I feel like these Arcana all need to have wording such that the Magus needs to be able to cast the Spell Level the modified spell would be IF it`s spell were modified like normal. Otherwise, it just seems like the Magus is being pushed too far into Full Caster territory. I mean, sure the newest latest greatest Bouncing/Persistent Metamagic isn´t included (CURRENTLY) but I still fill that limitation is needed. It would still be essentially free upgrading of low level slots to higher level slots (and not subject to needing a Metamagic Rod in hand).
(Pool Spell has this limitation, I don´t see why these Arcana shouldn´t)
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Good point about hitting the full-caster equivalent. A Maximized level 6 spell is a level 9 equivalent, and a Quickened one is a level 10 equivalent. There also doesn't seem to be any wording stopping the Magus slapping all this 'sudden metamagic' Arcana on a spell at the same time, for some truly horrendous spell-level equivalents. So, a Silent, Still, Empowered, Quickened, Maximized level 6 spell? That's a level 17 spell equivalent! Sure, once per day, but your 'nova' spell has just been cast with no-one knowing you did it (you took Eschew Materials, right?), taking no time, and is at Max + a half power! For 3 points from your Arcane Pool this can be any level 6 spell in your book too...
Director of Games
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Even assuming that all of these get put on to one 6th level spell, I am not sure the power here is so outrageous as to force me to add additional limitations. I could be persuaded otherwise, but for now, I think I am ok leaving these as written.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I personally would remove the once per day limitation and have you expend spell pool points equal to the level of the increase.
Have you read the pool spell class feature?
Even assuming that all of these get put on to one 6th level spell, I am not sure the power here is so outrageous as to force me to add additional limitations. I could be persuaded otherwise, but for now, I think I am ok leaving these as written.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I'm going to have to agree here. The power here at once per day for an arcana is certainly not high enough to put more limitations. So you can stack a 6th level spell once per day at level 16 if you dedicate most of your arcana to doing so, and then you're dry for the rest of the day. I feel like compared to some of the things the apg classes can do, this doesn't seem too bad. In my personal opinion, it felt like there was a little bit of fear of power with the original magus design. With this revision, a lot of that is gone, but I think some of it is still there. The magus has a pretty cool bag of tricks, but I still feel that it falls short in overall power level.
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I personally would remove the once per day limitation and have you expend spell pool points equal to the level of the increase.Have you read the pool spell class feature?
Yeah as written now I could use the pool spell to cast shocking grasp as a standard action by spending 1 point, or a qickened shocking grasp by spending 5 points. To do the second the charecter would need the quicken spell feat.
With the current arcana I can quicken 1 spell once per day.
With my suggestion you could practically quicken at most 5 spells in a day. The increase in power would be for the 1 or 2 level arcana I think this change would make them more attractive.
If you don't feel that casting a 6th level spell once per day is a big deal why not open it up by using points.
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... So you can stack a 6th level spell once per day at level 16 if you dedicate most of your arcana to doing so, and then you're dry for the rest of the day...
I'm not sure that 'dry' is the right term here. At most you've used one 6th level spell slot, or 3 points from your Arcane Pool. At level 16 you've (at minimum) 11 pool points (if you go with minimum Int to cast a 6th level spell), so after your big 'stealth nuke' (love the term!) you still have all your spells and 8 pool points left to play with... hardly 'dry'.
As for 'blowing' all your 1 per day Arcana at once... there's sort of a false logic in play there. These are locked-in features that can't do anything else. Either you use them to do what they do in that day, or you don't - you save no resources from not using them, can't use them for anything else, and gain nothing from spreading their uses out over the course of the day (since they're all different metamagic 'buffs' to your spell). In fact, blowing them all at once (from a purely mechanical point of view, of course) is by far the most efficient use of the things.
So a Magus build who does take two or three (or more) of the higher powered 'sudden metamagic' Arcana isn't going to be using this tactic once in a while, but once every day. With the Spell Pool he can do so with amazing flexibility too. True, the 'bad boys' Maximize and his little brother Empower only really come into their own with damage dealing spells... but that's what the Magus has, isn't it?
So, our level 16 Magus can cast a Silent, Still, Empowered, Quickened, Maximized Chain Lightning spell, doing 8d6+96 (average 124) damage to 17 targets, taking him no time, requiring no preparation, and with him tied to a chair and gagged...
The closest a 16th level Wizard or Sorcerer could get with the same spell would be an Empowered version (as a level 8 spell) doing 24d6 (average 84) to 17 targets, and requiring either prior preparation and a standard action, or a full round casting time (with words and gestures, of course). Of course they could, instead, pull out a Polar Ray doing 16d6 to a single target, or a Shout, Greater doing 10d6 to a cone... In any case they use a level 8 spell slot, Vs the Magus's 3 pool points (basically a level 3 spell's worth of resources, in many ways) or a level 6 spell slot.
