And yet without [magic items], monks are completely useless. Funny, isn't it?I wouldn't go that far, but I will say that Monks absolutely NEED some kind of vehicle for getting past DR. Wraps, whatever you want to call it, they need something so that their best attacks retain effectiveness.Not that I'm advocating a low-magic campaign in the least, but consider this my friend Loaba!
If you have a fighter, a monk, and a bard, and tell them to try and be better on a budget, what kinds of options do they have?
The fighter can sport a +10 armor class from full plate + armored kilt before adding in his dexterity, so he's got AC 20 without adding a shield or dexteirty. He can grab a pole arm for reach, some spiked gauntlets or armor spikes while in a grapple, he can sport more strength, have a higher +hit/+dmg than the monk. He could even grab a shield with shield spikes and enjoy a sweet 24 + dex armor class before buffs while losing less offense. The fighter could also drop the shield and draw a greatsword or 2-handed pole arm as part of a move action and begin carving his name into the hide of some big-nasty. Likewise, in masterwork armor and with a few skill points, the fighter's armor training, and a few skill points the fighter couldn't care less about that check penalty. He can even carry a bow and make shweet ranged attacks.
The bard sports a 14 AC from a chain shirt before Dexterity. He can wield a longsword or a pair of short-swords (beating the monk's initial damage), or a bow (shweet ranged attacks). He can cast spells that make him harder to hit (mirror image, blurr), or make him stronger (heroism!), or use Bardic Music to get some +X bonuses to his attacks and damage, without ever actually touching magic items.
The monk will need an 18 dex, and 18 wisdom and can't match the fighter with +0 dex in AC. The Bard could match the monk in his chain shirt with an 18 dex, or a 14 dex and Cat's Grace. The bard can also wear a buckler if he wants and...
See, I was trying to be all positive and stuff, and then you had to go and be all optimal. Poor Monk, I wanted to like you...
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Well, if you want to compare the Ac of a monk to an unarmored fighter i insist on your monk wearing leather armor.
Also, the fullplate only has a ACP of -2, so i guess with 22 Str and only a single skillpoint in swim i can easy take 10 and swim/climb/tumble away.
Psh. Sash of the war champion gives you armor training 4, and gloves of dueling just increase your weapon training by 2. The sash is 4,000, and the gloves are 15,000.
Monk has a 24, like I calculated up above. But he's also level 12, so his AC is closer to 27 because of his monk's robe and monk AC bonus. Also he's level 12. He has a +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of deflection. Maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone. So, 31.
A fighter is level 12, has +3 full plate, +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of deflection. 10+12+3+3. A 3 Dex mod gives him a 31. And a dusty rose prism ioun stone gives him 32.
Fighter runs full speed in the full plate, and his ACP is -1. Since he's level 12, like 3 ranks in Swim gives him a +12 so a +11. He has to roll a 9 to swim in his full plate in stormy water-- or just, you know, take a 10 since he can.
His attack routine is something like 12+6+2+3+5 for +28/+23/+18. Power attacking, +26/+19/+14. 2d6+33.
We're also just kind of comparing "what-if" scenarios. I don't think a monk could afford a +4 headband of wisdom, a +2 belt of dexterity, two +3 weapons, a monk's robe, a dusty rose prism ioun stone, +3 amulet of natural armor and a +3 ring of deflection. Nor could a fighter afford what I put out. So, it's kind of a moot point.
I think you make a good point, so I want to break down a real build with real gold at the level mentioned.
Let’s look at a realistic Level 12 build with a 16 wisdom, 14 Dex and 16 Strength. All very reasonable with even a 15 point built if you dump Charisma and Int, more so with other builds
Without anything, I’ve got an AC of 18 (+3 Wisdom, +3 Monk, +2 Dex)
Level 12 is 108,000 gold. I’m going to want a headband of inspired wisdom, as it gives me both AC, Ki Points, and DC on stunning fist. +4 is 16k, so I’m down to 92k but my AC is now 20, and my stunning fist save DC is 21 (10+ 1/2 level + wisdom) which is pretty good since a low fort save at 12th is only a +4.
I can get +3 Bracers of Armor for 9,000, taking me down to 83k but up to 23 (touch 20). I could spend more, but I could also buy a ring of protection +2 for 8K to take me up to 25 (touch 22) with 75K left. Monk robe gives me some nice bonuses, so I’ll take that for 13k along with the extra point of AC I am up to 26 (touch 23) with 62K left. I would like to get both my strength and Dexterity up, so I’ll go ahead and get the belt of Physical perfection +2. My AC is now up to to 27 (touch 24) and I have 46K left.
Here I am torn, I can get an amulet of natural armor +2 for 8L and take my AC up to 29, or I can get an Amulet of Mighty fists for 5K and get a +1 to hit and Damage….
I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24, with 46k of gold left over to get some magical brass knuckles or other magic helpers. I also got my Wisdom up to 20 and my strength to 18 in the process. To be fair I would likely get a +3 Cloak of resistance for 9k, so I would now only have 35K left for the etc portion of the build. But that would make my saves 12 fort (12 con) a 14 reflex and 16 will save, Immune to poison and disease, and able to dimension door as a move action.
And this isn’t counting the 4 bonus feats I have in addition to the 6 I would have for being 12th level.
So how do you want to spend the last 35K?
