One of my friends is currently running his homebrew campaign on weekends. This is his first time as DM and things have been going fairly well but he is having a really hard time presenting challenging encounters for our group.
He is forever complaining our group is horribly overpowered. In reality I would say most of the problems are based on his inexperience and not building/playing his encounters as well as he could.
As a result he has taken steps to counter our perceived excessive power in several ways.
The first being ramping encounters up so that the average seems to be about APL+4 and just awarding less experience than they are actually worth despite already having us on the "slow" exp progression..
Secondly, while out treasure is only a little below average we have not had any chances to sell any of it as of yet, even after finally making it back to town.
Now on their own these a certainly tolerable choices but my friend is getting frustrated with constantly boosting all of his encounters and is now looking to take the nerf bat to our party in a very unique way.
He has let slip that as part the plot for his campaign he had originally planned on granting each of us a minor class ability of a bard. However, in light of our current strength he instead plans on making everyone in the group (with the exception of our newest player) take a mandatory level in BARD within the next lvl or two.
Needless to say I was shocked when I realized I would lose a full level in one of the worst classes to multi-class out of and not even gain a single cantrip for it due to my 8 cha! The rest of our party wouldn't be much better off either. My friend said he was well aware of this and that it is his way or "reigning us in".
I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts on this style of player nerf, as well as advice on avoiding it? Maybe by presenting a better alternative to my DM?
I can post my build if anyone wants to weigh in on just how OP my char actually is? (I am generally cited as one of the two biggest offenders for character optimization)
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Maybe you could help him design some encounters? He's a newbie GM, so it's not like he knows what he's doing, really. Have you heard of the book of challenges? Or DM for Dummies? Extreme Dungeon Mastering? Maybe your DM could benefit from a book like these, which have excellent ideas on how to challenge characters and players both.
I think it's a pretty crappy way of trying to control the power of a party. There are many plot devices that can be used to "reign in" a party without taking direct control of their character.
Why is he so upset? Are the battles too quick? Is he upset because he feels that he is losing (DM's are forced to lose sometimes)? What stat buy did you guys get? What level are you? Is he over rewarding you with magic? Is the game too open ended and allowing you to mercilessly run rampant on the town? I would need to know more about the campaign and the specific reason for the OP feeling before i could make a more accurate suggestion, but I would be upset if my DM was doing this to me in the middle of the campaign.
It's a crappy move on his part, and it sorta goes against the unwritten rule of gaming: If it isn't fun, it isn't worth playing. I'd recommend going with what the others in this post are saying: Help your fledgeling DM out and maybe design a few encounters for him to show him how its done.
Otherwise, make the best of it! Bard is a really versatile class, and with all the archtypes available in the APG you could pick something that adds a unique flavor to your character. Try not to look at it like a penalty- after all, everyone in the group is taking a level. Arcane Duelist nets you Arcane Strike, which is +1 damage for a swift action. If you can get a ahold of a +4 charisma item you'll be golden with some minor magical support. Hell, even a +2 and a level bump could net you a handfull of cantrips and a 1st level spell each day.
Or, walk away. That's always an option.
Half of the time this comes up is because the player character is adding something up wrong or misreading a rule so posting a build never hurts
Thank you all for your replies,
I'm now worried that my post may have sounded harsher than I had intended. Our DM is a close friend of mine and an all around good guy.
His main problem to the best of my understanding is that while his grasp of the rules is relatively strong, he lacks the experience to know the true impact of some spells and effects that have less to do with basic statistics.
I have given him the Book of Challenges back when he first started planning the campaign and he often comes to me for advice on aspects of the campaign but seems to have issues with actually following my advice on things like the use of spell like abilities and tactics. (We have had several fights with drow nobles and have only seen deeper darkness used once...)
Why is he so upset? Are the battles too quick? Is he upset because he feels that he is losing (DM's are forced to lose sometimes)? What stat buy did you guys get? What level are you? Is he over rewarding you with magic? Is the game too open ended and allowing you to mercilessly run rampant on the town? I would need to know more about the campaign and the specific reason for the OP feeling before i could make a more accurate suggestion, but I would be upset if my DM was doing this to me in the middle of the campaign.