Sure it's a once-per-day 'stealth nuke', but it'll be a once every day stealth nuke, if the character was built with those Arcana. With the Still and Silent metamagic you could even call it a once-per-day 'unstoppable stealth nuke', as there's no easy way to stop the Magus doing this (tie him up, gag him, take away his spellbook... nope, he can still pull it off).
That's just one example, and an admittedly high level one (to emphasize the effect), but how does a DM plan adventures for a Magus toting this thing around? He could 'detonate' at any time he wants, obliterating whatever encounter he's in... ;p
In essence the spell level 'cap' on metamagic is there for a reason, lifting it is a little like opening a can of worms. While allowing the Magus to metamagic effects up to a similar level to the 'pure' casters would be fine, IMHO, allowing a level 16 Magus to cast a level 17 spell when his pure caster buddies are casting, at most, level 8 spells is a bit much, even if it is only once per day.
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Director of Games
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It should be noted that with the exception of Empower and Maximize, you are not really boosting the power of the spell all that much. Silent and Still certainly don't, and Quicken just lets you work around the action economy. I think its good, but I think investing a large chunk of your limited class features for a once a day Empower and Maximize spell is not quite as overpowered as it seems.
Thoughts...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I can see where ProfPotts is coming from, but I think the example put forth is along the same lines as when a party first gets access to fly, or dimensional door, or the ability to turn ethreal. I think it's something that the DM is going to have to take note of, and keep in the back of his mind when designing encounters.
Also, when playing from lower levels to high level, as opposed to starting off at a high level, I think this problem would be less still...as you watch your player's develope their characters, and witness those players develope newer and better tactics.
Yeah, if I started off a 16th level campaign, and someone pulled this out I would feel a little overwhelmed. Especially if I'd writen the adventure to have a lot of moments where the big bad guy is going to brag and cary on while the party is tied up. And it's convoluted enough I probably wouldn't catch it when I went over everyones character sheet before we started. I would however figure out this is what my player was going for if we got to 16th from lower levels, and would then throw in a few scenarios where he could make use of this tactic, giving him some spotlight time, without letting it shatter my game.
I think not having the cap will change the way we need to design encounters a little, but honestly it's the only way I'm willing to accept the once per day limit on those magus arcana. Before reading this post I'd just writen them off as something I would never choose as a player, and rarely choose as a DM designing an NPC. Now I will at least consider them.
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I'm not sure I actually disagree with any of that, to be honest, but I do wonder what the reaction would be if the 16th level Magus in question was an NPC bad-guy, rather than a PC... could be a classic 'master villain' move... or a TPK with cries of 'foul!' from the players...
From a Magus build point of view, taking the Empowered Magic Arcana at level 6 looks to be a particularly good deal, letting your once-per-day 'sudden empowered' spell keep pace, level-equivalent-wise, with the full-casters, at least for a while.
The idea that certain metamagic doesn't really boost the power of a spell (or, maybe, doesn't boost it as much as the spell level costs indicate when stacked with other metamagic) is an interesting one, and prompts the question of whether there are any planned changes to the existing metamagic rules in the new book? But I guess that's a subject for a different thread... ;)
So you can stack a 6th level spell once per day at level 16 if you dedicate most of your arcana to doing so, and then you're dry for the rest of the day.
What I meant by dry was that once you're done, you can't do any of those arcanas again until the next day. After that one use, you've got the other tricks a magus has and 6th level spells from a limited spell list. In my opinion, once per day is a huge limitation. A lot happens in a day depending on the campaign/adventure. It's certainly unrealistic to ask your party to rest for 2-8 hours every time you cast your big "stealth nuke." Also, it's important to note that you're talking about a damage comparison to a wizard. Now sure, you can (once per day) nuke harder than a wizard who gets 8 levels of spell casting, but then what about the rest of the day? More importantly, what about everything else 8th level spells bring to the table? Stuff like Mass Charm Monster, Power Word Stun or Irresistible dance. Save or lose stuff. The magus simply doesn't get that luxury. Due to the nature of the different spell lists, getting to sudden metamagic your stuff once per day doesn't let you "keep pace" with other spell casters at all. If you're playing an adventure in which your DM sets you up with the "lots of minions and then big bad boss then the day is over" model, then sure, this would be amazing.
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I think this is how Metamagic feats ought to work in the first place. They are way underpowered, and comparing a class feature to a bunch of underpowered feats is probably not a good comparison.
Now if the magus could apply these to 9th-level spells, THAT would be overpowered. A quickened, maximized, empowered Time Stop. Yeah.
I think this is how Metamagic feats ought to work in the first place.