So how do you want to spend the last 35K?
By getting a +3 brass knuckles so I overcome DR silver and cold iron for 18k, Alex. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#damage-reduction . I might forgo the AMF in favor of this, freeing up a tad more coin. Not that every other class dosent get this option mind you in regards to thier favorite weapon.It's just where I think the spending is most effective.
I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24
A CR 12 monster* has a +21 to hit. Getting hit on a six is not good. A boss fight which is normally APL + 3 or 4 has a +24 and +26 to hit respectively.
*CR 12 is about the average level of what you will be fighting if it is a single monster. Even if the DM uses 2 CR 10's they have a +18 to hit. That means a monster 2 levels below your APL hits you with less than a 10.
I wasn't breaking any rules, none at all. I read the Vital Strike feat, and it no where says that I cannot use it in a full attack action.
Plus, if you're wearing full plate, I'm quite sure that no matter what your swim skill is, you drown. Try swimming in a full suit of armor. I don't care if you're Chuck Norris. It won't happen.
I wasn't breaking any rules, none at all. I read the Vital Strike feat, and it no where says that I cannot use it in a full attack action.
Vital Strike (Combat)
You make a single attack that deals significantly more damage than normal.
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon’s damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision-based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.
If your group wants to allow vital strike to function in conjunction with full attacks then go ahead but the RAW and RAI are pretty clear and have been clarified ad infinitum.
Currently Vital Strike is a somewhat substandard feat that gives warriors unable to full attack in a given round the option of boosting their solo attack.
While I think most of us would like Vital Strike to be more useful or scale better it's pretty clear how it's supposed to be used.
I wasn't breaking any rules, none at all. I read the Vital Strike feat, and it no where says that I cannot use it in a full attack action.
Plus, if you're wearing full plate, I'm quite sure that no matter what your swim skill is, you drown. Try swimming in a full suit of armor. I don't care if you're Chuck Norris. It won't happen.
The rule says vital strike is used with an attack action. An attack action takes up a standard action.
If it said vital strike could be used with an attack you might have a leg to stand on.PRD:When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage.
Thanks for clearing this up for me, I didn't understand at first.
And for the record, I never used Vital Strike in a full attack action, because I'm only level four. I was just trying to in vision what I would be like, at level twelve.
I think that a lot of the rules are pretty confusing.. That's why I'm glad to have these boards to be corrected.
I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24A CR 12 monster* has a +21 to hit. Getting hit on a six is not good. A boss fight which is normally APL + 3 or 4 has a +24 and +26 to hit respectively.
*CR 12 is about the average level of what you will be fighting if it is a single monster. Even if the DM uses 2 CR 10's they have a +18 to hit. That means a monster 2 levels below your APL hits you with less than a 10.
Sure, but the BSF has that problem as well. This is where party buffs/debuffs come in to help them both. Mind you this also means that to keep pace with the fighter, the monk is spending his Ki points on AC (functioning as a similar boost to the fighter's shield), but hey, he can.
The problem I see here is that most people are describing things as absolutes when we all know that actual gameplay is more fluid.
When you take out all the special situations, and trick scenarios the monks does about the same damage as any TWF build, as long as he is built to be in melee, which is to say, with strength as a primary stat. HIs AC starts out like light armor, builds to medium at mid levels, and ends somewhere around heavy armor assuming that he buffs his wisdom a bit. He gets awesome mobility build-in, and bunch of bonus feats, and some pretty decent immunities, including what is essentially immunity to blasting spells.
If there was one thing I would change, it would be to just give him a full BAB when using unarmed attacks/monk weapons period, so that there is more viability for skirmishing.
Thanks for clearing this up for me, I didn't understand at first.
And for the record, I never used Vital Strike in a full attack action, because I'm only level four. I was just trying to in vision what I would be like, at level twelve.
I think that a lot of the rules are pretty confusing.. That's why I'm glad to have these boards to be corrected.
Then why are you so vehemently argumentative about it?
Also, yeah, for the record, in a world where people throw fireballs, dragons fly around, and magical beasties pork humans so you get sorcerers, yes, an 8th level fighter can indeed swim in full-plate armor.
I was told by a DM in a Pathfinder Society game that if the Fighter in fullplate were to fall off of the boat, that he wouldn't get a chance to save. He would just die.
I was told by a DM in a Pathfinder Society game that if the Fighter in fullplate were to fall off of the boat, that he wouldn't get a chance to save. He would just die.
I don't give a crap. That means your GM is cheating.
EDIT: To put it a bit more eloquently, we're discussing the rules here, and monks. The fact of the matter is an 8th level fighter is probably sporting an 18, 20, or better strength. If he's bothered, he's sporting a +11 swim modifier from ranks alone. So that's +15-16 right there. That means even in Full Plate (-6 check penalty) he's got a +10 to swim, and that's before factoring in armor training or masterwork armor, which would mean it's more like +12.
Sorry, but D&D heroes do crazy stuff all the time.
EDIT 2: Likewise, I openly question your GMs validity and credentials to be a GM for a public game like that if he's ignoring so many rules and likewise handicapping the fighter and his armor training. He or she is not fit to be a GM in a publicly run game where everyone is expected to adhere to the rules.
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I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24A CR 12 monster* has a +21 to hit. Getting hit on a six is not good. A boss fight which is normally APL + 3 or 4 has a +24 and +26 to hit respectively.
