Do elves have learning disabilities?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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And about dwarves, I find it interesting that elves and dwarves require each other... almost like male and female. Apart from their height, what are dwarves but very very testosterone-poisoned men? Even the women have beards, you know. And apart from their sex, what are elves but very idealized women? Male elves do not have beards either. Drawing this correlation further would be outrageously funny. The entirety of elven society breaking out in emotionality and petty conflicts everywhere once every month would be only the first step...


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

I always felt the 110 years' starting age for elves is moronic. It's easy to see why:

They age physically at about the same rate as humans, so it's not because of decades of diaper changing.

Ashiel already debunked the 'elves age as quickly as humans' theory.

Quoting myself to put this link on the new page.


Sissyl wrote:
And about dwarves, I find it interesting that elves and dwarves require each other... almost like male and female. Apart from their height, what are dwarves but very very testosterone-poisoned men? Even the women have beards, you know.

No, they don't. Female dwarves have not been noted top explicitly have beards for a couple of decades.


Elves: This is Paizo's attempt to explain the moronity that is 110 years before adventuring. It's a good one, but even better would be to abolish it.

Dwarves: The myth of the dwarves is far, far older than "a couple of decades". Even if you just go to the D&D sources, I believe 2nd edition AD&D had female dwarven beards. Looking at the image of Sharindlar in the FR supplement Demihuman Deities gives a pretty clear view of this. 3rd edition did away with it, but that's only one decade now. And further, all myths are adapted. That does not change their basic concepts.

Hmmmmmm... why not a race consisting of dwarven males and elven females?


To OP: yes and they cause cancer.


Sissyl wrote:
Dwarves: The myth of the dwarves is far, far older than "a couple of decades". Even if you just go to the D&D sources, I believe 2nd edition AD&D had female dwarven beards.

Yes, which was a couple of decades ago. They no longer have beards. Get with the source material.


Pray tell, which source material is that? Pathfinder? 4th edition? Any of the other 2000 RPGs which contain dwarves? Or is the selection based on the latest published book containing dwarves?

It was 10 years ago. And even if not, apart from their height, what dwarven trait is not male at its core?


Sissyl wrote:

Pray tell, which source material is that? Pathfinder? 4th edition? Any of the other 2000 RPGs which contain dwarves? Or is the selection based on the latest published book containing dwarves?

It was 10 years ago. And even if not, apart from their height, what dwarven trait is not male at its core?

Pathfinder, as you are, indeed, on the boards for that product.

10 years ago was 3rd edition, btw, which contained no mention whatsoever of bearded female dwarves. There's a reason most modern fantasy sources have removed that bit of lore.


Sissyl wrote:

Pray tell, which source material is that? Pathfinder? 4th edition? Any of the other 2000 RPGs which contain dwarves? Or is the selection based on the latest published book containing dwarves?

It was 10 years ago. And even if not, apart from their height, what dwarven trait is not male at its core?

Awareness of one's surroundings will tell the insightful warrior all he needs to know for the coming trials.

(Which means as much as: Open your eyes and look where you are :P. This is the Pathfinder RPG part of the message boards. Unless said otherwise, that's the baseline for everything discussed in these boards).


I always considered it in cultural terms. For example, westerners are slowing have a show for extended childhood/adolescence. We live at home longer, we wait to get married until we are much older, and considering the demand for higher and higher education we are in school much longer before starting our careers. Sometimes our maturity reflects it, sometimes it doesn't.

I figured that it was more-or-less a socio-cultural outcome for a demand of certain qualities such as a vast knowledge of x, skills in y, and experience in z. Certainly their long life spans would have something to do with them taking their time with it as well.

I don't think it makes elves incapable of being mature, intelligent individuals before reaching 110, but I don't think their peers consider them truly independent or mature until then. It's the elven equivalent of being able to rent a car.


Female Dwarves with beards was a rather poor joke by Tolkien in a letter. He backtracked from bearded dwarven ladies and unfortunately some D&D fans never got the memo.

I've been playing since the early 80s and I can't remember a single instance of a female dwarf with a beard depicted in any TSR or WotC product.

I'm not really in favor of a slow rate of maturity for elven children. Biologically speaking, especially with the large number of predator species in the average D&D setting having to wait 110 until reaching physical maturity is pretty much insane.

