Do elves have learning disabilities?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Always looked at elf age slightly differently.

Why elves are so attached to those forest and trees, is a matter of life.

Average elf age lives to 250 years. Normal

Binds with elf magic to tree near adulthood. Elf only ages 1 year out of every 10 years while bound to tree. If tree dies, elf advances to normal age, and might die if this is over there max age. If elf dies, then elf is reincarnated as (Male = Trent) or (Female = Dryad).


Oliver McShade wrote:

Always looked at elf age slightly differently.

Why elves are so attached to those forest and trees, is a matter of life.

Average elf age lives to 250 years. Normal

Binds with elf magic to tree near adulthood. Elf only ages 1 year out of every 10 years while bound to tree. If tree dies, elf advances to normal age, and might die if this is over there max age. If elf dies, then elf is reincarnated as (Male = Trent) or (Female = Dryad).

This reminds me of something:

Oglaf: Stamen (NSFW for most work places, and not suitable for small children.)


KaeYoss wrote:

This reminds me of something:

Oglaf: Stamen (NSFW for most work places, and not suitable for small children.)

Wow...

Anyway... I think that the general consensus about elves being flighty is pretty spot on. But I still don't get it about the dwarves. And the dwarf hate? For real? Punt gnomes or go home.


Foghammer wrote:


And the dwarf hate? For real?

Of course*

Spoiler:
Well, yes and no:

The big problem with the D&D/PF dwarf is that it's way too stereotypical, and nobody, at least nobody in charge of RPG settings, seems able to really do something new with them. Even the Pathfinder dwarves, which I hoped would get some fresh ideas, just like elves and gnomes and lots and lots of "monster" races, are just the same as always.

Terry Pratchett seems to be the only one around to be able to do anything with them. Pratchett dwarves are great. Well, not great. They're still short. And in many ways the same old - but he manages to give a good explanation for why they are how they are, and infuses the whole thing with a number of fresh ideas.

Anyway, my big problem with dwarves is actually the same as my problem with elves or paladins: It's idiot players. Players who use certain stuff as an excuse to be jerks and annoy people. They take the worst of the stereotypes while ignoring the good stuff.

The typical dwarf as played by one of those idiots is a racist, alcoholic sociopath, hating elves especially but every other race to some extent, gets drunk regularly, and displays the social grace of an annoying fly covered in excrement.

Of course the typical bad elf has this "I'm so much better than thou" attitude, is arrogant² and treats other races as worth less than animals, and the typical bad paladin gets in the way of the party by being Lawful Stupid and exaggerating their codex to a point where the players need bodyguards to get home safely.

But it all boils down to this: Some people are just idiots. Sadly, they have something like a Reverse Midas Touch - everything they touch turns to crap. People will see a dwarf, elf, paladin, whatever played badly by these people, and often won't remember or realise that these people are unable to play any decent RPG character - they'll just remember how that dwarf or paladin, or whathaveyou was really annoying.

A properly played elf or paladin can be great. Even a properly played dwarf can be a great experience, especially if you take a lesson in "Discworldism"

Foghammer wrote:


Punt gnomes or go home.

First: I am already home.

Second: Gnome rocks. Especially Pathfinder gnomes! Not that the old gnomes were that bad...

(I guess I forgot typical bad gnomes in my explanation above. And, of course typical bad halflings/kenders, and many other things. It still boils down to "some people are idiots")


By the book, a kender that doesn't make the party want to string them up and gut them is being played wrong. They deserve all the hate they get for being an abysmally written race.

Spellscales come in a close second.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
110 years starting age. What do they spend a century on before reaching the competence of a human teen? Are elves functionally disabled? Do they spend all that time practising aloof expressions in the mirror and brushing their hair? :P

I'd say yes. Elves just don't learn in quite the same way that humans do it would seem. A human matches the average elf in skills, point for point, and actually exceed elves in those skills if humans have their +2 in Intelligence. Elves (and likely other races) simply do learn at a slower pace than humans.

To give some cannon backup to this, I quote the summary of the Pathfinder Iconic Rogue, Merisiel.

Meet the Iconics: Merisiel, Monday, July 23, 2007 wrote:


The elves have a name for elven children unfortunate enough to be born and raised in human society—the Forlorn. In a few rare cases, these foundlings or orphaned elves find loving homes with humans, although the fact that, over the course of their childhood, one-time playmates become their effective guardians and foster parents results in a strangely skewed sense of the self. Most Forlorn aren't as fortunate—they live on the streets as almost eternal urchins, watching alone as their companions age and move on to greater things.

We can see from this that not only due elves mature physically slower, but apparently they are left behind in mental endeavors as well. Otherwise elven children in human societies could easily progress to greater things based on their experience and accumulated knowledge.

Continuing on...