*CR 12 is about the average level of what you will be fighting if it is a single monster. Even if the DM uses 2 CR 10's they have a +18 to hit. That means a monster 2 levels below your APL hits you with less than a 10.
A CR 12 Creature who is Melee focused has a primary (as in first)attack of 21.
A more important note would be that a CR 12 creature has a 27 AC, which is what the Monk has here. Also, if you are counting Stunning fist as the primary ability DC, the Save AC is 21, which is also consistent with the chart.
It is admittedly going to be way below hit points, but I haven't added any of the 10 feats yet, and I do have 35K left to spend.
What AC should I be aiming for, IYHO?
I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24A CR 12 monster* has a +21 to hit. Getting hit on a six is not good. A boss fight which is normally APL + 3 or 4 has a +24 and +26 to hit respectively.
*CR 12 is about the average level of what you will be fighting if it is a single monster. Even if the DM uses 2 CR 10's they have a +18 to hit. That means a monster 2 levels below your APL hits you with less than a 10.
Sure, but the BSF has that problem as well. This is where party buffs/debuffs come in to help them both. Mind you this also means that to keep pace with the fighter, the monk is spending his Ki points on AC (functioning as a similar boost to the fighter's shield), but hey, he can.
The problem I see here is that most people are describing things as absolutes when we all know that actual gameplay is more fluid.
When you take out all the special situations, and trick scenarios the monks does about the same damage as any TWF build, as long as he is built to be in melee, which is to say, with strength as a primary stat. HIs AC starts out like light armor, builds to medium at mid levels, and ends somewhere around heavy armor assuming that he buffs his wisdom a bit. He gets awesome mobility build-in, and bunch of bonus feats, and some pretty decent immunities, including what is essentially immunity to blasting spells.
If there was one thing I would change, it would be to just give him a full BAB when using unarmed attacks/monk weapons period, so that there is more viability for skirmishing.
I am not saying the there are any party members that don't benefit from party buffs. What I am saying is that his monk would most likely die if it stayed up front. The issue with the monk is that it does not bring anything to the party, most of the time.
The monk is good at CMB stuff, and in a humanoid based game it will do well, but monsters are not affected as much.The monk is a good scout, and a second perception roll is always helpful, but a 2nd [most likely any other class] will be more helpful than a monk as a 6th party member.
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What is this "MAD" you speak of?Monks are only really sub-par DPR when you are playing in a group with fully optimized fighters, druids, and paladins.
They are quite MAD but to mean...
Multiple Ability Distribution, meaning that they have to spread their ability score points over several stats. In the case of the monk they have more than any other class, being that they have to have decent wisdom, and strength at the least, dex and con for survivability, and int if they want to do some of the better combat maneuvers. They really get stuck.
I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24A CR 12 monster* has a +21 to hit. Getting hit on a six is not good. A boss fight which is normally APL + 3 or 4 has a +24 and +26 to hit respectively.
*CR 12 is about the average level of what you will be fighting if it is a single monster. Even if the DM uses 2 CR 10's they have a +18 to hit. That means a monster 2 levels below your APL hits you with less than a 10.
A CR 12 Creature who is Melee focused has a primary (as in first)attack of 21.
A more important note would be that a CR 12 creature has a 27 AC, which is what the Monk has here. Also, if you are counting Stunning fist as the primary ability DC, the Save AC is 21, which is also consistent with the chart.
It is admittedly going to be way below hit points, but I haven't added any of the 10 feats yet, and I do have 35K left to spend.
What AC should I be aiming for, IYHO?
As a thumb of rule I try for 20+character level. That at least means APL=CR monsters will miss most of the time. I expect for the boss guy to hit me, *but getting beat up by mooks* is not something I like to see.
*I am assuming the DM does not have a night of 15+ all night. I have been a victim of those, and I have had those nights as a DM, but they are rare.
Warning: The post below is facetious and intentionally inciteful. You have been warned. :-)
Here's an idea.
If you don't like monks don't play them or put them down, and let others enjoy the experience of playing one of the most unique classes in the game.
That might seem like a simplistic argument, but raving on for hundreds of words about optimized builds, AC differences, dps calculations and the like is just boring and doesn't actually solve anything!
This is where games like WOW have ruined pen & paper rpgs. By bringing in this sort of technical mumbojumbo into a game where it shouldn't belong. It's probably why the designers don't indulge in these conversations.
Now, is the monk the weakest class in the game? Possibly yes. But it is also one of the damned sexiest, and when you get it right and show-up the paladin or fighter in your group you can push out your chest and feel proud to be a monk.
Warning: The post below is facetious and intentionally inciteful. You have been warned. :-)
Here's an idea.
If you don't like monks don't play them or put them down, and let others enjoy the experience of playing one of the most unique classes in the game.
That might seem like a simplistic argument, but raving on for hundreds of words about optimized builds, AC differences, dps calculations and the like is just boring and doesn't actually solve anything!
This is where games like WOW have ruined pen & paper rpgs. By bringing in this sort of technical mumbojumbo into a game where it shouldn't belong. It's probably why the designers don't indulge in these conversations.
Now, is the monk the weakest class in the game? Possibly yes. But it is also one of the damned sexiest, and when you get it right and show-up the paladin or fighter in your group you can push out your chest and feel proud to be a monk.
