I'm asking because I've never really tried making a character like this before.
I'm hoping to make an Inquisitor of Erastil for an upcoming game (he hasn't been accepted yet, but I'm hopeful, and I enjoy character building/planning). Initially, I was thinking about focusing him entirely on ranged combat, but the more I read through the class, the more I feel like I'm limiting myself if I specialize like that in combat.
It seems like between melee weapons, ranged weapons, the judgement ability, and the spells I'll have access to, I should be able to play an effective inquisitor that mixes it up a bit, engaging in melee or ranged combat as necessary, and offering a lot to out-of-combat situations.
So here's what I'm thinking now. He's human, so at 1st level he'd take point blank shot and martial weapon proficiency (probably greataxe - it seems to fit). 3rd level is precise shot, deadly aim at 5th level. I don't want to plan too far beyond there, suffice it to say that's probably it for his ranged attack feats. He might snap up one more feat to aid him in melee (something like power attack or weapon focus), but mostly focus on utility feats or feats that aid him in several situations. Improved Initiative, Alertness, and Dodge are all potentials, and of course make sure to take 1 or 2 spells per spell level that directly contribute to his offensive ability in combat.
So, as the title of the post indicates: would this character be effective? Not necessarily optimized, but effective?
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I have seen these types of characters work sometimes better then so called optimized characters. Having a lot of options can be very helpful in the right games. If you are only a ranged combat monkey, you can easily run into scenarios where you just can't do anything. I have seen wizards designed by some players that are really effective in most situations and totally useless in others.
Alright, thank you. Not that I haven't made generalist characters before, but they're usually bards or spellcasters. This will be my first attempt at turning a genuine combatant to such a purpose.
I confess, I'm mostly picking it up because it seems to suit the character. He's a human (Ulfen) who follows Erastil, and I did a little brushing up on viking weaponry. Seems most of them are multifunctional, so I figure a longbow/greataxe combo would work well with both the character's heritage and the pracical mentality of his god. The longbow is a weapon, but also used to hunt. The greataxe is an instrument of war but also servicable as a woodsman's tool.
Here's how I'm justifying it to myself. Behind the greataxe the spear is my biggest contender, which is like a greataxe but at 1d8 instead of 1d12 (I don't think I've ever had occasion to brace for a charge). I'm spending a feat to get an average damage of +2, which Weapon Specialization seems to legitimize.
Also, just between you and me (but not really, cause it's on this board), the Kingmaker Player's Guide hints that magic axes will be more common than magic bows, and based on the number of rangers applying to the same game, there will likely be some competition for ranged weapons.
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In my experience switch-hitters work very well. The Treantmonk Ranger is still the best one I've seen, but I've also witnessed Fighters, Rogues, and Arcane Duelist Bards work well.
I'd say the Inquisitor could do a decent job of it, but not the best. I have fairly extensive experience with the Inquisitor class and melee is definitely their bigger strength. Also, the Inquisitor will have trouble overcoming the feat-hunger of switch-hitting.
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If the game is using the Traits system, you could save that Martial Weapon feat by taking Heirloom Weapon (Adventurers' Armory).
It fits the background you gave, as a village dedicated to Erastil probably would have a lot of axes around.
Source Adventurer's Armory 30
You carry a weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family. This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.
You'd only be proficient in that one, but it is possible to enhance it later.
If you reeeealy like axes, and are happy to be Andoran, there's also Bellis Axe Master;
Source Andoran: Spirit of Liberty 18
No one knows how to swing an axe better than a Bellisian! You gain a +2 trait bonus on all rolls made to confirm critical hits with axes (battle axe, hand axe, or greataxe).
I'm playing a switch-hitter type Ranger in a Kingmaker campaign and it's working really well. I've been switching between a composite longbow and either a falchion or longspear. However, splitting your focus means more feats and this may prove taxing for an Inquisitor.