Quote:
Merisiel is one of the Forlorn, only now emerging from decades spent as a child of the streets into a young adult ready to make her own way in life. A master at stowing away on ships, she's called dozens of cities home, leaving one for another when her companions outgrew her or she outlived them. Life has been hard for Merisiel, made more so by the fact that she's always found it difficult to master skills that come easily to her companions.[/b] Never the sharpest knife in the drawer, as the saying goes, Merisiel has learned to make up for this by carrying at least a dozen of them on her person. When things go wrong with her carefully laid plans (as they almost always seem to do), the knives come out and what needs to be done gets done. To date, Merisiel hasn't met a problem that can't, in one way or another, be solved with daggers.

Emphasis mine.

Once again, we can see that she has problems learning. Even though she has actually outlived several of her human friends, she still has trouble as her human friends literally outgrow her. It'd be kind of like being stuck in childhood for a long time, never getting the mature punchlines, or learning to read between the lines, etc.

Furthermore, we can see from her statistics (Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10) that she's of average intelligence, so this learning disability isn't due to stupidity or lack of ability to process information, but apparently an inborn weakness of elves. Mind you, she's a bit less learned than most elves by elven standards (10 Int vs 12), but by human standards she's average. What can you expect, growing up among humans as a street orphan? (Not the most educated, right?)

Quote:

Merisiel's life experiences have taught her to enjoy things to their fullest as they occur—it's impossible to tell when the good times might end. She's open and expressive with her thoughts and emotions, and while she's always on the move and working on her latest batch of plots for easy money, in the end it comes down to being faster than everyone else—either on her feet, or with her beloved blades.

She wouldn't have it any other way.

And we can see here, finally, that it's not for a lack of laziness. She's actually pretty good at staying busy, and apparently very little time loafing around as it were.

Note: It would be fair to say that all the races seem to have this same sort of learning disability compared to humans, however, it would appear it is not a disability in your traditional RPG, so much as the norm. Dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and so forth all live much longer than humans, while orcs and half-orcs (who have shorter lives than humans on average) may not be as dumb as people think.

Instead, it would appear that humans are - as described - actually very gifted at learning. It's not that the elves, dwarves, or other races have learning disabilities - it's we humans have a learning advantage. We learn and process new information quickly and grasp a working knowledge of things more readily than any other race. Therefor, in D&D, the other races set the average so they don't have a disability - it's just super-fast learners.

Does that about cover it?


Ashiel wrote:
humans just have an improved ability to learn

Works for me.

The Exchange

They're growing. It takes a long time to reach 12,000 feet tall. Disabilities? They're horrible at free throws. Hack-an-elf all day long.


Learning advantage..

If this book was written by Elves, for an Elven RPG group.... then Elves would have that "Learning Advantage"

IF this book was written by Dwarfs, for an Dwarven RPG group.... then Dwarf would have that "Learning Advantage"

.... It is just game balance, to give Humans a reason to play Humans, since the world is run by humans, and humans are the dominate race in 90% of books....which are written by humans.


Or hey... just say they take a long time to physically / mentally mature. It's easier than all the other explanations on why they take so long to start out and then go up at the same rate as everyone else once they are ready. Let's see... 10 year long pregnancies (that would certainly account for a low birth rate)... infancy for a decade... toddlerhood for about 2 decades... childhood for another 5 decades or so... followed by about 3 decades of adolescence. At the end of which their parents kick them out :D

The human brain doesn't finish maturing / growing until about 20. Memories get jerked around and a lot is forgotten / unlearned throughout this period (especially in the early phases with large amounts of growth). 110 might just be the physical equivalent of 21 for Elves. Maybe they just don't let them out in the world until they're ready. If you have a low birth rate it makes sense. You can't afford to let them go out, experiment and get killed. Human can afford that -- racially. Elves could not.

Personally it gives a sense of... difference to think of a race slowly maturing like that. Half Elves might be considered "premature births" (by Elven standards) and mature alarmingly fast. And humans... premature aging disease by Elvish standards. Which accounts for why Elves opt out of contact with outsiders relatively young -- burned out by watching too many friends die "young" (at 80 or so...).

As for a lot to learn, I'd say that's true. Elvish culture would be more complex and it would require longer to acquire the "basics" of it.

Anyway, that's how it is in my game...


I've run a campaign before in which we gave all Dwarves mastery of a few crafts and professions (usually mining, stonework, gem craft, metal working, etc.) and gave all elves mastery of multiple art forms (usually singing, musical instruments, dance, and one or two crafts).

The idea was, long-lived races have long adolescence, and conservative ideas about the appropriate endeavors for "teenagers". Just like in modern society, you have to learn reading, writing, and arithmetic before you're allowed to take up a profession of choice. You can't even join most country's military unless you have a high school diploma.


james jackson aka JJ wrote:

Three words: Too many mushrooms.

"Wow, have you ever looked at your hand?? And Whoh!!! That's a cool tree!! I think I'll watch it for awhile!!!"

"They call them fingers, but I've never seen them fing."

