110 years starting age. What do they spend a century on before reaching the competence of a human teen? Are elves functionally disabled? Do they spend all that time practising aloof expressions in the mirror and brushing their hair? :P
They're unmotivated compared to humans. At least, that's always how I've understood it. How else do you get a racial bonus to intelligence, 110 years to age of maturity, and somehow not learn more feats and skills than a human?
You can be intelligent and as dumb as a post at the same time. Elves could have a better command over what they do know, but take extraordinarily longer to ingrain new thought patterns into their rigid, non-adaptive minds.
Their ancient greeks who love to dance and drink wine coolers...
Also, you can have all the time in the world for things humans have to rush. You don't have to worry about having just 10-20 years of peak intellectual and physical ability. You have hundreds of such years. Why so serious ?
I'VE always seen it that way.
Also, you can have all the time in the world for things humans have to rush. You don't have to worry about having just 10-20 years of peak intellectual and physical ability. You have hundreds of such years. Why so serious ?
+1. Not all people hone their skills every day, especially if it seems that they have time.
I have always pictured them maturing physically at about half the speed of humans. So come say 38 they begin to have that first weeding of brains cells and mylineation is completed and more thoroughly than in a human. (I think I spelled that wrong but I'm on my way to bed on my black berry). Or perhaps they don't have the human neuron die back which would explain increased brain power. However this would make it take far longer for the brain to settle in to its adult patterns and rhythms i.e. The teenage years would last close to 20 years maybe a little more. Then you would need time to learn your trade which with elven longevity why rush take your time get to know each part of your profession with a masters love of his craft. If later you want to do something else you have a 1000 year in which to do it relax learn everything you can and make it perfect not mechanically so but artistically so for everything is an art and art can not be rushed. So by the time they are ready to head out into the world the would a 100 or more.
Okay folks night
The way I see this, is that it take them 110 years to reach maturity in the eyes of their brethren. Remember that in most modern industrialized society, we consider the age of maturity (legal age) between 18 and 21. But in some other societies, men are consider adult as soon as they can hunt and women as soon as they can bare a child...
As I see it, the light hearted nature of the elves combined to their longevity allow them to learn at a slower pace mostly by life experience compare to a human who learn in academy. They are not dumber, but their learning rate reflect their easy going nature.
Just my 2 cc
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I agree wth Mordo. The long life span of elvs make them more pasiv with the speed they learn there craft, trade, or what ever they do.As well a slower physical growth then humans who have about 60 to 80 years to crame everything they can into. Thats WHY humans get the extera feat at 1st level and skill rank every time they gain another level in there short sniff of a life.
Because of their long lives, elves would have what would appear to humans to be stagnated culture. They don't have the drive for advancement and improvements that humans have.
Elven society would see no need for industry and production.
While a human weaponsmith might produce 3 longswords per month, an elven smith might make take a year or more to make 1. He would pick up the project, lovingly work on one component at a time, perfecting it and redoing it until they have the results they want.
Odds are good that they would generate mostly masterwork items.
While humans might spend a "day" at the zoo, an elf would spend a month or more visiting the zoo. Spending a day or two just watching each exibit and contemplating it.
Just because they don't reach what their race considers maturity until a century has passed does not mean that they have to spend 10 years in potty training.
Elves don't have to worry about saving money for retirment or having kids before they get too old. They would seem flighty,care free or even lazy to other races who are constantly fighting the clock to get things done. Elves don't worry about tommorow because it will always be there.
They can take their time learning because there is little pressure to get it done.
For the sake of being able to actually propagate the species I've always assumed they mature physically and mentally at roughly the rate of humans until about mid to upper teens (15-19). After all what woman/couple/person/elf in their right mind would have a child if it meant having a screaming poop machine (ie baby) for 30 years. Then to have a teenager for another 25. If elves had to deal with that for 50+ years NO ONE would propagate and the species would die out. Or for those that did propagate the cases of child abandonment (or worse) would be upwards of 90%.
I've always assumed elves were simply "young adults" longer and at 110 years their "Maturity" would be at a mental equivalent of a modern human in their late twenties.
Races of the Wilds offers an explanation for this. You may or may not want to use this as a basis in your PF games, but RoW states that elves reach physical maturity around the age of 25. They are not considered to have comeof age in elven society until the age of 100, though. Elves can be just as developed as a young adult human by the time they're in their early 20s, but elves tend to take things at a slower pace, and are more contemplative. In their younger years, they'll likely spend more time at play than humans, and as they grow older, they would prefer to dedicate large amounts of time to learned a single skill or craft at a time as opposed to juggling multiple facets of learning as a human would. Elves develop more independantly than humans, learning what they wish to and at their own pace - their often idylic societies allow for this pace as elven cultures are usuallies fighting for survival from day to day as humans are.