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Switch hitters are awsome as long as you dont spread your sels to thin. I also played a ranger that bounced between a longbow and longsword. he could draw and sheath the blade as needed with out ever ditching the bow. I dont know how switching up between ranged, casting, and melee would go but if you use good judgement per situation. You should be good. And the enquisitor is a good class choice for this kind of build.
may i reccomend an inquisitor of Zon-Kuthon? before you guys toss up Gorum as the best fit, here is my explanation
I see Zon-Kuthon as kind of fitting too if you go by the concept of the Grim People of the Dark, Frigid North. it's cold and dark up north. which is Perfectly within the Terroritory of Zon-Kuthon, especially when you factor the suffering such an enviroment brings, the amount of loss to occur, the pain of struggling to survive, the primal fear of death. these are all part of Zon-Kuthon's portfolio. this would also make sense for a "Viking" and would be a different approach from the warmongering raider. the darkness domain could greatly embody the aspects of the Grim nature of the Dark, Frigid North. as light, light, and warmth are connected, so are death, darkness and cold. i see Zon-Kuthon as a better fit for a "viking" than Gorum. the spiked chain part isn't neccessary, the darkness domain is practically a must.
as an inquisitor, you already get proficiency in the longbow. i would also reccomend a dagger if only for the fact it has a lot of utility, life saving incisions, skinning animals, carving wood, carving meat, and a variety of other things.
wood isn't the only way to start a fire, there is also flint
a spear (or longspear) also makes sense, hunting, fishing, combat, probing the enviroment for hazards. my weapon reccomendations would be longbow, dagger, and longspear for fluff. i reccomend a good supply of flint. and don't use your greataxe as a weapon, use it to chop wood, split logs and such only. these functions do not require proficiency. merely survival checks.
There was no single standalone viking culture, it was a word for raider, and the people we associate the term with are a hollywood mutation of a mishmash of traits from multiple cultures that were close in distance to one another. they weren't all raging alcholic berserk raiders, they were a series of grim civilizations in the dark frigid northern wastes who were not so merry. the only reason they raided was to supplement thier own lack of neccessary survival resources such as food, cloth, wood and a variety of things. they were also very conservative with thier stuff. and many of them died every year. mostly due to starvation, disease and other natural causes.
Maybe consider a level of Fighter for the extra feat and weapons capabilities?
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a spear (or longspear) also makes sense, hunting, fishing, combat, probing the enviroment for hazards. my weapon reccomendations would be longbow, dagger, and longspear for fluff. i reccomend a good supply of flint. and don't use your greataxe as a weapon, use it to chop wood, split logs and such only. these functions do not require proficiency. merely survival checks.
A very good point, and one which prompted me to recall the trait below;
Source Adventurer's Armory 31
Your intense familiarity with the tools of your trade allows you to use them in combat as if they were actual weapons and makes them more effective for that purpose than they would normally be. When you use a tool of your trade (requiring at least 1 rank in the appropriate Craft or Profession skill) as a weapon, you do not take the improvised weapon penalty and instead receive a +1 trait bonus on your attack. This trait is commonly used with shovels, picks, blacksmith hammers, and other sturdy tools — lutes and brooms make terribly fragile weapons.
A very good idea, and one which I believe should be applied as a default in the core weapon assumptions. There's a reason militias were equipped with axes, hammers, forks, billhooks and other polearms; regardless of the weapons' effectiveness, it was because the troops were already trained in their use. If you spend all day forking hay, you've already got the technique and the muscle memory. You shouldn't need showing how to use a military fork, just because it has stronger steel tines, and better construction than the one in your barn.
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I just created a switch hitter ranger for Pathfinder Society Play. He worked out pretty well in his first adventure.
A key thing is figuring out how to support different aspects of the character. I generally find that focusing on skills and abilities that get a lot of use works well.
As for equipment, I had the character pick up a masterwork composite bow that he will upgrade and will do the same soon with a greatsword. Play to your strengths, eliminate the weaknesses, and good gaming!
