Balancing the Eidolon


Rules Questions

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Dark Archive

Hello,
Is there any official errata for the eidolon that balances it with the other animal companions.


Well.. no.. and there won't ever be.

The entire *point* of the class is to have a very powerful minion and a mediocre "player" instead of a very powerful player and a mediocre minion.

If they nerf the Eidolon to the point of just being an animal companion it invalidates the entire class premise.

-S

Dark Archive

I understand that the summoner's casting doesn't compare with any of the other classes. However, the combination of the summoner and eidolon, especially at high levels, out power several of the other class. A good argument can be made that they are the most powerful combat class. I like the idea behind the class, I am just trying to find a way to keep the playing field balanced. What house rules, if any, have others imposed?


Having played one, I think you might be over-inflating the problems with the class. Especially with the nerf that the summoner can't have the eidolon and his spell-like summon monster out at the same time, it really goes a long way to evening out the power level.

Is the class potent, sure. That said, many classes can be overpoweringly potent if abused or when compared to under-optimized characters within the same group.


I did this, and it seems to have worked very well for balancing the Eidelon's power output...

A) The limit on attacks is hard. That is, it's not just a limit on natural attacks, it's a limit on the number of attacks that can be made per turn. So, an eidelon that can make 5 attacks per turn can make 3 weapon attacks and 2 natural attacks, or 4 natural attacks and one weapon, or any combination that adds up to 5. Rather than use different rules for those attacks, I stipulated that Weapons the Eidelon has familiarity with are treated as Primary natural attacks, and weapons it doesn't have familiarity with are treated as Secondary. So, if you want an eidelon that has four arms, a bite, two slams, two claws, and two swords, a tail, wings and a wing buffet, go for it. But, if his current level limits him to 5 attacks, he has to choose 5 of those attacks to use this turn.

B) Threw the stupid 'Eidelon goes away when you sleep/fall unconscious' rule out the window. Eidelon stays around as long as you are alive.

C) Rather than make the character and Eidelon share slots, I modified it so that the Eidelon only get's a magic item slot every other level (so maximum 10). The Summoner can specify what the slots are whenever he changes the form (so, at 6th level it could have two rings and an amulet, or a cape, a belt, and a headband). Magic items stay with the eidelon if it's dismissed or killed, so they go back to it's native plane.

That seems to have worked well, IMHO.


I haven't seen one in play to know the balance of it- but I'd be curious to see how these "multi weapon" guys stack up, with how much magic weapons cost. Rogues gripe enough as it is with two melee weapons needing to be valid in combat.. if you have 2-4-6 arms I can't imagine it being any better. Even more so if you combine it with natural attacks and either need time to buff alot before hand or an amulet of mighty fists. (in addition to the weapons).

That, combined with the relatively low AC (since they took armor off the table for them) and I'm just curious how it works out. They seem like very very expensive glass cannons with the summoner being a secondary huge weakness for them.

As I said though- I've not seen one in play.

-S


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Selgard wrote:

I haven't seen one in play to know the balance of it- but I'd be curious to see how these "multi weapon" guys stack up, with how much magic weapons cost. Rogues gripe enough as it is with two melee weapons needing to be valid in combat.. if you have 2-4-6 arms I can't imagine it being any better. Even more so if you combine it with natural attacks and either need time to buff alot before hand or an amulet of mighty fists. (in addition to the weapons).

That, combined with the relatively low AC (since they took armor off the table for them) and I'm just curious how it works out. They seem like very very expensive glass cannons with the summoner being a secondary huge weakness for them.

As I said though- I've not seen one in play.

-S

The idea is to take Endurance and Diehard with the Eidolon and then build the Summoner as a battery for hit points. The Summoner is built with her best stat in Constitution, takes the Toughness feat, and stays invisible without doing anything threatening. This essentially allows the Summoner to be a health battery for the Eidolon (thanks to Diehard, the Eidolon won't ever go down unless the Summoner runs out of health first). This setup benefits greatly from a cleric, since the Eidolon can effectively be healed at double efficiency by Channel Positive Energy. The Eidolon won't really need to keep the weapons at a high enhancement bonus, so it shouldn't be too costly.