Our party is mostly about halfway through lvl 6 currently, we used 20 point stat buy and our actual usable wealth hasn't gone up more than a couple thousand gp since we started at lvl 5. Our group has 3 main players with another 3 who come sporadically, 4-5 is the standard group.
I think a lot of the OP feeling comes from the start of the campaign when we were captured by drow and enslaved in their small outpost. Rather than sneak around the town for several sessions we ended up crushing a large number of the guards and forcing the drow to abandon the town by the end of the first session. Our DM has since corrected many of the mistakes that led to such a serious defeat but I think the feeling of us running rampant over his ideas has stayed with him.
Beyond that his feelings likely come from the fact that he hasn't been able to effectively neutralize the party archer and generally finds the damage dished out by my inquisitor's bane ability intimidating.
All in all I think everything will be fine in a couple weeks when he is done with this semester and has more free time to re-evaluate his encounter design and make better use of his resources and advice from the party. I just don't want us all to be stuck with a lvl of bard I REALLY don't want.
New DM probably shouldn't really be doing a homebrew. He'd be better off using an established setting and try using some pre-made adventures so that things are scaled correctly.
New DM probably shouldn't really be doing a homebrew. He'd be better off using an established setting and try using some pre-made adventures so that things are scaled correctly.
I agree and had offered to let him use one of my pathfinder APs for his first time behind the screen but he was really keen to use his own material.
Half of the time this comes up is because the player character is adding something up wrong or misreading a rule so posting a build never hurts
Dwarf Inquisitor Lvl 6
Str - 13
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 10
Wis - 20
Cha - 8
4th lvl stat boost in Wis
HP 48
AC 21 (7 +1 breastplate, 2 dex, 2 light shield)
Init +7
Speed 30ft
Fort +8 (+4 vs spells +poison)
Ref +5 (+4 vs spells)
Will +11 (+4 vs spells)
+1 Rapier +6 (1d6+2/18-20x2)
CMB +5
CMD 17
Feats : Steel Soul, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Precise Strike, Outflank
Domain : Travel (Exploration)
Spells : DC 15+spell level Concentration +14
0-Level : Resistance, Detect Magic, Brand, Read Magic, Sift, Detect Poison
1-Level 6/day : Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Protection From Evil, Command
2-Level 4/day : Castigate, Invisibility, See Invisibility, Tongues
Items :
Headband of Wis +1 (Made by our summoner)
Cloak of Resistance +1
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Persistent Spell
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
light shield is only 1 point of AC -- is it a magical shield? Also combining the armored kilt with the breastplate makes it heavy armor -- which you are currently not proficient with so you are taking a penalty to hit (-3 to be exact).
Power attack with a rapier at level 6 inquisitor with the build you have present should have +4+1+1-3= +3 to hit -- take off that armored kilt and you are back to +6 -- before you use power attack which puts you back to +4.
Honestly that's a -- well it's not "optimized" by any stretch. What in the world are you using that persistent metamagic rod on? Also what is a cloak of wisdom and how does it stack with the headband? Finally I'm not seeing where the last +3 on your concentration checks is coming from.
*These are just points I see -- not saying you have "done bad" or are trying to cheat or anything like that -- I'm just pointing out things that don't jive so you can explain them better to us, or realize a possible mistake.*
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New DM probably shouldn't really be doing a homebrew. He'd be better off using an established setting and try using some pre-made adventures so that things are scaled correctly.Dwarf Inquisitor Lvl 6
Str - 13
Dex - 14
Con - 14
Int - 10
Wis - 20
Cha - 8
4th lvl stat boost in WisHP 48
AC 22 (7 +1 breastplate, 2 dex, 2 light shield, 1 armored kilt)Init +7
Speed 30ftFort +8 (+4 vs spells +poison)
Ref +5 (+4 vs spells)
Will +11 (+4 vs spells)+1 Rapier +6 (1d6+2/18-20x2)
CMB +5
CMD 17Feats : Steel Soul, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Precise Strike, Outflank
Domain : Travel (Exploration)
Spells : DC 15+spell level Concentration +14
0-Level : Resistance, Detect Magic, Brand, Read Magic, Sift, Detect Poison
1-Level 6/day : Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Protection From Evil, Command
2-Level 4/day : Castigate, Invisibility, See Invisibility, TonguesItems :
Headband of Wis +1 (Made by our summoner)
Cloak of Wisdom
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Persistent Spell
Wand of Cure Light Wounds
Not terribly familiar with the Inquisitor as I haven't seen one in play yet, so I might be missing something, but the only thing that jumps out at me is your Concentration check should be +11 (1d20 + level + Wis Mod). Again, maybe I'm missing some Inquisitor ability that improves that. Overall it just looks like a strong build that emphasizes many of the character's strengths... Steel Soul is a nice feat, that +4 racial bonus might be frustrating for an inexperienced GM. My PC's dwarven monk cohort has it and it makes him really tough against spells. You've got a good base AC to begin with and with Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil potentially stacking on top of that, your guy is probably pretty hard to hit when buffed as well.