So by the age of 100, most elves have rounded out their interests and reportoires, but RoW also states there are plenty of exceptions. There are some elves that exhibit the same drive and dynamic approach to life that humans do, and these individuals are usually striking out by the age of 50 - with other demihuman races being unable to distinguish them from their older kin.
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Long lived species such as elves and dwarves are purely the stuff of fantasy. No sentient being in the "real world" comes anything close, so real world explanations will always present some difficulties relating to ecology etc.
Such long lives often make for great tales and fantasy characters, and much of the above makes great sense for rationalising why elves are as they are game wise.
I have played a long lived Dwarf (200+ years) and a "young" elf (100ish). This was in the Forgotten Realms campaign, and it meant there was a LOT of history in their lives. This made for a great back story, and when you consider the levels of most NPC's, didn't cause much in the way of inconsistency. Neither character started at first level however, they were 7th and 4th respectively.
It is hard if you put nothing into knowledges or back story however to justify your characters centuries of existence in my opinion...
So, totally, off topic... slightly off topic... What about dwarves? Stereotypical dwarves, not from any one setting. They can live two to four times as long as a human, but for some reason, they seem far more industrious. Elven weaponsmiths may make 10 masterwork weapons in their entire life with their perfectionist pursuits, but a dwarf weaponsmith probably turns out considerably more than that, and in a shorter time.
Dwarves enjoy their drinking (more ale, less wine) and partying (more drunken guffawing, less dancing), but it doesn't affect their time management. I don't see a stern dwarf father who guards the tunnels everyday from duergar letting his 35 year old son sit around the house and play drinking games with the guys because he has 5 more years of "boyhood." I imagine the father would want his son out learning something useful instead of being idle all the time; doing something that promotes the clan name and not being a layabout. That's a bad habit to get into at a young age and I just don't think dwarves let that happen.
So, totally, off topic... slightly off topic... What about dwarves? Stereotypical dwarves, not from any one setting. They can live two to four times as long as a human, but for some reason, they seem far more industrious. Elven weaponsmiths may make 10 masterwork weapons in their entire life with their perfectionist pursuits, but a dwarf weaponsmith probably turns out considerably more than that, and in a shorter time.
Dwarves enjoy their drinking (more ale, less wine) and partying (more drunken guffawing, less dancing), but it doesn't affect their time management. I don't see a stern dwarf father who guards the tunnels everyday from duergar letting his 35 year old son sit around the house and play drinking games with the guys because he has 5 more years of "boyhood." I imagine the father would want his son out learning something useful instead of being idle all the time; doing something that promotes the clan name and not being a layabout. That's a bad habit to get into at a young age and I just don't think dwarves let that happen.
On the other side, I think the dwarves are really focuses and are spending a lot of time to understand all aspect of their skill, so when they will be said to have learn their skills, they'll know how and why it should be done that way. Let say a dwarf who learns weapon smithing, will not only learn to shape steel into a blade, but also the interaction of forging and quenching, that a certain edge design will produce a specific damage through flesh, but a different cut through wood etc.
Mechanically speaking, you won't get more than the proficiency, but roleplaying wise you could have your dwarven character talking forever on the subject.
It's a game balance thing. If elves (and dwarves, to a lesser extent) were done as they should be, then they would no longer be available as player races.
Julian nailed it on the head. Also, Elves and Dwarfs get lots of racial ability's so i would assume that this is what they are spending their time on before taking up a adventuring class.
After all, elves can use swords, reapers, short & long regular or compound bows. Learn to be more perceptive of their surroundings, and learn about magic items.
Dwarves learn all that stuff about apprising, construction, underground, fighting giants, craft, etc, etc,
End the end, They spend time learning stuff, that has to do with their race. This just does not show up as skills for players to get to use.
((Last: Game write by Humans, for Humans, will be bis toward Humans. After all if we were all elves, writing this game.... humans would be nothing more than Half-Orcs. And all elves would get 1 extra feat and +1 skill point per level.))
I think this is one of the ways to use Traits to help define more of what your character has picked up in his life. In addition, there is a feat in the APG that helps mimic what they could know as well. Breadth of Experience grants you a +2 on Knowledge and Profession checks and allows you to make them untrained. You need to be at least 100 years old to take the feat.
So, totally, off topic... slightly off topic... What about dwarves? Stereotypical dwarves, not from any one setting.
All dwarves are stereotypical dwarves. They're exactly the same in every setting.
Even Paizo gave up on them - while Golarion has a new take on elves, halflings, gnomes, goblins, drow, ogres and lots and lots of other critters, dwarves are the same as always.
