RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If you fix the caster/melee balance issues you end up with 4e. Magic is no longer magical, it's just fluff that exists to make Wizard powers different from Fighter powers.
I know I'm rather late quoting this, and someone beyond me has probably already addressed it, but that's not the only way to do this.
The inherent problem is people tend to try to think of their favorite fantasy heroes as being high level characters, when they're not. Beowulf (the guy who ripped off a trolls arm and beat him to death with it) was probably a level 5 or 6 barbarian. I HIGHLY doubt Herakles himself was over level 10-ish.
I think the claims that literary heroes like Conan or Elric, Aragorn or the Grey Mouser, are best represented in the game (D&D 3rd Edition on through Pathfinder) as being "between 4th and 8th level" has merit. That's the kind of fantasy that the game designers had in mind to simulate, and that's likely why those level are "the sweet spot" in the game, why the heavy predominance of adventures are written for that level.
If that's the case, if the demigod Herakles is best represented at "level 10-ish", then what kind of fantasy trope is best represented by levels 17-19?
This isn't a slam at all. This is an honest question. Who's that much tougher than Herakles?
I can't think of much in the way of fiction where you've got a group of high-level characters running around doing things as a high-level PC party will, but I think you can find examples of what would be high-level characters as parts of stories.
For example, take Glen Cook's Black Company. The Company themselves feel like a bunch of low-midlevel characters, but the Ten Who Were Taken and the like feel like high-level spellcasters. Granted, they don't have a Fly or Teleport spell and they need to craft flying carpets to move around instead. They have that kind of feel of power of characters that are so strong that if you get a couple of them on the same team they literally start conquering the world and nothing can really stop them.
So in answer to the original question, I feel like the ultra-high levels only really appear as villians or sort of plot devices in humanish form.
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Who's that much tougher than Herakles?
I see that as the rhetorical question that discredits the premise that a demigod is "level 10ish."
If Heracles is a 10th level Barbarian then Athena would be, what, 20th level. And Zeus 21st?!
I don't know the Thread in which Dreamslinger argues that balancing high level Wizards creates the WotC game by making magic not magical, but I disagree.
There are other design sets that make casters and fighters balanced -- one just hast to overhall the HP system, the magic system, the class level system, etc.
Only then could one begin to accurately make mythological characters analogous with D&D PCs. (Which certainly doesn't make making inaccurate analogies fun!)
(At least for today's System -- check out the original Dieties and Demigods to find stat blocks for Zeus and King Arthur and Cthulhu and Thor and Heracles and Vishnu and bunches of others. And remember how different 1E was.)
You could check out the Taltos novels by steven brust. That is probably the most telling example of a fantasy novel/world that is well represented by high level dnd play. As it stands i think most fantasy is more E20 then D20.
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The Runelord series.
Through their dedicates (i.e Achilles heel), a Runelord could literally have the Strength, Stamina, Metabolism, Grace, Glamor, Voice, Wit, Sight, Hearing, or Smell of hundreds of people.
If that wouldn't be a high level campaign, I don't know what would.
If you fix the caster/melee balance issues you end up with 4e. Magic is no longer magical, it's just fluff that exists to make Wizard powers different from Fighter powers.I know I'm rather late quoting this, and someone beyond me has probably already addressed it, but that's not the only way to do this.
The inherent problem is people tend to try to think of their favorite fantasy heroes as being high level characters, when they're not. Beowulf (the guy who ripped off a trolls arm and beat him to death with it) was probably a level 5 or 6 barbarian. I HIGHLY doubt Herakles himself was over level 10-ish.
I think the claims that literary heroes like Conan or Elric, Aragorn or the Grey Mouser, are best represented in the game (D&D 3rd Edition on through Pathfinder) as being "between 4th and 8th level" has merit. That's the kind of fantasy that the game designers had in mind to simulate, and that's likely why those level are "the sweet spot" in the game, why the heavy predominance of adventures are written for that level.
If that's the case, if the demigod Herakles is best represented at "level 10-ish", then what kind of fantasy trope is best represented by levels 17-19?
This isn't a slam at all. This is an honest question. Who's that much tougher than Herakles?
I'd say any characters from a David Eddings book. By the end of many of the book he writes the characters are walking deities.
