While I'm not fond of creating new sub-systems for the sake of creating new sub-systems, do you have a better mechanic in mind for the Magus?
Personally, I think Paizo's been doing a decent job with new systems like this. The mostly build on top of a system that's already there and can be condensed into a paragraph or two (though I confess that I like Paizo to a degree that might strain my credibility).
As point in fact, anyone remember Tome of Magic?
As critical as I have been in some threads about aspects of the Magus, I have no issue at all with the Arcane Pool. I think it's awesome. I don't get why it's more of an issue than any other class that has a finite amount of resources to manage, like the monk, or barbarians rage rounds, or whatever.
You have a set number. There are costs to abilities. Keep track of them like you do everything else in the game. What's the problem? Does this issue happen with hit points as well, or can players keep track of those?
I had a DM who thought not once. He kept track of each PC's hit points for them and we all only had a general idea of how close to death our characters were.
Must say, I can't agree.
I think the Arcane pool is a great idea and mechanic for the magus.
Must say, I can't agree.
I think the Arcane pool is a great idea and mechanic for the magus.
I would like to see more of the Magus' abilities relying on the Arcane Pool. Why should Metamagic Arcanas be usable only once per day when they could cost Arcane's points instead? Don't you think that the class would look more ''clean'' and less complicated that way?
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I would like to see more of the Magus' abilities relying on the Arcane Pool. Why should Metamagic Arcanas be usable only once per day when they could cost Arcane's points instead? Don't you think that the class would look more ''clean'' and less complicated that way?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if they cost points to use I won't pick them, except for maybe Quicken down the line. Right now I like them because its something I can do without depleting my fairly limited Pool.
If they made uses after the first one cost points I could get behind it, though.
Doesn´t seem confusing to me personally, or within the context of the rest of the game,
i.e. other half casters with usages/day mechanics like Paladin and Inquisitor,
this just happens to be very flexible... just like Monk Ki Pool.
Personally, I think the multiple ways facilitating off-spell-list access AND compatabilty of such with magus abilities is more problematic than it`s worth, but I´d rather see MORE usages of the Arcane Pool to replace such abilities, than ditch it all together. It seems like the consensus after the first round was ASKING for a monk-like point pool, and this is what we got. I can understand if somebody says the current Magus isn´t what they want to play, I would have preferred more of an arcane-1/2 caster rather than 3/4 caster, but within it`s role, I think an arcane pool is a great idea... /my2c
The part of all of it I don't like (beyond the current knowledge pool issues) is the way the spell pool specifically is set up.
I would rather it worked more like pearls of power -- instead of just letting you spontaneously cast any magus spell restoring spells you've already cast. I feel this would be more inline with a prepared caster -- especially when the magus already has several abilities he can use on the fly out of his arcane pool already.
Ideally (in my opinion) it would work like this:
Spell Pool(su): A magus can replenish the spell energy he has already expended with power from his arcane pool. As a standard action the magus spends a number of spell points equal to the spell level of the spell he wishes to restore, that spell is restored as if the magus had used a pearl of power. He can instead choose to restore the slot but not the specific spell allowing him to prepare a different spell in that slot.
Knowledge Pool(su): When preparing his spells for the day the magus can expend one point from his pool to prepare a spell that isn't in his spellbook. The spell must be from the magus list and he must have a copy of that spell available when he is preparing his spells (either from a scroll or a borrowed spellbook), however the copy isn't expended when the magus prepares it (in the case of a scroll) this way. The magus can prepare more than one spell this way -- each additional spell costs another spell point.
With this ability replacing greater spell pool:
Greater Knowledge Pool(Su): When preparing his spells for the day the magus can expend points from his spell pool to prepare arcane spells not normally on his spell list. He must spend a number of points equal to the spell level of the spell he wishes to prepare and must have a copy of the spell available to him when he is preparing his spells (either from a scroll or a borrowed spellbook), however the copy isn't expended when the magus prepares it (in the case of a scroll) this way. The magus can prepare more than one spell this way -- each additional spell costs additional points equal to the spell level of the additional spell he wishes to prepare.
+1 for Abe´s basic idea,
functioning like Pearls of Power just makes alot more sense for a Prepared Caster.
