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The weapon is listed as a two handed weapon. Being a two handed weapon, does it qualify for the 1.5 strength mod to dmg that all two handed weapons have?
Uh oh, you may not know but you've just stepped in a big point of contention. I happen to agree with Carbon, the rules clearly (IMO) state that when using it as a double weapon it works as two single weapons which each get STRx1/STRx.5 damage. Others will sooner or later appear saying that since it is a two-handed weapon that means you always get STRx1.5/STRx1.5 because the rules don't specifically say you don't.
I'm pretty sure the rules say something like "when using both ends of a double weapon it counts as two weapon fighting" and "Two weapon fighting = +str on main hand and +1/2 Str on offhand".. or something like that. Some people tend to try not to see things they don't want to see lol....
Maybe I missed something but I'm pretty sure it's spelled out.
I'm pretty sure the rules say something like "when using both ends of a double weapon it counts as two weapon fighting" and "Two weapon fighting = +str on main hand and +1/2 Str on offhand".. or something like that. Some people tend to try not to see things they don't want to see lol....
Maybe I missed something but I'm pretty sure it's spelled out.
I'd hate to disappoint Simon by not posting the opposing view... :)
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
Bolding mine. This text refers to attack penalties only.
In the Two-Weapon Fighting section in the Combat chapter, only attack penalties are mentioned. These are the only sections of text that address Double Weapons. Thus, there is nothing to overrule (that I'm aware of) the general rule of Two-Handed Weapons deal 1.5xSTR damage.
I'm pretty sure the rules say something like "when using both ends of a double weapon it counts as two weapon fighting" and "Two weapon fighting = +str on main hand and +1/2 Str on offhand".. or something like that. Some people tend to try not to see things they don't want to see lol....
Maybe I missed something but I'm pretty sure it's spelled out.I'd hate to disappoint Simon by not posting the opposing view... :)
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.Bolding mine. This text refers to attack penalties only.
In the Two-Weapon Fighting section in the Combat chapter, only attack penalties are mentioned. These are the only sections of text that address Double Weapons. Thus, there is nothing to overrule (that I'm aware of) the general rule of Two-Handed Weapons deal 1.5xSTR damage.
This debate came up a long time ago, and they deal damage just like two separate weapons. I will try to find the post for you. I don't want another 10 pages of an old thread to be repeated. Keep your eyes glued to this thread. :)
Meh a singular attack whilst using both hands in the style of a two handed weapon I'd pay 1.5... using both ends = normal.
Thats how I read it.
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end game argument with support --> two handed fighting(rules of the game part 3
First example: Alcantar has a base attack bonus of +7, a Strength bonus of +3, and two longswords, one with +2 enhancement and one masterwork.
Fighting with a Double Weapon: Now let's suppose Alcantar has the same ability scores as in the first example and the following feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (two-bladed sword), Weapon Focus (two-bladed sword), and Weapon Specialization (two-bladed sword).
Let's also assume that Alcantar has a two-bladed sword that has one end with a +2 enhancement bonus and one end that's just masterwork. The bonuses and penalties when Alcantar attacks with both ends of the two-bladed sword are mostly the same as in the previous example, except that Alcantar gain the benefits of his Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization for both ends of the weapon. The two-bladed sword also deals a little more damage, as shown below:
Attacks and Bonus Damage*
Primary hand +11/+6 1d8+7
Off hand +10 1d8+3
*The damage bonus for the double weapon's primary end is +3 Strength, +2 enhancement, +2 weapon specialization. The damage bonus for the double weapon's off-hand end is +1 Strength (1/2 of +3) and +2 weapon specialization.
Now before the "this isn't 3.5" argument comes up. The verbage is the same(as in 3.5), and it shows intent.
...The verbage is the same(as in 3.5), and it shows intent.
I'm not going to bother checking the 3.5 rules because I'm reasonably sure that's what was intended too. My contention right from the start however has been that it's simply not what's written.
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This part of weapons clearly dictates intent of the system regarding how something is held. Having to spell out every single thing would make the rulebook an encyclopedia set.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.
Used as Light = 0.5xSTR
Used as one handed: 1xSTR
Used as two handed: 1.5x STR
"It doesn't say I can't so I must be able to do it".....terrible...
To use this weapon you have to spent a feat, I would houserule 1,5x Str to both blades, regardless if you attack with both or only with one.
I personally think that the way it is intended to work is clear and anyone who says "But they didn't say you can't!" and tries to do more damage in a munchkin...
However in the interest of giving a nod to my internal muchkin and giving a healthy alternative to GMs who do think it should work that way: You could compromise and say that the main hand does 1.5x Str and the off-hand does 1x Str.
but just letting the player ignore the weaker off-hand effect is ridiculous.