Games aren't literature, so this becomes very difficult.
To me, high level is best for evil wizards of immense power who appear in myth and prophecy in TV shows and maybe appear for one scene. High level Meleers are best for the ancient heroes who once opposed those villains.
But really, the powers at those levels are pretty much godlike. With the exception of maybe Superman, most fiction doesn't allow for major godlike protagonists, because it is hard to write correctly. Just like high level games are difficult to GM!
I'd say any characters from a David Eddings book. By the end of many of the book he writes the characters are walking deities.If you fix the caster/melee balance issues you end up with 4e. Magic is no longer magical, it's just fluff that exists to make Wizard powers different from Fighter powers.I know I'm rather late quoting this, and someone beyond me has probably already addressed it, but that's not the only way to do this.
The inherent problem is people tend to try to think of their favorite fantasy heroes as being high level characters, when they're not. Beowulf (the guy who ripped off a trolls arm and beat him to death with it) was probably a level 5 or 6 barbarian. I HIGHLY doubt Herakles himself was over level 10-ish.
I think the claims that literary heroes like Conan or Elric, Aragorn or the Grey Mouser, are best represented in the game (D&D 3rd Edition on through Pathfinder) as being "between 4th and 8th level" has merit. That's the kind of fantasy that the game designers had in mind to simulate, and that's likely why those level are "the sweet spot" in the game, why the heavy predominance of adventures are written for that level.
If that's the case, if the demigod Herakles is best represented at "level 10-ish", then what kind of fantasy trope is best represented by levels 17-19?
This isn't a slam at all. This is an honest question. Who's that much tougher than Herakles?
+1 to this. And also why I lost interest in his books after a while. the characters were just so preposterously powerful that nothing was a challenge for them and there was no dramatic tension, at least in my opinion.
In fantasy literature, I find very. very little that looks much like high level PF/D&D. In some of the greatest myths and legends of various cultures you may find a few heroes (Beowulf, Gilgamesh, Hiawatha, etc.) that could be considered high level, but they are each the greatest hero of an entire culture, not a representation of a world in which such high powered beings is common.
Frankly, as others have said before me, comic book superheroes are probably the best approximation of high-level games in print. Japanese anime, videogames, the Matrix movies and Chinese martial arts movies are also decent approximations in other media.
You could check out the Taltos novels by steven brust. That is probably the most telling example of a fantasy novel/world that is well represented by high level dnd play. As it stands i think most fantasy is more E20 then D20.
E20?
Frankly, as others have said before me, comic book superheroes are probably the best approximation of high-level games in print.
Both comic books and RPGs are (more often than not) adolescent power-fantasies. Plus, the plot structure of a comic book is far more similar to a running RPG than most literary fiction.
I'm not a huge fan of super-hero comics myself, but certainly looking at how a super hero team gets challenged in a scene teaches you a lot about GMing for a high level party. I try to plan my encounters as "The Superfriends" because frankly it works. Everyone gets something to contribute.
You have the exact same issues at stake narratively! Each "character" is little more than a bundle of superhuman powers, and you are juggling several of these in a scene. Readers invariably identify with one character more than others, so you really need to include them all. The parallels are too many to ignore.
The only major disconnect between the two is the advancement system in RPGs. Comic book heroes generally don't advance, or if they do it is the occasional discovery of a new power or some kind of training. Characters in RPGs, well, they advance very quickly. Usually on the order of 8 levels a year or faster, if the Adventure Paths are any indication.
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You could check out the Taltos novels by steven brust. That is probably the most telling example of a fantasy novel/world that is well represented by high level dnd play. As it stands i think most fantasy is more E20 then D20.E20?
Think E6, but level 20 is the ceiling, not level 6. If you don't know what E6 is, google "E6 RPG".
Conan single-handedly slew a remorhaz. Is that only eighth level?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Amusingly, I think the Dresden Files cover 'level advancement' pretty well, scaling up the menaces as the power goes up. I mean look at Storm Front vs. Changes.
Changes level Harry would have just gone down to his lab, scried with Little Chicago, taken the storm energy attack and reversed it, then go upstairs and take a cold shower and Storm Front would have been a lot short. "Murph showed me the corpse. I'd seen worse, but it was still ugly. I told her it wouldn't be a problem. That kind of energy would leave a trail across little Chicago. I'll find him, call Luccio and be done in time for dinner."