(combining Spontaneous Casting with ability to use Pearls of Power is cheesy)
(I`m fine with allowing a Bonded Item option in place of Familiar, but more than 1/x day is too much, and being forced to make the choice between Bonded Item and Familiar is a good ´difficult choice´ IMHO)
Let`s save the Spontaneous Casting Magicky-Fighter stuff for a REAL Spontaneous Casting Magicky-Fighter class.
I don´t like the Prepping from Scrolls bit, Knowledge Pool can be ditched completely IMHO (or re-done as a simple ability to re-roll Knowledge checks by cashing in Arcane Points). I think being subject to the same economic (gold) and campaign restrictions (finding spells and then finding time to scribe in spellbook) is the absolute minimum for allowing ANY access to off-list casting in the first place. I don´t really like that much at all, but they definitely shouldn´t have an EASIER time than real Wizards.
Yeah I'm not fond of the "Oh you destroyed my spellbook, no problem I'm just going to prepared all my spells anyways" thing the Magus has going on.
OP: So rather than ask for clarification on how Improved Spell Pool works, or make a public request for the game designers to improve the wording before it hits final print, you decide to demand that the designers COMPLETELY ELIMINATE the core ability of this (now) awesome class?
Why not do something useful, like setting your player straight, rather than wasting our time and the developers' time.
It's one thing to ask for an ability to be dropped because you think it will improve the class, but what you have here is the equivalent of going up to a developer, slapping him in the face, and calling his creation "STOOPID!"
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OP: So rather than ask for clarification on how Improved Spell Pool works, or make a public request for the game designers to improve the wording before it hits final print, you decide to demand that the designers COMPLETELY ELIMINATE the core ability of this (now) awesome class?
Why not do something useful, like setting your player straight, rather than wasting our time and the developers' time.
It's one thing to ask for an ability to be dropped because you think it will improve the class, but what you have here is the equivalent of going up to a developer, slapping him in the face, and calling his creation "STOOPID!"
I'm not demanding anything, just putting in my opinion. I did put the player straight. Last I checked, this is for input, whether it is positive or not. Seems like you're the only one wasting people's time with those kinds of offensive comments.
Deep breath folks.....
We all have our likes and dislikes, and we all have our opinions as to which direction the class should go.
If they made uses after the first one cost points I could get behind it, though.
I made a remake that does it that way. The first use per day is free, then more uses cost points. It's very nice. Makes the arcana attractive and worth it.
I made a remake that does it that way. The first use per day is free, then more uses cost points. It's very nice. Makes the arcana attractive and worth it.
If they made uses after the first one cost points I could get behind it, though.
I could get behind it too.
Sorry for being overly harsh, Chris. It was uncalled for.
Eliminating the arcana pool would bring the magus back to a major problem the first version had. The 15 minute workday. Every class ability revolved around using the spells of a 3/4 caster. Or at least most of them. And a 3/4 caster cant cast all day long. There HAS to be another resource. Without it the magus becomes an npc class, as it just wouldnt work as a pc in most games where you have to deal with multiple encounters in a day.
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I made a remake that does it that way. The first use per day is free, then more uses cost points. It's very nice. Makes the arcana attractive and worth it.
If they made uses after the first one cost points I could get behind it, though.I could get behind it too.
Sorry for being overly harsh, Chris. It was uncalled for.
It's alright. I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. Just prefer a nicer approach to it.
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Seems like a good idea. The times its been used in my games, it just hasn't worked out. There's been confusion or weirdness going on. The player using the magus just completely ignores the arcane pool. The original magus has worked much better in my games.If you're going to post this.. you should at least suggest an alternative mechanic for all the things the Arcane Pool supports... unless your point is to get rid of them as well. I don't think that a lot of people would be that happy to go back to the original burn spells to power your abilities model.
The arcane pool is not that new a mechanic... it's a retooled version of ki pool, rage pool, and so on.
I did say that I prefer the first version of the Magus. The Ki pool is something I'm not a fan of either. The point pool thing is something I've never been a fan of.
I would like to see more of the Magus' abilities relying on the Arcane Pool. Why should Metamagic Arcanas be usable only once per day when they could cost Arcane's points instead? Don't you think that the class would look more ''clean'' and less complicated that way?Must say, I can't agree.
I think the Arcane pool is a great idea and mechanic for the magus.
Agree completely.
