Strange thing, in my RotRL campaign, the monk is dominating over everyone else in most combats. Personally, I grew bored of monks after playing NWN for so many years, but the one in my group seems very able. He has complained about his AC not being as good as the paladin's AC, but it is only 3 points lower. He wanders about the battlefield avoiding AoO's picking and choosing whomever he wishes to fight.
Group mix,
Paladin
Rogue
Wizard
MonkWizard loves casting haste and the monk loves receiving it :)
I have a half-orc monk in my kingmaker group.
He took the bite racial variant. Then he took the half-orc bite feat.
So.
Right now. Its Kick, kick, bite, bite. XD
Maneuver Training: Why the hell isn't the monk a full BAB class anyway? Seriously you can keep the flurry progression the same and he could have a full BAB and it wouldn't even matter in the least.
Ki Pool: The ki pool is an interesting idea. But the whole overcoming DR thing is pathetic. Monks should just be able to overcome DR as long as they have a ki point left. That's right, all DR all the time.
Slow Fall: Falls just aren't lethal enough for this to matter in any way. Average damage for a 100 foot fall is 28-35. I'll be fine thanks. In fact at 10th level I should be able to fall 100 feet face first regularly and not even care.
Wholeness of Body: 7 hp for 2 ki points at 7th level??? 20 at 20th?? Useless
Purity of Body/Diamond Body: Not bad but not that great either. You would have made the save more often than not anyway.
Improved Evasion: see purity of body/diamond soul
Quivering Palm: meh...
Timeless Body: IMHO this is the most pointless ability in the game.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: AHA! the 17th level monk gets tongues! Surely this is as good as what the casters just got! HINT: It isn't
Empty Body: Only high level ability the monk gets that's any good.
Perfect Self: Not as perfect as you might think. In fact, best avoided as it is a waste of your level up.
Its a shame they fail so hard cause I think the monk is my favorite class next to bard.
Sorry to disappoint, but the errata prevents you from biting twice.He took the bite racial variant. Then he took the half-orc bite feat.
So.Right now. Its Kick, kick, bite, bite. XD
Well. He gets another feat then. XD No problem there really.
Maneuver Training: Why the hell isn't the monk a full BAB class anyway? Seriously you can keep the flurry progression the same and he could have a full BAB and it wouldn't even matter in the least.
Ki Pool: The ki pool is an interesting idea. But the whole overcoming DR thing is pathetic. Monks should just be able to overcome DR as long as they have a ki point left. That's right, all DR all the time.
Slow Fall: Falls just aren't lethal enough for this to matter in any way. Average damage for a 100 foot fall is 28-35. I'll be fine thanks. In fact at 10th level I should be able to fall 100 feet face first regularly and not even care.
Wholeness of Body: 7 hp for 2 ki points at 7th level??? 20 at 20th?? Useless
Purity of Body/Diamond Body: Not bad but not that great either. You would have made the save more often than not anyway.
Improved Evasion: see purity of body/diamond soul
Quivering Palm: meh...
Timeless Body: IMHO this is the most pointless ability in the game.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon: AHA! the 17th level monk gets tongues! Surely this is as good as what the casters just got! HINT: It isn't
Empty Body: Only high level ability the monk gets that's any good.
Perfect Self: Not as perfect as you might think. In fact, best avoided as it is a waste of your level up.
Its a shame they fail so hard cause I think the monk is my favorite class next to bard.
]
You don't have the advanced players guide, do you?
I must say, I am absolutely shocked that you all find the Monk class so weak. Right now, at level 4.. I have an AC of 26 against attacks of opportunity. If I have my nice potion buffs on, that becomes 32. Try hitting that. It doesn't happen. And, I find that the GM has to roll natural twenties to hit me. I play Society, so my character is a 20 point buy.
So.. can you really say that the Monk is weak? I am a better tank right now, than any other class. I believe that I have a better AC than other classes would at level ten.
Also..
I deal 2d8+10 damage per round, with +8 to hit.
If I want someone gone that turn, I burn a ki point, and do 3d8+15 damage.
There is no fricking way that you can tell me that the Monk is a weak class. I'm out damaging the group Barbarian.
So, I suppose it all depends on how you build your characters... But my Monk is looking like Bruce Lee right now.
Right now, at level 4.. I have an AC of 26 against attacks of opportunity.
So.. can you really say that the Monk is weak? I am a better tank right now, than any other class. I believe that I have a better AC than other classes would at level ten.
Also..I deal 2d8+10 damage per round, with +8 to hit.
On those numbers I see your strength is 20. Good choice. Care to show us your build? Also, I have actually stated going damage in this way is the means for a monk to be useful. It does not however, last.
I see Monks more of a disabler or distracter that a front-line fighter. They work great in taking out that nasty spell caster that's messing with your tanks or keeping your caster pinned down. My biggest contention with them is when you start getting out of the medium humanoid races. Hard to grapple a Fire Elemental/Stone Giant/WereBear. CMD was a much needed change but still just seems way to inadequate once you get out of the humanoid races. A ring of Freedom of Movement has become the one must have pieces of equipment every character I EVER make in PF will have. Could just be our GM though.
I digress on that and back to the monk. I really like the monk, being able to not depend on weapons and armor is a HUGE plus. Surprised in the middle of the night, no armor on and your axe is across the campsite? Heh, no problem I just need (or don't need) the shirt I slept in and I'm as good as I was when the group was awake and ready for a fight. Saves are awesome, BAB and # of attacks with flurry is sick, healing yourself is always nice. To me they're very situational and you can't go into playing a monk thinking you're gonna Bruce Lee everything and be the best fighter. You play a disabler and support. Play with the trip, disarm, grapple route and I think they become more fun.