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may i reccomend an inquisitor of Zon-Kuthon? before you guys toss up Gorum as the best fit, here is my explanation
Zon-Kuthon? Really? I see Zon-Kuthon as one of the primary "villian" gods. Sure players can find creative ways to make a character who worships him, but considering his flock is more into things than self mutilation and torture than worshiping darkness I couldn't make this recommendation to an Ulfen character. Besides, his dip into darkness is more from his alien and dark nature than representing the darkness caused by longer seasons.
Great Ulfen gods would be ones like Erastil (probably more lawful than really is needed but important nonetheless because of his dedication to the wild), Gorum (because gods of battle just make sense), and Torag (for his dedication to strategy, steel, and community). In fact, just after writing that I went out and checked and those are the same gods suggested by the Campaign setting.
If you want darkness and really think that it's critical to the background of a viking, you're far, far better off worshiping Groteus. At least he's the god of Ragnarok, a strongly Viking concept.
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Back on topic though.
A friend of mine built a Switch-Hitter for PFS and I'll attest that they're fantastic. He was capable of dishing out significant ranged damage when needed, or dropping down to a battleaxe and shield or greataxe as the situation dictated. His flexibility meant the group could rely on him for what was needed, not what he was optimized to deal with (though with that perception through the roof he was optimized never to be surprised).
There's really no extra detail to be given. Switch hitters are frankly fantastic characters, and Treantmonk's guide is still probably the best out there (though it's now woefully out-of-date with the advent of the APG and the options it provides).
winter (or certain aspects) is perfectly within Zon-Kuthon's territory.
surviving through the winter is a form of torture, is it not?
there is also a lack of survival resources up north and supplies are harder to aqcuire during the winter. death can come from the cold itself, from disease or even from starvation. death is form of loss, one that brings great suffering and suffering is a form of pain, is it not?
I see many creative backdoors within Zon-Kuthon's portfolio. most of which can be discovered with basic assessment. i will concede part way that he is not the best fit, but not without further explaining my reasons for seeing him as a good fit. look a paragraph higher in this post.
Zon-Kuthon is more than just Torture, Self Mutilation and BDSM. there's also envy, pain, darkness and loss. i just happen to have seen these other things with basic contemplation. i see Ulfen respecting him out of fear and a few members of thier villages forced to work as "diplomatic bridges" with him (clerics, inquisitors, oracles, etc) these "Diplomatic Bridges" work (at least initially) not out of thier desire to do so, but because it helps thier people. they beleive that getting on his good side will help thier community survive the winter.
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My two cents:
A character who can do A very well and B pretty well is better than a character who can do A very, very well.
A character who do A adequately and B poorly is worse than a character who can do A pretty well.
Further question to ask yourself; does your GM run combat encounters that encourage this sort of duel-styling?
We havent used "trap" feats and character concepts in a long time.
MOST of our fighter types are switch hitters ALL the time.
Im currently running an elf fighter in serpents skull (after getting my dwarf pally potato mashed) hes got some feats into two weapon fighting and shield stuff, but uses a longbow alot too.
Character has some really great stats tho too, which obviously make this easier.
in contrast, our ranger/barbarian doesnt really do any ranged. largely because his dex is terrible. which essentially is WHY he has levels of ranger (to let him two weapon fight)
the ranger is a really cool character because he has a weakness (low dex) that is over come by his character build, (i keep saying he..its a she)
most of the time you see rangers with high dex and the whole "can two weapon fight with out the prerequisites" is a moot point.
we have an inquisitor too (obviously mainly a ranged character) but shes also an alchemist who wants some master chymist levels.
we all really struggled with the issues that the character only gets simple melee weapons, and that it stole some flavor for the player.
she has a spear and a mace, and a katar and some daggers.
she really does use her repeating crossbow most of the time tho.
the whole "deity" favored weapon thing stinks too...I think all deities should use a favored weapon that is NOT a simple weapon.
some deity choices get cool weapons, others get stuck with something they already get... you shouldnt get penalized on a class feature basically because of the choice of god or alignment.