IMHO
Just a thought.
PS: If you disagree don't bother flaming me I most likely won't be back to check this lol.
the way i see it is there is really no bonus to double weapons (they require a special feat for most characters to use, unless you are a half-orc, then you can only get access to one of them, or a dwarf the other)
they aren't in anyway better than fighting with and one handed weapon and a light weapon (a dwarf with TWF, why not use a dwarf axe and a hand axe? its better than the urgrosh, or a dwarf axe and a short sword)
so there really is no point to them and their extra feat to use them UNLESS they allow TWF AND STR bonus to both heads from THF.
Then its worth it to use them.
You also have to think, how many magic double headed weapons do you find?
the average TWF will be able to find something for the left hand and something for the right hand separately, but again the double weapon fighter gets gimped (the only real bonus to the orc axe and the double sword is you get -2/2 for a higher dice damage on the "off hand" head... ie d8/d8 instead of d8/d6... its just not really worth the feat.
So anyway....I allow it, and encourage it. If for no other reason than to see people use the weapons and do something ELSE with their feats other than the standard feat trap trees....
"yawn" another two weapon fighter, what will they dream up next!
This part of weapons clearly dictates intent of the system regarding how something is held. Having to spell out every single thing would make the rulebook an encyclopedia set.
..."It doesn't say I can't so I must be able to do it".....terrible...
Not at all what I'm saying.
Rules say that double weapons are two-handed weapons. Rules say that two-handed weapons deal 1.5xSTR damage. Rules say that when two-weapon fighting with a double weapon you treat it as one-handed and light weapons for attack penalties only.
Had they simply left the text to say that you treat the offhand as a light weapon, period, then we wouldn't have a problem. The fact that they called it out as applying specifically to attack penalties alone leaves open this interpretation.
Applying 1.5 Str bonus to Double weapons would just make two weapon fighting with any other weapon pointless. Why using a feat that allows me to use 1xStr with twf when I can use that feat to get a weapon that applies 1.5xStr?
Because exotic weapons are by definition rare. It's relatively easy for a longsword/shortsword fighter to find new and shiny upgrades for his chosen weapons. A Dire Flail user is likely going to have to stick with the same weapon through his career, which is fine as long as you've got a friendly caster and downtime for the upgrades. Plus there's still the feat tax, which I think you tried to discount in your post, but the point wasn't clear. TWF is feat intensive. Using a double weapon (with the exception of the Quarterstaff) requires an additional feat on top of everything else required.
Rules say that double weapons are two-handed weapons. Rules say that two-handed weapons deal 1.5xSTR damage.
Actually, the rules say:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round
Rules say that double weapons are two-handed weapons. Rules say that two-handed weapons deal 1.5xSTR damage.Actually, the rules say:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round
Which just gives the option of attack with only one end at a time, so that it's clear that you don't HAVE to use two-weapon fighting when using a double weapon. That paragraph has nothing to do with the issue.
Removed a post - keep it civil, please.
The moderators sure have been busy the past few days.
The way I see it, you have the right of it reefwood. I think a lot of ambiguity got entered into the game when the terms "to hit" and "to damage" were essentially removed. If they still existed, the text regarding double weapons would say he incurs all the normal to hit penalties of fighting with two weapons.
Some people read attack penalties just as "to hit", others read it as "to hit" and "to damage". After all, damage is part of the attack so why wouldn't an attack penalty include the MH/OH damage that comes with fighting with two weapons?
Removed a post - keep it civil, please.
I noticed it was mine, didn't seem all that uncivil, can I know what qualified it to be removed?
Might have been in response to an uncivil post.
Yeah I just didn't think I was being uncivil, I used the word stupid but I wasn't referring to any person so I don't think that was it.
It was a sarcastic post but it had a point. Just wanted to know the reason so I don't lose future posts over something I did not think was uncivil
Sorry to necrobump, but its better than starting a new thread...
What about the double slice feat?
The way I see it with Double Slice (which gives the offhand your str bonus for your attack), your two attacks get full str 1.5 damage. Your str bonus is in fact 1.5 for the primary attack because it is a two handed weapon.
These arguments above me saying a double axe is not a two handed weapon is absurd, it's listed as a two handed weapon. You can use it one handed per RAW (although I somewhat agree with the size limitation arguments, but that's not importante here) but when used with two hands, it's a two handed weapon.
As far as I'm concerned, with a double axe and double slice, I get 1.5 str damage for my primary and offhand attacks. Agree or Disagree?
double slice has no effect on power attack for ant weapon. if you have your offhand still on,y does 50% PA damage. the change to str damage for double slice does not affect anything other than what it says.