Great, I agree they have issues there, but I don´t think putting our desires for how MM should work in general into how ONE Class can use MM effects via Class Features is the best approach. Personally, I usually go with the house-rule that any Metamagic which modifies spell effects (maximize, empower, bouncing) automatically gains the benefit of Heighten up to the effective Spell Level (and Heighten is a Free Feat for any caster). MM which modifies casting requirements (still, silent, quicken) doesn´t receive this effect, and ´free MM´ from Rods or other sources also doesn´t apply this (it`s only when you actually use a higher level spell slot). Anyways...
I see Jason´s first post here saying ´even if all these are put onto one 6th level spell´ as if doubting it will happen.
I´m with Prof. Potts here: NPC balance needs to be taken into account as well. When you´re facing a PC party whose action economy advantage means your chances of living are very low, there is no reason to NOT blow out many daily abilities at once. And even for PCs, in a party with many buffs available (e.g. Bard, Cleric/Oracle, Pearls of Power for Magus and others), the Magus is much less dependent on always using the Pool, and will be well aware they CAN afford to blow half their load to get 17th Spell Level Equivalents (and certainly competitive with 8th or 9th level spells if not in scope, in power).
So if how it`s expected to be used ISN´T combining them together, but using each of them separately 1/x day, what is the problem in actually saying they can´t be used together? (note: I see no problem with Still/Silent combining with others) Or at least they can´t be used together UNLESS YOU COULD CAST THE EFFECTIVE SPELL LEVEL. That seems the base-line reasonable treatment of this, to me...
I also think it`s important to treat the effective Spell Level seriously, saying these Metamagics ´aren´t the actual equivalent of higher level spells´ just runs counter to exactly how Metamagic is built, where you normally DO in fact the exact same slots as higher level spells. I think I´ve said enough on this topic, but to make an analogy with 3.5, I feel that too much free Metamagic, or Metamagic bypassing actual spell slots (not to mention spell level limits) is treading very close to the territory where 3.5 went with alternate usages for Turning. Of course, many of those were very cool and useful, but the net effect on game balance was not good in my opinion. People would pick up those abilities because they shifted ´resources´ which they never used (Turns) into seriously powerful effects which weren´t easily available otherwise. I just don´t see why the Magus needs to be able to out-do Wizards at their game within the very core of the Magus class abilities.
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Likewise, I`m dubious of the Spontaneous Casting aspect (Pool Spell) - I`d be fine with a Spontaneous/Sorceror-based Magus, but if that`s not to be the case, I don´t see why there should be a fairly strong bypass of SPell Preparation in this way, much better than what any Wizard can get. I have no problem if the Magus could have access to a BOnded Item instead of a Familiar, and use that for the 1/x day ´any spell from spellbook´ (I`ve suggested this as an option via Magic School Specialization). That allows for complete emergency flexibility. Multiple usages just don´t seem like emergencies anymore...
I think Paizo would like to reserve the ´niche´ for an actual Spontaneous Magic Fighter class, more based on Sorceror, but the strength of Spontaneous Pool Casting just seems to make that distinction very thin at higher levels. Certainly when I consider the Magus having this Pool Casting AND being able to Pearls of Power which Spontaneous Caster´s can´t use. I don´t see why blending fighting and wizard casting isn´t enough... Why does it also need to blend in spontaneous casting, not to mention off-list spell casting?
I personally would remove the once per day limitation and have you expend spell pool points equal to the level of the increase.Have you read the pool spell class feature?Yeah as written now I could use the pool spell to cast shocking grasp as a standard action by spending 1 point, or a qickened shocking grasp by spending 5 points. To do the second the charecter would need the quicken spell feat.
With the current arcana I can quicken 1 spell once per day.
With my suggestion you could practically quicken at most 5 spells in a day. The increase in power would be for the 1 or 2 level arcana I think this change would make them more attractive.
If you don't feel that casting a 6th level spell once per day is a big deal why not open it up by using points.
Touche. And I agree. 5 points for a quickened shocking grasp without having to take the feat? Keeping points at half caster level + int mod? Maybe.
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So which spell is this that the Magus has, that is going to wreck everyone's day once all this is added? Even an NPC magus is going to have a hard time being truly mean at that level.
The worst thing I can think of is if the magus piles all of it onto an enervation, then casts some SoD with his regular action. And he needs spell blending in the first place to even get that. And that's just 6 negative levels with a touch attack, far from instant death for 15th+ level characters. Granted, following that up with a Cloudkill would be pretty mean, but I don't think it would be instant death for the whole party.
You only get the quicken ability for characters at or above 15th-level. It's not worse than spell perfection, really.
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So which spell is this that the Magus has, that is going to wreck everyone's day once all this is added?
Let's see...
A level 16 Magus is a CR 15 encounter - an 'average' encounter for a group of 4 level 15 PCs.