That said, I've banned the multiple arm weapon Eidolons in my game, so the best our resident min/maxer can do has been a Large Eidolon with as many 2d6 damage claws as allowed by the chart.


I have some suggestions on how to balance the Eidolon (so the limitations on the summoning SLA can be eased of). Also it removes some of the ridiculous "single route to success" design in the evolutions.

I'll just copy paste them here :

Quote:

- pounce, too powerful.

Solution : change so you can attack with 2 natural weapon attacks at the end of a charge.

- claws, they are the only weapons which can trigger rend and by getting as many as possible you can concentrate feats and other weapons specific boosts in one place.
Solution : can only be put on arms, together with the next one.

- limbs, having more than 2 arms is incredibly powerful, there is multiweapon fighting abuse, you can wield a two handed weapon and a shield, etc etc.
Solution : can only get arms 1 time (also makes the claws+rend combo a little less of a no brainer)

- pincers, underpowered with above changes.
Solution : become primary attacks

- slam, underpowered period.
Solution : you get two slam attacks, not one.

- tail slap, underpowered period.
Solution : roll tail and tail slap into one 1 point evolution.

- too bloody many primary natural attacks.
Solution : Only bite, claws, pincers, slams and rake remain primary.

I should add

- strength increases from size far better than polymorph spells, which are very poorly available to melee classes to start with
Solution : strength increases from size reduced to +4 and +8.

PS. the druid has his own balance problem ... the big cat is incredibly much better than all the other options (and in general all the animals and vermin in PF have really bad stats except for some of the cats and dinosaurs ... dunno what Paizo was thinking with these changes from 3e at all). So it's not entirely balanced against the big cat animal companion.

Scarab Sages

from my experience the summoner needs a power increase not a decrease - yes the eidolon is more powerful than an animal companion but it needs to be when the caster is sooo weak compared to other pet class casters especially druids

I would never play a summoner anymore now with the current rules

pounce is not too powerful - it is limited to quadraped forms (I think this is wrong but...) & animal companions get this to with some forms albeit at a later level - I would possibly recommend maybe allowing it only after say lev 5?

Dark Archive

Big cat is the most overrated thing in existence; get a T-Rex, you'll never go back. Seriously, where is this world where pounce ever actually happens?


I have a level one summoner in a weekly Kingmaker campaign, and I use pounce all the time. It isn't terribly powerful, but is sure handy to have. At level one the eidolon doesn't have an egregiously high attack bonus so I averaged about one hit per pounce.


DragonflyBlue wrote:
What house rules, if any, have others imposed?

The summoner is the 'i before e except when it's not class' there are SO many BUILT IN exceptions that it's ridiculous.

The house rules I'd go with would be removing a good number of these exceptions.

The class is badly designed in that they've patched it over patches in a fanatical desire to keep certain pokemon flavors, ditch those and make the class a summoner.

My suggestion would be to ditch the eidolon build a monster entirely and let the summoner have a permanent summon to which you apply familiar bonuses. As the summoner levels to be able to summon more powerful creatures he can perform a ritual to bond a more powerful summon as his familiar, etc.

Then you can ditch ALL the special rules for summoners what with item slots, armor, number of attacks, not being able to summon, etc.

-James


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You wanna see OP let someone gestalt a cleric and summoner...


Kryzbyn wrote:
You wanna see OP let someone gestalt a cleric and summoner...

Summoner and Oracle. It is less MAD.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Saedar wrote:
Kryzbyn wrote:
You wanna see OP let someone gestalt a cleric and summoner...
Summoner and Oracle. It is less MAD.

True.


When does the problems appear. Currently I'm playing an Inquisitor in group with a Summoner, Druid, Alchemist and Rogue/fighter. We are currently 7th level and the summoner seems about equal to all in the group.


voska66 wrote:
When does the problems appear. Currently I'm playing an Inquisitor in group with a Summoner, Druid, Alchemist and Rogue/fighter. We are currently 7th level and the summoner seems about equal to all in the group.

Probably never then.

The issue isn't the summoner, honestly. Even under the playtest it wasn't. The issue is that if you min-max the system to the hilt, the class can be overpowered.

On the other hand, so can the druid, wizard, sorcerer, fighter, barbarian, paladin, etcetera etcetera etcetera.

The real issue is that someone out to game the system to the max when mixed into a group that's not doing so throws the whole thing out of balance.