A warning does not excuse rudeness<--Written before I read your post.
Telling the truth about a class is not wrong, as long as the poster is not being a jerk.
As to whether it is boring is a matter of opinion, and it does solve things, sometimes.
Video Games did not ruin Pen and Paper. I am so tired of that argument. The games is heavily based on math, so there had to be some mathematical calculati
I like the monk concept, but I won't be disillusioned enough to think I won't be putting extra work in if I expect to make it work.<--This is how a lot of people feel.
TL,DR
I'm not worried about mechanics, DPS, or any other roll-play.
My hate of the monk burns with the fiery intensity of a thousand nuclear bombs because of flavor.
That's it, I said it!
Why does my martial artist has to automatically be a MONK? Even amongst all the PrCs and Archetypes there very few that don't assume you came froma temple somewhere. Monks are great at maneuvers, can I play a street fighter that comes up with a way of fighting that involves locks and holds? NO because I'm a MONK. I can be monk that likes street fighting and invented a new way of fighting. But that's not what I want OK? So if I want to make a unarmed combatant that is not in anyway related to the spirituality of a monastery I have to play a Fighter and be awful at unarmed fighting. Gee, thanks. How about the alignment? can I be a Chaotic Drunken Master with just enough discipline to train a little? How about a Chaotic guy that is a genius at punching people and doesn't really trains? No, because I'm a lawful monk that came from a monastery.
The only class that restricts you so much is the paladin and any concept that you want of a knight who is not holy can be done with the fighter or now with the cavalier. [/End Rant]
*Cleamning froth from my mouth* So does that answers your question?
Warning: The post below is facetious and intentionally inciteful. You have been warned. :-)
Here's an idea.
If you don't like monks don't play them or put them down, and let others enjoy the experience of playing one of the most unique classes in the game.
That might seem like a simplistic argument, but raving on for hundreds of words about optimized builds, AC differences, dps calculations and the like is just boring and doesn't actually solve anything!
This is where games like WOW have ruined pen & paper rpgs. By bringing in this sort of technical mumbojumbo into a game where it shouldn't belong. It's probably why the designers don't indulge in these conversations.
Now, is the monk the weakest class in the game? Possibly yes. But it is also one of the damned sexiest, and when you get it right and show-up the paladin or fighter in your group you can push out your chest and feel proud to be a monk.
A warning does not excuse rudeness<--Written before I read your post.
Telling the truth about a class is not wrong, as long as the poster is not being a jerk.
As to whether it is boring is a matter of opinion, and it does solve things, sometimes.
Video Games did not ruin Pen and Paper. I am so tired of that argument. The games is heavily based on math, so there had to be some mathematical calculati
I like the monk concept, but I won't be disillusioned enough to think I won't be putting extra work in if I expect to make it work.<--This is how a lot of people feel.
Sorry about that. I realized that it needed a warning, but obviously didn't get it in soon enough. Remember though, that my post was partially facetious so should have been taken with a gram of salt and a shot of tequila. Also, I was not technically being rude to a specific person like you are.
Arguing about a class is fine, but when the argument spirals in endless circles and the designers simply nod their heads and move on you know that you're arguments aren't really making an impact. And the reason is that for everyone who hates monks, someone love them flaws and all. Regardless of how you change the class you end up alienating someone. That's just the way it is so why bother? ;-)
Okay, now that I have probably ruffled your feathers again let me continue.
Videa games certainly have influenced pen & paper rpgs negatively. I personally know of at least two people who stopped playing pen & paper rpgs because of them. If that's not negative I don't know what is. And as for the math side of things you are correct. However, its importance has been exacerbated by video games like WOW (which introduced terms like dps into character builds for D&D and Pathfinder).
of course, that all belongs on another thread since this thread is about why monks suck or don't suck.
They don't.
TL,DR
I'm not worried about mechanics, DPS, or any other roll-play.
My hate of the monk burns with the fiery intensity of a thousand nuclear bombs because of flavor.
That's it, I said it!
Why does my martial artist has to automatically be a MONK? Even amongst all the PrCs and Archetypes there very few that don't assume you came froma temple somewhere. Monks are great at maneuvers, can I play a street fighter that comes up with a way of fighting that involves locks and holds? NO because I'm a MONK. I can be monk that likes street fighting and invented a new way of fighting. But that's not what I want OK? So if I want to make a unarmed combatant that is not in anyway related to the spirituality of a monastery I have to play a Fighter and be awful at unarmed fighting. Gee, thanks. How about the alignment? can I be a Chaotic Drunken Master with just enough discipline to train a little? How about a Chaotic guy that is a genius at punching people and doesn't really trains? No, because I'm a lawful monk that came from a monastery.
The only class that restricts you so much is the paladin and any concept that you want of a knight who is not holy can be done with the fighter or now with the cavalier. [/End Rant]*Cleamning froth from my mouth* So does that answers your question?
If it makes you feel any better Mercenario, back on the 3.5 CharOp boards, they pretty much determined that the 3.5 Fighter could out unarmed fight the 3.5 Monk. To my knowledge, not a whole lot has changed in that regard in Pathfinder.