The double weapons are three types in one. 2 handed when using one end with 2 hands, 1 handed when using one end in one hand, and Main Hand off hand when using BOTH ends.
If you're using it for TWF it is NOT considered a 2 handed weapon. It is considered 2 seperate weapons. This is backed up by the enchantment requirements, both ends have to be enchanted seperately.
Also, visualize these weapons in use. A 2 handed sword is being brought down with BOTH hands in that single motion. A quarterstaff is being swung right hand-left hand-right hand.
So, no, Double Slice doesn't grant you 2 handed bonuses.
Edit: You need to look beyond the listing in the weapon table. It's pretty clear double weapons are treated differently than other weapons.
I'm not buying it. Is there a quasi official opinion out there?
I see no difference visualizing power between a two handed sword and a double axe. You do not switch hands for the off hand you use both hands to bring the ends around. While RAW says you can use a double weapon as one handed, nowhere does it say using it with two hands makes it count as a one handed weapon for each side.
As for PA, if I get the 1.5 bonus for the two handed weapon, I get the extra damage for it from the offhand weapon. That's clear. If it counts as a one handed offhand weapon, you don't. Which brings us back to needing a ruling on two handed double weapons. If one exists...
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The double weapon entry clearly states you use both ends as if using a main hand weapon and off weapon. It says as if fighting with TWO weapons, not one. Please explain how one uses 2 hands on 2 seperate weapons. Not to mention it states the OFF HAND END is treated as a LIGHT WEAPON.
Vestigial arms.
*Professor Chaos will be back, GYAHAHA.*
The double weapon entry clearly states you use both ends as if using a main hand weapon and off weapon. It says as if fighting with TWO weapons, not one. Please explain how one uses 2 hands on 2 seperate weapons. Not to mention it states the OFF HAND END is treated as a LIGHT WEAPON.
Vestigial arms.
*Professor Chaos will be back, GYAHAHA.*
Marilith, dude. Marilith.
it's not really hotly debated unless you call ignoring the rules to get what you want a debate.
a doublebweapon can be
a 1 handed weapon and a light offhand weapon
it can be a 2 weapon
it can also be a 1 weapon held I'n two hands
or a 1 h weapon held I'n 1 hand if it's a weapon 1 size lower.
for one of the above it gets 1.5 PA. the important thing here is it is never more than 1 of the above at the same time. if you are using it as a 2h weapon you ate not twf with it. if you do anything else you do not get 1.5 PA.
unless you ignore this there is not actually a debate.
it's not really hotly debated unless you call ignoring the rules to get what you want a debate.
a doublebweapon can be
a 1 handed weapon and a light offhand weapon
it can be a 2 weapon
it can also be a 1 weapon held I'n two hands
or a 1 h weapon held I'n 1 hand if it's a weapon 1 size lower.
for one of the above it gets 1.5 PA. the important thing here is it is never more than 1 of the above at the same time. if you are using it as a 2h weapon you ate not twf with it. if you do anything else you do not get 1.5 PA.
unless you ignore this there is not actually a debate.
If your interpretation is correct... Please tell me the point of the Quarterstaff Master feat...
By employing a number of different stances and techniques, you can wield a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon. At the start of your turn, you decide whether or not you are going to wield the quarterstaff as a one-handed or two-handed weapon. When you wield it as a one-handed weapon, your other hand is free, and you cannot use the staff as a double weapon. You can take the feat Weapon Specialization in the quarterstaff even if you have no levels in fighter.
A quarterstaff is a two handed double weapon, if RAW is it can be used one handed automatically with only one attack, well then why the hell is there a feat to let you do the exact same thing. No, the feat makes it quite clear that double weapons remain two handed weapons, and the one handed use language is strictly for oversized creatures using smaller two-handed weapons.
Edit: I see what you're saying, and that you would say the feat allows its use without go down a size, I just still don't agree...
it's not really hotly debated unless you call ignoring the rules to get what you want a debate.
a doublebweapon can be
a 1 handed weapon and a light offhand weapon
it can be a 2 weapon
it can also be a 1 weapon held I'n two hands
or a 1 h weapon held I'n 1 hand if it's a weapon 1 size lower.
for one of the above it gets 1.5 PA. the important thing here is it is never more than 1 of the above at the same time. if you are using it as a 2h weapon you ate not twf with it. if you do anything else you do not get 1.5 PA.
unless you ignore this there is not actually a debate.
I take umbrage at this because I am distinctly NOT ignoring rules. The rules as written can be interpreted as you have above quite easily. It probably even makes sense to do so. My issue is, and always has been, that it's not what they actually say.