Making a good eidolon is a bit more work than simply taking a big cat animal companion and casting animal growth on it ... but if you make him a large quadraped pouncer with max number of primary natural attacks the Eidolon will make mince meat of just about everything.

That's not min maxing to the hilt, that's simply refusing to take blatantly obvious trap options.

Fighter and Barbarian only get their pounces at level 11 and 10 ... they don't have enough money to afford an armour to make them large with a decent size bonus to strength bonus _once a day_ for even longer (neither can the casters buff them, because most of the polymorph spells are now personal range). A competently build Eidolon will outdamage a competently build melee fighter or barbarian at most levels.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
That's not min maxing to the hilt, that's simply refusing to take blatantly obvious trap options

So, two of the three basic eidolon types are "trap options"? As are 15 of the 17 basic druid companion animal types?

Dark Archive

Don't look here; I prefer bipeds for higher strength and reach gains for size. The serpent option does sadden me quite a bit though. Of course, I have long believed pounce to be overrated... how often is there no difficult terrain and you have a clear line? Setting oneself to charge is nearly impossible.


Pinky's Brain wrote:


Fighter and Barbarian only get their pounces at level 11 and 10 ... they don't have enough money to afford an armour to make them large with a decent size bonus to strength bonus _once a day_ for even longer (neither can the casters buff them, because most of the polymorph spells are now personal range). A competently build Eidolon will outdamage a competently build melee fighter or barbarian at most levels.

So much of this is incorrect.

The easiest to refute is the ability of fighters to be size large at 10th level. I'll refer you to the spell: permanency and then to the listed spell: enlarge person.

-James


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mhd wrote:
So, two of the three basic eidolon types are "trap options"? As are 15 of the 17 basic druid companion animal types?

Yes.

Cheese is finding combinations which aren't immediately obvious but stupidly powerful. For instance a rogue using sniper goggles, a two level dip in horizon walker (ethereal plane mastery), the feat or talent which allows him to sneak attack opponents with concealment and a homunculus with a horn of fog ... that's cheese. Picking one of out X basic class options where the one is vastly better than all the others is simply refusing to piss up wind.

If developers go out of their way to make it obvious which way they want a class to be played I go along with it, or just not play the class. I avoid cheese unless it's a game where it's expected ... but I don't play low int wizards, I don't play medium bear animal companion druids, I don't play serpentine eidolon summoners.

PS. even ignoring pounce the big cat is awesome, and almost all of the other animal companions are crap, it makes a far better bear than the bear.


james maissen wrote:
So much of this is incorrect.

"with a decent size bonus to strength"

+2 (enlarge person) doesn't really compare to +8 (large evolution) now does it?

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Thalin wrote:
Don't look here; I prefer bipeds for higher strength and reach gains for size. The serpent option does sadden me quite a bit though. Of course, I have long believed pounce to be overrated... how often is there no difficult terrain and you have a clear line? Setting oneself to charge is nearly impossible.

It is super easy at mid to high level with flight and reach.


Charge is one of those "things" that is highly dependant on your campaign and DM. In some games its incredibly easy and happens often and in others it isn't.. and doesn't.

As such, pounce is either awesome or not.

Some of you who have played them and used them- can you show your builds? I'd be interested in seeing the eidolon who was both better damage and less squishy than the fighter- or at least of equal squishiness. It seems that building the "uber damage dealer" takes up enough of your feats and evolutions that you can't be that and also tough enough to survive more than a fight or two.

-S


Pinky's Brain wrote:
Stuff

You need to post builds to back up your claims. Zurai made "Fighterman" and "SummonerGirl" with same point buy and optimized them as much as i have seen anyone. With the comparison shows most people misguided view of the Eidolon. Im going to agree with Selgrad, James Maissen, and rest that Summoners as they stand now are no where close to being overpowered.

As to the OP, there is no reason to errata them in line with Druid animal companions. The summoner is FAR weaker than a Druid, but his pet is little stronger to help offset this.


Slacker2010 wrote:
Zurai made "Fighterman"

Which is not a melee character and thus does nothing to disprove my point.