+2
This is the route which I have taken with my monk. I have built a more Japanese flavored monk than the Chinese inspired monk that is presented in the PF rules.
On those numbers I see your strength is 20. Good choice. Care to show us your build? Also, I have actually stated going damage in this way is the means for a monk to be useful. It does not however, last.Right now, at level 4.. I have an AC of 26 against attacks of opportunity.
So.. can you really say that the Monk is weak? I am a better tank right now, than any other class. I believe that I have a better AC than other classes would at level ten.
Also..I deal 2d8+10 damage per round, with +8 to hit.
My Strength is actually only at 18. I have Brass Knuckles +1 equipped though... Which also frees up my Amulet Slot. :)
Str: 18+1=19 (+1 from the level four increase.)
Dex:14
Wis:14+2=16 (+2 from Headdress of Wis.)
Con:14
Int:9
Cha:7
HP:39
AC:18
Feats:
Deflect Arrows: I got this one to add to the invulnerability.
Dodge
Mobility
Toughness
Traits:
Expert Duelist:Gives +1 to AC while adjacent to only one opponent.
Deft Dodger
Weapon: Brass Knuckles+1 (These allow me to save a ton of money... No need for Amulet of Mighty Fists.) And, the reason that they work is this: They are a monk proficient weapon, and as such.. all of the weapons bonuses go to my unarmed damage.
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor, Headdress of Wisdom, Wand of Mage Armor
I have the rogue of the group use the wand on me. :)
I'm a Half Orc.. and, I have the Sacred Tattoo alternative racial trait, replacing the Orc Ferocity.. Because if I am "dead", and still a threatening target... I could possibly become dead-dead. And that's no fun. :D
Oh.. I forgot to add in my Saves. I have the following:
Fort:+7
Ref:+8
Will:+8
I love how a discussion revolving around balance in PFRPG is centered on an encounter that cannot take place in PFRPG- That being with a Beholder.
+1
In 3.5 Player's Handbook 2 in the back they had a Martial Artist which was made using equal amounts of fighter and monk levels.
This is my Martial Artist with uses a big sword. Think Cloud from FF7.
I like half fighter half monk. Human Fighter2/Monk4/Figher2 makes for a nice start.
Use Weapon Master Fighter and Basic Monk
Stats; str 17, Con 14, Dex 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7 Boost str then Dex
Traits; Armor Expert,Caretaker
Levels
1.Power Attack, Furious Focus, Step Up
2.WF (Great Sword)
3.Improved unarmed Strike, Dodge, Stunning Fist,Following Step
4.Evasion, Dodge
5.Fast movement, Still Mind, Mobility
6.Ki pool, Slow Fall 20, Vital Strike
7.Vital Strike
8.Step Up and Strike
Total Ranks skills
15 8 Acrobatics
14 8 Perception
12 4 Climb
12 4 Swim
14 4 Heal
11 4 Stealth
Cost Gear
10000 Belt of physical might +2
4000 Headband of inspired wisdom +2
8150 +2 Mithral Breastplate
8350 +1 Ki Focus Great Sword
1000 Cloak of resistance +1
Which leaves 500 gold for basic gear and Potions.
Character Stats
Stats; str 20, Con 16, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 7
HP 76 Initive +4 AC 23
Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +9
Great Sword Attack +15
Damage: 4d6+15 or 29 average; can use stunning with weapon.
Uses of Stunning Fist 5/day Fort DC 21
Ki Pool 5/day Can use to increase speed by 20ft for one round or boost AC by 4 for one round.
Sorry to disappoint, but the errata prevents you from biting twice.He took the bite racial variant. Then he took the half-orc bite feat.
So.Right now. Its Kick, kick, bite, bite. XD
Not to mention that the rules prevent you from mixing a bite attack with a flurry of blows.
A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
|
The APG does quite a lot good for the Monk, between the Brass Knuckles (finally, no more AoMF silliness), archetypes and feats such as Combat Patrol.
But still, the problem with the Monk lies in the very conceptual foundations of the class. The Paladin could (and is) be fixed, because the idea was fine, it's the execution that went south in 3.5.
The Monk on the other hand ... poor little Monk. What was the 3.5 team thinking ?
I'll go point by point again, but a lot of things don't work in dungeon crawls. If you are doing 20 by 20 rooms, you could argue wizards are doomed because big baddies can get to them in the first round of every combat.
From mid levels, wizards have the best defences in the party whenever they expect a serious fight. And will surprise all opponents without magic to counter them. At low levels, monsters aren't so good as be able to effortlessly get past a party member blocking a corridor. So you can argue, just not successfully.
But to the points.
1. AC
Wisdom is a primary, so you should have a +3 or +4,
So, DPS goes down the drain.
equal to a studded leather or chain shirt, depending. At 4th add +1 taking you either up to chain or scale mail, depending. At 8th you add another +1 taking you up to scale or more likely breastplate, as by now you really should have at least a +4 wisdom, maybe more if you have a wisdom adding item
So basically you admit that for at least half of its adventuring life, as defined by Paizo's APs, the monk is shafted AC-wise compared to just wearing armor, even if he drops a ton of points into Wisdom, thus shafting his offense.
And did I mention it's also your touch AC?
Touch AC is only meaningful when your basic AC is good enough for you to not die from standard attack routines (while retaining the level-appropriate offensive capacity).
2. Your hands are magic at 4th level, for free.
So? Everyone else gets this as a free addition to attack/damage bonuses they need anyway as well.
If you were to enhance two weapons for a TWF ranger, it would cost the same as enhancements for amulets of mighty fists.
Costing as much as something unfairly and cripplingly expensive does not make the amulet of mighty fists good.
4. You can't cast if you are stunned. You just stand there, stunned.
You can't stun if you died. You just lie there, dead. Now, a meaningful argument, please.