Our inquisitor considered Zon-kuthon just for the spiked chain! just couldnt see how it fit.
I think Paizo should have thrown us a bone on the favored deity weapons.
In fact, Im thinking of redoing them personally... maybe comming up with an either or column.
Alright, well, I'm pretty sure that this is the character type I'm going to go with. I just got to roll his stats too, and they're phenominal (18,17,17,14,10,10). He's an inquisitor of Erastil, and his 1st feat will be martial weapon proficiency (greataxe). But how would you recommend building him from there?
Alright, well, I'm pretty sure that this is the character type I'm going to go with. I just got to roll his stats too, and they're phenominal (18,17,17,14,10,10). He's an inquisitor of Erastil, and his 1st feat will be martial weapon proficiency (greataxe). But how would you recommend building him from there?
well....when he gets to second level i would suggest rolling for more hit points, he's likely to need those....and i would definitely do that again at third....
Seriously tho.... assuming those are the rolls....
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 17
Wis 17
Chr 10
use the +2 stat bonus for being human on constitution.
I had figured I would go
Str 17
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 12 (10+2)
Wis 18
Chr 10
Wisdom seems hugely important for inquisitors. A little higher than I'd consider with point buy, but with a starting wis at 18, I should ever have to worry about it again.
As far as int goes, I usually love high it characters, but I'm already playing a few, and I want this character to be sharp, but he doesn't need to be a genius. 8 skill points ought to be plenty for him (9 if I use my favored class for another). Charisma is more or less unused, 14 con seems pretty solid, and I figure that the 17s in str and dex make him pretty solid in melee and ranged combat. I was wondering what kind of feats you'd recommend, mostly.
ok well let me peak at our inquisitor....
wait never mind she uses a crossbow so its going to be different, she took focused shot (so she could use her int bonus on the xbow)
she also took rapid shot because she got a repeating xbow.
...but let me see....
Inqusitor is big on the teamwork feats, all of which seem fun and you have the judgements. you get team work feats as bonus feats through progression.
some of your spells have tasty flavor, and lots of utility, not alot of stuff to worry about things like spell concentrations, or meta magic feats tho... think id stay away from spell/magic feats.
your human and your burning a feat on great axe... hmmm If it were me... Id really look at going to half-orc you get great axe and falchion and you get all sorts of cool feats like smelling fear and such... and if it really bugged you maybe if the pass for human feat, but still get darkvision and access to the smell/scent feats. I really really want to try a half orc inquisitor with this flavor.
so assuming your not going in that direction?
try this direction... take quick draw (since your a switch hitter) and keep a quick draw shield and a morning star around handy in case you need to up your AC in a fight.
your not going to have a 13 int or i would suggest combat expertise as well.
i would avoid the ranged feats if I were you, because youll have spells, melee and ranged and your disposal so youll be doing alot.
I would suggest keeping to team work feats and going the path less traveled (ie improved bull rush, and that ilk)
it will keep you very utilitarian. you wont be the melee bad boy or the johnny sniper, or the combat caster, but you will do alot of things really well.... this class almost stinks a little too much of bard..lol
yea id look into quick draw, improved bull rush,maybe bump int one point at level 4 just to qualify for combat expertise.
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Str 20 (18+2), Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17, Chr 10
Put the +2 in where it is going to gain the most advantage. We also want your enlarged form to have an even bonus to damage so that when multiplied by 1.5 for a two handed weapon, rounding down doesn't bite you.
Inquisitor of Erastil, Growth subdomain chosen.
Feats:
1) Combat Reflexes (first level, your stuck with spear and bow)
Human) Point Blank Shot
At second level, take 1 level of Fighter. That gains you martial weapons proficiency and a spare feat.
2) Power Attack
Pick up Lucerne Hammer as your main weapon because it has reach over the greataxe. Wear a spiked gauntlet for striking those that come inside your reach. With your subdomain power of enlarge person as a swift action for a min/level, you are attacking with +10 to hit (1 BAB, 6*1.5 STR) and doing 3d6+9 to the foes in the 15-20 ft range. For those who close to the 5-10 ft range, you use the spiked gauntlet for +10 to hit, d6+6 damage (while enlarged).