-- Zongo Treeleaves on the mysteries of life


Ashiel wrote:
Once again, we can see that she has problems learning.

That's more because she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. She probably hit her pretty little head a couple of times too often.

Merisiel is just one elf among thousands, so you can't generalise from her background.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
KaeYoss wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Once again, we can see that she has problems learning.

That's more because she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. She probably hit her pretty little head a couple of times too often.

Merisiel is just one elf among thousands, so you can't generalise from her background.

For a better look at elves in this setting two good references would be the Elves of Golarion sourcebook and the 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves.

Elves have such long lifespans that it is difficult for us, as humans to even comprehend such a thing. I believe the longest living human on record lived to about 122 years of age, which is barely into adulthood for most elves.

In Golarion the main elven kingdom of Kyonin is primarily run by elves that are isolationists. If they keep their society locked off from others just imagine how their children are. Most elven children would never have contact with other species not wanting them to develop ties to someone who won't live nearly as long.

Then you have characters like Merisiel, who is a Forlorn which throws a big monkey wrench in the whole process. It's a wonder that most Forlorn aren't insane from being raised around shorter lived races. The best way that I could describe it would be as an "endless childhood" which fits the elven sense of wonder perfectly. But outside of elven influences that eternal childhood can become a prison.

One of my current Kingmaker characters is a Forlorn. In short he is described as a refugee from an extinct clan who was adopted by humans. Initially, his foster family thought nothing of his race. They even had children already that appeared to be his age.

Imagine you have two children. One is a 12 year old human boy, the other is an elven boy around 60 years which looks 12 by all appearances. At first they might get along fine but then lest let 2 years go by. The human is 14 and the elf is 62, the human is a little taller, the elf is the same. Let a couple more years go by and the human is 16, much taller and stronger, almost a grown man, the elf is the same. Then a couple more years pass, the human is now an 18 year old man, the elf still looks like a 12 year old boy at 66. Then lets really fast forward 30 years. The human is now 48 years old on the back side of middle age, the elf is 96 which at this point might as well be a teenager, almost grown but not quite there. When the elf reaches 120 years and is considered an adult the human will be 72 years old in the sunset of his life while the elf has centuries in front of him.

It is the passage of time that defines elves more than any other race. In Kyonin many consider Forlorn not to be elves at all. They are treated like an outsider race, only pitied for what they have "lost".


So in other words they have a learning disability.

Because in the 60 years that it took the elf to grow up.... he did not learn anything. And only once you start taking a character class... does any race learn anything.

Even the human boy of 18 ... by D&D stardards... is Dumb as a Door Nail... until he takes a Character Class.


KaeYoss wrote:

The big problem with the D&D/PF dwarf is that it's way too stereotypical, and nobody, at least nobody in charge of RPG settings, seems able to really do something new with them. Even the Pathfinder dwarves, which I hoped would get some fresh ideas, just like elves and gnomes and lots and lots of "monster" races, are just the same as always.

Spoiler:
Elves are still looked at the same way as dwarves in every other setting as well, but because they're described as 'naturally pretty' and prissy (in general). They get fancy new write ups though that mostly amount to location changes and some tweaks in culture to reflect that. The dwarves could get the same treatment. They don't, but they could.

Apparently, you have played with some real tools. When people in my groups have played dwarves, they have been mostly good-natured, but stereotypically quick to find a fight. And it makes sense for dwarves to drink the way they do. Their physiology makes up for it, reflected in the racial trait "Hardy." Alcohol is toxic to most organisms, and dwarves can drink more without getting intoxicated. I'm no expert, but I would think this leads to longer nights at the bar and fewer hangovers.

Racial traits really define a race's write-up. Elves are really generic. Dwarves have stuff like "Stonecunning" and "Hatred" and "Defensive Training" that really narrow down where you can stick them to keep all of their racial traits relevant. Personally, I would welcome some changes to that list, though the APG alternate traits alleviate some of those stereotypes.

Hope your experiences with dwarves get better. Paladins... well, that's not likely to happen.


Humans learn best in academia when placed in close proximity to both peers and authoritative people on a given subject. We have an absolutely amazing ability to bridge hypothetical gaps in learning simply by having someone say "2+2=4" you then spring board up and out and cram your head full of nonsense, sense and a lot of other goodies, badies, star wars quotes and general rubbish whilst damaging your brain with substances, football injuries and getting whacked on the head by other humans that have an intersecting life trajectory to yours. Keep in mind that all this has to take place in and around a very timultuous and largely smelly biological life that is tragicly short when measured against an age, epoch, millenia or even the existence of the Rolling Stones.