It's the beauty of Dresdenverse magic that he can still be taken down by a sniper rifle. (and 'almost' in Side Jobs)
Which story/issue was that in? It sounds vaguely familiar, but I just can't put my finger on it. :D
As to original topic, Riftwar springs to mind. Think about the stuff that Pug, Thomas, Nakor and the rest are pulling off.
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As to original topic, Riftwar springs to mind. Think about the stuff that Pug, Thomas, Nakor and the rest are pulling off.
Definitely a good example. Indeed, I found the later books less accessible for that reason. Once adventures start with Thomas summoning a pet dragon to ride, and Pug travelling to other dimensions to fight things that scare the gods, I kinda lost the thread of it, and got more interested in what Jimmy the Hand was up to...
While not fantasy, Julian May's Pliocine Exile tended to operate on these sorts of levels as well, as do many of Zelazny's protagonists, from Lords of Light, Creatures of Light & Darkness, Jack of Shadows, Isle of the Dead and / or the Amber / Courts of Chaos books.
Back to fantasy, the sorts of power thrown around by the characters in Tanith Lee's Delusions Master, etc. books, or that Rand al'Thor ends up tossing around in later Wheel of Time books, could also be seen as Epic fantasy.
Characters with, by D&D standards, pretty Epic power levels, or at least some Epic attributes, tend to creep around sci-fi and fantasy, such as the Dragonriders of Pern, who, while hardly all that personally, do *ride dragons,* or the Ship Who Sang, who is a sentient spaceship, or Sybel (from Forgotten Beasts of Eld) who also had a pet dragon, in addition to a half-dozen other nigh-epic companion creatures. Yoda lifting an X-Wing via the Force, was well beyond what a 20th level Wizard could accomplish with the telekinesis spell, and then there's always comic books...
Think E6, but level 20 is the ceiling, not level 6. If you don't know what E6 is, google "E6 RPG".You could check out the Taltos novels by steven brust. That is probably the most telling example of a fantasy novel/world that is well represented by high level dnd play. As it stands i think most fantasy is more E20 then D20.E20?
I actually meant E6, it was a typo. I think that the sense of progression you get from E6 better represents what alot of fantasy authors create. DnD at high levels has always kind of been it's own thing because power continue to scale on a relatively regular rate through the players entire career. Usually in fantasy there is something of a cap and the whole adventure/story happens in what we would consider the span of just a few levels.
Rand Al'Thor in Towers of Midnight.
I think there are lots of examples in literature of high level heroes; it's the high level party where things get out of hand.
Heracles would be high level, but he is special and different. He doesn't adventure with Merlin, Thor, Moses, Vishnu and Anansi.
Oh, and he can't drop by the local magic merchant to buy Excalibur and the Golden Fleece.
Heracles would be high level, but he is special and different. He doesn't adventure with Merlin, Thor, Moses, Vishnu and Anansi.
That'd be AWESOME! I wonder who the BBEG would be. I smell fanfic!
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There is very, very little that high-level RPGs represent in fantasy literature.
If you have to go to comic books to find something equivalent, you've gone too far afield. That isn't literature; no matter how hard you try to dress it up and pass it off as such.
There is no mainstream fantasy lit that typically represents the power level in "high level" D&D. I suppose you could point to the final books in the Wheel of Time series. (Well - I'll take your word for it. I gave up on Wheel of Time about book six). In any event, the subject under investigation in the Wheel of Time is an obscenely powerful demi-god who threatens to destroy the world - or defeat a god and his demonic sorcerors he holds in thrall.
The problem of "no literary basis" for high-level D&D has always been present in the gaming field. This is why people who don't like high-level D&D dismiss it as "four-color superhero" style gaming. (And yes, I'd be one of those people who dismiss it as being exactly that).
High-level D&D has always pretty much been a genre unto itself. That was true in 1st edition AD&D and remains true today.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Heracles would be high level, but he is special and different. He doesn't adventure with Merlin, Thor, Moses, Vishnu and Anansi.That'd be AWESOME! I wonder who the BBEG would be?