That said this character doesn't look broken, just well built and tightly focused. I think it is likely your GM just needs more experience building encounters and perhaps some tactical advice.
One question though: Cloak of Wisdom? What is it and does it stack with the headband?
Sorry edited the previous post...
The armored kilt was suggested to me by one of the other players a couple weeks ago, didn't mention the it would be heavy armor but it makes sense (I should know better than to trust an Antipaladin...).
Concentration was a typo, same as the cloak which is Resistance +1.
Persistent Rod is for Castigate
The DM can design my character when he pries the sheet out of my cold, dead hands.
The DM can design my character when he pries the sheet out of my cold, dead hands.
My thoughts exactly!
Not terribly familiar with the Inquisitor as I haven't seen one in play yet, so I might be missing something, but the only thing that jumps out at me is your Concentration check should be +11 (1d20 + level + Wis Mod). Again, maybe I'm missing some Inquisitor ability that improves that. Overall it just looks like a strong build that emphasizes many of the character's strengths... Steel Soul is a nice feat, that +4 racial bonus might be frustrating for an inexperienced GM. My PC's dwarven monk cohort has it and it makes him really tough against spells. You've got a good base AC to begin with and with Shield of Faith and Protection from Evil potentially stacking on top of that, your guy is probably pretty hard to hit when buffed as well.
That said this character doesn't look broken, just well built and tightly focused. I think it is likely your GM just needs more experience building encounters and perhaps some tactical advice.One question though: Cloak of Wisdom? What is it and does it stack with the headband?
Thanks for your thoughts, but I only have Shield of Faith till I can drop it at lvl 8 as I hadn't noticed that the AC bonus doesn't actually stack with Protection from Evil when I made the char.
I should mention Tongues is mainly there so I can put the fear of god in a wider variety of opponents ;)
Damn! it didn't edit properly, yes the shield is +1 and my concentration should only be +11 (Copied from the original version on my computer which I have since updated/changed for my actual sheet)
Two things.
First, the DM has *some* control on PC's in as much as he can put things off limits if he is not familiar with/comfortable with allowgin them (sic, Leadership Feat) He does not create your character, nor decide what classes you take (unless he has black listed certain things (see above)).
Second, the DM is a novice. He requires training. He also seems to be taking PC success as the DM losing. Bad mindset to be in. If you can, sit with him *outside of game night* and look at some of the fights you all have been in. Review it in stages-What was supposed to happen? What did happen? What can you do better next time? Build on experiences. Look closely at monsters abilities and how they can synergize with other monster abilities. What spells did enemy casters have, how could they have been used differently? The point is to see the game as a whole, not just the now.
(looking at your PC, I don't see anything that stands out as 'overpowered' AC21 at 6th level for a melee? *shrug* not a big deal. Your damage is good enough to be helpful, but not a super being by any stretch. Spells, sure you have 'em, but if you were trying to be caster you could have been a cleric, oracle, wizard or sorc and done it better. Iis it safe to assume your other players are about the same 'power level'?)
GNOME
Just a thought, but if you only have 3 regular players and 3 intermittent players, is it possible that this is part of the problem?