As a Fighter in Pathfinder you can get +5/+5 to your unarmed strikes via Weapon Training, +2/+4 from specialization, wear +5 gauntlets which let you overcome damage reductions and get some extra attacks off. Likewise, feel free to wear some armor spikes or spiked gauntlets which receive the same +5/+5 from weapon training, as do spiked shields if you want some heavier AC. If you want, you can carry a 2 handed sword or pole-arm and also take Two-Weapon Fighting and similar to attack with a 2 hander while making off-hand unarmed strike or armor spike attacks.
Alternatively, rogues make great ninjas. ^.^
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I could go on, but basically I just got the monk up to AC 27, touch 24A CR 12 monster* has a +21 to hit. Getting hit on a six is not good. A boss fight which is normally APL + 3 or 4 has a +24 and +26 to hit respectively.
*CR 12 is about the average level of what you will be fighting if it is a single monster. Even if the DM uses 2 CR 10's they have a +18 to hit. That means a monster 2 levels below your APL hits you with less than a 10.
A CR 12 Creature who is Melee focused has a primary (as in first)attack of 21.
A more important note would be that a CR 12 creature has a 27 AC, which is what the Monk has here. Also, if you are counting Stunning fist as the primary ability DC, the Save AC is 21, which is also consistent with the chart.
It is admittedly going to be way below hit points, but I haven't added any of the 10 feats yet, and I do have 35K left to spend.
What AC should I be aiming for, IYHO?
As a thumb of rule I try for 20+character level. That at least means APL=CR monsters will miss most of the time. I expect for the boss guy to hit me, *but getting beat up by mooks* is not something I like to see.
*I am assuming the DM does not have a night of 15+ all night. I have been a victim of those, and I have had those nights as a DM, but they are rare.
With 35K and some feats I can get there. I don't know if I would personally set 32 as a goal, but it's reachable. Take Dodge for +1, and drop 8k for Amulet of natural armor +2 and that gets you to 30 without to much pain. The last two point could come by bumping any combination of the ring, bracers, and amulet, but that really wouldn't be worth it to me.
The Wisdom plus the monk bonus (+5 and +4) work out to the same as Full Plate, so I don't see how anyone can argue the monk is under armored at this level vs any other class.
Looking back I actually would probably spend the extra 6k to get the belt of physical perfection to add in a Con bonus, so make having 29K left.
Sorry about that. I realized that it needed a warning, but obviously didn't get it in soon enough. Remember though, that my post was partially facetious so should have been taken with a gram of salt and a shot of tequila. Also, I was not technically being rude to a specific person like you are.
1.How was I rude?
2.I did not see your post as rude, but I put my disclaimer at the top because many posters will try to use such a header like you did as an excuse to be rude. While I did not agree with your ideals I did not find them to be troll like in nature.Regardless of how you change the class you end up alienating someone. That's just the way it is so why bother? ;-)
No matter what you say or how you say it someone will be upset. You might as well tell them the truth. Pretending like a problem does not exist does not make it go away.
Video games certainly have influenced pen & paper rpgs negatively. I personally know of at least two people who stopped playing pen & paper rpgs because of them. If that's not negative I don't know what is. And as for the math side of things you are correct. However, its importance has been exacerbated by video games like WOW (which introduced terms like dps into character builds for D&D and Pathfinder).
Two people. I have seen people stop WoW to play pen and paper since the limit is normally your imagination. The difference between now and 1st edition is that in our world communication, mostly due to the internet allows munchkins(not all optimizers are munchkins) to spread the word. I have seen posters who played 1st edition talk about really powerful character builds. You don't even need to do the math to figure out how to do the builds. I was doing pretty well before Tejon's calculator was created.*
*It is on these boards in the DPR thread.
As to whether or not they suck is a matter of opinion which depends on many things, mostly controlled by the DM.
To get back on track. I think the monk is what I call a "paper trap". It looks a lot better on paper than it plays. That does not mean it can't be played, but it takes a skilled player or a lenient DM to make it work.
stuff about 32 AC
Well it also depends on how you plan to play the class. If you plan to stay on the front lines I think you need it. If you don't plan to be taking a full round of attacks then you can probably get away with a lesser AC. I assumed you planned on using FoB.
DPR has been around for a while, it was just never as big a focus. With so many core classes competing for the same space, ability to deal damage becomes a major way of differentiating them and finding out what they are 'best' at.
With Superior Unarmed Strike, a Fighter is easily capable of out damaging a monk. With the Adaptive Weapon feature that lets you apply feat benefits to any weapon instead of just 1, Superior Armed Strike Greatswords for 6-36 dmg are possible, too.
==Aelryinth
With 35K and some feats I can get there. I don't know if I would personally set 32 as a goal, but it's reachable. Take Dodge for +1, and drop 8k for Amulet of natural armor +2 and that gets you to 30 without to much pain. The last two point could come by bumping any combination of the ring, bracers, and amulet, but that really wouldn't be worth it to me.
The Wisdom plus the monk bonus (+5 and +4) work out to the same as Full Plate, so I don't see how anyone can argue the monk is under armored at this level vs any other class.
Looking back I actually would probably spend the extra 6k to get the belt of physical perfection to add in a Con bonus, so make having 29K left.
10 Base.
+12 AC, +2 full plate w/ armored kilt.+3 AC, +2 buckler.
+4 AC, +4 Dexterity (includes cat's grace)
+1 AC, amulet of natural armor.