7. In my experience, having the highest saves in the game,
Can you back up your experience with an actual monk writeup?
plus improved evasion and a +2 against enchantments and all the immunities...pretty handy. Monks being MAD doesn't make other classes better able to put points into Con, Wis, and Dex...which are three areas the monk actually puts points into...
Nearly every other class is better able to put points in Con. Divine casters are better able to put points in Wis. And, as I see, you're still advocationg a pacifist monk, that cannot seriously hurt anyone. This is not viable in actual play.
Because most people try to play the Monk as a Fighter, when in truth they should be played more like a Thief.
The rogue's class-defining ability is being able to add serious bonus damage to every attack. The monk lacks anything like that.
|
And, as I see, you're still advocationg a pacifist monk, that cannot seriously hurt anyone. This is not viable in actual play.
The point system is working pretty well, let's continue.
1. I showed that the monk basically starts out with the equivalent of leather armor and ends up with the equivalent of plate mail. With no armor check penalty. Also, this is my Touch AC.
2. What game do you play where magic weapons are free?
6. Dead how? Rays are touch attacks, and monks have the highest saves in the game. You can't cast stunned. You just stand there, waiting to be hit.
7. Look in the players handbook. Look next to monk. Notice the saves are all high saves. Now look at the other classes...
Several people have posted builds, most recently a 4th level PFS approved build. Look at the builds. 'Nuff said.
The rogue's class-defining ability is being able to add serious bonus damage to every attack. The monk lacks anything like that.
Because most people try to play the Monk as a Fighter, when in truth they should be played more like a Thief.
To negate and at the same time confirm what you said, the main point of the rogue is 8 skill / level, IMHO. (I mean, SA is not the main thing of the rogue.. but nevertheless rogues have 4 skills/lvl more than monks).
Anyway, yeah, what I said above. One must play the monk thinking outside the box and not expecting the fighter output.
The point system is working pretty well, let's continue.
Why you won't show up the writeup, instead?
1. I showed that the monk basically starts out with the equivalent of leather armor and ends up with the equivalent of plate mail.
So, you shown, that the monk starts with a very subpar armor and does not catch up until halfway in the career. By further sacrificing his offense. You know, the fighter can easily break away again just by using a shield. But he won't, because he goes around swinging his two-hander. You need both defense and offense to be viable, sacrificing the latter means your character becomes Uncatchable Joe.
With no armor check penalty. Also, this is my Touch AC.
Touch AC, again, is nice, but does not make a character viable by itself.
2. What game do you play where magic weapons are free?
Any iteration of post 3.0 DnD. Don't be intentionally obtuse.
6. Dead how?
Stunned how?
7. Look in the players handbook. Look next to monk. Notice the saves are all high saves. Now look at the other classes...
And try to read what I wrote. High base saves by themselves do not result in high saves. You also need high key attributes (prevented by MAD)
Several people have posted builds, most recently a 4th level PFS approved build.
That build, without outside help, has AC of only 14, and so can just barely overcome its probably most common level-approrpiate opponent, an ogre (assuming the ogre stays vanilla, which is not entirely fair). As about his saves, a dryad has a 45% chance of getting a SoL through (and he does only 4.5 damage per hit to her, so unless the combat starts at point blank range, he needs three rounds to beat her down).
And assuming he's in the party now, and gets outside help to buff his AC to the stated value, he's must contend with CR 4 creatures as his equals. Like, a griffon. He's still - after everything - sits right on the threshold of being level-appropriate, so he is a good character, but I don't see any way for him to continue sitting there as the party gains levels, unless through efforts of other PCs.
2. What game do you play where magic weapons are free?
He didn't say magic weapons are free -- I believe he meant that bypassing DR X/magic is a free bonus for people who have magic weapons (i.e. pretty much everyone who wants one can have one by level 4).
The rogue's class-defining ability is being able to add serious bonus damage to every attack. The monk lacks anything like that.
Because most people try to play the Monk as a Fighter, when in truth they should be played more like a Thief.
I see a lot "corner case" logic in your posts (wizards with rat familiars are a reason why all wizards have high fort saves?) so lets do some numbers, shall we?
At the DPR olympics the rogue, jack B. Nimble had a 15.90 DPR while making a regular attack and a 45.65 DPR while sneak attacking which we all know takes some maneuvering to get done and sometimes is not viable because of the space available. An additional attack adds 4.68 DPR to Jack's damage. Jack is also a TWF rogue, FYI.
Melvin 1.1.2 had a 38.67 DPR while making a regular flurry, and a 50.88 DPR while spending a Ki on an extra attack. His AC was 22. He did not have brass knuckles or Medusa's fist. An extra attack (from haste/medusa's fist/speed enchantment) would grant him an additional 12.21 DPR.
Now those numbers do not compare to a fighters numbers. Fred the Falchion fighter's DPR is 59.25 all day long, but then I hope that helps combat the stereotype that fighters are weak and don't get nice things.
Mind you this is also a snapshot at 10th level. Fred just got his second iterative attack, which at -10 to hit, doesn't hit often, but it still kicks his numbers up a tad.
Monks are not an easy class to work right, so that adds to their rep as a bad class. AMiB's first monk Melvin 1.0, did as much DPR as a fighter (53.63 flurry, 69.72 with ki), but had such a low AC he would not survive a round of theoretical combat. Many people go the opposite route and build such a defensive character that they deem to not be able to do anything in combat but avoid damage. Its a very fiddly class, but Treantmonk's guide (which I suggest to anyone who is making a monk) I think has proven that they do have place in the party and that they can be wildly successful, as the half orc above demonstrates.