Even if he is familiar with designing encounters, if he shoots for a standard party, he'll end up with a difficult encounter for the 3 core players, but a comparatively easy encounter if you all show up. Re-balancing isn't always as simple as upping the number of monsters.
That said, maybe try going with his bard idea. I've played in campaigns before where some class levels in rogue have been mandatory (thieves' guild) and at least one where we all had a few NPC levels. The difference here is that those were usually at the beginning on the campaign, and everyone was aware of that going in.
In your situation, I wouldn't necessarily be upset at having to take levels for story reasons. With a homebrew, the GM can always scale the encounters down as well. However, an entire party of bards might be a bit redundant. Inspire courage doesn't stack with itself, and if you're only getting a few levels worth of bard, that may be a hindrance.
If there is a valid story reason for doing this, maybe ask him to discuss it with the group. It might be more appealing to the party if there were multiple options. For some characters, a level of bard may be appropriate, but perhaps with alternate class features. Would wisdom-based spellcasting make this more appealing to you? The alternate class features he originally suggested? Maybe just a few mandatory ranks in perform?
The fluctuating party size was a concern when we were planning the game and so decided that he would plan for 5 players each session and adjust down if needed when our turnout was lower. At present I think we have only ever had groups of 4 and 5 players each session so it hasn't really come up at all.
As far as rolling with the Bard idea I am not entirely opposed to the idea, as long as I could actually get some use out of it. I proposed the idea of wisdom based casting to him but his whole reason for changing it from a single bonus bard feature was so that it would act as a nerf for our characters.
I keep coming to this thread, and hoping to read the in game reason as to "why" everyone will get a bard level. Did everyone join a bardic college? If the only reason is to make characters weaker, then why not a level of aristocrat or commoner? Or heck, just give everyone a curse that takes 2 from every stat and gives you a permanent -2 to your BAB, just cuz.
If my character is being Forced to take a level of something I never envisioned him to take, I want a darn good RP reason why. If it is just for the DM's whim because he cannot effectively handle the party and does not seek offered venues of aid, than I agree with Snobi. Bye bye. I would privately share my feelings about the decision, and quit. This in no way would be a reflection of our friendship, but being a friend does not REQUIRE me to play in the game.
It would give me time to try out some PbP stuff. Never having done it, I would use the opportunity to enhance a facit of my RP and play in that LoSH pbp looking for players :P
Summation: Good RP reason... stick it out. If some sort of immagined quickie fix...TOODLES!!!
Greg
Two things.
First, the DM has *some* control on PC's in as much as he can put things off limits if he is not familiar with/comfortable with allowgin them (sic, Leadership Feat) He does not create your character, nor decide what classes you take (unless he has black listed certain things (see above)).
Second, the DM is a novice. He requires training. He also seems to be taking PC success as the DM losing. Bad mindset to be in. If you can, sit with him *outside of game night* and look at some of the fights you all have been in. Review it in stages-What was supposed to happen? What did happen? What can you do better next time? Build on experiences. Look closely at monsters abilities and how they can synergize with other monster abilities. What spells did enemy casters have, how could they have been used differently? The point is to see the game as a whole, not just the now.
(looking at your PC, I don't see anything that stands out as 'overpowered' AC21 at 6th level for a melee? *shrug* not a big deal. Your damage is good enough to be helpful, but not a super being by any stretch. Spells, sure you have 'em, but if you were trying to be caster you could have been a cleric, oracle, wizard or sorc and done it better. Iis it safe to assume your other players are about the same 'power level'?)
GNOME
First off I have no issue with certain things being disallowed in a campaign or even with the idea of something like a mandatory level as part of the story, so long as we know ahead of time and can plan for it or if it can be tailored to suit each character. Hell if I had known I probably would have just played a full Bard (As I stated I am a big fan of the class). What I take offense to is the fact that at this point it is less about adding to the story and more about working our party over with the nerf bat.
Secondly, you are probably right and I should spend more time helping him out. I do try to offer him advice about the campaign whenever I am able while being careful to make sure it as constructive as possible. However, in this case a full deconstruction of an encounter or two and a total overhaul of his planning methods may be needed to make him feel confident about the challenges he presents to us.
Overall I would say that our 3 main players are all at about the same level with the other 3 being slightly less impressive due to the relative inexperience of the players.