Dwarf ... out of sight out of mind
Elves don't take much longer to what passes for maturity in human terms, but they need to have experienced a full century at the least before other elves consider them adults.
Couple that with a more relaxed attitude towards reaching goals and you get the discrepancy you see here.
Humans are ambitious, driven, frantic. That means that they're relatively quick to reach maturity, but also that they will consider themselves to be adults before they actually are. They start to do grown-up things when they're still half a kid.
Plus, the time a race needs to reach maturity is a very bad indicator for learning disabilities. After all, half-orcs are considered to reach maturity 1 year earlier than humans, and orcs 3 years! And nobody would claim that orcs are smarter than humans.
Elves (and dwarves) are not human. Their approach to the world is alien to ours. A lot of explanations above go into this in a little more detail, but the salient point is that elves are not humans with pointy ears.
It's a game balance thing. If elves (and dwarves, to a lesser extent) were done as they should be, then they would no longer be available as player races.
+1
It is still kind of dumb though.
One thing you can do to make it make more sense is use the concept of wunderlust. This works for both Dwarves and Elves. Both cultures encourage the young to take their time and study all facets of something before moving on, contemplating each learned lesson for weeks before learning the next lesson.
However, both species are susceptable to wunderlust. This can strike at any age, from bare physical maturity (25ish for both species) all the way up to adulthood.
Once wunderlust overcomes a member of either species, they become as driven as humans, and begin learning at the same frantic pace (they take a level of a PC class and start adventuring). This is why they suddenly begin to advance at the same pace as the humans they adventure with.
It's rare enough that many dwarves and elves never get wunderlust. Just the ones that go adventuring.
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When the aliens first came to earth, they assumed wildebeest had to be superior to humans, too. It takes human babies about a YEAR to learn how to walk. Wildebeest figure it out in minutes.
But... its obviously just game balance. Personally, I always liked Shadowrun's/Earthdawn's way of dealing with the long-lived elves. They age, pretty much, just like humans until sometime in their 20s or 30s (with exceptions). Then the aging mechanism just turns off for a few centuries (and, in Shadowrun's time, elves have only been around a few decades so no one really knows how long elves live and some assume they're all immortal).
If you've ever read R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf Trilogy, I believe Drizzt was in his 30s (or thereabout) when he went off on his own and he could hold his own against other trained humanoids and monsters.
With that precedent, an Elf would be physically and mentally able to do the same things a Human could. They just need the motivation.
Take the Drow for example. They enter school to learn combat (or magic) as soon as they are able because if they don't, another Drow will probably kill them.
So while 110 is the normal starting age for an Elf, I think, given the right motivation, they could start much earlier.
Races of the Wilds offers an explanation for this. You may or may not want to use this as a basis in your PF games, but RoW states that elves reach physical maturity around the age of 25. They are not considered to have comeof age in elven society until the age of 100, though. Elves can be just as developed as a young adult human by the time they're in their early 20s, but elves tend to take things at a slower pace, and are more contemplative. In their younger years, they'll likely spend more time at play than humans, and as they grow older, they would prefer to dedicate large amounts of time to learned a single skill or craft at a time as opposed to juggling multiple facets of learning as a human would. Elves develop more independantly than humans, learning what they wish to and at their own pace - their often idylic societies allow for this pace as elven cultures are usuallies fighting for survival from day to day as humans are.
So by the age of 100, most elves have rounded out their interests and reportoires, but RoW also states there are plenty of exceptions. There are some elves that exhibit the same drive and dynamic approach to life that humans do, and these individuals are usually striking out by the age of 50 - with other demihuman races being unable to distinguish them from their older kin.
^THIS!
While a human weaponsmith might produce 3 longswords per month, an elven smith might make take a year or more to make 1. He would pick up the project, lovingly work on one component at a time, perfecting it and redoing it until they have the results they want.
Odds are good that they would generate mostly masterwork items
Okay but I'm willing to bet the human expert can make better swords than the elf. Seeing as he has a bonus feat and if he's earns his living making swords, he probably spent it on Skill Focus: Craft (weaponsmithing).
Which leaves you without the 'better' part of 'slower but better'. In fact it leaves you with 'slower and worse.'
In addition on all the 'but elves have better rounded repertoires of skills' - they don't. Humans get a bonus skill point, Elves get a bonus to Int. Works out to the same number of skill points.
It's a game balance thing. If elves (and dwarves, to a lesser extent) were done as they should be, then they would no longer be available as player races.
Exactly.