Elves are the paragonal example of learning through doing, and life experience. No wizened elven sage would give one jot about the philosophical blatherings of some upstart young elf that read a book and decided something was a fact. If you want to solve a mathematical equation in an elven societal construct you had best start out each thought from the VERY beginning and work your way out. Sure a human teenager's math homework would take the better part of a year to do instead of an evening spent reverse engineering the answers to odd numbered problems in the back of the text book. But hey...you've actually got the time so why rush it? However, math and the hard sciences are so repetitively involved that very few elves delve down this path. They would much rather figure things out through relative analogy and empirical observation. Their architecture models nature because you can SEE a tree and how it grows much easier than determining moments of inertia in a great stone door (dwarfness).

SO...an elven youth that is physically mature at 20-25 will spend the remainder of the next century building their personal knowledge of the world and their place in it. At 110 they could tell you from simple smells, sights, sounds, etc many things that have no real "use" in a game mechanics environment. Knowing the time it takes for a sycamore leaf to fall from the highest branch to the forest floor probably takes a good 5 years of studying a sycamore to figure out in your head. Does that help you kill an orc? No...but it helps build your mental construct of timing (once you gain a class and begin advancing in the game).

Additionally, just because you lived to 978 years and haven't ever slain anything larger than a rabbit, or sunk a city beneath an ocean with your mind doesn't mean that your life is wasted or that you are a worthless bit of tripe on the face of a planet crawling with fire tossing characters with god complexes. It just means you've advanced yourself between and outside the lines that define a game world run by small marble bags filled with sets of 10 dice.

In summary...no...elves don't have a learning disability. By 110 they are full of life, love and a thirst for adventure that they've been cultivating for the better part of a century.


In D&D, everyone has a learning disability. Not a single race learns anything prior to 1st level. That means that if you don't get your first level until you hit adulthood, then orcs lose their disability at 16, humans lose it at 18, and on up to Elves at 120.

The issue isn't that elves are dumb, it's that because of their naturally long lifespans, they don't overcome their disability for a century.

In addition to the 'wunderlust' above, I've also ran games where I just tossed out the adult-hood age for elves and dwarves. They all hit adulthood before 30, they just live a really long time once they become an adult.


Coming in just a teensy bit late here but I thought I'd take a stab at the original question.

I always thought elves spent 90 or so years backpacking around Avistan and blowing through their college fund in order to 'find themselves'. :P


Oliver McShade wrote:
So in other words they have a learning disability.

Yeah. And half-elves, too. And dwarves. And gnomes. And humans.

All a bunch of idiots.

All hail the genius mayfly!


Foghammer wrote:
Elves are still looked at the same way as dwarves in every other setting as well, but because they're described as 'naturally pretty' and prissy (in general). They get fancy new write ups though that mostly amount to location changes and some tweaks in culture to reflect that.

Actually, the elves get a real tune-up in Elves of Golarion. Sure, things like "They may seem flighty and whimsical, but that's because they have decades or even centuries of experience, so they know the right way to resolve nearly every situation." might not sound like the pinnacle of invention, but it is a neat explanation, nevertheless.

The same goes for their aloofness, which is actually the elven way of not forcing their opinion upon others. They respect people too much to meddle in their affairs. The most you get out of an elf is an "Well, in your place, I would do this and that, but I'm not you, and so this is probably not too helpful for you". Other races don't understand this (which makes sense, they all think of other races as "humans/gnomes/halflings/etc with weird features, and always have problems understanding that their mindset is different) and often confuse it as aloofness.

The part about elves valuing friendship above everything else (even family or their country) and defining honour as never betraying a friend is brand new, though.

Foghammer wrote:


The dwarves could get the same treatment. They don't, but they could.

"Could" doesn't matter, because they didn't. Dwarves of Golarion is nothing new under the sun (or rather under the mountain), and It's doubtful that they'll do that book again any time soon.

All those alternate universes the scientists keep going on about, where everything that didn't happen here does happen, are none of our concern.

Foghammer wrote:


Apparently, you have played with some real tools. When people in my groups have played dwarves, they have been mostly good-natured, but stereotypically quick to find a fight. And it makes sense for dwarves to drink the way they do. Their physiology makes up for it, reflected in the racial trait "Hardy." Alcohol is toxic to most organisms, and dwarves can drink more without getting intoxicated. I'm no expert, but I would think this leads to longer nights at the bar and fewer hangovers.

Sure. The problem is, they still drink to get hammered. Not "drink as much as a human would have to drink to get hammered". They drink until they're drunk. Doesn't matter if that takes more alc than for a human.

Foghammer wrote:


Racial traits really define a race's write-up. Elves are really generic. Dwarves have stuff like "Stonecunning" and "Hatred" and "Defensive Training" that really narrow down where you can stick them to keep all of their racial traits relevant.

Elves get elven magic and weapon familiarity, which isn't really any more generic than the dwarven stuff.

Foghammer wrote:


Hope your experiences with dwarves get better. Paladins... well, that's not likely to happen.

I've seen a few paladins that were alright, and several that were decent to awesome.

Sure, I played one of these paladins myself, but it does happen.

And I had positive dwarves, too (again, some of them were my own characters).


Actually, no, they don't have a learning disability.