Reefwood has quoted all the relevant sections of the rules above, and I don't dispute any of them. What I dispute is his conclusion that "a double weapon in two hands is...not a two-handed weapon." All of the references to treating a double weapon as One-handed-Primary and Light-Offhand weapons refer to attack penalties only. There is nothing written to contradict the general rule that two-handed weapons deal 1.5xSTR damage, and that double weapons are two-handed weapons.
And again, this is not a matter of the designers needing to add more text to qualify corner cases. In fact, if the 1.0/0.5 interpretation is correct, all they need to do is remove text to make it clear. Simply say "When using a double weapon in Two-Weapon Combat, treat one end as a one-handed weapon and the other as a light weapon." No references to penalties, attack or otherwise. This was not done, which leads to this ambiguity and confusion.
I'm somewhat confused... If my position were right, what would be the point of the sentence on page 141 of the core under double weapons which states that:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it.
The other problem I have with my position is it states that you suffer attack penalties as if wielding a a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If it counts as a light weapon, then per page 179:
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your str bonus. You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
If the off blade counts as a light weapon then even if it's still wielded with two hands the str bonus does not not go 1.5. Of course the double section says apply only the attack penalties and not damage penalties so it remains open for interpretation or clarification.
I'd really like some...
I'm somewhat confused... If my position were right, what would be the point of the sentence on page 141 of the core under double weapons which states that:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it.
This just gives the option of not having to use Two-Weapon Combat with a Double Weapon. If you only have a standard action with which to attack (because you moved in the round, for instance), you can attack with one end as if it were a normal two-handed weapon. This also allows characters who haven't taken the Two-Weapon Fighting feat to still use Double weapons effectively.
The other problem I have with my position is it states that you suffer attack penalties as if wielding a a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If it counts as a light weapon, then per page 179:
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your str bonus. You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.If the off blade counts as a light weapon then even if it's still wielded with two hands the str bonus does not not go 1.5. Of course the double section says apply only the attack penalties and not damage penalties so it remains open for interpretation or clarification.
I'd really like some...
Bolding mine, and it's the answer to your question. You treat the offhand end as a light weapon only for attack penalties. No mention of damage (penalty or otherwise).
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Edit: I see what you're saying, and that you would say the feat allows its use without go down a size, I just still don't agree...
The lead developer for Pathfinder is Jason Bulmahn. Jason agrees with the double-weapon used one handed must be undersized for the user perspective. The confusion derives the fact that PF could not use, and did not replace, the clarifying text in the PHB that spelled this out. However, there is a tremendous amount of inertia regarding retaining the "double weapons can be used with one hand" interpretation due to a conflicting position from the Creative Director, James Jacobs. Both of them have posted these positions in forum posts, which have also been stated as being non-official. Until there is errata or a FAQ entry, there will continue to be disagreement about this.
A double weapon held in 2 hands for the purpose of 2 weapon fighting is treated as 2 seperate weapons. A primary weapon and off hand weapon. The rules are pretty clear about fighting with 2 weapons. You don't get 2handed strength bonuses for a weapon in each hand.
I would say the staffmaster feat is simply to allow you to use it 1 handed. That's all it says.
"You can use a double weapon to make an extra OFF HAND attack AS IF you were fighting with TWO WEAPONS"
This is taken from the double weapon section. Please explain how a non-alchemist human is using both hands on 2 different weapons.
Here's the full section you quoted from:
Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.
The "penalties" in the last sentence refers to the attack penalties listed in the table provided in that section. At no point does it state anything regarding damage modifiers, thus the general two-handed rule still applies.
However, I will give you this. If you treat the two sentences in that section as unrelated (as you do), then your interpretation stands. Note that it doesn't say that the primary attack is treated as a one-handed weapon though, so at the very least the primary attack is still at 1.5xSTR.
This is why we're looking for clarification.
Yes, it says you are fighting as if using 2 weapons. They even mention one end being an off hand attack. The second sentence deals ONLY with the second, off hand attack. The rules are clear about weilding a light weapon in your off hand. Also, the second sentence doesn't saying anything about attack either. It simply says "the penalties apply as if the off hand weapon were a light weapon". No mention of a table or where to reference that sentence. Are you arguing that applying 1/2 strength bonus is not a penalty?
The subsection quoted has to be taken in context of the whole. All references to "penalties" are to the attack penalties you get while Two-Weapon Fighting. Applying 1/2 STR to off-hand attacks is not a penalty, it is a different modifier entirely. Penalties are explicitly defined:
Penalty: Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score. Penalties do not have a type and most penalties stack with one another.
The attack penalties presented in the Two-Weapon Fighting section meet this definition.