Well.. no.. and there won't ever be.
The entire *point* of the class is to have a very powerful minion and a mediocre "player" instead of a very powerful player and a mediocre minion.
If they nerf the Eidolon to the point of just being an animal companion it invalidates the entire class premise.
-S
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I understand that the summoner's casting doesn't compare with any of the other classes. However, the combination of the summoner and eidolon, especially at high levels, out power several of the other class. A good argument can be made that they are the most powerful combat class. I like the idea behind the class, I am just trying to find a way to keep the playing field balanced. What house rules, if any, have others imposed?
Having played one, I think you might be over-inflating the problems with the class. Especially with the nerf that the summoner can't have the eidolon and his spell-like summon monster out at the same time, it really goes a long way to evening out the power level.
Is the class potent, sure. That said, many classes can be overpoweringly potent if abused or when compared to under-optimized characters within the same group.
I did this, and it seems to have worked very well for balancing the Eidelon's power output...
A) The limit on attacks is hard. That is, it's not just a limit on natural attacks, it's a limit on the number of attacks that can be made per turn. So, an eidelon that can make 5 attacks per turn can make 3 weapon attacks and 2 natural attacks, or 4 natural attacks and one weapon, or any combination that adds up to 5. Rather than use different rules for those attacks, I stipulated that Weapons the Eidelon has familiarity with are treated as Primary natural attacks, and weapons it doesn't have familiarity with are treated as Secondary. So, if you want an eidelon that has four arms, a bite, two slams, two claws, and two swords, a tail, wings and a wing buffet, go for it. But, if his current level limits him to 5 attacks, he has to choose 5 of those attacks to use this turn.
B) Threw the stupid 'Eidelon goes away when you sleep/fall unconscious' rule out the window. Eidelon stays around as long as you are alive.
C) Rather than make the character and Eidelon share slots, I modified it so that the Eidelon only get's a magic item slot every other level (so maximum 10). The Summoner can specify what the slots are whenever he changes the form (so, at 6th level it could have two rings and an amulet, or a cape, a belt, and a headband). Magic items stay with the eidelon if it's dismissed or killed, so they go back to it's native plane.
That seems to have worked well, IMHO.
I haven't seen one in play to know the balance of it- but I'd be curious to see how these "multi weapon" guys stack up, with how much magic weapons cost. Rogues gripe enough as it is with two melee weapons needing to be valid in combat.. if you have 2-4-6 arms I can't imagine it being any better. Even more so if you combine it with natural attacks and either need time to buff alot before hand or an amulet of mighty fists. (in addition to the weapons).
That, combined with the relatively low AC (since they took armor off the table for them) and I'm just curious how it works out. They seem like very very expensive glass cannons with the summoner being a secondary huge weakness for them.
As I said though- I've not seen one in play.
-S
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I haven't seen one in play to know the balance of it- but I'd be curious to see how these "multi weapon" guys stack up, with how much magic weapons cost. Rogues gripe enough as it is with two melee weapons needing to be valid in combat.. if you have 2-4-6 arms I can't imagine it being any better. Even more so if you combine it with natural attacks and either need time to buff alot before hand or an amulet of mighty fists. (in addition to the weapons).
That, combined with the relatively low AC (since they took armor off the table for them) and I'm just curious how it works out. They seem like very very expensive glass cannons with the summoner being a secondary huge weakness for them.
As I said though- I've not seen one in play.
-S
The idea is to take Endurance and Diehard with the Eidolon and then build the Summoner as a battery for hit points. The Summoner is built with her best stat in Constitution, takes the Toughness feat, and stays invisible without doing anything threatening. This essentially allows the Summoner to be a health battery for the Eidolon (thanks to Diehard, the Eidolon won't ever go down unless the Summoner runs out of health first). This setup benefits greatly from a cleric, since the Eidolon can effectively be healed at double efficiency by Channel Positive Energy. The Eidolon won't really need to keep the weapons at a high enhancement bonus, so it shouldn't be too costly.
That said, I've banned the multiple arm weapon Eidolons in my game, so the best our resident min/maxer can do has been a Large Eidolon with as many 2d6 damage claws as allowed by the chart.
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from my experience the summoner needs a power increase not a decrease - yes the eidolon is more powerful than an animal companion but it needs to be when the caster is sooo weak compared to other pet class casters especially druids
I would never play a summoner anymore now with the current rules
pounce is not too powerful - it is limited to quadraped forms (I think this is wrong but...) & animal companions get this to with some forms albeit at a later level - I would possibly recommend maybe allowing it only after say lev 5?
I have a level one summoner in a weekly Kingmaker campaign, and I use pounce all the time. It isn't terribly powerful, but is sure handy to have. At level one the eidolon doesn't have an egregiously high attack bonus so I averaged about one hit per pounce.
You wanna see OP let someone gestalt a cleric and summoner...
You wanna see OP let someone gestalt a cleric and summoner...
Summoner and Oracle. It is less MAD.
You wanna see OP let someone gestalt a cleric and summoner...Summoner and Oracle. It is less MAD.
True.