+1 AC, ring of protection
+1 AC, dodge
AC 32 Assuming a Dex of 14 and a 2nd level buff. About 16,300 gp. We'll grab a continual protection from evil on our armor for another 4,000 gp to help deal with mind control and summoned monsters, and perhaps 5/day grease spell on the armor for another 2000 gp so we can grease ourselves if we need to escape a grapple we can't win for some reason.
We'll use the rest of the money on weapons and wondrous items.
*ponders*
DPR has been around for a while, it was just never as big a focus. With so many core classes competing for the same space, ability to deal damage becomes a major way of differentiating them and finding out what they are 'best' at.
With Superior Unarmed Strike, a Fighter is easily capable of out damaging a monk. With the Adaptive Weapon feature that lets you apply feat benefits to any weapon instead of just 1, Superior Armed Strike Greatswords for 6-36 dmg are possible, too.
==Aelryinth
Ooooh. O.O
Are those 3.5 feats, or something recently released?
Sorry about that. I realized that it needed a warning, but obviously didn't get it in soon enough. Remember though, that my post was partially facetious so should have been taken with a gram of salt and a shot of tequila. Also, I was not technically being rude to a specific person like you are.
1.How was I rude?
2.I did not see your post as rude, but I put my disclaimer at the top because many posters will try to use such a header like you did as an excuse to be rude. While I did not agree with your ideals I did not find them to be troll like in nature.Regardless of how you change the class you end up alienating someone. That's just the way it is so why bother? ;-)No matter what you say or how you say it someone will be upset. You might as well tell them the truth. Pretending like a problem does not exist does not make it go away.
Video games certainly have influenced pen & paper rpgs negatively. I personally know of at least two people who stopped playing pen & paper rpgs because of them. If that's not negative I don't know what is. And as for the math side of things you are correct. However, its importance has been exacerbated by video games like WOW (which introduced terms like dps into character builds for D&D and Pathfinder).Two people. I have seen people stop WoW to play pen and paper since the limit is normally your imagination. The difference between now and 1st edition is that in our world communication, mostly due to the internet allows munchkins(not all optimizers are munchkins) to spread the word. I have seen posters who played 1st edition talk about really powerful character builds. You don't even need to do the math to figure out how to do the builds. I was doing pretty well before Tejon's calculator was created.*
*It is on these boards in the DPR thread.
As to whether or not they suck is a matter of opinion which depends on many things, mostly controlled by the DM.
To get back on track. I think the monk is what...
This is one of those circumstances when two people are slightly misinterpreting one another because they're not face to face and being able to see the little winks and gestures that makes it all better.
By the way, I don't disagree with you when it comes to pen & paper rpgs and computer games like WOW. I just think the negativity exists even if it is unintentional or a two-way street.
Now let us not argue again. :-)
As for the monk being ineffective or weak in comparison to fighters and other martial characters? I've more than said so to my friends, since it's backed up by substantial evidence (that has been thrown out ad-nauseum elsewhere). Of course, that little element called fun is always the one that is never taken into account when playing a monk, and I simply love playing my 14th level Eberron monk (Pathfinder rules not 4e). In comparison wih some of the other characters in the campaign he's a damned champion.
Now what about those alchemist and barbarian classes? They're just pathetic and boring if I do so say myself.
Joking! Joking!
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To get back on track. I think the monk is what I call a "paper trap". It looks a lot better on paper than it plays. That does not mean it can't be played, but it takes a skilled player or a lenient DM to make it work.
I would agree it takes a skilled player, but I've found just the opposite in the "Paper Trap" sense.
Monks are 2nd only to the fighter in number of feats, and they get several fairly powerful feats without having to have the prerequisites. Like I said, at 12th level I have 10 feats, in addition to all the class skills.
That, combined with your class abilities mean that as a monk you can do a lot of different things in a given encounter, and if you aren't experienced or skilled you may not take advantage of the synergies well, or you may make poor choices with regards to feats.
When I first started playing a monk, I got frustrated because I wasn't as effective at hack and slash as front line fighters. But as I learned the game and learned battlefield management and the value of saves and resistances, I realized how useful a monk could be to the party as a whole and how adaptable the class and it's abilities could be in so many different situations.
No other class is as effective at getting in and out of trouble behind enemy lines and throwing the enemies attack/defense plans into complete chaos.
But it isn't a beginner class, as you really have to understand how valuable it is to prevent melees from getting full round attacks on your casters, while also being able to stun their casters, while completely neutering disease and poison based monsters.
To get back on track. I think the monk is what I call a "paper trap". It looks a lot better on paper than it plays. That does not mean it can't be played, but it takes a skilled player or a lenient DM to make it work.
I would agree it takes a skilled player, but I've found just the opposite in the "Paper Trap" sense.
Monks are 2nd only to the fighter in number of feats, and they get several fairly powerful feats without having to have the prerequisites. Like I said, at 12th level I have 10 feats, in addition to all the class skills.
That, combined with your class abilities mean that as a monk you can do a lot of different things in a given encounter, and if you aren't experienced or skilled you may not take advantage of the synergies well, or you may make poor choices with regards to feats.
When I first started playing a monk, I got frustrated because I wasn't as effective at hack and slash as front line fighters. But as I learned the game and learned battlefield management and the value of saves and resistances, I realized how useful a monk could be to the party as a whole and how adaptable the class and it's abilities could be in so many different situations.
