, but that is not the case. Since there are going to be many instances where I can save a slot that would have been used for a greater dispel by just using dispel, I get to prolong my power and make better use of my abilities.

I dislike your casual dismissal of stinking cloud and the various cloud effects; does every encounter really include a caster who just happened to have prepared or learned a wind-based spell sufficient to disperse their effects? Please elaborate on how you're countering sleet storm.

Ray of exhaustion- the fact that you don't understand how powerful a debuff this is is very telling.
Exhaustion is one of the nastiest debuffs in the game and fatigued is nothing to scoff at either. The fact that you can quickly double up on this spell to inflict exhaustion regardless of the targets save makes it double nasty.

Heroism and haste - see the first sentence after ray of exhaustion, but replace debuff with buff. Bonuses to attack and saves are big deals, especially if they happen to be big group buffs.


Heroism isn't a big group buff. It affects one target and its a +2. That's virtually meaningless when fighting creatures with 40 AC.

Greater Dispel magic DOES invalidate Dispel magic-- at 20th level you need a 31 to dispel effects-- with Dispel Magic you cannot do so, since you only get to add +10 of your caster level and since 20+10= 30= not dispelling an effect cast by a 20th level caster.

To even have a chance of dispelling you have to use Greater Dispel at that level, so you an save the slot all you want but you won't be dispelling anything.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

EDIT: Ah, ninja'd.

Ninja'd by Sslarn:
Nathanael Love wrote:
Lets put it this way. . . you are fighting a team of four pit fiends. If the spell isn't worth casting in that fight, its not significant at 20th level.

Okay, you're not using your buffs correctly.

Nathanael Love wrote:
Dispel Magic-- invalidated by Greater Dispel Magic

Only if you're facing a caster level higher than 13. Many, many very useful magic items have a CL lower than 13.

Nathanael Love wrote:
Protection from Energy-- still invalidated by Energy Immunity

Only if you're not using that higher level slot for something else.

Nathanael Love wrote:
Sleet Storm and Stinking Cloud-- same problems as Obscuring Mist above

The "problem" of... not being used properly?

Nathanael Love wrote:
Greater Magic Weapon-- still not worth casting; this spell exists only as a way to create permanent magic weapons

What?

Nathanael Love wrote:
Fly-- if you can't cast it ahead of combat probably not worth casting

Why wouldn't you know ahead of combat whether or not you wanted it? Why isn't it worthwhile as a high-mobility non-combat spell?

Nathanael Love wrote:
Invisibility sphere-- has uses, but I am not sure what its going to do to aid in fighting a 20th level foe

... a lot, but, of course, it heavily depends on the foe. Few foes will have permanent see invisibility or permanent true seeing on - do recall, that such abilities eat away at said foe's budget and a single casting of greater dispel magic means that creature loses all of their money.

Of course, if the creature simply casts one of those as a spell, he's either wasted a sixth level spell to negate a second level one, or the very low-level see invisibility has suddenly become very relevant.

Nathanael Love wrote:
Ray of Exhaustion-- weak debuff typically not worth the action

Uh-huh. Thus, I presume, none of your players are negatively impacted by having -2 to both strength and dexterity.

Of course, since lower level spells are so worthless, you might as well prepare two, since, you know, they don't do any good.

Nathanael Love wrote:
Gaseous Form--can't take any relevant actions while under its effect

This, combined with your comments on fly, makes it very much appear like you don't do anything in your games other than combat.

Nathanael Love wrote:
Heroism & Haste-- these spells don't give you the Wizard any real benefit; the Bard should be casting these as all they really do is buff the martials in your party; Heroism is so small that at 20th level its nearly insignificant

Heroism I'm sure a +10% success rate to everything you do doesn't sound like much to you, despite lasting around three hours (10 minutes*20 = 200 minutes/60 minutes-per-hour = 3.3333333...), but it's fairly significant to most people.

Haste

If you honestly can't see how getting a +1 to your attack, AC, and reflex; double your move speed; and an extra attack; or, barring that, negating the effects of slow as being worthwhile, I'm really not certain what we're doing here. You're clearly not playing the same game.