Any way lets take a level 7 eidolon (that's before large kicks in) and pit him in a 2 round match against an AC20 opponent and do the same for a melee fighter. No cheese, so no multiweapon fighting with manufactured weapons for the eidolon and no two handed weapon with armor spikes for the fighter. They both close in the first round with charge.

Eidolon :

Evolutions :
Pounce (1)
Bite (1)
Gore (2)
Flight (2)
Rend (2)
Ability Increase (2)
Energy Attacks (2) (from lesser evolution surge)

Buffs :
Lesser evolution surge (cast by summoner, eidolon delays to get it)
haste (boots of speed, not adding an extra natural attack because it's controversial)
GMF

Relevant items :
Boots of speed
Belt of giant strength +2

Relevant feats :
Weapon focus claws
INA claws

Strength : 22

Full Attack :
Bite +14 1d6+1d6+10 (x2)
Claws +15/+15 1d6+1d6+7 (x2)
Gore +14 1d6+1d6+7 (x2)

Potentially rend : 1d6+1d6+10

Damage Eidolon :
Round 1 : 0.85*17*1.05 + 2*0.9*14*1.05 + 0.85*14*1.05 + 0.9*0.9*17 =
15.2 + 26.5 + 12.5 + 13.8 = 68
Round 2 : 0.75*17*1.05 + 2*0.8*14*1.05 + 0.75*14*1.05 + 0.8*0.8*17 =
13.4 + 23.5 + 11 + 10.9 = 58.8

Total : 126.8

Weapon master Fighter TWF'ing with a double sword (TWF maximizes bonus damage gains, together with double slice this makes for overall more damage than say two handed fighter) :

Relevant feats :
TWF
ITWF
Double Slice
EWP double sword
Weapon Focus/Spec double sword
Power Attack (just about worth it on both rounds)

Buffs :
Haste (boots of speed)

Relevant items :
Boots of speed
Belt of giant strength +2
+1/+1 double sword (a little high on wealth, but meh).

Strength : 21

Full attack :
Double sword +17/+17/+12//+17/+12 1d6+10 (19-20/x2)

Damage Fighter :
Round 1 : 0.9*19.5*1.1 = 19.3
Round 2 : (2*0.8 + 0.55)*17.5*1.1 + (0.8 + 0.55)*15.5*1.1 = 41.4 + 23 = 64.4

Total : 83.7

Eidolons make fighters cry (once large kicks in the small damage advantage on full attacks the fighter still has evaporates completely).


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Thalin wrote:
Big cat is the most overrated thing in existence; get a T-Rex, you'll never go back. Seriously, where is this world where pounce ever actually happens?

Nimble moves and acrobatic step and it happens much more often.

Also: Few summoners need the horseshoe slot -- so let the eidolion have it for Horseshoes of the Zypher. Less filling and tastes great! Finally having a fly speed does wonderful things for opening up charge lines.

Being mounted on the eidolon with pounce and a fly speed while you use ride by attack means that it gets a full attack, you get a spirited charge and you both get back out of melee -- it's a win/win/win situation.*

*Claims are extraordinary and do not represent normal customers. Some terms and limitations apply, see store for details. Past success is not a garuantee of future success each case is different and must be tried on its own merits. Results not typical. No actual warantee or garuantee is agreed to, implied or expilictedly stated. Voided in some states and where prohibited.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
Slacker2010 wrote:
Zurai made "Fighterman"
Which is not a melee character and thus does nothing to disprove my point.

This makes me laugh. Hard.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
bad builds

That's a really sad fighter. I don't think you tried too hard on it.

You forgot to pay for your claws evolution too (actually you probablyu simply forgot that quads get bite not claws and put down the wrong one since you paid for bite when you don't need to).

Also what's your Saves, AC and HP on that eidolon? What's your summoner got (it's looking like nothing since you are incredibly over WBL -- the boots alone puts you 2,000 gp over)? One more potential problem, if the eidolon charges out past 100 feet (possible with this build) he's going to lose HP.

Finally, I *think* the gore and bite attack combination violates the different limbs rule of natural weapons, due to the fact they both use the head. No other creature has a gore and a bite that full attacks with both.


Oops, granted on the claws, replace bite by claws and subtract 5 from total damage ... but as for the fighter ... try to do it better.