I did say that I prefer the first version of the Magus. The Ki pool is something I'm not a fan of either. The point pool thing is something I've never been a fan of.Seems like a good idea. The times its been used in my games, it just hasn't worked out. There's been confusion or weirdness going on. The player using the magus just completely ignores the arcane pool. The original magus has worked much better in my games.If you're going to post this.. you should at least suggest an alternative mechanic for all the things the Arcane Pool supports... unless your point is to get rid of them as well. I don't think that a lot of people would be that happy to go back to the original burn spells to power your abilities model.
The arcane pool is not that new a mechanic... it's a retooled version of ki pool, rage pool, and so on.
It´s understandable, a permanent magic weapon is way better. On the other hand the pool solves a lot of the old problems.
Deep breath folks.....
We all have our likes and dislikes, and we all have our opinions as to which direction the class should go.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Play nice, folks.
In PFRPG beta the barbarian had a rage pool that was dropped , mainly because of all the concerns about bookkeeping. Why bring the same mechanic back, if it got dropped for the barb? (although the barb version was alot more difficult to keep track of than magus/monk)
I personally think the arcane pool is just as frustrating as the ki pool, it always seems to be 3-4 points short of making it what it should be.
monk really takes a back seat in a lot of parties (most) because of the gimped ki pool. I think the arcane pool is sitting on a fence, and it needs to go one way or the other (either eliminate it, ie the rage pool, or boost it so it doesnt end up being another "monk" frustration)
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In PFRPG beta the barbarian had a rage pool that was dropped , mainly because of all the concerns about bookkeeping. Why bring the same mechanic back, if it got dropped for the barb? (although the barb version was alot more difficult to keep track of than magus/monk)
I wasn't around for the beta but what I gather from people who were and designers is that efforts were made to keep core simple whenever possible. Expansions like the APG and Ultimate Magic are not under this restriction. That's why the APG was way more complicated classes like the Summoner.
I personally think the arcane pool is just as frustrating as the ki pool, it always seems to be 3-4 points short of making it what it should be.
I keep reading this but finding no evidence for it in playtests. It sounds like people want more points, not that they need them.
monk really takes a back seat in a lot of parties (most) because of the gimped ki pool. I think the arcane pool is sitting on a fence, and it needs to go one way or the other (either eliminate it, ie the rage pool, or boost it so it doesnt end up being another "monk" frustration)
The smallish ki pool isn't even the beginning of why Monk's aren't good. They would be much better if they had class abilities of a similar power level to those available to the Magus. Monks take a backseat in parties because they are less good at everything compared to other classes.
In PFRPG beta the barbarian had a rage pool that was dropped , mainly because of all the concerns about bookkeeping. Why bring the same mechanic back, if it got dropped for the barb? (although the barb version was alot more difficult to keep track of than magus/monk)I wasn't around for the beta but what I gather from people who were and designers is that efforts were made to keep core simple whenever possible. Expansions like the APG and Ultimate Magic are not under this restriction. That's why the APG was way more complicated classes like the Summoner.
I personally think the arcane pool is just as frustrating as the ki pool, it always seems to be 3-4 points short of making it what it should be.I keep reading this but finding no evidence for it in playtests. It sounds like people want more points, not that they need them.
monk really takes a back seat in a lot of parties (most) because of the gimped ki pool. I think the arcane pool is sitting on a fence, and it needs to go one way or the other (either eliminate it, ie the rage pool, or boost it so it doesnt end up being another "monk" frustration)The smallish ki pool isn't even the beginning of why Monk's aren't good. They would be much better if they had class abilities of a similar power level to those available to the Magus. Monks take a backseat in parties because they are less good at everything compared to other classes.
IF the monk had more KI to work with this would be less of an issue.
Seems like Magus has some rough early levels, maybe an arcane pool bump at the low levels that evens off as the magus grows in power?
More initial points but keep the same progression as the magus levels perhaps (just to pick up those 3-4 points)
Need is a relative term compared to want, especially in terms of role playing.
I think the issue is if 3-4 more arcane pool points tips the scales and unbalances the class?
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I think the issue is if 3-4 more arcane pool points tips the scales and unbalances the class?
Three or four extra points isn't the issue. Most people I see want Arcane Points equal to level plus Int. That's nearly double the amount that they currently get.
If the Magus were to get any more Points I would suggest just one at 2nd level, similar to the bonus feat progression of a Fighter. It's a bit of action for one more fight in a day but not so many as other people want.