My char has a bit of bible belt preacher when in combat, so I use my offensive spells to that effect on a fairly regular basis and seem to get pretty good mileage out of it. (Notably managed to keep a lvl 8 drow cleric on the ground long enough for myself and the Antipaladin to take her down while the rest of the group fended off her 3 drider companions)
Our group breaks down as such:
Our 3 Main Players are :
Dwarf Inquisitor 6 - Melee tank and secondary damage dealer. Has good skills and makes a good scout while indoors thanks to his domain.
Assimar Antipaladin of Shax 6 - Party face with high Cha, secondary tank, uses touch of corruption to good effect. Is great help in making my fear spells stick, all the while insisting he is a "Paragon of Virtue"
Human Archer Fighter5/Wizard 1 - Main damage dealer, uses mounted archery to remain extremely mobile (Or will when he finds a new horse, previous one got hit with Death Knell from the Antipaladin during the fight with the driders and priestess) Plans to go arcane archer in the future, actually took his Wizard level early in order to delay getting extra arrows and avoid irking our DM even more than he does already.
Our less constant characters are:
Elven Alchemist 6 - Secondary damage dealer, good for potions/items, could be built better in my opinion but still does quite well thanks to only needed to make touch AC.
Gnome Summoner 6 - Ultimate support char, eidolon is awesome flanker but prefers to charge+pounce stragglers instead and haste is about the best spell ever for it's level. Doesn't quite live up to his full potential as this the the players first time playing d&d.
Human Rogue 6 - Joined last week (effectively replaced our sorcerer who left the same time, had only made 1 session anyway), total skill monkey and great for flanking.
I keep coming to this thread, and hoping to read the in game reason as to "why" everyone will get a bard level. Did everyone join a bardic college? If the only reason is to make characters weaker, then why not a level of aristocrat or commoner? Or heck, just give everyone a curse that takes 2 from every stat and gives you a permanent -2 to your BAB, just cuz.
If my character is being Forced to take a level of something I never envisioned him to take, I want a darn good RP reason why. If it is just for the DM's whim because he cannot effectively handle the party and does not seek offered venues of aid, than I agree with Snobi. Bye bye. I would privately share my feelings about the decision, and quit. This in no way would be a reflection of our friendship, but being a friend does not REQUIRE me to play in the game.
It would give me time to try out some PbP stuff. Never having done it, I would use the opportunity to enhance a facit of my RP and play in that LoSH pbp looking for players :P
Summation: Good RP reason... stick it out. If some sort of immagined quickie fix...TOODLES!!!
Greg
My apologies, I should have included this earlier but while I don't know all the specifics but the reasoning has to do with the fact that his world has no music in it. So far it hasn't really come up much beyond a quick mention near the beginning but I am to understand that we will be releasing music out into the world at some point in the near future and that we are supposed to take the level in Bard due to the "Inspiring Effect" it has on us. (And yes I have pointed out that not all bards even play music...)
I would help him out. As for the mandatory bard nonsense that would not happen. I would not write it down on my character sheet. I would level up in the class I wanted. I would offer to DM in his place. I would do a lot of things, and I understand he is new, but no DM tells me what I am going to play. Explain to him why his encounters are not challenging. Maybe it is tactics, maybe the dice gods hate him. Whatever the reason is break it down. I know I was terrible my first time.
That has got to be the worst solution to keeping characters in check I have heard. Ever. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how he came up with that.
Most of my players are pretty optimized (I can't imagine having a problem with yours, at all) and I have to carefully plan each encounter so they don't just bulldoze through it. It's really helped me learn to adapt as a DM and our encounters have gotten a lot more fun. A few things every DM should take into consideration when creating an encounter.
1) Never have your players fight a single, powerful foe (except if you really know what you're doing). The system doesn't support it due to action economy, and the foe will either end up being way too powerful or just too damn easy.
2) Terrain, terrain, terrain. This can make a huge difference. Planting a bunch of archers onto the field might not make a big hinderance, but planting them behind a cover, uphill, with traps laid to cover their weak points can turn a bunch of mooks into a considerable challenge. Planting difficult terrain against a foe that doesn't mind it is great as well. Bull Rushing players into a pool of acid or a spiked pit is always a lot of fun, too! Often, the monsters will be in a situation where they have prepared themselves for an attack, so design an encounter with that in mind.