Liberty's Edge

martinaj wrote:

Races of the Wilds offers an explanation for this. You may or may not want to use this as a basis in your PF games, but RoW states that elves reach physical maturity around the age of 25. They are not considered to have comeof age in elven society until the age of 100, though. Elves can be just as developed as a young adult human by the time they're in their early 20s, but elves tend to take things at a slower pace, and are more contemplative. In their younger years, they'll likely spend more time at play than humans, and as they grow older, they would prefer to dedicate large amounts of time to learned a single skill or craft at a time as opposed to juggling multiple facets of learning as a human would. Elves develop more independantly than humans, learning what they wish to and at their own pace - their often idylic societies allow for this pace as elven cultures are usuallies fighting for survival from day to day as humans are.

So by the age of 100, most elves have rounded out their interests and reportoires, but RoW also states there are plenty of exceptions. There are some elves that exhibit the same drive and dynamic approach to life that humans do, and these individuals are usually striking out by the age of 50 - with other demihuman races being unable to distinguish them from their older kin.

The drow would be another of those exceptions, as they tend to "mature" much sooner due to the fact that they live in a brutal society that seeks to use them earlier and earlier. Though they can potentially live long lives, they tend not to due to dying early from violent means.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

vuron wrote:
I've been playing since the early 80s and I can't remember a single instance of a female dwarf with a beard depicted in any TSR or WotC product.

They're there. For example, I was reading Dragon #109 just yesterday, and there's an article about dwarven demi-god / heroes, and the female entry has a beard, decorated with jewelry.


vuron wrote:


I've been playing since the early 80s and I can't remember a single instance of a female dwarf with a beard depicted in any TSR or WotC product.

One of the FR novels with Danillo Thann (the one with the dragon and the riddler) had a female dwarf who was just getting her first peach fuzz.


Chris Mortika wrote:

They're there. For example, I was reading Dragon #109 just yesterday, and there's an article about dwarven demi-god / heroes, and the female entry has a beard, decorated with jewelry.

The 2nd Edition Forgotten Realms supplement Dwarves' Deep also clearly mentions dwarven females having beards, and I know, but can't recall of the top of my head, that other Realms products mentioned this as well.

Specifically, its been mentioned that dwarven females often times keep bundled up in furs and/or wear heavy armor and grow out their beards, and keep they helmets on and hoods up, so that no one outside of a perceptive dwarf would pick up that they are, indeed, a female.

As far as depicted, as in pictures, I'm fairly certain there was a flash back in the Forgotten Realms comic by DC Comics back in the day of Minder before she became an iron golem that depicts her in armor with a beard, but I can't recall with 100% certainty that I'm remembering this correctly.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

I always felt the 110 years' starting age for elves is moronic. It's easy to see why:

They age physically at about the same rate as humans, so it's not because of decades of diaper changing.

Ashiel already debunked the 'elves age as quickly as humans' theory.

Considering that Merisiel is mentally deficient compared to the rest of her race, and a Forlorn at that, I wouldn't consider her a good candidate to describing the rest of the race's mental aging.

Long ago, back when life expectancy was shorter and the need for man-power was greater, and we had no luxuries (like sitting on our butts all day reading the internet), people were adults when they were much younger than now.

Humans went from considering the age of 12 being old enough to work hard labour and kill a man, not to mention sex and marriage, to what we have now with our sheltered lives, and not letting a person decide whether they can be under the influence of legal drugs (alcohol) until you are 21 in some places.

D&D has always lumped racial culture and racial physiology in one set of stats for a race. Elves, having an advanced "society" and sheltered lives, coupled with longevity, could easily explain 110 year adulthood when they are actually physically ready at a much younger age.

Mentally deficient rogues notwithstanding.

.
Tying this into the side topic of problematic races, I'd love to see future editions of D&D properly separate the cultural stuff from the race choice, and instead make that it's own thing to choose at character creation.

So when you picked your race, you'd get what every member of that race gets due to physiology.
Then you pick your cultural background. Maybe you were a dwarf raised by dwarves, in dwarftown. Or maybe you were a dwarf raised in the dwarven community of Varisia. Or maybe you were that odd-ball situation where you were a dwarf raised in an elven community.

This would open up cultural backgrounds to all races, instead of only Humans being allowed this cultural variety.


I have no problem with the Elves have a shelter lives,... if it were true.

But to do that you need a Nation of Elves that is cut off from invaders & other races.
You also need a Teck or Magic society that is Very Advanced, and still remains so today. So that the commoners get advanced medical care/health, housing/shelter, food/nutrition, clothing/Fashion, Sanitation/Fresh water, etc etc etc..