So, for Hit Points you have:
Cleric 8 (max level 1) + 63 (average next 14 levels) + 15 (favoured class) = 86
Fighter 10 (max level 1) + 77 (average next 14 levels) + 15 (favoured class) = 102
Rogue 8 (max level 1) + 63 (average next 14 levels) + 15 (favoured class) = 86
Wizard 6 (max first level) + 49 (average next 14 levels) + 15 (favoured class) = 70
The Fighter and Cleric are bound to have at least 30 or more extra (for Con bonuses), and maybe someone took Toughness, but for argument's sake let's say this base is what they're on after fighting their way through to the evil Magus in his lair.
Assuming the Magus gets a turn at all, he cast an Empowered, Quickened and Maximized Chain Lightning spell, doing 8d6+96 (average 124) damage to all of them. They all make their saves, so that halves to 62 damage. But that was just his Swift action, so he casts a regular Chain Lightning to follow up, doing 16d6 (average 56 damage). They all make their saves again, so that halves to 28 damage, for a total of 90 damage each.
So...
The Cleric is -4 and out.
The Fighter is on 12 Hit Points.
The Rogue has Evasion, so managed to take no damage!
The Wizard is on -20 and is dead.
The Magus still hasn't taken his Move action yet...
That's assuming everyone saves every time, and assuming average damage. Obviously a fresh party would fair better, as would a party pre-buffed to meet the guy, but that's not really the point: the Magus did this without any need to be prepared to do so, and has used a fraction of his resources for the day... is this really an 'average' encounter? It's not a convoluted situation either - there's no reason the Magus wouldn't do this... it'd be stretching believability for him to hold back from doing this, rather than the other way round.
Do you think the party's day's ruined yet? ;)
ProfPotts,
Awesome example and a good reason why the magus should only be allowed one arcana per round.
Doug
ProfPotts,
Awesome example and a good reason why the magus should only be allowed one arcana per round.
Doug
Is it just me, or is everyone missing the part where wizards can do the same, but worse, all the time rather than Once Per Day? Damage is damage, sure, but it's once per day, and that's it. Then the magus over all is alright at best after that one explosion per day. More importantly, the magus has to dedicate most if not all of his arcana just to do this once per day. Again, maybe it's just me, but I feel like adventures where being able to blow something up once per day is overpowered isn't a good adventure. Wizards with 7th and 8th level spells do more work. Never mind the damage, save or lose is much more dangerous.
Is it just me, or is everyone missing the part where wizards can do the same, but worse, all the time rather than Once Per Day?
Explain to me how a wizard can apply the Silent, Still, Empowered, Maximized, and Quickened metamagic feats to a single spell.
Silent = +1
Still = +1
Empower = +2
Maximize = +3
Quickened = +4
So that'd take a slot 11 levels higher than the base spell.
Not that the Magus can't have some tricks the Wizard doesn't, but the Wizard in fact does not have that trick.
(Edited to add: I think something along the lines of "The Magus can't cast a spell this way which would have an effective spell level over double the highest spell level they can cast" would be a pretty reasonable restriction and preserve a cool Magus trick. This is off the cuff, though -- I'll need to reread the writeup and see how I feel about that.)
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Is it just me, or is everyone missing the part where wizards can do the same, but worse, all the time rather than Once Per Day?
As far as I'm aware, Wizards are limited by the level cap of the spells they can cast when applying metamagic. Empower + Maximze + Quicken metamagic is a +9 level increase. So, a level 16 Wizard, who only has access to level 8 spells, couldn't even stack those three on a cantrip.
But it's an interesting comparsion, and I'd like to see an example, with the same set-up, just replacing the level 16 Magus with a level 16... any other class... which does the same to a party in the first half-round of combat. A Wizard, for example, could pull off a Quickened level 4 spell (for a level 8 spell slot) and a level 8 spell as well in that time, but I'm not sure how that compares to the Magus's combo' in my example above. Remember to take into account that, in my example, everything actually goes the PC party's way - they all make both their saves - and apply the same criteria to the Wizard's spells. Also note that the Magus uses no hinky magic items, and nothing that would even be unusual for the class - he's just taken three of his five Arcana he has by that point in stackable 'sudden metamagic'. He also hasn't even prepared the spells he uses, since he can pull the same trick off with six points from his Arcane Pool - he'll have 11 minimum at that point, so he's still got 5 left, and boosting his weapon only takes the one, assuming that's what he does next. By 'his weapon' you could mean anything he happens to grab (Magic Weapon, Greater + Arcane Pool - he's good to go using that loofah as a +5 flaming, frost, shock improvised club) - the party could catch the guy coming out of his bath and he'll still wipe the floor with them, as long as they let him have even a single action. Maybe they win in the end (let's hope - they are the good guys!), but that's not the point of the example - the point is, essentially, that the ability to inflict an average of 90 points of damage to the entire party, if they make all their saves, in half a round of combat, is a little on the high side for an 'average' encounter.
Just to add my 2 cents:
As written the metamagic arcanas aren´t all that awesome for pcs - not a fan of 1/day. The fact that you can combine it with metamagic rods could lead to damage spikes for NPCS.