3) Cleave ~ Cleave when their are opponents next to each other, and the Combat Reflexes comes in handy for the extra three possible attacks of opportunity per round as opponents move through your unusually large reach area. Power attack will add a bit more damage, as you get up in levels, a 3/4 BAB character cannot easily take negatives to hit. So, it is a "use when already confident of hitting" option. (To me, it is just a necessary prerequisite.)
4) Precise Strike (Teamwork feat) An extra d6 to any flanking attack is nice. Solo Tactics makes this an automatic for you.
5) Rapid Shot
By this time, you can afford an Efficient Quiver. Carry normal arrows and a composite bow rated for 20. And carry a large sized composite bow rated for 22 and large sized arrows. When you are enlarged, you fire only large sized arrows for 2d6+6 each. Normal is d8+5. With Rapid shot, you are at -2 off of normal to hit, but the extra arrow's worth of damage adds up. (Enlarge, then draw your properly sized weapon out of the extra dimensional space.)
7) Outflank (Teamwork feat) Flanking gives you a +4 to hit. The Precise strike make is pay off with the extra d6 damage.
7) open feat (pick something that ups the to hit. Probably weapon focus)
9) Vital Strike
The bow goes to 4d6+6 as a single shot, and the lucerne hammer goes to 6d6+9 for damage.
The growth subdomain is powerful, but it's drawback it a -2 to AC and the occasional squeezing issues. "Hulking out" will make you the focus of a lot of attacks, so spend a significant amount of money on AC.
Final note, the Adventurer's Armory has some nice surprise weapons like a spring loaded wrist sheath and the boot blade. They can make nice alternatives if you don't want to wear the spiked gauntlet.
You're not being penalised. Not all dieties are that much into warfare. A diety whose main portfolio is magic WOULD have the staff or dagger as thier favored weapon.
the whole "deity" favored weapon thing stinks too...I think all deities should use a favored weapon that is NOT a simple weapon.
some deity choices get cool weapons, others get stuck with something they already get... you shouldnt get penalized on a class feature basically because of the choice of god or alignment.
while i get that the entire mythos isnt set up as magic gods.... calistriia's whip? cmon gimp...
irori with the open hand strike (so do u get improved umarmed strike or do you just get gimped there too) should at least be umm i dunno, nun chucks.cayden cailen (or whatever) rapier? Pfffft gosh really?
sheylyn gets a glaive buts its a doofy god.
abadar gimped again light xbow...
my point is if this was RPG superstar and someone made a cleric archetype that got a "bonus weapon" that he already had as a base weapon, judges would jump all over the submission.
Yet in their own game they did it themselves..
Its not a character class feature if you get nothing out of it.
5 god choices gimp you on a weapon slot that is supposed to be part of your character, and two more are pffft (rapier and whip, which whip isnt really even a weapon)
You make a good point about Calistria. It seems like short sword suits her far better, being akin to the sting of a wasp.
no rapier is just frenchy renaissance not a good adventuring weapon. the flavor is just pfft
no rapier is just frenchy renaissance not a good adventuring weapon. the flavor is just pfftSeveral hundred Flynn inspired swashbuckler style characters disagree :P
my point exactly, flynn never played anything that wasnt frenchy, with tights that were way too tight.
I could nerd out here and delve into the differences between the rapier and the smallsword it's often portrayed as, but I shall exercise restraint.
Well (and this is going from my immediate recollection, I might make a few mistakes), the weapon properly called a rapier was several inches longer and heavier than it is traditionally portrayed today, and with a wider blade. The blade was usually triangular in shape, being a few inches wide where it met the hilt and tapering sharply to a point. It was used alongside some forms of heavy armor, and the fact that the flexible blade was able to more easily slip into the seams of connected plates was partially responsible for the decline in such armor's popularity. As combatants grew less reliant on armor and more reliant on evasive maneuvers and parrying to defend themselves, people began to develop lighter, quicker blades. The smallsword is what most people think of these days when they hear "rapier." A blade that was shorter than it's precursor and usually fairly straight (as opposed to earlier triangle shapes). The domed crossguard also started going out of style on these things in favor of lighter but more intricate workings around the hilt.
