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I'm feeling a little stupid tonight, and want to make sure I've been doing this right. Humanoids with natural attacks throw me off a bit. The troglodyte for example, does everything that confuses me, so I'll use it as an example.
Melee club +2 (1d6+1), claw –3 (1d4), bite –3 (1d4) or2 claws +2 (1d4+1), bite +2 (1d4+1)
So this means that if armed, the trog can make a single swing with his club as a standard attack, but gets the club, a claw and a bite with a full attack.
Unarmed, he gets a single claw on a standard attack or two separate claw attacks and a single bite as a full attack.
His BAB is irrelevant to the number of attacks he can make, because he is using natural attacks.
Is all of this correct? Where are my errors?
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Yes, that looks right to me. A full attack with weapons grants your primary natural attack at -5. Although I was under the impression that you could only do this with one attack? I guess you can do it with any of them, so long as they are primaries.
A full attack with natural weapons only grants natural primaries at normal rate and secondaries at -5.
Either way, it looks like a trog with a club is better off dropping the club before making that full attack.
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Yes, that looks right to me. A full attack with weapons grants your primary natural attack at -5. Although I was under the impression that you could only do this with one attack? I guess you can do it with any of them, so long as they are primaries.
A full attack with natural weapons only grants natural primaries at normal rate and secondaries at -5.
Either way, it looks like a trog with a club is better off dropping the club before making that full attack.
So, according the the stat block above, which was copied right from the PRD, he does get 3 separate attacks with a full attack action; either club, claw, bite, or claw 1, claw 2, bite?
To the best of our understanding... yes.
Why thats fair... have no clue.
So, according the the stat block above, which was copied right from the PRD, he does get 3 separate attacks with a full attack action; either club, claw, bite, or claw 1, claw 2, bite?Yes, that looks right to me. A full attack with weapons grants your primary natural attack at -5. Although I was under the impression that you could only do this with one attack? I guess you can do it with any of them, so long as they are primaries.
A full attack with natural weapons only grants natural primaries at normal rate and secondaries at -5.
Either way, it looks like a trog with a club is better off dropping the club before making that full attack.
Basically if a creature uses a manufactured weapon as part of a Full round Attack it can make any and all Natural attacks it has at -5 provided the limb for the natural attack is not being used with the weapon.
In the case of the Troglodyte the 1 clawed hand is holding the club so he cannot claw with that.
The Only part of this all that appears un clear is where both goring and biting are concerned, the 'cant do both with a limb' bit seems to concern the use of natural attacks as secondary attacks.
The only monster i can think of with both a Gore and a Bite the Gargoyle they are both primary attacks.
anyhow hope this extra info did not confuse things.
Basically if a creature uses a manufactured weapon as part of a Full round Attack it can make any and all Natural attacks it has at -5 provided the limb for the natural attack is not being used with the weapon.
Yep.
Do does this mean a Human can do
Sword, Punch -5, Bite -5, kick -10. ?
No fair ;P
Humanoids should get: Ok, let say humans do not get a bite...
They should at least get 2 slam attacks for.
Medium: 1d4 damage.
Small: 1d3 damage.
However, if you're going to be making unarmed strikes, since that is a "weapon" and not a "natural weapon" you'll be taking the twf penalties as well.
errors?
Melee club +2 (1d6+1), claw –3 (1d4), bite –3 (1d4) or2 claws +2 (1d4+1), bite +2 (1d4+1)typo it would be
Melee club +2 (1d6+1), bite –3 (1d4) or 2 claws +2 (1d4+1), bite -3 (1d4+1)
Actually this is not a typo; both Claws and Bite are considered Primary attacks, so there is no -5 to any of them.
However, if natural attacks are used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon, the weapon is condidered a Primary attack (and so it swings without penalties except for those granted by iterative attacks), while all natural weapons becomes Secondary attacks, regardless of their initial denomination; in this case the Multiattack feat would become extremely good, since all those natural attacks would be at only -2 (instead of -5).
Just my 2c.
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errors?
Melee club +2 (1d6+1), claw –3 (1d4), bite –3 (1d4) or2 claws +2 (1d4+1), bite +2 (1d4+1)typo it would be
Melee club +2 (1d6+1), bite –3 (1d4) or 2 claws +2 (1d4+1), bite -3 (1d4+1)Actually this is not a typo; both Claws and Bite are considered Primary attacks, so there is no -5 to any of them.
However, if natural attacks are used in conjunction with a manufactured weapon, the weapon is condidered a Primary attack (and so it swings without penalties except for those granted by iterative attacks), while all natural weapons becomes Secondary attacks, regardless of their initial denomination; in this case the Multiattack feat would become extremely good, since all those natural attacks would be at only -2 (instead of -5).
Correct for the natural attacks. The club attack is in error, though. In Pathfinder, the manufactured weapon in this situation takes penalties as if fighting with two weapons, treating the natural attacks as a light off-hand weapon. The troglodyte doesn't have Two-Weapon Fighting, so it takes -4 to the club attack, which should read club -2 (1d6+1). The troglodyte would be better off, or to put it another way, the stat block would be clearer, without trying to get in the claw and bite attacks.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The club attack is in error, though. In Pathfinder, the manufactured weapon in this situation takes penalties as if fighting with two weapons, treating the natural attacks as a light off-hand weapon.
Is this 100%? The barbarian's animal fury says nothing about natural attacks being treated as TWF. Just curious.
Twf and natural attacks are in. No way connected. There is something to reduce penalties for natural attacks as secondary weapons it is calledmultiattack I believe and it changes the penalty to-2.
The reason the extra natural attacks work fine like this is in the troglodyte example he probably won't hit anyone with them short of bad luck.
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The club attack is in error, though. In Pathfinder, the manufactured weapon in this situation takes penalties as if fighting with two weapons, treating the natural attacks as a light off-hand weapon.Is this 100%? The barbarian's animal fury says nothing about natural attacks being treated as TWF. Just curious.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes .. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks .. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
This has changed from D&D 3.5.
The barbarian's Animal Fury gives the information needed to resolve the bite attack, since it becomes a secondary attack for him. It probably should mention that this also affects his weapon attacks, unless it was intended not to. I think that's worth a FAQ call.
You don't get TWF penalties for adding in natural attacks. PF Core contradicts the Bestiary on this issue and the designers have been very clear that the Bestiary is the correct one.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Note: unarmed strike, natural weapon, and melee weapon are three different things.
Your unarmed strike does not take up a limb (it can be anything from a kick to a headbutt), but for purposes of your attack sequence, an unarmed strike is treated as a light weapon attack. That means you can get iterative attacks and you can two-weapon fight -- but the unarmed strike is NOT a natural weapon.
You don't get TWF penalties for adding in natural attacks. PF Core contradicts the Bestiary on this issue and the designers have been very clear that the Bestiary is the correct one.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
Thanks for that reply .. I've been following this thread for my claw and bite half-orc barbarian :)
-TDL
Now what happens when you get a high enough BAB? Using the existing example of the troglodyte: druid level 9 with a BAB of +6+1 does that mean he now has Claw +6(1d4+1) Claw +6(1d4+1) Bite +6(1d4+1) Bite +1(1d4+1)?
Now what happens when you get a high enough BAB? Using the existing example of the troglodyte: druid level 9 with a BAB of +6+1 does that mean he now has Claw +6(1d4+1) Claw +6(1d4+1) Bite +6(1d4+1) Bite +1(1d4+1)?
No, he gets either club +6(1d6+1) club +1(1d6+1) claw +1(1d4) bite +1(1d4)
or
claw +6(1d4+1) claw +6(1d4+1) bite +6(1d4+1)