No other class is as effective at getting in and out of trouble behind enemy lines and throwing the enemies attack/defense plans into complete chaos.
But it isn't a beginner class, as you really have to understand how valuable it is to prevent melees from getting full round attacks on your casters, while also being able to stun their casters, while completely neutering disease and poison based monsters.
I'll buy that. ^_^
DPR has been around for a while, it was just never as big a focus. With so many core classes competing for the same space, ability to deal damage becomes a major way of differentiating them and finding out what they are 'best' at.
With Superior Unarmed Strike, a Fighter is easily capable of out damaging a monk. With the Adaptive Weapon feature that lets you apply feat benefits to any weapon instead of just 1, Superior Armed Strike Greatswords for 6-36 dmg are possible, too.
==Aelryinth
Ooooh. O.O
Are those 3.5 feats, or something recently released?
Book of 9 Swords has Superior Unarmed Strike. The Sword enhancement is from the same book. It was made so that you could apply weapon focus/spec feats to multiple weapons, buuuuuut the writer forgot there's a ton of feats that apply to specific weapons. It got completely ridiculous with dual-wielding heavy crossbows with rules meant for hand crossbows...
Superior Armed Strike actually makes perfect sense, however. Look at any serious martial art movie, and NONE of them proclaim the superiority of fist over sword. When the enemy has a weapon, you grab one, too. Same applies to movies, cartoons...UA is an accessory, something you use so you don't draw a weapon.
Of course, when you use the Heavy Greatsword while Enlarged, and are suddenly doing 12-72 dmg a swing, the DM is apt to get a mite angry at you...or really enjoy doing it back at you.
===Aelryinth
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Well it also depends on how you plan to play the class. If you plan to stay on the front lines I think you need it. If you don't plan to be taking a full round of attacks then you can probably get away with a lesser AC. I assumed you planned on using FoB.stuff about 32 AC
Depends on what I am fighting and who is in my party.
Some parties it is nice to get spring attack (or Shuriken with deadly aim) and just keep annoying big baddie by making him move and only get one attack while keeping him off my casters while they take him out.
Some parties I want a bunch of acrobatic/bonus to AC vs AoO feats so I can get into flanking position for my rogue buddy to deal big damage.
Some parties I want to move up and grapple and trip so my fighter and barbarian buddies can beat him up while he is down/held.
Some parties I just move in to soak the AoO using my AC bonuses and fast movement, so that the path is clear for everyone else to move in safely.
More than most classes, the build depends on who else is in your party.
Flurry is awesome. It's the primary way the monk does damage when fighting something he thinks that he has the advantage going toe to toe with, like a caster.
But a monk isn't a fighter, and should be using his mobility when dealing with something melee focused.
Think Sugar Ray Leonard vs Marvin Hagler.
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With 35K and some feats I can get there. I don't know if I would personally set 32 as a goal, but it's reachable. Take Dodge for +1, and drop 8k for Amulet of natural armor +2 and that gets you to 30 without to much pain. The last two point could come by bumping any combination of the ring, bracers, and amulet, but that really wouldn't be worth it to me.
The Wisdom plus the monk bonus (+5 and +4) work out to the same as Full Plate, so I don't see how anyone can argue the monk is under armored at this level vs any other class.
Looking back I actually would probably spend the extra 6k to get the belt of physical perfection to add in a Con bonus, so make having 29K left.
10 Base.
+12 AC, +2 full plate w/ armored kilt.
+3 AC, +2 buckler.
+4 AC, +4 Dexterity (includes cat's grace)
+1 AC, amulet of natural armor.
+1 AC, ring of protection
+1 AC, dodgeAC 32 Assuming a Dex of 14 and a 2nd level buff. About 16,300 gp. We'll grab a continual protection from evil on our armor for another 4,000 gp to help deal with mind control and summoned monsters, and perhaps 5/day grease spell on the armor for another 2000 gp so we can grease ourselves if we need to escape a grapple we can't win for some reason.
We'll use the rest of the money on weapons and wondrous items.
*ponders*
Armored Kilt doesn't stack with heavy armor.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/armored-kilt
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I was told by a DM in a Pathfinder Society game that if the Fighter in fullplate were to fall off of the boat, that he wouldn't get a chance to save. He would just die.I don't give a crap. That means your GM is cheating.
EDIT: To put it a bit more eloquently, we're discussing the rules here, and monks. The fact of the matter is an 8th level fighter is probably sporting an 18, 20, or better strength. If he's bothered, he's sporting a +11 swim modifier from ranks alone. So that's +15-16 right there. That means even in Full Plate (-6 check penalty) he's got a +10 to swim, and that's before factoring in armor training or masterwork armor, which would mean it's more like +12.
Sorry, but D&D heroes do crazy stuff all the time.
EDIT 2: Likewise, I openly question your GMs validity and credentials to be a GM for a public game like that if he's ignoring so many rules and likewise handicapping the fighter and his armor training. He or she is not fit to be a GM in a publicly run game where everyone is expected to adhere to the rules.
I agree with you Ashiel!
The GM in question said he wouldn't "suggest" the fighter try and swim(He was clutching the side of an overturned boat). Cause when he looked at his sheet, the fighter (lvl 2) had a -6 to his swim (Full Plate, Lg Shield, Str 17). The likelihood of his staying afloat was in question (Rough Water DC15).