They have a learning disinclination.

They refuse to rush growing up. The serious part of life will be long enough, no need to get there sooner than you have to.

They can afford it.

I mean our current (real-world) ages where we are considered to be an adult (usually 18 or 21 years of age) weren't always the same. In the not too distant past, there were adults of 12 years.

Interestingly, there was sometimes different ages for peasants and nobles: While peasants could be considered an adult as with as early as 12, nobles in the same area, at the same time, were sometimes declared adult when they were 24.

Nobody will argue that your average human is smarter now then he was then (even though it takes longer for him to officially become an adult), or that those peasants were smarter and more educated than the nobles.

This long childhood is not a disability, it's a privilege. Longer lifespans, better living conditions, and a less difficult life allow us today to stay children (or, at least to live the relatively carefree life of children) for a longer time than those poor peasants.

I guess it's a lot like that for elves, too. They have centuries to be an adult in and can well afford to let their progeny stay kids for a hundred years.


The starting age issue is definitely one that I think 4e had the right idea (and it's one that I've used in homebrews for ages).

4e Elves reach maturity at roughly the same age as humans and then they go into stasis until they become ancient (which is much sooner that pre-4e elves).

This allows for elven player characters without generating the LotR problem. You can have young elves that like to play around with humans and you don't have the problem of elven medieval stasis which has plagued fantasy campaigns since the beginning.

The only possible area of abuse would be the mental stat bonuses and physical penalties. Personally I don't use the mental stat bonuses and only use the physical penalties.


KaeYoss wrote:

Actually, no, they don't have a learning disability.

They have a learning disinclination.

They refuse to rush growing up. The serious part of life will be long enough, no need to get there sooner than you have to.

They can afford it.

I mean our current (real-world) ages where we are considered to be an adult (usually 18 or 21 years of age) weren't always the same. In the not too distant past, there were adults of 12 years.

Interestingly, there was sometimes different ages for peasants and nobles: While peasants could be considered an adult as with as early as 12, nobles in the same area, at the same time, were sometimes declared adult when they were 24.

Nobody will argue that your average human is smarter now then he was then (even though it takes longer for him to officially become an adult), or that those peasants were smarter and more educated than the nobles.

This long childhood is not a disability, it's a privilege. Longer lifespans, better living conditions, and a less difficult life allow us today to stay children (or, at least to live the relatively carefree life of children) for a longer time than those poor peasants.

I guess it's a lot like that for elves, too. They have centuries to be an adult in and can well afford to let their progeny stay kids for a hundred years.

+1

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Umbral Reaver wrote:
110 years starting age. What do they spend a century on before reaching the competence of a human teen? Are elves functionally disabled? Do they spend all that time practising aloof expressions in the mirror and brushing their hair? :P

Elves spend most of that time as pixies. After about a century of frolicking around and doing pixie-ish things, one autumn, the pixie will form a cocoon. They will sleep for the winter and emerge in the spring as a full fledged elf.


vuron wrote:

The starting age issue is definitely one that I think 4e had the right idea (and it's one that I've used in homebrews for ages).

4e Elves reach maturity at roughly the same age as humans and then they go into stasis until they become ancient (which is much sooner that pre-4e elves).

This allows for elven player characters without generating the LotR problem. You can have young elves that like to play around with humans and you don't have the problem of elven medieval stasis which has plagued fantasy campaigns since the beginning.

The only possible area of abuse would be the mental stat bonuses and physical penalties. Personally I don't use the mental stat bonuses and only use the physical penalties.

It's also important to note that 4e elven lifespans are, as I recall, only about twice that of humans, so you don't have cases where you want to make a plot about some ancient evil that's way mysterious and the elf wizard goes "AND I WAS TOTALLY THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED!"


Elves are exceptionally well educated. Every single Elf belongs to PC class. Most humans only have NPC class levels. This simply does not show up in adventuring parties as th human PCs have been through an intensive, multi year, training hell that leaves then equal to the adverage young elf. After about five level they'll pull even with an elf that has had the same kind of intensive training that they have. After years of surviving being mortally wounded and healed by magic a human PC, might, have learned enough to equal an elvn elder. Not many people in the world train by facing intense danger and being magically healed after mistakes . . .


Umbral Reaver wrote:
110 years starting age. What do they spend a century on before reaching the competence of a human teen? Are elves functionally disabled? Do they spend all that time practising aloof expressions in the mirror and brushing their hair? :P

It's the chocolate.

Y'see, all elves are chocoholics. Can't stay away from the stuff. And y'know what chocolate does to dogs? It does something similar to elves, only it does it to their memories.

And with gnomes it's vanilla. Dwarves just keep banging their heads on their ceilings.


KaeYoss wrote:

That's more because she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer. She probably hit her pretty little head a couple of times too often.

Merisiel is just one elf among thousands, so you can't generalize from her background.