Amatsu-Mikaboshi apparently.
I'd say high level play is probably closest to Avengers/Fantastic Four level superheroes (with the exclusion of Thor).
High Level Fighter/Paladin = Captain America
High Level Rogue = Spiderman
High Level Ranger = Hawkeye
High Level Barbarian = She-Hulk
High Level Caster = Scarlet Witch (minus mega plot level antics like "No more mutant!") or Dr Strange (Tons of Powers, Big Brain)
While some effects are more realistic (even high level D&D characters can't lift 100+ Tons) they essential occupy the same ground.
That way you still have room for the solo brutes (The Hulk, Thor) and cosmic threats (Thanos,Galactus) that require team tactics to beat.
I'd hesitate to include the Big Three DC heroes as clearly Superman and Wonder Woman operate at a level of power that would probably be Epic (20+) and Batman is way way too variable in power level (Gotham Batman might be as low as a level 10 Rogue, Morrison Batgod is clearly Epic Rogue with Epic Plot Armor).
Heracles would be high level, but he is special and different. He doesn't adventure with Merlin, Thor, Moses, Vishnu and Anansi.That'd be AWESOME! I wonder who the BBEG would be?
You see, that's the other problem with most RPG campaigns. They would probably put them up against some random dragon with a bunch of low level henchmen.
Although, if you wanted an appropriate challenge, I'd probably pick:
Loki after being dipped in the river Styx mounted on the dragon from Beowulf. His familiar would be Cerberus, and he would yield the One Ring and Pandora's Box.
There is very, very little that high-level RPGs represent in fantasy literature.
If you have to go to comic books to find something equivalent, you've gone too far afield. That isn't literature; no matter how hard you try to dress it up and pass it off as such.
There is no mainstream fantasy lit that typically represents the power level in "high level" D&D. I suppose you could point to the final books in the Wheel of Time series. (Well - I'll take your word for it. I gave up on Wheel of Time about book six). In any event, the subject under investigation in the Wheel of Time is an obscenely powerful demi-god who threatens to destroy the world - or defeat a god and his demonic sorcerors he holds in thrall.
What constitutes mainstream fantasy lit to you? Specific authors? Popularity? If you said most instead of no I would agree with you. But to say absolutely no mainstream fantasy is in the high level play I believe is untrue.
I mean Steven Brust's Novels (The Taltos Series) are DEFINATELY in the realm of high level dnd play and serveral of them have hit best seller lists. Does that make them mainstream?
Also, what exactly is wrong with a fantasy novel who's subject is the defeat of a god or demonic sorcerors? High level play requires the scaling up of the scope and degree of the challenges to be met. You cant exclude a series (wheel of time) because it does what a story has to do in order to encompass the crazy versatile super beings that are high level characters.
Well, i could only think of one series you guys havent thought of, ever heard about Steven Eriksons,
Tale of the Malazans book of the fallen.
I could probably go on a big rant about it being one of the best books iwe ever read, but i think that would be off subject. Whats more to point is that although most chars in the novels is probably between lvl 3 and 5, the universe is still full of people that can literally move mountains and take on entire army's on their own. So what im saying is that the world, is probably the closest to the generic DnD world as you can get. (purely in the sense of the power level, the world is amazingly deep)
I mean Steven Brust's Novels (The Taltos Series) are DEFINATELY in the realm of high level dnd play and serveral of them have hit best seller lists.
I agree. The Dragaera novels are the best example of high-level play that I know of. In this setting, all but the basest of commoners can use telepathy or teleport themselves essentially at will. Resurrection is also commonplace; leading the main protagonist, an assassin, to require special preparations in his line of work. The usual solution; one of countless soul-destroying magic weapons acquired through the black market. Together with his high-level companions, the main protagonist often faces off against thugs, rival assassins, sorcerers, the undead, gods or goes plane hopping as the need arrises. One of my favourite line from the series: "I took out my enchanted dagger (a cheap, over-the-counter enchanted dagger, but better than plain steel), and began carefully drawing the diagrams and symbols that aren’t at all necessary for a teleport, but do help settle one’s mind down when one is feeling that one’s magic might not be all it ought to be."
Brust is an old D&D player and it shows in his excellent writing.