I could take the boots of speeds out of these builds but a lack of haste impacts the fighter far more than the eidolon (as I said, I didn't give him an extra attack). I just included them for haste, to give the fighter more of a fighting chance ... just ignore them and assume a party member cast it if you want.

Gargoyle bites and gores.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
... but I don't play low int wizards, I don't play medium bear animal companion druids, I don't play serpentine eidolon summoners.

So under this quote by you, why would you compare the Eidolon to a Melee fighter? Why don't we compare the Summoner Eidolon to a low int wizard? or any of the other sub-par classes you suggest? In fact lets be fair and do the serpentine Eidolon since we are going to sub-par build the fighter.


Slacker2010 wrote:
since we are going to sub-par build the fighter.

Pshaw ... remember "You need to post builds to back up your claims."

A non limburger level 7 melee fighter build which outperforms mine, show me. I can guarantee you right now, if I level down fighterman to level 7 he won't touch the damage of the build I posted.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
A non limburger level 7 melee fighter build which outperforms mine, show me. I can guarantee you right now, if I level down fighterman to level 7 he won't touch the damage of the build I posted.

Why would I need to do work thats already done? Zurai did complete builds along with a scenario with a monster to compare. Level 20 is used because everyone gets things at different levels causing sweet spots.

Your builds are no where near complete. Are the characters hitting statues? Cause i see no listed AC for them. While I will admit the Eidolon can dish out dmg, being a glass cannon is worthless. If its dead it will deal no dmg. Way back before the APG came out (when the Summoner seemed fun to play) I messed around a little with builds and I never had a build that didn't spend some Evolution points on Defense. I think they problems DM's have with Summoners is that they don't know how to handle them in a game. They are in the Advanced Players Guide for a reason.


Slacker2010 wrote:
Your builds are no where near complete. Are the characters hitting statues? Cause i see no listed AC for them.

"Any way lets take a level 7 eidolon (that's before large kicks in) and pit him in a 2 round match against an AC20 opponent and do the same for a melee fighter.<snip>They both close in the first round with charge."

The builds are sufficient for what I want to show ... that the Eidolon outdamages melee PCs.

Quote:
While I will admit the Eidolon can dish out dmg

I think a pet shouldn't outdamage a damage oriented melee fighter ... bad for morale.

The only defence I can buy is improved natural armour, I'd have to give up flight for it ... wouldn't matter in the damage calculation.


Pinky's Brain wrote:

Oops, granted on the claws, replace bite by claws and subtract 5 from total damage ... but as for the fighter ... try to do it better.

Umm for one you could start with a 19STR which would go up to 22.

Secondly all you are saying is that pounce is good. Without using the pounce this underoptimized fighter outdamages your eidolon.

Could I ask that you break down your bonuses to hit & damage for each? It makes it easier to read over. I'm not quite following all the bonuses there (for example the +10 damage on the bite). Also full builds are easier to critique. For example your eidolon has around 2/3 the hps of the fighter that you are listing, which may or may not figure into things but should be there for the comparison.

Here's an example fighter on a 20pt build, not using a variant from the APG:
Human Fighter
STR 24 (17+2racial+1bump+2Belt+2Size)
INT 07
WIS 14
DEX 12 (14 -2Size)
CON 14
CHA 07

Level 7
Hps 74 (10 [lvl1] +36 [lvl2-7] +14 [CON] +7 [Favored Class] +7 toughness)
AC 22 (10 +10 armor[+1 fullplate] +1 Dex[DEX] +1 Deflection[Ring], +1haste, -1Size)
Skills: Intimidate +19 (7 ranks +3 class -2CHA +7STR +4Size), Climb +10 (3 ranks +3class +7 STR -3ACP), Swim +5 (1 ranks +3 class +7STR -6ACP), Survival +6 (1 rank +3 class +2WIS), Linguistics +0 (2 ranks- pick 2 languages)
Feats Power Attack(f), Toughness, Weapon Focus (greatsword)(f), Furious Focus(f), Iron Will, Weapon Spec (greatsword)(f), Improved Iron Will, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash

FORT +8(5 Base +2[CON] +1 Resistance[Cloak])
REF +5(2 Base +1[DEX] +1 Resistance[Cloak] +1haste)
Will +7(2 Base +2[WIS] +1 Resistance[Cloak] +2Feat[IronWill])
Specials: Reroll 1 Failed Will save, circumstance bonuses (Bravery)