Merisiel's intelligence is 10, the human average. She's not the sharpest tool in the shed in elven terms, but the description of the forlorn is pretty clear. They're stuck. If their minds advanced at the same pace as humans, then while their bodies were still young they would be sporting adult level intelligence. A forlorn street child would possess the skills and mental capabilities of an adult, allowing them to function as advisers, or even criminal masterminds.

But humans outgrow them. Quickly. It doesn't make any sense otherwise, really. The least number of logical problems comes from this interpretation, whereas every other interpretation either seems weird 'cause elves are too lazy to function, or you wonder why every elf in the world isn't a 20th level superhuman, since they've had more than a lifetime to master stuff at human-level cognitive learning.


What, you mean the Elves Elders are not 40th level character, with 15 cleric/15 wizard/10 Mystic Theurge.

Dark Archive

Soluzar wrote:

For a better look at elves in this setting two good references would be the Elves of Golarion sourcebook and the 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves.

The complete book of elves actually recommended giving elven characters extra non-weapon proficiencies, but stressed that elves will focus on artistic and/or domestic skills. I've considered awarding elves in my PF games extra skill ranks (4 or 5) to spend on Craft, Perform, Profession, and possibly Knowledge and Linguistics.

Silver Crusade

Soluzar wrote:

For a better look at elves in this setting two good references would be the Elves of Golarion sourcebook and the 2nd edition Complete Book of Elves.

Different strokes for different folks and all, but I strongly recommend not cleaving close to the 2E Complete Book of Elves if you don't want the other players to hate your elven PC.

I still believe that book did more to paint elves with a "Better Than You" brush than any other D&D supplement ever.

That's another thing I like about the Golarion setting: The elves aren't a "superior in every way" race. They've got their own baggage and don't have moral superiority over everyone in all things. (and honestly, I'd probably still rather hang out with a Forlorn)

Findelaldlarra is still a rage magnet though. People give Erastil a hard time over being behind the times, but she's by far worse. Ethnocentric jerkass.... At least Erastil lives up to the "Good" portion of his alignment.

edit-Findeladlara, whatever. She can't be bothered to answer prayers coming from anyone not of pure superior elven blood, I can't be bothered to learn how to spell her name right.


moon glum wrote:
Umbral Reaver wrote:
110 years starting age. What do they spend a century on before reaching the competence of a human teen? Are elves functionally disabled? Do they spend all that time practising aloof expressions in the mirror and brushing their hair? :P

Elves spend most of that time as pixies. After about a century of frolicking around and doing pixie-ish things, one autumn, the pixie will form a cocoon. They will sleep for the winter and emerge in the spring as a full fledged elf.

This would actually be a really interesting racial mechanic.


Mikaze wrote:

Different strokes for different folks and all, but I strongly recommend not cleaving close to the 2E Complete Book of Elves if you don't want the other players to hate your elven PC.

I still believe that book did more to paint elves with a "Better Than You" brush than any other D&D supplement ever.

"Elves aren't arrogant, they are just misunderstood. They really do feel bad that you aren't as awesome as they are."

;)

Silver Crusade

KnightErrantJR wrote:

"Elves aren't arrogant, they are just misunderstood. They really do feel bad that you aren't as awesome as they are."

;)

Yeah, that.

Makes me want to play an elf with a fetish for orcish and dwarven women just to make them rage.


Mikaze wrote:


Makes me want to play an elf with a fetish for orcish and dwarven women just to make them rage.

Slight side bar here, but I always got the feeling that 2nd edition started distancing itself from the pulp side of D&D's influences, and 1st edition elves, which were part Tolkien/Part Norse Alfar/Part Poul Anderson Fey Creatures/Part Elric influenced race in decline became more and more 100% Tolkien style elves, which meant playing up the the "perfect being" side of things.

Don't get me wrong, I like Tolkien and all, but LOTR elves are horrible PCs.


The "Forlorn" could be compared to the six year old being stolen from their homes and "enlisted" into those militant groups in africa. Mirisiel running around with knives and killing people is to the normal elven population the equivalent of us seeing the child holding an AK-47 almost as tall as him and throwing grenades.

As a father, I personally feel my son should experience as much of the innocence of childhood as he can. The first time he learns about death he will lose a bit of that innocence. Same with sex, hate (of various kinds, racial/religious/sexual/etc), and various other adult themed things.
The thought of a child having to kill another person, having that innocence ripped away, is horrifying.

And this is how the Elves look at the Forlorn.

They could have had decades of innocent life to experience. Of untainted happiness. And it was ripped away from them.

I've met some kids who are very advanced for their age, for one reason or another, and they seem very adult in their speach, themes, and how they look at life.
I imagine that back when life expectency was closer to 40 than what we have now, back then 12 year olds acting in this manner would be typical. Child kings... 10 year old "gangstas"... same difference.

I don't think an elf that had experienced adult life at an early age wouldn't act/think mostly like an adult. But it would be as strange for a normal elf to see that as it is for us seeing that six year old warrior.