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I prefer the current version of Magus to the original. It's much simpler for me to understand, and that's got to be a good thing!
I like the Arcane Pool idea - it lets you do extra things, but not everything. In any case, since I mainly play in PFS games, I'll never get to use the higher lvl abilities anyway..... :(
Oh- BTW, I love playing Ftr/Mages since AD&D 2nd Ed, so I might be tad biased! lol
Thanks
Paul H
Remove the arcane pool, and you're already half-way there to just playing an eldrich knight, except with a lesser selection of spells. Seems to me the magus plugs a few holes with making an eldrich knight (especially at the early levels) and makes it live up to the concept at any level. Arcana help give a bit of instant oomph to the class, which is balanced out by a lower total arcane potential in the long run.
Before the magus I had a hard time visualizing why one would want to play an eldrich knight, now that I see the magus I know the how, but the magus does it much smoother than the eldrich knight could
In PFRPG beta the barbarian had a rage pool that was dropped , mainly because of all the concerns about bookkeeping. Why bring the same mechanic back, if it got dropped for the barb? (although the barb version was alot more difficult to keep track of than magus/monk)
I personally think the arcane pool is just as frustrating as the ki pool, it always seems to be 3-4 points short of making it what it should be.
monk really takes a back seat in a lot of parties (most) because of the gimped ki pool. I think the arcane pool is sitting on a fence, and it needs to go one way or the other (either eliminate it, ie the rage pool, or boost it so it doesnt end up being another "monk" frustration)
How is it any more book keeping then a bard's songs? Or a barbarian's rounds of rage? Arguments can be made as to whether its too little or enough, but to say its difficult to keep track of is nonsense. There are a ton of x/day mechanics out there already and they havent brought the game to a hault. A simple tally somewhere on your character sheet (mines on the bottom margin) should suffice there.
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A simple tally somewhere on your character sheet (mines on the bottom margin) should suffice there.
I have a binder that I keep notes in. On the left margin I keep track of used class abilities and whatnot.
The Inquisitor for whom I used this most recently had way more limited abilities per day than the Magus and I never had a problem.
@Kabeth; What is the point cost to use ratio you have used, for uses of meta-abilities, after the one daily currently allowed? Thanks! :)
I would note too that the Magus is absolutely fantastic imho, and I would hate to see the arcane pool to go away.
How is it any more book keeping then a bard's songs? Or a barbarian's rounds of rage? Arguments can be made as to whether its too little or enough, but to say its difficult to keep track of is nonsense. There are a ton of x/day mechanics out there already and they havent brought the game to a hault. A simple tally somewhere on your character sheet (mines on the bottom margin) should suffice there.In PFRPG beta the barbarian had a rage pool that was dropped , mainly because of all the concerns about bookkeeping. Why bring the same mechanic back, if it got dropped for the barb? (although the barb version was alot more difficult to keep track of than magus/monk)
I personally think the arcane pool is just as frustrating as the ki pool, it always seems to be 3-4 points short of making it what it should be.
monk really takes a back seat in a lot of parties (most) because of the gimped ki pool. I think the arcane pool is sitting on a fence, and it needs to go one way or the other (either eliminate it, ie the rage pool, or boost it so it doesnt end up being another "monk" frustration)
I didnt say it was hard to keep track of, i liked the rage pool. They made it rounds of rage because of all the concern about book keeping.
Rage pool was way different than rounds of rage, Each rage power cost rage points, depending on how many rage powers you used in that round, determined the amount of rage points consumed, and ultimately the side effects of what happened when you came out of rage.Now its just rounds of rage, and you are exhausted for the number of rounds you were in rage for (irreguardless of the number of rage powers you used.)
Rage points were better than rage rounds.
But...if we went so far as to can rage points, why resurrect this mechanic for another class? (thats all i was saying)
But...if we went so far as to can rage points, why resurrect this mechanic for another class? (thats all i was saying)Because in the case of the Barbarian (and Bard) you already had precedent of a per day timered mechanic. This was then changed to rounds per day and additional abilities expended rounds of the base ability.
The Magus doesn't have a per day ability to base additional abilities off off (unless you want to expend spells, which were too high a price and why a point pool was used in v2).
I still think it could use a few more points in the pool (3-4)