I never seen any of these being the case in D&D games. So i do not see society playing as big a role in elves, inability to learn at a young age.

At best it is for game balance rules, only.

........................

And i still like my idea of
Elf = Grow same as humans.
Elf = Max age is 250 years

Elf = Most settings = 250 year max works.

Elf = Fantasy setting = Tree bond, were they age 1 year out of ever 10 when bonded to a tree. If tree dies, they rapid age to there true age, and maybe die if over max age. If elf dies, then reincarnated as Treant (male) or Dryad (female). You can even do this selectively were Elf Nobles, Lords, Ladie might get it but not the commoners... Rich people alway get the best care ;p


vuron wrote:

I've been playing since the early 80s and I can't remember a single instance of a female dwarf with a beard depicted in any TSR or WotC product.

Forgotten Realms setting: Brunor Battlehammer in R.A. Salvatore's Dark Elf books mentions the wonderful beards of Dwarven women all the time. Dwarves often mention how Cattie-Brie would be a catch if she could grow a decent beard.


Oh, right. Warriors and Priests of the Realms has a nice image of a bearded female dwarf too. Accidentally, she is wearing a tight chain mail that makes it very clear that identifying a dwarf as a female would not be a difficult thing to do.


Ashiel wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
110 years starting age. What do they spend a century on before reaching the competence of a human teen? Are elves functionally disabled? Do they spend all that time practising aloof expressions in the mirror and brushing their hair? :P

I'd say yes. Elves just don't learn in quite the same way that humans do it would seem. A human matches the average elf in skills, point for point, and actually exceed elves in those skills if humans have their +2 in Intelligence. Elves (and likely other races) simply do learn at a slower pace than humans.

To give some cannon backup to this, I quote the summary of the Pathfinder Iconic Rogue, Merisiel.

Meet the Iconics: Merisiel, Monday, July 23, 2007 wrote:


The elves have a name for elven children unfortunate enough to be born and raised in human society—the Forlorn. In a few rare cases, these foundlings or orphaned elves find loving homes with humans, although the fact that, over the course of their childhood, one-time playmates become their effective guardians and foster parents results in a strangely skewed sense of the self. Most Forlorn aren't as fortunate—they live on the streets as almost eternal urchins, watching alone as their companions age and move on to greater things.

We can see from this that not only due elves mature physically slower, but apparently they are left behind in mental endeavors as well. Otherwise elven children in human societies could easily progress to greater things based on their experience and accumulated knowledge.

Continuing on...

Quote:
Merisiel is one of the Forlorn, only now emerging from decades spent as a child of the streets into a young adult ready to make her own way in life. A master at stowing away on ships, she's called dozens of cities home, leaving one for another when her companions outgrew her or she outlived them. Life has been hard for Merisiel, made more so by the fact that she's always found it difficult to master skills that come easily to her companions.[/b] Never
...

the uneducated street rat that she is, is not a good example for any argument


In the Forgotten Realms suppliment I believe one of the last ones, something like players guide to the realms there is a pic of a female Dwarf without a bierd :) She is a wizard with long braided black hair.


Ok, I have to admit I first had trouble with the whole age thing as well.

But firstly let's just say that elves do not physically mature slowly.

They simply do not develop an urge to leave home, adventure or develop past base skills until that age.

109 year old elves are essentially that 24 year old guy who still lives at home with his mom.

put it in human terms.

Some kids start developing life skills at 12-14 years of age. Forced to get a job to help the family survive, more aggressive/curious about learning life skills than kids their own age, lost a parent or both etc.

Compare that 14 year old to the 28 year old ( I know one) who still hasnt finished college, still lives at home.

Does the 28 year old really have much more life skills/maturity than the 14 year old? (apparently not in the case of person I know)

More skills points/level/power represents in game mechanics the ability to handle a situation.

elves are just 40 year old virgins.

Mentally/emotionally they stay 'adolescent' much longer than other races.

you know adolescence that time period in a persons life when they waste time, learn nothing, think they know everything, and do nothing to correct the situation, but constantly claim they are 'busy' and 'tired'.....elves are just in puberty for 85 years.

they DO NOT physically age at the same rate humans do.
thats why they live so long.
but they dont take 110 years to get to physcial maturity either.


Remember you are a 60 year lifespan thing looking at a potentially imortal lifespan thing... or at least a thing that lives for quite a few hundreds of years... they are different in the way they mature, behave, react, grow, learn, think...