Oh, and Mirisiel is borderline deficient compared to her race. She's the equivalent to other elves, as an 8 Int human is to other humans. Humans have bonus skillpoints and other things (and a floating +2 that could be in Int) that catches them up to the average Elf, putting them at a sort of equal footing.
If the average human and average elf are on an equal footing, then Mirisiel with a 10 Int is working with a handicap. She will be a little slow on the uptake compared to both the average Elf and the average Human.


Oh man did someone really bring up the 2e Book of Elven Supremacy?

The only book to my knowledge that caused it's developer to actually apologize for?

Shadow Lodge

A simple Google search will show up various theories on learning stages of children. This has as much to do with the physical structure of the brain at each age as anything.

Pathfinder is a fantasy game so you can have your elves age in any way you want. Each has its real world problem but this doesn't matter in a fantasy setting.

I personally prefer the mature at human speed as it means elves aren't rapidly wiped out in a war etc. Still presents some ecological problems if there are no threats to wipe them out, and the development of the uber powerful elders, but thats an issue for my fantasy game world.

It seems from the description of the Forlorn that elves in Golarion are stuck in the stages of childhood learning for decades, thus preventing play until they reach an adult age. There must be a mechanism in place so that they aren't wiped out by natural disasters or conflict, otherwise they would simply be out competed by other species, but perhaps not in a fantasy game.


KaeYoss wrote:

All dwarves are stereotypical dwarves. They're exactly the same in every setting.

Thank goodness. one thing I can't stand is the tendency of homebrew and third party worlds to change traditional races in some lame attempt to be creative.

"Gee, look, my dwarves raise ostriches and rope cacti on the pampas!"

If you're going to change them that much, make a new race. Changing an old one to something new is retarded.


just had to add this...of course, it's not mine:

Valley Elf,
He's a Valley Elf,
Valley Elf,
He's a Valley Elf...

So cool, so fair,
With chartreuse hair,
So young, secure --

"Fer sure, fer sure,
like, oh, man, I was really down today,
like, sooo down,
I almost flunked archery today,
I was blitzed totally, it was
wrong. Like, I wore my elven cloak
into the dungeon, y'know, and it got all
grody with, wow, like
spider webs and green slime all over it,
like yucko, like
when I saw it when we got out I thought, oh,
gag me with a wand,
it was grody to the max, just psionic, like,
and I had to clean it, oh,
gross me out, man.
Totally awesome. I hate to go in dungeons,
they are so rank, and some of the monsters just like
freak me out, man, like, totally
disgusting, barf city man, it was so gross
that I thought, like, Hey, keep away from me, man!
Like no way I'm gonna ever even use my sword
on you, I just waxed it, y'know, like
gag me with a mace."

Valley Elf,
He's a Valley Elf,
Valley Elf,
He's a Valley Elf...

North of Geoff, South of Ket,
By the River Javan wet,
Living with the stubby gnomes,
The Valley Elves do make their homes.

"Sure, totally, y'know, I had a dog, man,
a cooshee, like he was special,
a Gucci cooshee poochie,
he had designer genes, like, really rare,
he was just awesome, but not too housebroken.
I had to clean up after him, and that was like grody,
just gross to the max, but, wow,
like, no biggie, cuz he was my
dog, y'know, but he's gone now, totally, see,
I met the mage the other day, and, wow, man,
the mage has got like no,
totally no sense of humor. Like, I made a joke,
y'know, I thought it was super,
like, I saw the mage and said like, hey,
we're in the Valley of the Jolly,
like, Ho Ho Ho, Green Valley Mage,
just like the freakin' commercials,
but he just looked at me, like wow,
he must have really been out of it, man,
like he was so out of it he threw
one of those, like, meteor swarms at me, it was just
awesome, I mean it was just, oh wow man, it was
astral, and it missed me and hit my dog,
my designer dog, like,
crispy critter city,
I was really bummed out, really bad like."

Valley Elf,
He's just a Valley Elf,
Valley Elf,
He's just a Valley Elf...

He's a super Valley Elf,
So chaotic, sure of self,
Tall and thin and fair of face,
His brain is lost in outer space.

"Oh, super, like I live in the
good part of the Valley,
y'know, where we're all into, like,
real ethereal things, like
I got a set of designer ring mail
for my birthday, I was totally
freaked out, like, my old set was getting
full of wrinkles and it had
blood on it from where I cut myself
with my short sword, yeah, really, like
agony, man. I was in total agony
for an hour. Really,
but now I'm together, like,
fer sure, no problem.
That was close, man,
like I was so sure I was gonna
pass out fer sure,
I lucked totally.
Good thing."

(Totally written by some gamers
in, like, Kentucky, man,
who don't want their names used.
Fer sure.)


I'm disappointed that people have forgotten the lessons of 2nd edition so quickly.

Then, the question was "How do I build and awesome character" The answer "Be an elf".