3) Enemy spellcasters. I can't stress this enough. Spells are the most powerful weapon characters in Pathfinder can have, so use that as often as you can. They don't even need to be high level. Simple spells such as grease, glitterdust, invisibility and enfeebling ray can do a lot to challenge your players. Have the monsters work as a group, teamwork isn't limited only to the PCs.
These are a few things I have used to great effect when dealing with my optimized players. Try suggesting some of these to your DM and see if he can come up with something challenging. It might require a bit of thinking, but it'll make things more fun for both sides.
I know I was terrible my first time.
Wraith, I think we all were. But thankfully we all got to have a second time and get better at it :) I think more than mandating silliness the DM in question just needs some good mentoring.
For the OP: Have thought to ask him about encounters from his player experience that he found challenging and enjoyable; deconstruct those too :)
GNOME
Ew. That's a horrible solution. Why not just let the PCs trail in experience by a level or two? Chances are this GM has miscalculated treasure or actions, or some other one of the unspoken factors in CR.
Forcing the whole party to take a level in a class is just... weird.
On the other hand it will backfire as it will give you a bunch of skills and a bunch of skills as class skills +3 that you can use at any time an put points into at any time to get those +3's anytime :) you suddenly become a skill monkey :) at a slow progression, but a skill monkey none the less ;) Yes I have escape artist, you gave it to me, yes I have knowledge local, you gave it to me, yes I have ... as a class skill you gave it to me ;)
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How many other people in the party have a charisma of 8? This kind of thing really annoys me. Albeit that it can make for an interesting RP experience sometimes player RP themselves or what they view instead of the charisma 8. Dont wana start an argument i'm just saying that the party may be perceived as OP because of optimizing? Is the DM an anti optimizer?
Some thoughts and questions.
Are the players having fun, or is everyone on board with the idea that the encounters are not challenging and that this is a problem?
Are the encounters panning out in ways that the GM did not anticipate? If so, does he regard this as a problem or an opportunity?
As it stands right now, I would say that our encounters over the past few weeks have actually been rather good as far as providing a proper challenge and being a lot of fun to play. The problem however is that this is the result of him raising the CR of each fight by 2-4 or so (last encounter being against a lvl 10 pre-buffed Druid and her companion plus a couple dominated animals), in fairness this is generally an ok option for the time being, as he learns how to make the most of his enemies. The problem arises because he wants to keep the monsters he had originally planned on and isn't wanting to keep adding multiple templates and or levels to them. He is merely rankling at the CR's we are successfully handling because he doesn't feel it's right.
wraithstrike wrote:
I know I was terrible my first time.Wraith, I think we all were. But thankfully we all got to have a second time and get better at it :) I think more than mandating silliness the DM in question just needs some good mentoring.
For the OP: Have thought to ask him about encounters from his player experience that he found challenging and enjoyable; deconstruct those too :)GNOME
I think we all remember our first time with a little dismay, we just need to make sure we grow from that point :)
Thanks, that is a really good idea about the best encounters from his experience.
On the other hand it will backfire as it will give you a bunch of skills and a bunch of skills as class skills +3 that you can use at any time an put points into at any time to get those +3's anytime :) you suddenly become a skill monkey :) at a slow progression, but a skill monkey none the less ;) Yes I have escape artist, you gave it to me, yes I have knowledge local, you gave it to me, yes I have ... as a class skill you gave it to me ;)
That is a good way to look at it. Only problem is that I already have the same number of skills as a bard and am stretched thin as it is... Should be a boon to our fighter though;)
How many other people in the party have a charisma of 8? This kind of thing really annoys me. Albeit that it can make for an interesting RP experience sometimes player RP themselves or what they view instead of the charisma 8. Dont wana start an argument i'm just saying that the party may be perceived as OP because of optimizing? Is the DM an anti optimizer?
In answer to your question I believe the only other person in our group with low cha is the fighter, the rest are all higher.