I once played in a homebrew campaign world where the GM took the idea of virtually immortal elves to it's logical conclusion. Elves were not allowed for PC's since due to their long life even the average elf would have at least 8 to 10 class levels. The half-elf race was reskinned to be "elf touched", where the PC had some faint elven blood in their family (so your great, great grandfather/mother might have been an elf). The elf race from the PHB was reskinned as "elf blooded", where the player would have much more elven blood in their family (grandfather/mother was an elf). It was an interesting way to treat the longevity of elves.
Taking 20. (I can't remember if that's allowed on item crafting, but it should be. It just would take FOREVER to a human lol.)While a human weaponsmith might produce 3 longswords per month, an elven smith might make take a year or more to make 1. He would pick up the project, lovingly work on one component at a time, perfecting it and redoing it until they have the results they want.
Odds are good that they would generate mostly masterwork itemsOkay but I'm willing to bet the human expert can make better swords than the elf. Seeing as he has a bonus feat and if he's earns his living making swords, he probably spent it on Skill Focus: Craft (weaponsmithing).
Which leaves you without the 'better' part of 'slower but better'. In fact it leaves you with 'slower and worse.'
In addition on all the 'but elves have better rounded repertoires of skills' - they don't. Humans get a bonus skill point, Elves get a bonus to Int. Works out to the same number of skill points.
It isn't allowed, since there is a penalty for failure.
As if taking TWENTY times as long isn't penalty enough lol.
It isn't allowed, since there is a penalty for failure.
For crafting, you also ruin your materials if you fail badly.
Well, note that you *can* take 10 on Craft checks. Just not take 20.
I've never really understood the mindset of assuming all longer lived races should be "higher level." One, it kind of assumes a uniformity of time = character level, rather than potential + challenge = character level. I'm not saying that I'm better at thinking these things out, just that it never really bothered me much.
Two, it assumes that everything that a character can possibly learn is quantifiable in game terms. Dwarven craftsmen could learn, for example, how to keep weapons from normal wear and rusting, which means that a non-magical dwarven weapon will last much longer than a human weapon, but it has no bearing on any game stats for the weapon, but might take years to teach someone.
Elves might learn tons of poems and songs that don't relate to anything directly, or at least they might have, say the same two ranks of Knowledge (History) that a human has, but the human literally just learned the facts, where the elf figures out the facts from the twenty songs and fifteen poems he learned as a child.
Hell, in real life I know that 9 out of 10 people can learn something one way, and that 10th person will take forever to figure out the same thing. They aren't dumb people, it just does not click with them until it the "right" way to learn occurs to them.
I'm with Kyrt-ryder.
I'd rule that if you want to take 20x as long to craft something then you get to take 20 on your check.
It's not game breaking. It seems like a significant enough penalty to me.
I'm with Kyrt-ryder.
I'd rule that if you want to take 20x as long to craft something then you get to take 20 on your check.
It's not game breaking. It seems like a significant enough penalty to me.
It is directly against RAW but you are right that it is not an horrifically unreasonable house rule. If I used such a rule I would probably say he had to pay 20x cost too to represent his obsessive searching after only the most perfect materials, and discarding all else (or alternately, and more RAW, to pay for the 19 swords he ruined before he finally got it right).
For comparison's sake, an elf with say +10 to his Craft would turn out one masterwork longsword per approximately 105 weeks, taking 20. A human with the same modifier, taking 10, would turn out a sword of the same exact quality (MW), once per eight weeks. (It does not work out to 20x the time, because crafting speed is calculated off check result).
If you've ever read R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf Trilogy, I believe Drizzt was in his 30s (or thereabout) when he went off on his own and he could hold his own against other trained humanoids and monsters.
Something like that. And he went not just off on his own. He went into the Underdark wilderness. I think he survived there for a whole decade.
And that down below wilderness is like the nastiest surface wilderness squared.
Of course, he left not because he was no longer up to the dangers, but because he became truly bonkers - and he just walked into a deep gnome settlement and surrendered, just to have some humanoid company again (and deep gnomes and dark elves are mortal enemies there, just like beneath Golarion and probably most every other D&D/PF world with an underground realm and those two races).
Okay but I'm willing to bet the human expert can make better swords than the elf.
Nah. He might make more of them, and make more money, but he's probably not as good as an elven expert.
And more importantly, even if he were as good, or better, it would go to waste: For the human swordsmith, it's quantity that counts. If he can make the sword in 1 week, he can make and sell 4 per week. So he makes one per week, and they won't be the best he could do. They'll be adequate, good enough to be able to sell them.
The elf will have no problem working a couple of months on a sword. Where's the fire? Why the rush? They have time, they won't die after a couple of decades, so they might as well do it right.
So elves are better than everyone
Well, to sum it up: Elves are better than everyone else at being elves.
Humans are better than everyone else at being humans.
Dwarves are just good for nothing, except ammunition.