Elves were flat out better at everything. The right type of elf (and there were many) was simply BETTER than everything else. And you know, it made everything else much less fun.

IF you want, you can rule that elves are better at LOTS of things that don't have adventuring value. "Ragnar, why are you combing your beard with a shrimp fork?"


ProfessorCirno wrote:

Oh man did someone really bring up the 2e Book of Elven Supremacy?

The only book to my knowledge that caused it's developer to actually apologize for?

I haven't heard this story. Fill me in!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Imagine elves learning at human speed. So a 25-year-old elf is the equal of a 25-year-old human. They go out with a set of boon companions and adventure in the wide world. After a decade, they're both 7th Level characters. After another decade, they're both 12th Level. And, with humans having a 50-year-lifespan, after another decade, the human is old, sickly, and dying. The elf is still in the prime of her life.

When the human dies, the elf goes mad, running in the woods and grieving bitterly. After a time, the elf returns to her people, calm and joyous once again, her memories of her previous cycle all-but-forgotten. She's 1st-Level again, ready to explore the world with a new set of boon companions.

That's the way my friend Ken ran his world. Your 110-year-old elf has already had one or two cycles of adventure, which he remembers only academically.


One idea I played around with for a while was elves having a yearly ceremony of renewal. So every winter they get to decide whether to remember the previous year fully and keep the experience and aging, or to have fade like a dream and the aging be reversed.
So though they could live much longer than humans they could only experience about as much.


juanpsantiagoXIV wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:

All dwarves are stereotypical dwarves. They're exactly the same in every setting.

Thank goodness. one thing I can't stand is the tendency of homebrew and third party worlds to change traditional races in some lame attempt to be creative.

"Gee, look, my dwarves raise ostriches and rope cacti on the pampas!"

If you're going to change them that much, make a new race. Changing an old one to something new is retarded.

So sad. That stagnation. That death of potential. I hope the next Iteration will achieve our goal and do away with this reality, and that it will do so soon. These dwarves are a sign that things are getting really bad.

One of Pathfinder's greatest strengths was the whole Revisited thing: a lot of species were being revised in a way that makes them new and interesting while at the same time staying true to their basic nature.

Paizo has managed to give us goblins, orcs, elves, gnomes, dragons, and so many other things that were at once refreshingly new, but at the same time captured their essence perfectly, so while these goblins etc. are innovative, they were still goblins like we know them from decades of D&D as well as centuries and millennia of human legend.

They didn't make the error of preventing us with the same old, same old critters many of us have grown bored and dissatisfied with, but neither did they make the error of making new creatures and just giving them old names to cash in on brand recognition.

But dwarves are an exception. They were not revisited. Dwarves of Golarion and most other stuff about dwarves in Pathfinder material is crammed full of déjà vus. Only some small details (that they live in their big strongholds in Whatsthename Mountains instead of Mount Somethingorother, and so on.) have changed.

Okay, not completely true, the whole Quest for Sky thing, and the dwarves being responsible for untold misery when they drove the orcs into the benighted overworld and basically unleashed them upon the distracted humans, that's new. But nothing much beyond that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Oliver McShade wrote:

So in other words they have a learning disability.

Because in the 60 years that it took the elf to grow up.... he did not learn anything. And only once you start taking a character class... does any race learn anything.

Even the human boy of 18 ... by D&D stardards... is Dumb as a Door Nail... until he takes a Character Class.

You're getting into the game mechanics vs. storytelling thing again.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

pjackson wrote:

One idea I played around with for a while was elves having a yearly ceremony of renewal. So every winter they get to decide whether to remember the previous year fully and keep the experience and aging, or to have fade like a dream and the aging be reversed.

So though they could live much longer than humans they could only experience about as much.

pjackson, that's a terrific approach. Elves enjoy an almost idylic life, because they only experience the trauma they choose to remember.

It requires a certain faith in oneself. "I was married to a lovely lady named Eileanna, and now she's gone. I can't remember what happened, but I'm sure I'm happier not knowing."


KaeYoss wrote:
One of Pathfinder's greatest strengths was the whole Revisited thing: a lot of species were being revised in a way that makes them new and interesting while at the same time staying true to their basic nature.

If they're staying true to their basic nature, then they haven't really changed. I have the revisited set. I like what it did with the races because most of the changes were small. Dwarves have a certain set of racial features that I think defines them:

Short
Stocky
Live in mountains
Love Ale/Metals/Beards/axes/hammers
Hate goblins/orcs/giants

There was a campaign setting out for a few years called Sovereign Stone that made the dwarves into a desert-dwelling race. That's too big a change for me.


Dire Mongoose wrote:
ProfessorCirno wrote:

Oh man did someone really bring up the 2e Book of Elven Supremacy?

The only book to my knowledge that caused it's developer to actually apologize for?

I haven't heard this story. Fill me in!

http://www.enworld.org/forum/1456335-post18.html

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