To adress this I would suggest the following changes - they might end up as my houserules anyway:
Balance is based on the possible existance of a feat that gives 2 more points (like the monk version).
Change the feats like this:
Empowered Magic (Su):
Increase you arcane pool by 1.
A magus with this magus arcana can expend 2 a points from his arcane pool as a swift action can cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Empower Spell feat.
This does not increase the casting
time or the level of the spell. The magus must be at least
6th level before selecting this magus arcana.
Quickened Magic (Su):
Increase you arcane pool by 1.
A magus with this magus arcana can expend 4 points from his arcane pool as a swift action to cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Quicken Spell feat. This does not increase the level of the spell. The magus must be at least 15th level before selecting this magus arcana.
Maximized Magic (Su):
Increase you arcane pool by 1.
A magus with this magus arcana can expend 3 points from his arcane pool as a swift action to cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the
Maximize Spell feat. This does not increase the casting
time or the level of the spell. The magus must be at least
12th level before selecting this magus arcana.
Silent Magic (Su):
Increase you arcane pool by 1.
A magus with this magus arcana can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Spell feat. This does not increase the casting time or the level of the spell.
Still Magic (Su):
Increase you arcane pool by 1.
A magus with this magus arcana can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to cast one spell per day as if it were modified by the Still Spell feat. This does not increase the casting time or the
level of the spell.
Same for the other arcanas, poinz cost based on the spell level increase, slight change of wording for the qicken spell arcana.
This way people would consider taking the silent and still arcanas, the Quickend Magic arcana actually becomes a bit worse.
And btw this version prevents the stacking of maximize, empower and other metamagic arcanas.
Well I said my bit, have fun.
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The easiest 'fix' would be to follow the example of the Spell Perfection Feat from the APG and limit stacking to a spell level equivalent of 9 at most. That way our level 16 Magus can cast a Maximized Chain Lightning (still nasty), but not a Quickened one, and not Empowered at the same time either.
I see that people don't like once per day stuff for player characters, and I mostly agree - but in this case making these Arcana draw off the same Arcane Pool all the Magus's other effects draw off could actually make these particular Arcana less attractive options than they are now.
On the other hand, with your suggestions, Banpai, the added Pool Point per Arcana chosen is a nice touch, and keeping the point cost equal to the spell level increase of that metamagic keeps everything nicely balanced. If the Magus could take these Arcana and exceed his usual spell level, but only up to a spell level 9 equivalent at most (barring Epic level, but that's a whole new ballgame anyway), then those would be very strong Arcana choices indeed... too strong maybe? I don't know, but I'd like them more as a player (multiple uses a day), and more as a DM (the buck stops at spell level 9).
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Spell Perfection doesn't limit you from stacking an additional metamagic feat onto the spell.
You can make a Maximized Empowered Chain Lightning using spell perfection and prep it as an 8th level spell. then stack on 2 spell focus and 2 elemental focus to push its dc up by +8. What you can't do is make a quickened Chain lightning with spell perfection.
Explain to me how a wizard can apply the Silent, Still, Empowered, Maximized, and Quickened metamagic feats to a single spell.
You seem to be missing the point. I'm not arguing that a wizard can stack all of those metamagic feats onto a spell; wizards can't do that. I'm talking about the POWER LEVEL of getting to do that once per day. I keep seeing comparisons to the actual metamagic allocation that a wizard would get that aren't warranted. Hold Person Mass. First round of combat, metamagic or not, it's save or lose. Charm monster, mass, same thing. I mean you can compare the fact that you're adding metamagic feats to damage spells all you want to buff them so you do a mass nuke in the first round of combat. Given DR and ER, I'd still go with the save or lose paralysis on every target within my range. Furthermore, and this is the more important point, after that first round of combat(if that's the comparison you're wanting to use), the magus can't do that kind of damage again. You know who can try again for another hold person, mass in the next round? The wizard. And the round after that if they really wanted to. Or even later in the day when the party comes upon yet another group of fairly difficult creatures that they must fight off. Getting hung up on the actual metamagic is irrelevant. The entire point of the discussion is how powerful it is, not the metamagic cap. It takes the magus all of those metamagic feats simultaneously (at a once per day limit) to do that much damage at once, where the wizard without any of those feats is creating a save or lose situation that he can do several times per day. Comparatively, I just don't think it's as powerful as you want to make it.
I'm on board with the solution that has been suggested in this thread repeatedly already. First, turn the metamagic arcanas into arcanas that depend on the points. You don't have to have the feats if you get those arcana, but you spend a number of points equal to the level increase if you want to use it. So the Empowered Magic arcana would cost you one point, quickened would cost you 4. You wouldn't be required to use a feat slot. Second, I think the magus' pool needs to be just a little larger, which is something that has been discussed in other threads. This way, you have versatility and balance. I also still think that the arcana should follow the rogue talent/rage power model and be at every even level.