A summoner with a large number of creatures hits them with haste.
A necromancer with a large number of minions hits them with haste.
A wizard with a party of adventurers hits them with haste.

A wizard with lots of simulacra hits twenty of them with haste.

This is stupendously useful.


Nathanael Love wrote:

Heroism isn't a big group buff. It affects one target and its a +2. That's virtually meaningless when fighting creatures with 40 AC.

Greater Dispel magic DOES invalidate Dispel magic-- at 20th level you need a 31 to dispel effects-- with Dispel Magic you cannot do so, since you only get to add +10 of your caster level and since 20+10= 30= not dispelling an effect cast by a 20th level caster.

To even have a chance of dispelling you have to use Greater Dispel at that level, so you an save the slot all you want but you won't be dispelling anything.

Assuming a caster of equal level, yes, you will need a 31.

It turns out that not every monster or enemy in the game will also be a 20th level caster, though some lower level casters will have boosters to their actions. For example, none of the great wyrm (CR 22-26) have a caster level greater than 19.

Four Pit Fiends would be a CR 24 encounter, so of course your lower level spells won't be of a help here. Anything short of your best abilities (1/days, 1/weeks, 9th level spells) would more than likely be a waste of time.


The situation is combat.

The Situation in question is you as a 20th level character are fighting against 20th level appropriate foes.

The Psion gets to cast 24 9th level spells while the Wizard has 5 before he is using lower level spells.

I have posited this is not balanced and that the advantage of being able to cast all of your spells as max level is an unfair advantage.

Non-combat spells are irrelevant in refuting that claim. . . fly is fine, but it isn't relevant in arguing whether the fact that Psion gets to cast all 9th level spells in combat is OP or not.

The question isn't a spell that has some corner case--

The question is "What spell would be worth spending a Standard Action to cast during combat with 20th level foes."

Actually, for the claims of how awesome Wizard spell scaling effects are the question really needs to be "What low level spell is a better use of your standard action in combat with 20th level foes than casting a high level option instead."


Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:

Heroism isn't a big group buff. It affects one target and its a +2. That's virtually meaningless when fighting creatures with 40 AC.

Greater Dispel magic DOES invalidate Dispel magic-- at 20th level you need a 31 to dispel effects-- with Dispel Magic you cannot do so, since you only get to add +10 of your caster level and since 20+10= 30= not dispelling an effect cast by a 20th level caster.

To even have a chance of dispelling you have to use Greater Dispel at that level, so you an save the slot all you want but you won't be dispelling anything.

Assuming a caster of equal level, yes, you will need a 31.

It turns out that not every monster or enemy in the game will also be a 20th level caster, though some lower level casters will have boosters to their actions. For example, none of the great wyrm (CR 22-26) have a caster level greater than 19.

Fine, so CL 19 Dispel Magic gives you a 5% chance of dispelling, 10% for CL 18, and so on-- to get to even a 40% chance of dispelling you have to be down to a 12th level caster. Very few CR 19+ threats are 12th level or lower casters.

Grand Lodge

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nathanael Love wrote:
The situation is combat.

That is a very narrow situation. I don't think anyone realized that your standards for balance were so narrow.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nathanael Love wrote:
The situation is combat.
That is a very narrow situation. I don't think anyone realized that your standards for balance were so narrow.

The imbalance shows itself in combat. The Psion is unbalanced because he is superior at nova-ing in combat.

Arguing about other situations (which the Psion isn't any less equipped to deal with than the Wizard by the way) doesn't invalidate the brokenness of casting all 9th level spells in combat.

Grand Lodge

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Novaing is an unsustainable tactic.


The Psion can nova for 24 rounds a day-- we already went over this, how many times have you gotten through more than 24 rounds of combat in a single day in game?

Particularly when novaing ends combats quicker.

1 to 50 of 362 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Gamer Life / Gaming / D&D / 3.5/d20/OGL / 3.5 Psionics: Experience, Math, and Balance (or lack thereof) All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.