There is no mainstream fantasy lit that typically represents the power level in "high level" D&D. I suppose you could point to the final books in the Wheel of Time series. (Well - I'll take your word for it. I gave up on Wheel of Time about book six). In any event, the subject under investigation in the Wheel of Time is an obscenely powerful demi-god who threatens to destroy the world - or defeat a god and his demonic sorcerors he holds in thrall.
Well, that's a shame you gave up on it just as it was getting good. These books represent a level 1 - 20 game in many ways. The BBEGs
seem big n bad until the chracters in the book get to equal footing with them, and realize they are just powerful channelers like they have become, and not really to be feared. The dark one is a god? I don't think so...the books would be over before they started. The Dragon isn't a demi-god either, just a re-incarnated channeler who has to keep doing it over and over till he gets it right. He has no deific abilities at all (he can't even regrow an amputated limb). I find it humorous that you pass judgement so easily on a book series you didn't even get halfway through...and get it wrong, too.
Well, that's a shame you gave up on it just as it was getting good. These books represent a level 1 - 20 game in many ways. The BBEGs seem big n bad until the chracters in the book get to equal footing with them, and realize they are just powerful channelers like they have become, and not really to be feared.
Well, that's a shame you gave up on it just as it was getting good. These books represent a level 1 - 20 game in many ways. The BBEGs seem big n bad until the chracters in the book get to equal footing with them, and realize they are just powerful channelers like they have become, and not really to be feared.** spoiler omitted **
@kyrt-ryder:
Yeah, I can totaly see that. The guy who's taken over the writing for the last 3 books is much better, imho.
I'd say high level play is probably closest to Avengers/Fantastic Four level superheroes (with the exclusion of Thor).
High Level Fighter/Paladin = Captain America
High Level Rogue = Spiderman
High Level Ranger = Hawkeye
High Level Barbarian = She-Hulk
High Level Caster = Scarlet Witch (minus mega plot level antics like "No more mutant!") or Dr Strange (Tons of Powers, Big Brain)While some effects are more realistic (even high level D&D characters can't lift 100+ Tons) they essential occupy the same ground.
That way you still have room for the solo brutes (The Hulk, Thor) and cosmic threats (Thanos,Galactus) that require team tactics to beat.
I'd hesitate to include the Big Three DC heroes as clearly Superman and Wonder Woman operate at a level of power that would probably be Epic (20+) and Batman is way way too variable in power level (Gotham Batman might be as low as a level 10 Rogue, Morrison Batgod is clearly Epic Rogue with Epic Plot Armor).
This is awesome and insightful, IF you replace "high" in each case with "mid". Really, most marvel heroes can be handled with levels 8-12.
DC heroes tend to skew higher. Superman. Dr. Fate. The Green Lanterns. Batman is as close as we're going to get to a high-level Melee PC, but let's not even go there. But in general, with the DC characters you're far more likely to have reality-altering powers. Thor (though marvel) at his most powerful is a good example what a high level PC is like, in fact. Hulk, as he is often written lately an unstoppable monster, would be high-level.
Think E6, but level 20 is the ceiling, not level 6. If you don't know what E6 is, google "E6 RPG".You could check out the Taltos novels by steven brust. That is probably the most telling example of a fantasy novel/world that is well represented by high level dnd play. As it stands i think most fantasy is more E20 then D20.E20?
Thanks for the clarification - this:
http://e20system.com/index.html
Is what I think of with E20, and was surprised, as I didn't think it was out yet...
No one has mentioned Amber? I think that's possibly the best example of high-level characters in D&D terms.
** spoiler omitted **
You could work that angle, but then Book 2 gives us Rand whipping Ishamael, who's continually built up as being the strongest of the Forsaken.
(Granted, he has a bad way of not staying very dead.)
Still that doesn't feel like the power progression of a D&D campaign to me -- the Forsaken mostly seem on a pretty even keel of toughness and like clockwork, come near the end of a book, it's time for Rand to smoke another one.
No one has mentioned Amber? I think that's possibly the best example of high-level characters in D&D terms.
Amber's spellcasters are even more or less Vancian.
I'm not sure how you work the Pattern and the Logrus into a vaguely D&D-like framework or understanding, though.