When does the problems appear. Currently I'm playing an Inquisitor in group with a Summoner, Druid, Alchemist and Rogue/fighter. We are currently 7th level and the summoner seems about equal to all in the group.
When does the problems appear. Currently I'm playing an Inquisitor in group with a Summoner, Druid, Alchemist and Rogue/fighter. We are currently 7th level and the summoner seems about equal to all in the group.
Probably never then.
The issue isn't the summoner, honestly. Even under the playtest it wasn't. The issue is that if you min-max the system to the hilt, the class can be overpowered.
On the other hand, so can the druid, wizard, sorcerer, fighter, barbarian, paladin, etcetera etcetera etcetera.
The real issue is that someone out to game the system to the max when mixed into a group that's not doing so throws the whole thing out of balance.
That's not min maxing to the hilt, that's simply refusing to take blatantly obvious trap options
So, two of the three basic eidolon types are "trap options"? As are 15 of the 17 basic druid companion animal types?
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Don't look here; I prefer bipeds for higher strength and reach gains for size. The serpent option does sadden me quite a bit though. Of course, I have long believed pounce to be overrated... how often is there no difficult terrain and you have a clear line? Setting oneself to charge is nearly impossible.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Don't look here; I prefer bipeds for higher strength and reach gains for size. The serpent option does sadden me quite a bit though. Of course, I have long believed pounce to be overrated... how often is there no difficult terrain and you have a clear line? Setting oneself to charge is nearly impossible.
It is super easy at mid to high level with flight and reach.
Charge is one of those "things" that is highly dependant on your campaign and DM. In some games its incredibly easy and happens often and in others it isn't.. and doesn't.
As such, pounce is either awesome or not.
Some of you who have played them and used them- can you show your builds? I'd be interested in seeing the eidolon who was both better damage and less squishy than the fighter- or at least of equal squishiness. It seems that building the "uber damage dealer" takes up enough of your feats and evolutions that you can't be that and also tough enough to survive more than a fight or two.
-S
Stuff
You need to post builds to back up your claims. Zurai made "Fighterman" and "SummonerGirl" with same point buy and optimized them as much as i have seen anyone. With the comparison shows most people misguided view of the Eidolon. Im going to agree with Selgrad, James Maissen, and rest that Summoners as they stand now are no where close to being overpowered.
As to the OP, there is no reason to errata them in line with Druid animal companions. The summoner is FAR weaker than a Druid, but his pet is little stronger to help offset this.
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Big cat is the most overrated thing in existence; get a T-Rex, you'll never go back. Seriously, where is this world where pounce ever actually happens?
Nimble moves and acrobatic step and it happens much more often.
Also: Few summoners need the horseshoe slot -- so let the eidolion have it for Horseshoes of the Zypher. Less filling and tastes great! Finally having a fly speed does wonderful things for opening up charge lines.
Being mounted on the eidolon with pounce and a fly speed while you use ride by attack means that it gets a full attack, you get a spirited charge and you both get back out of melee -- it's a win/win/win situation.*
*Claims are extraordinary and do not represent normal customers. Some terms and limitations apply, see store for details. Past success is not a garuantee of future success each case is different and must be tried on its own merits. Results not typical. No actual warantee or garuantee is agreed to, implied or expilictedly stated. Voided in some states and where prohibited.
Zurai made "Fighterman"Which is not a melee character and thus does nothing to disprove my point.
This makes me laugh. Hard.
bad builds
That's a really sad fighter. I don't think you tried too hard on it.
You forgot to pay for your claws evolution too (actually you probablyu simply forgot that quads get bite not claws and put down the wrong one since you paid for bite when you don't need to).
Also what's your Saves, AC and HP on that eidolon? What's your summoner got (it's looking like nothing since you are incredibly over WBL -- the boots alone puts you 2,000 gp over)? One more potential problem, if the eidolon charges out past 100 feet (possible with this build) he's going to lose HP.
Finally, I *think* the gore and bite attack combination violates the different limbs rule of natural weapons, due to the fact they both use the head. No other creature has a gore and a bite that full attacks with both.
... but I don't play low int wizards, I don't play medium bear animal companion druids, I don't play serpentine eidolon summoners.
So under this quote by you, why would you compare the Eidolon to a Melee fighter? Why don't we compare the Summoner Eidolon to a low int wizard? or any of the other sub-par classes you suggest? In fact lets be fair and do the serpentine Eidolon since we are going to sub-par build the fighter.
A non limburger level 7 melee fighter build which outperforms mine, show me. I can guarantee you right now, if I level down fighterman to level 7 he won't touch the damage of the build I posted.
Why would I need to do work thats already done? Zurai did complete builds along with a scenario with a monster to compare. Level 20 is used because everyone gets things at different levels causing sweet spots.
Your builds are no where near complete. Are the characters hitting statues? Cause i see no listed AC for them. While I will admit the Eidolon can dish out dmg, being a glass cannon is worthless. If its dead it will deal no dmg. Way back before the APG came out (when the Summoner seemed fun to play) I messed around a little with builds and I never had a build that didn't spend some Evolution points on Defense. I think they problems DM's have with Summoners is that they don't know how to handle them in a game. They are in the Advanced Players Guide for a reason.