I'm not sure whether it has been mentioned in this thread, but one of the main reasons for all the "monk hate" isn't about DPR or comparisons to the other classes, it's about the inflexibility of the archetype. The spectrum of characters one wants to build with the Monk is pretty huge (mystical martial arts), but the mechanics are centered about one pretty narrow aspect of it (the enlightenment-seeking Shaoling monk). And neither multi-classing with Fighter nor one of the options that the APG offer are that much better…
What the monk desperately needs is some diversity beyond its feat selection. Actually, eliminate the bonus feats entirely and roll them in with some system similar to the rogue talents. Power more of them with ki points.
There's two problems with this approach, though: First, it's a big departure from the D&D monk, both 3E and its AD&D "grand lotus master of the four dragon winds" origin. If I remember correctly, this was the main reason why the PF monks still looks like it does now, with only minor adjustments.
Second, it'd a friggin' nightmare to balance. If a player would hand me rules like this in a 3rd party PDF ("Beyond Monks, PF editon"), I'd be very suspicious as a DM.
Monks don't fit the 4E pushed "Role" model. They aren't a "tank"
Which is probably why they aren't tanks in 4e
|
Ghost monks and Zen Archers go a long way to fulling the difference in damage, but are still behind. They cannot, and should not, keep up.
Instead, they have great saves, and a few good "neat tricks". Now, being able to stay alive (amazing saves) never looks as good on paper; but works better as a character.
The other aspect, weapons being cheap and easy to enhance, fists sucking on damage low-to-mid levels and being too expensive to enhance, have been taken care of by the new kits.
So I think they are closer, certainly more fun, and better rounded than their fighter counterparts now. But they are NOT going to look as good on paper, are not as good front lie fighters, so will continue to be hated on the "screw play" forums :).
|
|
2. What game do you play where magic weapons are free?He didn't say magic weapons are free -- I believe he meant that bypassing DR X/magic is a free bonus for people who have magic weapons (i.e. pretty much everyone who wants one can have one by level 4).
Yes, but a monk has one, for free. Brass knuckles take care of material DR, and they are at not more disadvantage to the rest as any other class.
But having your hands be magic weapons for free is different from having a magic weapon you bought or aquired. That gold can be spent elsewhere.
Yes, but a monk has one, for free.
A monk has a free +1 (or greater) enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage? What book is this from?
|
|
I'm not sure whether it has been mentioned in this thread, but one of the main reasons for all the "monk hate" isn't about DPR or comparisons to the other classes, it's about the inflexibility of the archetype. The spectrum of characters one wants to build with the Monk is pretty huge (mystical martial arts), but the mechanics are centered about one pretty narrow aspect of it (the enlightenment-seeking Shaoling monk). And neither multi-classing with Fighter nor one of the options that the APG offer are that much better…
What the monk desperately needs is some diversity beyond its feat selection. Actually, eliminate the bonus feats entirely and roll them in with some system similar to the rogue talents. Power more of them with ki points.
There's two problems with this approach, though: First, it's a big departure from the D&D monk, both 3E and its AD&D "grand lotus master of the four dragon winds" origin. If I remember correctly, this was the main reason why the PF monks still looks like it does now, with only minor adjustments.
Second, it'd a friggin' nightmare to balan. If a player would hand me rules like this in a 3rd party PDF ("Beyond Monks, PF editon"), I'd be very suspicious as a DM.
This is very fair, and part of why I think people are pushing for a ninja class. Hopefully this can also be somewhat addressed with variants in the upcoming oriential setting.
Brass knuckles is a monk weapon that scales with the monk's unarmed damage and costs the same as any other weapon to enhance. So instead for paying 5000 for +1, 20000 for +2 and so on, you are paying 2000 for +1, 8000 for +2 and 18000 for +3 just like any other class, and this works for all of your flurry attacks. It becomes way for feasable for a monk to catch up to a fighter with damage when he can match the fighter for wealth in the offense department.
Is he going to be a good as a fighter, no. Will he suck at dpr if he is flurring and has decent strenght+brass knuckles ( like a fighter with high strenght and a weapon with enchantment) so it's almost comparable, no... he'll be ok at dpr now.
|
|
Yes, but a monk has one, for free.A monk has a free +1 (or greater) enhancement bonus to attack rolls and damage? What book is this from?
Yes and no. Masterwork brass knuckles give the +1 to attack, the 1d8 bump at 4th gives an average of +1 to damage.
All of which is still magic for DR purposes.
Less tha a magic weapon, but it isn't like they can't make those knuckles magic for the automatic +1 to damage, but let's say for these purposes you don't.
You also have evasion, two bonus feats, 1O extra movement and a +1 AC bump at that level that was also overlooked above, 4 stunning fist a day, with a save dc going to be 15 or higher, depending on your wisdom score.
And this is spending nothing on magic items.when you have 6k of wealth by level.
Monks aren't awful they just aren't that great.
Further because they are some weird hybrid with big weaknesses they actually can't function well as either a fighter replacement (Monks suck at tanking) or as a rogue replacement (not enough skill points, cannot afford to take int) which means that they typically fail in average sized groups.
In my experience they work best in groups of 5-6 where the primary classes can take the tank and skill monkey "roles" and the monk can function as a highly mobile striker.
The problem is that monks are stuck in 2 modes: blitz + combat maneuver or DPR flurries. Further those modes are largely incompatible.
The monk rocks vs low-to-mid-level humanoid casters because he can generally use his speed and acrobatics to bypass the caster's meatshields and stunlock or grapple the caster. Later on once freedom of movement become more common and/or casters are often big monsters this tactic becomes less useful.
The DPR monk is okay but it's expensive to maintain a decent AC and actually do decent DPR against mid-to-high-level opposition. In most situations a plate armor fighter is a better character for engaging in a melee beatdown.