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I am surprised that no one has pounced on the notion that Aragorn and Elric are mid level equivalents.
Tolkien may have created what is more of a low magic/dark age style world than most modern fantasy but Aragorn is certainly a high level ranger. He wields one of the few magic weapons in the books, he is an expert at the tracking/evading/survival stuff that rangers do, he can heal, he wins every fight he is in despite wearing little to no armor, and he can lead whole nations. The whole point to Aragorn is that while he doubts his worthiness, he is in fact the most "special" character in the story.
Elric is even easier. The last member of a great and powerful civilization. One of the most powerful spellcasters in the whole world. Bearer of a sword that can kill anything. In fact kills gods. I can't think of more high level that that.
I think Black Moon Chronicles are really a good example of how high-level D&D / Pathfinder could be transcripted into literature /comics. As far as I know the series was inspired by a AD&D2nd campaign....
I do not know how well known this series is in the US. In Europe it is standard fare for any fantasy fan.
EDIT:
I suspect its distribution in the US was greatly hampered by the fact that it has female nudity in almost every issue (as most french comics do...).
EDIT: I hadn't planned to comment on Elric, since I have no familiarity with the story, but that sword sounds more like an artifact handed to a character than a reference of the character's own power. Being 'the most powerful spellcaster in the world' doesn't technically mean anything in and of itself, I'd need to understand the relative strength of the setting's magic.
Well, let's see...
Elric can summon gods/demons to do his bidding, through either direct summoning or calling in favors. He can dimensional travel. He can make any number of potions/drugs. He's got a powerful ring of wizardry that basically doubles his extant magical powers, and a sentient, soul-sucking, life-giving sword that kills anything it touches and transfers that power to him.
I'd put him at a 7th level spellcaster, minimum, based on the power of spells he cast, coupled with a sword that makes him a ridiculously powerful berserker in melee combat, both keeping him alive and killing pretty much anything that comes with reach, friend or foe.
Yeah Ring of Kings and Stormbringer are pretty hefty magic items...
Stormbringer would have to be a +5 Souldrinker thats intelligent, and can incite rage and cast Vampiric Touch on foes hit in melee...
Ring of kings summons balors pretty much...iirc.
Well, i could only think of one series you guys havent thought of, ever heard about Steven Eriksons,
Tale of the Malazans book of the fallen.
I could probably go on a big rant about it being one of the best books iwe ever read, but i think that would be off subject. Whats more to point is that although most chars in the novels is probably between lvl 3 and 5, the universe is still full of people that can literally move mountains and take on entire army's on their own. So what im saying is that the world, is probably the closest to the generic DnD world as you can get. (purely in the sense of the power level, the world is amazingly deep)
The Malazan books are interesting because low level characters or even mid-level characters can interact with high level characters in a meaningful and even threatening way without risking immediate annihilation.
The problem with finding high level inspiration in literature is that for the most part D&D segregates heroes into various brackets because outside of that fairly narrow zone the encounters are far to easy or instant death.
For the most part most literature really isn't set up like that unless it's one of the many obvious novelizations of someone's D&D campaigns (there are more than a few of these - they even sell well). If the Malazan books were exclusively about Quick Ben kicking the asses of ascendants all the time then I would agree but it's generally 10% Quick Ben antics, 10% Fiddler doing soldiery stuff, 20% politics, 10% comedy, 20% big set piece battles, etc. Only a small percentage of the page count and yes it's a big big page count is equivalent to high level D&D stuff.
For the most part most literature really isn't set up like that unless it's one of the many obvious novelizations of someone's D&D campaigns (there are more than a few of these - they even sell well).
Out of curiousity, are you taking the position that Malazin is one of those, or isn't one of those? It's not completely clear to me.
(To me it really, really has that feel and that's jarring enough to put me off, but I can equally see how someone else would really like it.)
Another set of books...
Glen Cook's 'The Black Company' is a story of how a mercenary company with a lot of mooks, a few low-mid level fighters/rogues, and a couple of low-mid level spellcasters deal with their interactions with very high level full casters.
I'd probably put Silent and Goblin in the 4-7th level arcane caster range, Raven's maybe a 6th level fighter, and the Ten Who Were Taken are all 11th-17th level casters?