Oliver McShade wrote:


But to do that you need a Nation of Elves that is cut off from invaders & other races.
You also need a Teck or Magic society that is Very Advanced, and still remains so today. So that the commoners get advanced medical care/health, housing/shelter, food/nutrition, clothing/Fashion, Sanitation/Fresh water, etc etc etc..

I never seen any of these being the case in D&D games.

Pathfinder Chronicles have Kyonin and the fabled secret elven homeworld. Forgotten Realms have Evermeet and Evereska. I don't know that much about other settings to talk about them.

We know basically nothing about the elven homeworld for Golarion's elves, but Kyonin is pretty isolated. It is also described as high culture and featuring some nice magical stuff.

And Forgotten Realms elves have mythals, some sort of super-magical biodome that is extremely powerful and allows everyone inside to use some (often quite powerful) magical stuff.

I'd say that pretty much qualifies as the right environment to allow youngsters a sheltered life.

Of course, that's all beside the point that it's ultimately futile to try to explain things in a fantasy setting using real-world logic and observations.

It just doesn't work. There are so many things that make no sense if you look at them too closely, this is just one of them. Others are "Why doesn't the economy collapse under the strains adventurers and their loot put it through?", "How comes you need years and years to learn enough to be a 1st-level anything, but then can advance to level 20 in half a year (or faster)?" or "How does this magic thing work, really? There is so much that is complete nonsense about it, spell effects that should lead to disaster in very short order!"


Pendagast wrote:


elves are just 40 year old virgins.

Actually, I don't think so. They might be 40 year old "kids", but I don't think they wait very long before having fun. Their culture doesn't view sex as something important and solemn you need to be very mature to do and need to do with your true love only and so on.

Calistria isn't their patron goddess for nothing, after all....

Even humans in our world often start to get sexually active long before they are considered adults. The age of consent is 14 in a lot of nations, and in many of these nations you need to be an adult, which you become with 18 years of age, to do things like drive cars, vote, or own weapons. So even in our world, there are many cultures that don't think sex is an adult only thing.

And elves aren't even humans. I think with their usual attitude towards sex they won't bat an eye about elven "kids" of 30 or even younger to sneak off to have a little fun.


KaeYoss wrote:
Pendagast wrote:


elves are just 40 year old virgins.

Actually, I don't think so. They might be 40 year old "kids", but I don't think they wait very long before having fun. Their culture doesn't view sex as something important and solemn you need to be very mature to do and need to do with your true love only and so on.

Calistria isn't their patron goddess for nothing, after all....

Even humans in our world often start to get sexually active long before they are considered adults. The age of consent is 14 in a lot of nations, and in many of these nations you need to be an adult, which you become with 18 years of age, to do things like drive cars, vote, or own weapons. So even in our world, there are many cultures that don't think sex is an adult only thing.

And elves aren't even humans. I think with their usual attitude towards sex they won't bat an eye about elven "kids" of 30 or even younger to sneak off to have a little fun.

I didint mean it as far as sex, specifically so much as lack of "out int he world" expereince...ie the movie "40 year old virgin"


Pendagast wrote:


I didint mean it as far as sex, specifically so much as lack of "out int he world" expereince...ie the movie "40 year old virgin"

Haven't seen that one.

Anyway, you're probably right. They mature in, say 20 years or so, and probably have the mental prowess of a 100-year-old adult (minus all the experiences someone 80 years older will have, though of course they're not too useful, being childhood experiences), but they will continue to live sheltered, carefree lifes until the they turn 100 or so.

There might not be that much development going on in that time (as they don't gather "real world experiences", away from their shelter in their home or community), which explains why these 100-year-olds aren't better at everything than adult (or even venerable) humans that are actually younger then the elves.

They just don't go through all the stuff that, in game terms, will give you XP and let you advance in levels. That starts when they're considered adults and expected to do an adult's work now.


KaeYoss wrote:
"Why doesn't the economy collapse under the strains adventurers and their loot put it through?"

I can't answer the other questions for you, but as for this one...the idea that even the simplest of economic systems is so fragile as to collapse into chaos just because a rich person passes through town has always been completely nonsensical.

It is not the wealth of the visitors that matters, or even the wealth of the visitors compared to the wealth in the economic system. It is the amount of consumption that matters. Unless an adventuring party is using its wealth to try and purchase the vast majority of goods and services available, then the effect of adventurers arriving in town with piles of gold is going to be barely noticeable, no matter how small the economic system.

And Dwarven women don't have beards. Not unless they are also Southern Italian Dwarven women.

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