I think 90% of the problems with the monk could be solved if they could get a pounce like attack at the same rate that the mobile fighter does. Being able to full attack + speed rush would make the monk a very powerful skirmisher which seems to be the unfulfilled promise of the class.
The problem as I see it is that out side of Full Casters mixing classes works out great or at least it has for me. Looking at post about tiers the fighter is about 4 because he does only one thing very well, the monk is tier 4 or lower because they do a lot of things ok but are not really good at any thing. By mixing the two you get a class that is at least tier 3 most likely on the high end of things.
The monk dipping into fighter works great if you are willing to wear light armor. By Wearing armor you loss flurry, and that increase to base movement speed and armor. A mithral breastplate is light armor and gives a +6 to AC. You can still use your ki to give you a boost to your speed for a short time. Go armor will fix some of the MAD with the monk. A 14 in wis, con and dex starting off will do fine and str as your main stat.
str 17, con 14, dex 15, int 10, wis 14, cha 7
Boost str at level 4 and dex at level 8 then make the rest of your boost wis.
As for the lack of skill points with only a 10 in int, you human or/and take an extra skill point for monk being your favored class. You can get by with only puting max ranks in Perception and Acrobatics and one or ranks in things like swim and climb. With a +2 or better from stats in most skills and +3 for class skills that have at least one rank in them. So a +6 for spending just one skill point.
The reason that the monk should go with armor is that the monk class bonus to AC needs to start at +2 or +3 in order to keep up with classes that wear armor. The monk needs a way to fix their AC problem. The best ways that I can see of doing this is go with armor or use the spell mage armor. The best way to get both is to dip into a class that has them. A two level dip into wizard with just 12 int will give you mage armor 3 times a day and one other spell.
So the monk works fine after you find away around it's AC problem.
Well, I'm not an optimizing guru but I'll have a go.
Lvl 4 human monk, 25 point buy
STR 16
DEX 20
CON 10
INT 7
WIS 16
CHA 7
Finesse, Power attack, Dodge, Focus:unarmed.
Flurry
+8/+8 : D8 + 3
/ power attack
+6/+6 : D8 + 7
AC 20 or 24 with pretty easy to get Mage Armor.
Pretty decent if compared to sword and boarder in full plate moving 20ft AC at 22 hitting +9 : D8+5? Adding feats a fighter will hit better but monks mobility is unquestionably superior.
Monks aren't awful they just aren't that great.
Further because they are some weird hybrid with big weaknesses they actually can't function well as either a fighter replacement (Monks suck at tanking) or as a rogue replacement (not enough skill points, cannot afford to take int) which means that they typically fail in average sized groups.
In my experience they work best in groups of 5-6 where the primary classes can take the tank and skill monkey "roles" and the monk can function as a highly mobile striker.
The problem is that monks are stuck in 2 modes: blitz + combat maneuver or DPR flurries. Further those modes are largely incompatible.
The monk rocks vs low-to-mid-level humanoid casters because he can generally use his speed and acrobatics to bypass the caster's meatshields and stunlock or grapple the caster. Later on once freedom of movement become more common and/or casters are often big monsters this tactic becomes less useful.
The DPR monk is okay but it's expensive to maintain a decent AC and actually do decent DPR against mid-to-high-level opposition. In most situations a plate armor fighter is a better character for engaging in a melee beatdown.
I think 90% of the problems with the monk could be solved if they could get a pounce like attack at the same rate that the mobile fighter does. Being able to full attack + speed rush would make the monk a very powerful skirmisher which seems to be the unfulfilled promise of the class.
Yeah. About that. Ehm... "Monks suck at tanking". No, they don't. :) Also, the monk gets Spring Attack. So...
Let me explain myself.
My monk has 32 AC against Attacks of Opportunity. And I can get it higher. This is at level four. He's a better tank, as I said above... than any other class. And I believe that this will last until level 12, where Pathfinder Society caps out.
Also, Monks get a fricking teleport. They can get to any target in one turn. >.< I'll be in combat before anyone else, so how does the need for a full action matter? I'll do more damage on average than most other people because of the number of attacks I'm putting out.
A monk at level 12 does over two hundred damage on average per round. :)
I think that's pretty nice.
My monk has 32 AC against Attacks of Opportunity. And I can get it higher. This is at level four. He's a better tank, as I said above... than any other class. And I believe that this will last until level 12, where Pathfinder Society caps out.
Also, Monks get a fricking teleport. They can get to any target in one turn. >.< I'll be in combat before anyone else, so how does the need for a full action matter? I'll do more damage on average than most other people because of the number of attacks I'm putting out.
A monk at level 12 does over two hundred damage on average per round. :)
Out of curiosity, let's see the numbers, ability scores, and so forth. Is his AC only that high while he's moving? Is his AC always that high? Does his AC get completely hosed if someone tosses a dispel magic his way (which rapes potion buffs)? Does it require the wizard to cast mage armor on him? Does it require the druid to cast barkskin on him? Does it require a lot of money in bracers of armor (64,000 gp for a +8 armor bonus, vs the +9 the full plate fighter gets for 1,500 gp?).
Can you benefit from reach effectively? What's your combat maneuver bonus? How are you dealing 200 damage per round? Is that assuming all attacks hit? How well do those attacks hit vs enemies who aren't naked (naked in terms of no buffs or similar)? What do you do when you don't have many places to move?
I know monks can be played well, so I'm just curious as to most of these things. That's all.
Just a few points about monks:
1. If you roll for character creation (as a lot of groups do), rather than point buy, the MAD vs. SAD ditinction becomes less of a point. Of course, you still need to roll well to think of playing a monk. This kind of echoes the old 1st edition monk, which had to have 3 or 4 high scores as a prerequisite to even create a monk, making it and paladin the most difficult classes to roll up.