The easiest 'fix' would be to follow the example of the Spell Perfection Feat from the APG and limit stacking to a spell level equivalent of 9 at most. That way our level 16 Magus can cast a Maximized Chain Lightning (still nasty), but not a Quickened one, and not Empowered at the same time either.
I see that people don't like once per day stuff for player characters, and I mostly agree - but in this case making these Arcana draw off the same Arcane Pool all the Magus's other effects draw off could actually make these particular Arcana less attractive options than they are now.
On the other hand, with your suggestions, Banpai, the added Pool Point per Arcana chosen is a nice touch, and keeping the point cost equal to the spell level increase of that metamagic keeps everything nicely balanced. If the Magus could take these Arcana and exceed his usual spell level, but only up to a spell level 9 equivalent at most (barring Epic level, but that's a whole new ballgame anyway), then those would be very strong Arcana choices indeed... too strong maybe? I don't know, but I'd like them more as a player (multiple uses a day), and more as a DM (the buck stops at spell level 9).
Thanks.
As intended, the only arcana that could break the level 9 barrier is the one that works like a metamagic rod of quicken spell.
Since using them uses up swift actions, you can only use one and you cant´t use other nice swift actions. This makes the quicken spell option a bit worse, empower and maximize not really better or worse, and still and silent just better. Beeing able to cast without somatic or verbal components once in a while is a nice ability to have, but I wouldn´t spend an arcana slot on that.
Spell Perfection is a really nice feat especially for the magus. It allows to use a second level spell slot and a swift action for a scorcing ray and a free attack every round before you use spell combat for the next spell and attack.
This is soo much fun ^^.
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Spell Perfection doesn't limit you from stacking an additional metamagic feat onto the spell.
You can make a Maximized Empowered Chain Lightning using spell perfection and prep it as an 8th level spell. then stack on 2 spell focus and 2 elemental focus to push its dc up by +8. What you can't do is make a quickened Chain lightning with spell perfection.
Spell Perfection has a specific 9th spell level equivalent cap. So, yes, you can use Spell Perfection to exceed your own highest spell slot, but no, you can't exceed a 9th level equivalent... unless there's some clarification of the Feat I'm missing somewhere?
So, you can cast a Maximized Chain Lightning spell, with Spell Perfection, using a 6th level slot, but you can't stack any more metamagic onto it, because that would exceed the 9th level cap. If you cast an Empowered Chain Lightning spell instead, you could tack on, say, a Silent metamagic upgrade and cast it as a 7th level spell, 'cos you can add normal metamagic to the spell, as long as it doesn't exceed the 9th level cap.
The Magus Arcana don't have any such level cap - which is the point I'm making, really.
To a certain extent I agree with Kibeth, and others, that a 'nova' spell from a Magus once per day isn't totally insane when that Magus is a player character, because it can be tough for a player to judge when the best use of such a 'nuke' is going to be. On the other hand, it guarantees at least one encounter per adventure can be basically skipped, thanks to the Magus-nuke, and the Magus as bad-guy example above, I hope, speaks for itself. Also, it's not a tough one to fix - apply the normal spell level equivalent cap, and maybe boost the Arcana by making it more usable, as others have suggested.
By no means am I suggesting taking away the Magus's toys, rather I'm hoping we can make sure he plays with them responsibly... ;)
You seem to be missing the point. I'm not arguing that a wizard can stack all of those metamagic feats onto a spell; wizards can't do that. I'm talking about the POWER LEVEL of getting to do that once per day.
I don't think you can really blame anyone for missing a point you neglected to make the first time around. But, okay, we're on the same page now.
I'll say this:
1) As written, it's really powerful in the case in which you have only one or two encounters in a day. I know, you'll say, "Well, don't do that, then." But we're working in a context in which some APs, for example, already do this in parts.
And maybe it's fine that the Magus gets to blow those kinds of things out of the water, but I didn't think this was a great idea in 3.X when it was the Sudden Metamagic feats and I'm not a *much* bigger fan of this twist on it, although it is better as something only this class has vs. a feat anyone can take.
2) Look at the example someone else provided of throwing everything on a Chain Lightning. You don't think being able to throw ~124 points of damage to a group even while bound and gagged is at least situationally powerful?
And, yeah, for PCs at those levels the monster HP will have already outstripped that, but it'd be nice for the Magus to balance well as a villain too. Maybe in the full analysis it still does. It's something to think about.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The 'problem' with your NPC example, ProffPotts (Say hullo to Truly Scrumptious for me!) is the same as was often given for psionic badguys. It's metagaming to 'alpha strike'. "Wow, I'm a bad guy and these are the Heroes(tm) I just need to survive this battle and I can coast for the rest of the day!"
As an example of what I mean, let's look at this from another POV.
Hero: Surrender evil Magus!