Gear:
+2 belt of strength (4000)
+1 Full plate (2650)
+1 ring of protection (2000)
+1 flaming greatsword (8350)
+1 cloak of resistance
Permanent Enlarge Person (2950gp)
2k gold in incidentals

Full attack:
+17/+15/+10 (7BAB +7STR +1focus +1training +1magic -1size 0/-2PowerAttack +1haste) 19-20crit
for damage:
3d6+1d6+20 (10STR 6PowerAttack +1magic +2spec +1training)

Against AC 20:
.9+.8+.55 = 2.25 hits +.225 crit extras
Expected damage: 76.5(34x2.25) +6.8625(30.5x0.225) =83.3625

In other words what your fighter did with an additional charge attack.

Also if you want you could swap out two feats for improved bull rush and rhino charge to ready charges if that occurs often enough for you.

With that charge attack (assuming that this is the best option, often its not) you're looking at another 37 damage for 120 which seems fairly even to your pouncing eidolon.

If the enemy closes on you not letting you pounce then the fighter comes close to double your eidolon. Likewise the fighter has close to double the hps of your eidolon.

So how does this make the fighter cry?

-James


Pinky's Brain wrote:
I think a pet shouldn't outdamage a damage oriented melee fighter ... bad for morale.

James Jacob commented that the whole point of playing the Summoner class is for the Eidolon. Think of the Eidolon as the PC and the summoner as the pet. Most people just use the summoner for buffing the Eidolon.

James Maissen wrote:
"a fighter build"

+1


james maissen wrote:
Umm for one you could start with a 19STR which would go up to 22.

If I take a +2 strength race. I can also use half-elf for the summoner to get extra evolution points ... but that level of specialization is inappropriate in determining the ability of the class IMO.

Quote:
for example the +10 damage on the bite

With the bite evolution taken twice it gets 1 1/2 strength ... as I said, losing that cost ~5 on total damage.

Permanency enlarge person was the kind of optimization I wanted to avoid. It's cheesy, makes for awkward roleplaying and once it gets dispelled a few times people stop buying it. It can be done with the eidolon as well (summoner can cast enlarge person on his eidolon, and use UMD to use a scroll of permancy).

More detailed numbers for Eidolon :

Attacks :
Bite +14 (+6 BAB +6 Strength +1 enhancement +1 haste) 1d6+1d6 (energy) +7 (+6 strength +1 enhancement) (x2)
Claws +15/+15 (+1 WF) 1d6+1d6+7 (x2)
Gore +14 1d6+1d6+7 (x2)
Rend 1d6+1d6+10 (1 1/2 strength mod)

Round 1 full attack with charge (+2 attack), round two full attack.

Damage Eidolon :
Round 1 : 0.85*14*1.05 (bite) + 2*0.9*14*1.05 (claws) + 0.85*14*1.05 (gore) + 0.9*0.9*17 (rend) =
12.5 + 26.5 + 12.5 + 13.8 = 65.3
Round 2 : 0.75*14*1.05 + 2*0.8*14*1.05 + 0.75*14*1.05 + 0.8*0.8*17 =
11 + 23.5 + 11 + 10.9 = 56.4
Total damage 121.7

For your fighter build without enlarge and racial strength mod :

Max attack bonus :
7 (BAB) + 5 (STR) + 1 (WF) + 1 (training) + 1 (enhancement) + 1 (haste) = 16
Normal damage 2d6 +1d6 (fire) +11 (+7 strength +1 training +1 enhancement +2 weapon spec)

Round 1 power attack two handed with charge (+2 attack), round two power attack full attack.

Round 1 : 0.95*27.5*1.1 = 28.7
Round 2 : (0.85 + 0.75 + 0.5)*27.5*1.1 = 63.5

Total damage 92.2

Guess I underestimated the impact of furious focus and lack of energy damage ... will take at least one more level for TWF fighter to be the best at damage.

Didn't shift the balance with the Eidolon though.


Pinky's Brain wrote:


If I take a +2 strength race. I can also use half-elf for the summoner to get extra evolution points ... but that level of specialization is inappropriate in determining the ability of the class IMO.