2. If you are trying to play the monk as a frontline fighter-substitute, you can, but that's not really optimal. Consequently, I think they are more useful in larger parties rather than the standard 4 PC-party. Our group, which has seven players, has always played them as fast scouts and complementary flanking fighters, and that seems to work very well.
3. Much of the monk-hate comes from people who play very specific styles. They are generally either a) optimizers or b) play a game that is very heavily combat-oriented, or c) both. If you consider more than just combat, which people rarely do on these boards, a monk has a lot of utility.
4. Speed kills. I love the tactical flexibility the monk's mobility adds to a group. I understand that a mobile fighter with the right magic can do some of the same things, as can some animal companions. However, the monk does them out of innate power and the fighter has to spend money and feats to do them. As for the animal companion, well, one of my pet peeves with druid/ranger players and the DMs who run them is that they frequently forget to take into account the limited intelligence of the animal companion, and the limited communication between the druid/ranger and the companion. It simply is not capable of complex tactical manuevers, and cannot follow complex commands. Too many people seem to handwave that and treat the animal companuion as just as smart and tactically savvy as a PC.
5. I like the fact that the monk's speed gives me additional options on whether I want to decline or accept combat, and whether I want to permit the enemy to do the same. It's axiomatic in military strategy that the force with the greatest mobility can frequently determine if, when, and where a combat takes place.
Yeah. About that. Ehm... "Monks suck at tanking". No, they don't. :) Also, the monk gets Spring Attack. So...Let me explain myself.
My monk has 32 AC against Attacks of Opportunity. And I can get it higher. This is at level four. He's a better tank, as I said above... than any other class. And I believe that this will last until level 12, where Pathfinder Society caps out.
Also, Monks get a fricking teleport. They can get to any target in one turn. >.< I'll be in combat before anyone else, so how does the need for a full action matter? I'll do more damage on average than most other people because of the number of attacks I'm putting out.
A monk at level 12 does over two hundred damage on average per round. :)
I think that's pretty nice.
Yeah, you're going to have to back those numbers up with some sort of a build because honestly you seem to have produced numbers well in excess of those generated in the DPR olympics.
100 DPR at 12 (assuming 15 point build)might be doable but likely requires a full attack action and probably haste. 200 seems improbable at best.
Further those DPR numbers? That requires a full attack which means you aren't moving. Spring Attack? It's okay if you are kiting a tough foe but being stuck doing a single attack with a temple sword or unarmed strike isn't that great.
For the most part it's better to do a stunning fist blitz on the first action and then stay base to base so that you can do a full attack the next round. The problem is that you are often outpacing your allies and are vulnerable to the enemy ganging up on you (assuming multiple opponents).
I have shown you my build above, so you can look at that if you want to see.
I'll also tell you that I always have the Mage Armor spell cast on me, with a wand by the party rogue.
So.. this is where my AC jumps:
Base AC:18
W/ Mage Armor:22
With Shield potion:26
With Shield of Faith potion: 28
28 AC, with 32 AC against attacks of Opportunity.
The 200 dpr at level 12 isn't olympic at all.
It assumes that only 3/4ths of the attacks hit, and that they do half damage to be fair.
That's if none of the hits crit. It gets even more disgusting when they do.
The 200 dpr is reached when you are level twelve, and half a few good items. I looked over the items, and enchants.. And saw that if you get two 1d6 magic damage enchants on brass knuckles... then you are doing an addition 2d6 with every attack.
Now, allow me to show you what will make me attack so many times..
A level twelve monk will attack five times with flurry of blows.
Then, you have Medusa's Wrath.. Which gives me two additional attack with the flurry of blows.
So far we have seven attacks with flurry..
Then Vital Strike... so, it's as if you had eight.
THEN, you burn a ki point.. and you have Nine attacks.
A level twelve monk is attacking for 2d6 per attack.
Then, you add in the enchantments that you have..
4d6 per attack...
You have nine attacks, so that's 36d6.
Your damage, when assuming an STR bonus of +6 at that level, or so..
Comes out to be a bit above 150 damage. This number can change quite a bit though, because it assumes that the d6 rolls are getting 3.5 damage on average.
These numbers are not even showing how much damage it would be, if I had the Robe of the Monk.. which makes the damage come out to be 200 damage, I'm sure.
First of all, no vital strike on fullattacks.
Second, the Ac is not that high:
Fghter in fullplate with Greatsword
Base AC
Full plate 19
With Shield potion:23
With Shield of Faith potion: 25
18 Dex: 29
+3 magic: 32
Fullattack with a Greatsword:
3 Attacks
2d6
+1,5 * Str (say 22 Str) = 9
+2 Weaponspez
+2 Weapon training
+4 magic
+2 Greater Weaponspez
+12 Powerattack
=2d6+31
6d6+93
That is with no haste or crits
And his chance to hit is way higher than a monks.
First of all, no vital strike on fullattacks.
Second, the Ac is not that high:
Fghter in fullplate with Greatsword
Base AC
Full plate 19
With Shield potion:23
With Shield of Faith potion: 25
18 Dex: 29
+3 magic: 32Fullattack with a Greatsword:
3 Attacks
2d6
+1,5 * Str (say 22 Str) = 9
+2 Weaponspez
+2 Weapon training
+4 magic
+2 Greater Weaponspez
+12 Powerattack
=2d6+316d6+93
That is with no haste or crits
And his chance to hit is way higher than a monks.
Where does it say that Vital Strike cannot be used on a full attack action? Cause it doesn't.
Also, my numbers assume that there were no crits.
The Monk's damage is clearly superior, because he has more attacks, and in this case.. Quantity over Quality.