In short, a rapier saw some overlap in use with a few of the classic medieval weapons we associate with D&D, and could perform reasonably against armored opponents. It's reasonable for an adventurer to carry. The smallsword is another story.
rapier, sabre, epee all french.
cutlass is english
Further nerdity: The rapier originated in Italy, and its popularity flowed from there. Kyrt is correct, however based on what I understand, in that the rapier was never used as a battlefield weapon. It was a dueling blade, primarily, and a plain-clothes self-defense weapon gentlemen would wear in public. Fashion was part of the reason it began to replace the longsword as a weapon worn in plainclothes for self-defense over the years.
This is based on my (limited) knowledge of later period Historical European Martial Arts. I am, admittedly, not much of a rapier guy, being mostly focused on Italian and German longsword.
Further nerdity: The rapier originated in Italy, and its popularity flowed from there. Kyrt is correct, however based on what I understand, in that the rapier was never used as a battlefield weapon. It was a dueling blade, primarily, and a plain-clothes self-defense weapon gentlemen would wear in public. Fashion was part of the reason it began to replace the longsword as a weapon worn in plainclothes for self-defense over the years.
This is based on my (limited) knowledge of later period Historical European Martial Arts. I am, admittedly, not much of a rapier guy, being mostly focused on Italian and German longsword.
rapier is clearly a french word.
the weapon origin may be italian i dont know, but calling it a rapier...its french, and all muskateery.... I HATE it as a DND weapon
Since Italian and French are based on the same root language (Latin) it is pretty easy to get a word from one language that sounds a great deal like the it came from another.
Umm its not sounds like... Rapier IS a French word.
The RAPIER itself is french in origin, although it could be a weapon of italian design adopted by the french, i cant find proof it's not.
By the time the rapier comes about, Italy and France or no longer "just emerging" as separate peoples, it was well into Renaissance era.
as i said before rapier, epee (the flimsy version) are from france.
The whole foppy court thing, with the feathery hat, silly sleeves and the spandex like pants fighting with the silly little sword was all french fashion. Although I have to admit, from art Ive seen, the Italians excelled at making it look even sillier!
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Sounds like your dead-set on going with Erastil as your deity, but here is an alternative idea, just in case you decide to switch it up for whatever reason.
If you choose someone with the Magic Domain, and then take said Domain at lvl 1, the power allows you to have your melee weapon 'fly from your hand' a number of times/day, using your Wis mod for attack, instead of Dex, but still adding Str to the dmg. The weapon then magically reappears in your hand.
Im working on a switch hitter inquisitor as well, an Osirion who worships Nethys, I think (cant remember lol). I was wanting to use a bow, but when I found that power, I decided to focus my stat points to Str and Wis, and just use the Domain power for my ranged attacking, though you are limited the number of times a day you can do it.
Despite the character not actually throwing it, as the power says it flies from your hand, I believe you are still going to need PBS/Precise to get good with it, it sounds like a worthwhile investment.
Hope that helps!
the whole "deity" favored weapon thing stinks too...I think all deities should use a favored weapon that is NOT a simple weapon.
some deity choices get cool weapons, others get stuck with something they already get... you shouldnt get penalized on a class feature basically because of the choice of god or alignment.I think Paizo should have thrown us a bone on the favored deity weapons.
In fact, Im thinking of redoing them personally... maybe comming up with an either or column.
Well, not every cleric needs a martial weapon; as another poster remarked, they aren't always thematically appropriate.
What would be appropriate, though, is granting a cleric a deity-specific bonus with their god's favored weapon, such as the use of a feat or a bonus to attack or damage when using that weapon.