I think a pet shouldn't outdamage a damage oriented melee fighter ... bad for morale.
James Jacob commented that the whole point of playing the Summoner class is for the Eidolon. Think of the Eidolon as the PC and the summoner as the pet. Most people just use the summoner for buffing the Eidolon.
"a fighter build"
+1
Who said the serpentine eidolon is bad! It's only got a 16 dex(the most used stat IMHO) which becomes astronomical after some levels. I stated up a lv 15 summoner(I know thats kinda high) and he uses his inteligent flying motorcycle to rock the house. We both have insane dex(me 28, him 29) and are crossbow masters allowing us 8 shots(4 each) total per round. On top of this we are both sporting decent acs. (me 38, him 33 base) and are usually 60 feet above the battle field, or keeping well away from other flyers with his 120 ft fly speed. I can evo surge him a net and play battlefield control, or just summon mad azata's while he unloads round after round into people.
Too many people are obsessed with the pouncing hugemongous eidolons. It's childish honestly. Paizo gave us a great opportunity to be creative but it seems everyone's eidolon came from the same plane of nonstop pounce kickassery. Certainly doesn't sound like a place I'd want my best friend to come from.
Who said the serpentine eidolon is bad! It's only got a 16 dex(the most used stat IMHO) which becomes astronomical after some levels. I stated up a lv 15 summoner(I know thats kinda high) and he uses his inteligent flying motorcycle to rock the house. We both have insane dex(me 28, him 29) and are crossbow masters allowing us 8 shots(4 each) total per round. On top of this we are both sporting decent acs. (me 38, him 33 base) and are usually 60 feet above the battle field, or keeping well away from other flyers with his 120 ft fly speed. I can evo surge him a net and play battlefield control, or just summon mad azata's while he unloads round after round into people.
Too many people are obsessed with the pouncing hugemongous eidolons. It's childish honestly. Paizo gave us a great opportunity to be creative but it seems everyone's eidolon came from the same plane of nonstop pounce kickassery. Certainly doesn't sound like a place I'd want my best friend to come from.
Honestly this is mostly the fault of how the class is currently built. It's built for the Eidelon to be a melee combatatent. There is no good way to build a rogue type, or a ranger type, of eidelon. No way to do a support eidelon very well. So, what happens is the whole class get's marginalized into 'melee pounce fighter'. The last round of changes (with the eidelon going poof if you go to sleep, etc) broke the whole concept of a 'life long partnership' and reduced it to 'glass cannon I pull out when I'm awake'.
I'm kind of hoping the UM book adds some versatility to the class and offers some ways to get rid of that 'goes poof for no good reason' but I honestly don't see it happening.
Itbseems to me thatbin play with average players the eidolon isn't that bad. In our weekend game our groups eidolon doesn't touch my barbarian for damage. Could it ? Probably but in suspect most players eidolons are built like his
The fighter has better defenses and better longevity.The fighter can't respawn in the morning if he dies.
But neither can the eidolon if the summoner dies. And seeing as how the summoner has d8 hit dice and you've wasted all your WBL on the eidolon, that IS going to happen. A lot more than the fighter is going to die. Since he has to be within 100ft of the eidolon, he's fair game for any archer at all. Or any mage. Or anyone with a 50ft. movement speed (mostly monsters and mounted enemies).
There are many ways to contrive getting a fighter a full attack
In practice it usually comes down to walking up to them, or in other words ... rounds of low damage output.
Pounce is hugely strong ... yet somehow not strong enough to outdo 10% extra damage on a full attack?
If you charge more than 10% of your attacks it will. That differs from game to game though. If you keep to rather large dungeons or open fields, it will charge more than 10% of the time (note though that the fighter does damage on a charge too). If you play a lot in marches, foresty settings, busy streets and the like, you won't be able to charge that much. (note 10% of attacks not 10% of combats).
And since we're discussing glass cannons, I'd like to see how the eidolon does against a mounted fighter. It would be interesting, at least.
The fighter has better defenses and better longevity.The fighter can't respawn in the morning if he dies.
There are many ways to contrive getting a fighter a full attackIn practice it usually comes down to walking up to them, or in other words ... rounds of low damage output.
Pounce is hugely strong ... yet somehow not strong enough to outdo 10% extra damage on a full attack?
Fighter with a bow can full attack all day without ever moving. Past level 5 he can do so without provoking, and with a gauntlet, bootblade, or some other such weapon can even make AoOs.
I play 2 different summoners in 2 different campaigns, the parties I play in never seem to replace the fighter or barbarian with my eidolon hes just an added bonus to the party and makes a good combatant. I do really like the customizing for my summoned pet although I would like to see more stuff added to the eidolon class in future. I dont feel its to powerful at all afterall the summoner is still vulnerable and has to stay in range. If he is knocked out or sleeping he cant use the eidolon.I myself have not yet mastered the summoner class and would be very opened minded on tips to improve. So far everyone has pointed out some good stuff to help me build a better eidolon.This is a good class but could use some more work ,maybe in future book.
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