Permanency enlarge person was the kind of optimization I wanted to avoid. It's cheesy, makes for awkward roleplaying and once it gets dispelled a few times people stop buying it. It can be done with the eidolon as well (summoner can cast enlarge person on his eidolon, and use UMD to use a scroll of permancy).

We differ on opinions here.

First yes I am assuming a +str race, so what? Are you bumping STR with your eidolon or CHA? That's not specialization, rather that's simply choosing something that goes with the other.

There's a place for Dwarven sorcerers and the like, but in these discussions I don't think it's all that reasonable.

As to permanent enlarge, it's not cheesy and it's easy to guard against dispels. Simply have a spell on you with a caster level one higher and now what are the odds it will be dispelled? How many dispels are you going to be taking? How many dismissals and de-evolutions is the eidolon?

But again, go with the suboptimal fighter build that YOU made and your eidolon is outdamaged by IT! I think that's the MOST telling.

All you have going is that the eidolon can pounce. Period. Beyond that its doing far less damage with far less hps than a quickly thrown together fighter. That the fighter that I made in 5 minutes does 125% or more damage than that is just gravy.

I think you've disproved your own point here.

-James


Who said the serpentine eidolon is bad! It's only got a 16 dex(the most used stat IMHO) which becomes astronomical after some levels. I stated up a lv 15 summoner(I know thats kinda high) and he uses his inteligent flying motorcycle to rock the house. We both have insane dex(me 28, him 29) and are crossbow masters allowing us 8 shots(4 each) total per round. On top of this we are both sporting decent acs. (me 38, him 33 base) and are usually 60 feet above the battle field, or keeping well away from other flyers with his 120 ft fly speed. I can evo surge him a net and play battlefield control, or just summon mad azata's while he unloads round after round into people.

Too many people are obsessed with the pouncing hugemongous eidolons. It's childish honestly. Paizo gave us a great opportunity to be creative but it seems everyone's eidolon came from the same plane of nonstop pounce kickassery. Certainly doesn't sound like a place I'd want my best friend to come from.


Shizzle69 wrote:

Who said the serpentine eidolon is bad! It's only got a 16 dex(the most used stat IMHO) which becomes astronomical after some levels. I stated up a lv 15 summoner(I know thats kinda high) and he uses his inteligent flying motorcycle to rock the house. We both have insane dex(me 28, him 29) and are crossbow masters allowing us 8 shots(4 each) total per round. On top of this we are both sporting decent acs. (me 38, him 33 base) and are usually 60 feet above the battle field, or keeping well away from other flyers with his 120 ft fly speed. I can evo surge him a net and play battlefield control, or just summon mad azata's while he unloads round after round into people.

Too many people are obsessed with the pouncing hugemongous eidolons. It's childish honestly. Paizo gave us a great opportunity to be creative but it seems everyone's eidolon came from the same plane of nonstop pounce kickassery. Certainly doesn't sound like a place I'd want my best friend to come from.

Honestly this is mostly the fault of how the class is currently built. It's built for the Eidelon to be a melee combatatent. There is no good way to build a rogue type, or a ranger type, of eidelon. No way to do a support eidelon very well. So, what happens is the whole class get's marginalized into 'melee pounce fighter'. The last round of changes (with the eidelon going poof if you go to sleep, etc) broke the whole concept of a 'life long partnership' and reduced it to 'glass cannon I pull out when I'm awake'.

I'm kind of hoping the UM book adds some versatility to the class and offers some ways to get rid of that 'goes poof for no good reason' but I honestly don't see it happening.


mdt wrote:


I'm kind of hoping the UM book adds some versatility to the class and offers some ways to get rid of that 'goes poof for no good reason' but I honestly don't see it happening.

I don't see it happening either.

Frankly when they accepted making all of those rules exceptions to 'balance' the class is where they lost me.

But in a good part its because they fell in love with the create your own monster part of the class rather than focusing on making it a 'summoner' at least imho.

-James

Sovereign Court

The title of this thread would make a great band name


james maissen wrote:
First yes I am assuming a +str race, so what? Are you bumping STR with your eidolon or CHA?

Yes, but I'm not assuming a race which gets extra evolution points.

Quote:
As to permanent enlarge, it's not cheesy

The hell it isn't, you make yourself effectively unavailable for normal social interaction for what are only very small bonuses.