For the most part our group isn't heavily invested in RP. We probably spend about half our time talking out of character but for my part I do my best present my inquisitor properly, he has a mildly off putting sense of humor, is loud and generally somewhat apathetic to things that don't affect him directly or go against his religious views and tends to get preachy and smug if he doesn't agree with something;)
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As it stands right now, I would say that our encounters over the past few weeks have actually been rather good as far as providing a proper challenge and being a lot of fun to play. The problem however is that this is the result of him raising the CR of each fight by 2-4 or so (last encounter being against a lvl 10 pre-buffed Druid and her companion plus a couple dominated animals), in fairness this is generally an ok option for the time being, as he learns how to make the most of his enemies. The problem arises because he wants to keep the monsters he had originally planned on and isn't wanting to keep adding multiple templates and or levels to them. He is merely rankling at the CR's we are successfully handling because he doesn't feel it's right.Some thoughts and questions.
Are the players having fun, or is everyone on board with the idea that the encounters are not challenging and that this is a problem?
Are the encounters panning out in ways that the GM did not anticipate? If so, does he regard this as a problem or an opportunity?
I don't know if your success in combat is 'right' or 'wrong', that seems a bit odd to me.
However, the advantage of homebrew is that it's easier to adapt and make changes on the fly than it is with a published adventure.
I would suggest that the real problem here may be that the GM has a 'script' in his head for the adventure, with all of the villains and whatnot planned out.
What he should be doing is changing his script to suit his players, that's part of the GMs job. Perhaps he didn't realise before that GMs have to do that but they do, regularly, and if he wants to improve as a GM then it's something he has to learn to handle.
Over the years there have been a lot of threads on these messageboards which were posted by GMs who can't handle the players because they are messing up my beautiful plans (or even Paizo's beautiful plans, a lot of characters go 'off-piste' on APs). In most cases the best advice has been, to paraphrase the military:
No campaign plan survives contact with the PCs
He should not change your characters, he should adapt his campaign. That's how it goes and it's a challenge that all GMs face.
Talk to your party. If they think it is idiotic, talk to the DM. If he refuses to capitulate, tell him if he pulls this final piece of BS, you (and whoever else agrees) walk.
The bard player in the group I DM for would love this solution! I'm pretty sure the other 5 players would drag me outside and take turns thumping me behind the ears until I relented, though.
That's a very bizarre decision by your DM, I must say. Far better to sit down and have a chat with the players and lay out the challenges and frustrations on the table and come to a group decision. Maybe it's 15 point buy? Maybe it's less treasure? I hope you all can work it out. /salute!
Talk to your party. If they think it is idiotic, talk to the DM. If he refuses to capitulate, tell him if he pulls this final piece of BS, you (and whoever else agrees) walk.Ultimatums always work =D
DO IT!
I didn't say give an ultimatum, I just said walk if he continues to keep sailing the SS Stupid Decision.
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I didn't say give an ultimatum, I just said walk if he continues to keep sailing the SS Stupid Decision.Talk to your party. If they think it is idiotic, talk to the DM. If he refuses to capitulate, tell him if he pulls this final piece of BS, you (and whoever else agrees) walk.Ultimatums always work =D
DO IT!
Sorry I didn't mean to offend you I was just agreed with you, honestly.
But yeah jump overboard if he doesn't change courses.
Ask if you can take a level in expert instead. At least you'll get more skill points and choose what skills you have as class skills.
True but it is only preferable due to my inability to actually get any use out of half the class abilities. i.e. Cast any spells!
True but it is only preferable due to my inability to actually get any use out of half the class abilities. i.e. Cast any spells!
*nodnod* Total agreement here. I really cannot fathom this DM's reasoning. IF you are "transformed" from learning music, just give you some inherent abilities. Kinda like slapping a template on ya. Even requiring you to put a point in performance x I could sorta buy into. But foisting Bard class upon you for a level. That is silly.
Maybe he should make the .....nevermind.
Yep. Its time to ask the question. Is this the deal breaker? IF so, leave. If not, stay and wait for the next straw and repeat the question. I'm thinking you are gonna get lots of straws on yer back from this DM. *shrugs*