With the Robes of the Monk, my damage at level twelve would be pushed to 2d8, instead of 2d6.
That boosts the average damage to about 180.
Then, your point about the AC is pretty weak.. because you're wearing Full Plate, and I'm wearing no plate. No nothing.
What happens when you need to make a climb check? a swim check? acrobatics?
If you were in the ocean, there would be no saves to swim.. because you would simply drown.
Just because your AC totals out to 32, doesn't mean that you survive as well as the Monk.. So the 32 AC, without any armor on.. Is Amazing.
|
First of all, no vital strike on fullattacks.
Second, the Ac is not that high:
Fghter in fullplate with Greatsword
Base AC
Full plate 19
With Shield potion:23
With Shield of Faith potion: 25
18 Dex: 29
+3 magic: 32Fullattack with a Greatsword:
3 Attacks
2d6
+1,5 * Str (say 22 Str) = 9
+2 Weaponspez
+2 Weapon training
+4 magic
+2 Greater Weaponspez
+12 Powerattack
=2d6+316d6+93
That is with no haste or crits
And his chance to hit is way higher than a monks.
Where does it say that Vital Strike cannot be used on a full attack action? Cause it doesn't.
Also, my numbers assume that there were no crits.
The Monk's damage is clearly superior, because he has more attacks, and in this case.. Quantity over Quality.
With the Robes of the Monk, my damage at level twelve would be pushed to 2d8, instead of 2d6.
That boosts the average damage to about 180.
Then, your point about the AC is pretty weak.. because you're wearing Full Plate, and I'm wearing no plate. No nothing.
What happens when you need to make a climb check? a swim check? acrobatics?
If you were in the ocean, there would be no saves to swim.. because you would simply drown.
Just because your AC totals out to 32, doesn't mean that you survive as well as the Monk.. So the 32 AC, without any armor on.. Is Amazing.
While I admire your spirit, you can be assured- you cannot use Vital Strike on a full attack.
I have shown you my build above, so you can look at that if you want to see.
I'll also tell you that I always have the Mage Armor spell cast on me, with a wand by the party rogue.
"Okay, give me mage armor."
[the rogue rolls a 1]"I rolled a 1. I can't use this wand for the rest of the day."
"What? Take ten."
"I can't take ten. Sorry."
-----
With Shield potion:26
A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate
the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of
less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures.
....
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target.
Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
Shield
School abjuration [force]; Level sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
----
With Shield of Faith potion: 28
So, for one minute you have +2 deflection to AC for 50 gold, and it costs two actions to reapply it if combat runs more than 1m or if someone removes it with a dispel magic.
So closer to....
24 AC, with 28 AC against attacks of Opportunity.
Now, allow me to show you what will make me attack so many times..A level twelve monk will attack five times with flurry of blows.
Yeah. +10/+10/+5/+5/+1.
Then, you have Medusa's Wrath.. Which gives me two additional attack with the flurry of blows.
Yeah... Keep reading that feat. These
bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed,paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe.
So you have to either go first and surprise your enemy (one move action to get up during surprise, win initiative during the real round and use a full attack action) or you have to stunning fist your enemy. Your DC at 12 is 10+1/2lvl+Wis, so likely... 20. Unless you get a +6 headband of wisdom by 12, looks like you'll have 18 at maximum.
So far we have seven attacks with flurry..
If you stun, yes.
Then Vital Strike... so, it's as if you had eight.
*facepalm*
You should read the feats you talk about.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make
one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals
additional damage.
One attack as a standard action = +damage dice again. You can't combine vital strike with a full attack action. Well, you could. But you'd still make one attack.
THEN, you burn a ki point.. and you have Nine attacks.
5+2+1 so one off like I pointed out
A level twelve monk is attacking for 2d6 per attack.
Hopefully he's using a monk's robe and it's actually 2d8 per attack.
Then, you add in the enchantments that you have..4d6 per attack...
Okay. 2d8+2d6.
You have eight attacks, so that's 16d8+16d6.
Not bad.
The problem is that your attacks are +17/+17/+12/+12/+7 and most targets have an AC of 27 or higher at level 12. Assuming that most of these attacks hit is a big stretch for the 12/12/7 portion of this attack routine. A ki point and optimal surprise round conditions or a failed stunning fist pushes your damage up, but the problem is that you're assuming you roll spectacularly against even CR targets to do that kind of damage in a round, or that they're not immune to your energy damage, or that it doesn't have DR that you could pierce with your hands and have to not use your brass knuckles for.
Well, if you want to compare the Ac of a monk to an unarmored fighter i insist on your monk wearing leather armor.
Also, the fullplate only has a ACP of -2, so i guess with 22 Str and only a single skillpoint in swim i can easy take 10 and swim/climb/tumble away.
When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
Also, i too did not assume i will crit.
And to do my damage my enemy doesn´t have to be stuned and i have to waste no resources like your ki-point.Also, the problem with Quantity over Quality is that against an appropriate foe you only hit with about one half to one third of your attacks.
I believe that, as you say, all the Monk hate stems from the fact that Monks suck. Be that as it may, if I were going to bother to actually investigate the class, one thing I would look at would be Movement. I would look at really playing that up.
Problem with speed is, everyone can buy some Winged Boots or get some other sources of flying (like a mage-buddy or an magic carpet or a flying mount) and zap around with 40-60ft three dimensional movement.
Magic items really steal the monks thunder here...
Problem with speed is, everyone can buy some Winged Boots or get some other sources of flying (like a mage-buddy or an magic carpet or a flying mount) and zap around with 40-60ft three dimensional movement.
Magic items really steal the monks thunder here...
And yet without them, monks are completely useless. Funny, isn't it?