Quote:
But again, go with the suboptimal fighter build that YOU made and your eidolon is outdamaged by IT! I think that's the MOST telling.

I didn't go balls to the wall on damage for the Eidolon by a long shot.

We can do a build like that too if you like ... two rounds, level 7, move and attack first round, full attack second, Give me a true damage only optimized fighter build and I will be able to beat it with an Eidolon.

Quote:
All you have going is that the eidolon can pounce.

Which is enough ... charging is not that hard, even ignoring this Eidolon can fly while the fighter is still crawling around.


Pinky's Brain wrote:


I didn't go balls to the wall on damage for the Eidolon by a long shot.

You put forth two quick, frankly not all that thought out builds.

Given your two builds you're claiming that it demonstrates something. The fighter does more damage per round baring the eidolon being able to pounce when the fighter doesn't get to make a full attack.

The fighter has better defenses and better longevity.

Done.

You've argued against yourself here.

If you want to post a full build that you think can do the job then do so. Perhaps you won't outdo yourself in the same post when doing so.

Pounce is a hugely strong ability. Claiming the rest from there is wrong though. There are many ways to contrive getting a fighter a full attack, they're reasonably done and often so as how strong it is when it happens.

That's all you've shown and its neither new nor unknown.

-James


Itbseems to me thatbin play with average players the eidolon isn't that bad. In our weekend game our groups eidolon doesn't touch my barbarian for damage. Could it ? Probably but in suspect most players eidolons are built like his


james maissen wrote:
The fighter has better defenses and better longevity.

The fighter can't respawn in the morning if he dies.

Quote:
There are many ways to contrive getting a fighter a full attack

In practice it usually comes down to walking up to them, or in other words ... rounds of low damage output.

Pounce is hugely strong ... yet somehow not strong enough to outdo 10% extra damage on a full attack?


Pinky's Brain wrote:
james maissen wrote:
The fighter has better defenses and better longevity.
The fighter can't respawn in the morning if he dies.

But neither can the eidolon if the summoner dies. And seeing as how the summoner has d8 hit dice and you've wasted all your WBL on the eidolon, that IS going to happen. A lot more than the fighter is going to die. Since he has to be within 100ft of the eidolon, he's fair game for any archer at all. Or any mage. Or anyone with a 50ft. movement speed (mostly monsters and mounted enemies).

Quote:
There are many ways to contrive getting a fighter a full attack

In practice it usually comes down to walking up to them, or in other words ... rounds of low damage output.

Pounce is hugely strong ... yet somehow not strong enough to outdo 10% extra damage on a full attack?

If you charge more than 10% of your attacks it will. That differs from game to game though. If you keep to rather large dungeons or open fields, it will charge more than 10% of the time (note though that the fighter does damage on a charge too). If you play a lot in marches, foresty settings, busy streets and the like, you won't be able to charge that much. (note 10% of attacks not 10% of combats).

And since we're discussing glass cannons, I'd like to see how the eidolon does against a mounted fighter. It would be interesting, at least.


Pinky's Brain wrote:
james maissen wrote:
The fighter has better defenses and better longevity.

The fighter can't respawn in the morning if he dies.

Quote:
There are many ways to contrive getting a fighter a full attack

In practice it usually comes down to walking up to them, or in other words ... rounds of low damage output.

Pounce is hugely strong ... yet somehow not strong enough to outdo 10% extra damage on a full attack?

Fighter with a bow can full attack all day without ever moving. Past level 5 he can do so without provoking, and with a gauntlet, bootblade, or some other such weapon can even make AoOs.


I play 2 different summoners in 2 different campaigns, the parties I play in never seem to replace the fighter or barbarian with my eidolon hes just an added bonus to the party and makes a good combatant. I do really like the customizing for my summoned pet although I would like to see more stuff added to the eidolon class in future. I dont feel its to powerful at all afterall the summoner is still vulnerable and has to stay in range. If he is knocked out or sleeping he cant use the eidolon.I myself have not yet mastered the summoner class and would be very opened minded on tips to improve. So far everyone has pointed out some good stuff to help me build a better eidolon.This is a good class but could use some more work ,maybe in future book.

Long live Pokemon/Digimon

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