Big Bad Evil Magus: Never! *casts empowered quickened Maximised Disintigrate, followed by cone of cold* Take that hero.
Hero: *Steps out from where he was hiding as he lets the illusion lapse* No thanks. I've had enough already.
The BBEM is now 'dry' on his metamagic tricks *and* his 6th level spell, *and* a 5th level spell.
just as GMs shouldn't let psion BBEGs 'Nova' right off the bat, neither should BBEMs. (Now when he's in trouble, a 'I'm taking you with me' school of thought makes more sense.)
Sure, once per day, but your 'nova' spell has just been cast with no-one knowing you did it (you took Eschew Materials, right?),
Just a quick note: It has been stated, IIRC by either Buhlman or Jacobs, that you can't hide spellcasting that way. Even if a spell completely lacks components, anyone in the vicinity knows you cast the spell. From what I've understood, it's impossible to hide spellcasting except for that APG bard archetype.
It's a ruling that I disagree with, just wanted to note that that's the rules.
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... A wizard with spell perfection can with that same chain lightning everybody is mentioning and a rod of persistent spell force BBEG or a group of them to a double save or lose sticking a dazing metamagic to the very 6th level spell we're talking about. I'd take 6 rounds of daze over 124 damage anytime.
A Wizard with Spell Perfection can't cast a Quickened Chain Lightning let alone a Quickened + Maximized + Empowered one. But that's hardly the point anyway - a Magus can stack all the same nifty Feats and magic items the Wizard can onto the spell, only he gets his Arcana stacked on top as well.
But, as mentioned, my example was for a naked, unprepared, Magus getting out of his bath, and being generous on the party saves. If the cleric or fighter failed one of those two saves they're dead, if the rogue failed the save Vs the maximized spell, he's dead too. There's no reason this Magus can't have Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Elemental Focus and Greater Elemental Focus to add to the save DC, and a reasonable-for-level Int of 20. That makes the save DC 25 (DC 23 secondary blasts). Assuming that the three 'poor Reflex save' characters have +10 bonuses to their saves, then chances are high they're going to fail one of the two saves. That takes us to three dead party members, on average. Assuming the rogue has a +15 reflex save, chances are even he'll fail one of the two saves - so the best average result is actually more like three party members dead, and the rogue with a 50% chance or being dead outright, or just down 28 hit points. That's without using a metaagic rod too.
Bump our Magus one level, to level 17, and he gets a Feat he can spend on Spell Perfection - Chain Lightning. Now it gets really silly. DC 29 (DC 27 secondary blasts) to save, plus he can throw in that Persistant Spell metamagic Feat he's got as well on his 'alpha strike'. Chances are that's killed the entire party in one Swift Action. If it hasn't, he can then cast a 'basic' Maximized Chain Lightning as a follow-up, which definitly kills the party. 3 second TPK, and it's not even an unreasonable character build - the Feats are all ones useful throughout his career, there's no reason not to take and stack the Arcana. Oh, and he still hasn't thrown in a metamagic rod for kicks and giggles... Plus, if he casts his follow-up as Spell Combat, he's still due a full round of melee attacks as well...
... It's metagaming to 'alpha strike'...
I'd agree with you, if the guy could use those Arcana for anything else... but he can't. They don't take resources from anything else (e.g. Arcane Pool), and they don't even give him the option of 'three sudden metamagic per day, from a choice of Quicken, Maximize, and Enlarge'. All he can do is use each, once per day, to boost a spell with a specific metamagic. There's no reason - practical or imaginary, that he'd not 'alpha strike' with these things - it's essentially what they're designed to do, the way they are currently presented. I am, of course, assuming that a) he can recognise a group of high-level adventurers for what they are, and b) he wants to live. ;)
Sure, if someone fools the guy into blasting an illusion, or whatever, then he's down to everything else he can do anyway (so no huge loss on his part), and there are an infinite amount of circumstantial details you can add to the example to make it go one way or the other... but none of that changes the basic point: the ability to stack metamagic to take a spell's power level (way) above 9th is broken.
Just a quick note: It has been stated, IIRC by either Buhlman or Jacobs, that you can't hide spellcasting that way...
Weird, I always thought that was the payoff for metamagicing a spell to a 'no components' level. If all Still and Silent do is enable you to cast in the very few situations when you'd otherwise not be able to, then they're pretty pointless (especially for a Wizard - why would you ever prepare a spell like that? You're expecting to be bound and gagged at some point in the next day... that's your plan? Or maybe just a lifestyle choice... I try not to judge...). But that's a discussion for a different thread, I think.
I'm not really too fond of 1/day abilities unless it's pretty good. Some of these, well... I would never take them to be honest. How about make it so you can't go nova on these arcanas; only one can be used per spell (although those already modified with normal metamagic feats are fair game). But also increase the daily limit. Maximize and Quicken are still 1/day, Empower is 2/day and Silent and Still is 3/day.
Just throwing it out there.