It's never fail. When someone starts tossing around high numbers, talking about why monks are the best tanks and such, then asking for the proof is always enough to hang them with. His AC was drastically lower than he claimed, he was breaking several rules, and pretty much describing the most ideal situation for his character (against a flat-footed, low armor class foe, with no resistances).
Problem with speed is, everyone can buy some Winged Boots or get some other sources of flying (like a mage-buddy or an magic carpet or a flying mount) and zap around with 40-60ft three dimensional movement.
Magic items really steal the monks thunder here...
Sure, I get that. At low-levels though, when magic items are less prevalent, it could be a fun card to play. That's all I'm saying.
And yet without [magic items], monks are completely useless. Funny, isn't it?
I wouldn't go that far, but I will say that Monks absolutely NEED some kind of vehicle for getting past DR. Wraps, whatever you want to call it, they need something so that their best attacks retain effectiveness.
Well, if you want to compare the Ac of a monk to an unarmored fighter i insist on your monk wearing leather armor.
Also, the fullplate only has a ACP of -2, so i guess with 22 Str and only a single skillpoint in swim i can easy take 10 and swim/climb/tumble away.
Psh. Sash of the war champion gives you armor training 4, and gloves of dueling just increase your weapon training by 2. The sash is 4,000, and the gloves are 15,000.
Monk has a 24, like I calculated up above. But he's also level 12, so his AC is closer to 27 because of his monk's robe and monk AC bonus. Also he's level 12. He has a +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of deflection. Maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone. So, 31.
A fighter is level 12, has +3 full plate, +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of deflection. 10+12+3+3. A 3 Dex mod gives him a 31. And a dusty rose prism ioun stone gives him 32.
Fighter runs full speed in the full plate, and his ACP is -1. Since he's level 12, like 3 ranks in Swim gives him a +12 so a +11. He has to roll a 9 to swim in his full plate in stormy water-- or just, you know, take a 10 since he can.
His attack routine is something like 12+6+2+3+5 for +28/+23/+18. Power attacking, +26/+19/+14. 2d6+33.
We're also just kind of comparing "what-if" scenarios. I don't think a monk could afford a +4 headband of wisdom, a +2 belt of dexterity, two +3 weapons, a monk's robe, a dusty rose prism ioun stone, +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of deflection. Nor could a fighter afford what I put out. So, it's kind of a moot point.
And yet without [magic items], monks are completely useless. Funny, isn't it?I wouldn't go that far, but I will say that Monks absolutely NEED some kind of vehicle for getting past DR. Wraps, whatever you want to call it, they need something so that their best attacks retain effectiveness.
Not that I'm advocating a low-magic campaign in the least, but consider this my friend Loaba!
If you have a fighter, a monk, and a bard, and tell them to try and be better on a budget, what kinds of options do they have?
The fighter can sport a +10 armor class from full plate + armored kilt before adding in his dexterity, so he's got AC 20 without adding a shield or dexteirty. He can grab a pole arm for reach, some spiked gauntlets or armor spikes while in a grapple, he can sport more strength, have a higher +hit/+dmg than the monk. He could even grab a shield with shield spikes and enjoy a sweet 24 + dex armor class before buffs while losing less offense. The fighter could also drop the shield and draw a greatsword or 2-handed pole arm as part of a move action and begin carving his name into the hide of some big-nasty. Likewise, in masterwork armor and with a few skill points, the fighter's armor training, and a few skill points the fighter couldn't care less about that check penalty. He can even carry a bow and make shweet ranged attacks.
The bard sports a 14 AC from a chain shirt before Dexterity. He can wield a longsword or a pair of short-swords (beating the monk's initial damage), or a bow (shweet ranged attacks). He can cast spells that make him harder to hit (mirror image, blurr), or make him stronger (heroism!), or use Bardic Music to get some +X bonuses to his attacks and damage, without ever actually touching magic items.
The monk will need an 18 dex, and 18 wisdom and can't match the fighter with +0 dex in AC. The Bard could match the monk in his chain shirt with an 18 dex, or a 14 dex and Cat's Grace. The bard can also wear a buckler if he wants and get another +1 shield bonus to AC.
So the monk also begins with a d6 unarmed strike, and monk weapons suck. He doesn't have a reach weapon either. He needs buffs (like mage armor) to compare, and magic item that grants +8 armor (to rival the fighter) costs some 64,000 gp. Meanwhile, other bonuses like deflection, natural, and insight apply equally well to the fighter and bard who are just chillin'.
Opening magic items to everyone lets the monk try to catch up, but then also makes the fighter and bard better as well; offering them more options beyond their physical limitations.
Both the Fighter and the Bard would be useful, and they really do nothing but compliment each other in a party. The monk however would be a drain on resources to just be viable, since he's gotta chug a potion of mage-armor every hour on the hour in an adventure, or require the wizard to burn a 1st level spell slot on him every day to just avoid him getting slaughtered with those kobolds and orcs decide to end him.
See what I mean, Ioba? ^_^;;
Winged Boots/Wings of Flying are nice and should definitely show up sooner or later but they are moderately expensive and that means that the fighter types are allocating resources that should nominally be spent on the core buff items.
In theory the monk can operate longer without require resource expenditure for a permanent item or a casting of fly or overland flight. In addition for dungeon crawling the monk can generally hit targets in most indoor spaces with an acrobatics (high jump) check. Move action + high jump check + grapple action should be enough to pull most of those pesky flying mages out of the air. Spider Step + Cloud Step allow you to do crazy wire-fu action (although honestly 2 feats to do this seems a bit much).
Monk could be simplified dramatically if they just went to full BAB and gave them the mobility fighter features (rapid attack at 11th and whirlwind blitz at 20th). That would allow them to spam their monk attacks while still being dangerous flankers.