I'm not really too fond of 1/day abilities unless it's pretty good. Some of these, well... I would never take them to be honest. How about make it so you can't go nova on these arcanas; only one can be used per spell (although those already modified with normal metamagic feats are fair game). But also increase the daily limit. Maximize and Quicken are still 1/day, Empower is 2/day and Silent and Still is 3/day.
Just throwing it out there.
I really like this solution. Was about to propose the 1 per spell myself. Really like getting more per day for the weaker ones, although I would do it per level. Maximize and quicken 1/day, Empower 1 at 6th and 1 at 15th, Silent/still 1 at 1st, 2 at 9th, 3 at 15
Edit: now that I think about it, I probaly would not have that limmitation on silent and still.
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The only problem with the 'one per spell' limit is that Quicken still breaks the 9th level cap by itself, used on a 6th level spell, and you can still add in Spell Perfection on top - so you can still cast a Quickened + Maximized Chain Lightning, followed by a Maximized Chain Lightning, followed by a full round of attacks if you're level 17. Same problem, just reduced a little (by removing the Empowered).
Whatever happens I feel the 9th level cap needs to stay on, or it needs to be explicit that the class is designed to breach the cap as a feature (and a powerful one at that).
The only problem with the 'one per spell' limit is that Quicken still breaks the 9th level cap by itself, used on a 6th level spell, and you can still add in Spell Perfection on top - so you can still cast a Quickened + Maximized Chain Lightning, followed by a Maximized Chain Lightning, followed by a full round of attacks if you're level 17. Same problem, just reduced a little (by removing the Empowered).
Whatever happens I feel the 9th level cap needs to stay on, or it needs to be explicit that the class is designed to breach the cap as a feature (and a powerful one at that).
And a normal wizard can do this with Rods, and gets 9th level spells outright. I don't really have an issue with this.
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Well, you can only ever use one Rod per spell, so any way you swing it, the Magus can still stack on an extra metamagic effect with these Arcana, even if you do have a 'one per spell' limit. So a Wizard can cast a 9th level spell + Greater Metamagic Rod effect, and a Magus can cast a 6th level spell + Spell Perfection (Maximize) to 9th level + Arcana (Quicken) + Metamagic Rod effect. Of course, if the Wizard wants to Quicken that 9th level spell he needs 170,000 gold pieces spare to buy his Rod...
I don't think you can really blame anyone for missing a point you neglected to make the first time around. But, okay, we're on the same page now.
Stuff like Mass Charm Monster, Power Word Stun or Irresistible dance. Save or lose stuff. The magus simply doesn't get that luxury. Due to the nature of the different spell lists, getting to sudden metamagic your stuff once per day doesn't let you "keep pace" with other spell casters at all.
Never mind the damage, save or lose is much more dangerous.
I did make that point. In fact, I made it on two separate occasions in varying degrees before I said "you're missing the point." That being said, yes, it is powerful situationally, but all around it's not overpowered. Have you ever played with a paladin in an undead heavy AP or Campaign? Placed in certain situations, classes tend to shine. It happens. Apparently, the magus can "shine" once per day, even if he's bound and gagged which is situationally amazing, but overall, it's alright. What happens if the magus gets captured again that day, or gets paralyzed/silenced later that day? He's SoL, but it happens. You can always metagame situations in which your heroes or your villains will shine. Anti paladins make amazing villains against a good party. Ridiculous damage output. Put them up against a neutral party, and they're no longer doing ridiculous damage. It's all about the situation. Overall, wizards, and other classes, are still more dangerous.
Well, you can only ever use one Rod per spell, so any way you swing it, the Magus can still stack on an extra metamagic effect with these Arcana, even if you do have a 'one per spell' limit. So a Wizard can cast a 9th level spell + Greater Metamagic Rod effect, and a Magus can cast a 6th level spell + Spell Perfection (Maximize) to 9th level + Arcana (Quicken) + Metamagic Rod effect. Of course, if the Wizard wants to Quicken that 9th level spell he needs 170,000 gold pieces spare to buy his Rod...
Craft Rod. Take a look at the magic item creation rules. You can create a rod with more than one effect on it. Just saying.
I'd agree with you, if the guy could use those Arcana for anything else... but he can't.
There are more attractive Arcanas. Another point, to do this big bound and gagged nuke, the magus has to spend 4/5 magus arcanas just to do it once per day. It's not worth it, unless you're playing the kind of 16th level AP that you end up doing two battles per day or something. But then again, I wouldn't play a paladin unless I'm fighting a lot of evil all the time. Alternatively I could just play an inquisitor and bane judge everything all the time.
...then he's down to everything else he can do anyway (so no huge loss on his part)
I'd argue that that's not that much. I feel like the magus has to hemorrhage his arcane points and other resources just to keep up with other classes at their average. Still feels a little weak, though I guess that's a discussion for another thread.