He was also not denied a save. That would be cheating, and I wouldn't stand for it, and neither should that player or others.
Thanks,
GM whose been openly questioned, and hopefully, openly answered. :)
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DPR has been around for a while, it was just never as big a focus. With so many core classes competing for the same space, ability to deal damage becomes a major way of differentiating them and finding out what they are 'best' at.
With Superior Unarmed Strike, a Fighter is easily capable of out damaging a monk. With the Adaptive Weapon feature that lets you apply feat benefits to any weapon instead of just 1, Superior Armed Strike Greatswords for 6-36 dmg are possible, too.
==Aelryinth
Ooooh. O.O
Are those 3.5 feats, or something recently released?Book of 9 Swords has Superior Unarmed Strike. The Sword enhancement is from the same book. It was made so that you could apply weapon focus/spec feats to multiple weapons, buuuuuut the writer forgot there's a ton of feats that apply to specific weapons. It got completely ridiculous with dual-wielding heavy crossbows with rules meant for hand crossbows...
Superior Armed Strike actually makes perfect sense, however. Look at any serious martial art movie, and NONE of them proclaim the superiority of fist over sword. When the enemy has a weapon, you grab one, too. Same applies to movies, cartoons...UA is an accessory, something you use so you don't draw a weapon.
Of course, when you use the Heavy Greatsword while Enlarged, and are suddenly doing 12-72 dmg a swing, the DM is apt to get a mite angry at you...or really enjoy doing it back at you.
===Aelryinth
Book of 9 swords was almost as bad as the spell compendium for unbalanced and poorly thought rules.
With 35K and some feats I can get there. I don't know if I would personally set 32 as a goal, but it's reachable. Take Dodge for +1, and drop 8k for Amulet of natural armor +2 and that gets you to 30 without to much pain. The last two point could come by bumping any combination of the ring, bracers, and amulet, but that really wouldn't be worth it to me.
The Wisdom plus the monk bonus (+5 and +4) work out to the same as Full Plate, so I don't see how anyone can argue the monk is under armored at this level vs any other class.
Looking back I actually would probably spend the extra 6k to get the belt of physical perfection to add in a Con bonus, so make having 29K left.
10 Base.
+12 AC, +2 full plate w/ armored kilt.
+3 AC, +2 buckler.
+4 AC, +4 Dexterity (includes cat's grace)
+1 AC, amulet of natural armor.
+1 AC, ring of protection
+1 AC, dodgeAC 32 Assuming a Dex of 14 and a 2nd level buff. About 16,300 gp. We'll grab a continual protection from evil on our armor for another 4,000 gp to help deal with mind control and summoned monsters, and perhaps 5/day grease spell on the armor for another 2000 gp so we can grease ourselves if we need to escape a grapple we can't win for some reason.
We'll use the rest of the money on weapons and wondrous items.
*ponders*
Custom magic weapons shouldn't be assumed within the baseline. If you can build custom items it's actually quite easy to stack an obnoxious number of AC boosters. In addition a permanent protection from evil (1/min per level) would have a x2 modifier for 8,000 gp base x1.5 for adding an additional effect for 12,000 gp. Custom items get very expensive very quickly unless you cheese them out.
AC 32 on a fighter build is definitely doable but it generally comes at a not insignificant cost (just like it does with the monk).
Honestly though the AC monk is kinda a trap. I think 3.x in general rewards offense over defense so if you can boost AC without decreasing DPR it's worthwhile but at a certain point you reach a point of diminishing returns and the opportunity cost of increasing AC comes with a hefty negative average damage cost.
I agree with you Ashiel!
The GM in question said he wouldn't "suggest" the fighter try and swim(He was clutching the side of an overturned boat). Cause when he looked at his sheet, the fighter (lvl 2) had a -6 to his swim (Full Plate, Lg Shield, Str 17). The likelihood of his staying afloat was in question (Rough Water DC15).
He was also not denied a save. That would be cheating, and I wouldn't stand for it, and neither should that player or others.
Thanks,
GM whose been openly questioned, and hopefully, openly answered. :)
Nice to have the rest of the story. Much respect to you. ^_^
Also, yeah, for the record, in a world where people throw fireballs, dragons fly around, and magical beasties pork humans so you get sorcerers, yes, an 8th level fighter can indeed swim in full-plate armor.
For the record Mr. Fishy says your wrong...What are you five?
What do dragons, fireballs and sorcerers have to do with a fighter in plate sinking like a stone? Hell Mr. Fishy's fighter flys in plate mail. Dragons, fighters fly seems logical.
The man misread a rule! Mr. Fishy says lynch the bastard. Who's got the rope?
Open mouth...
Oh, boy, more people who hate the monk because they can't figure out how to rewrite mere flavor text and waive a pure-flavor alignment restriction.
The Book of 9 swords is probably the single most balanced book WoTC came out with. That enhancement is bad because it didn't exclude specific weapon feats, when it was meant to sweep in general weapon enhancing feats (the spec tree). It was the feats applied crazily that are imbalanced.
I highly recommend the book. Gave melees many of the options they should have routinely.
Costs...
Full plate +3 is 9k, +11.
14 Dex with a +2 booster is 4k, +3 AC, AC 24
+2 Lg shield is 4k, +4 AC, AC 28.
+2 ring of prot, 8k, AC 30
+2 Amulet Nat AC, 8k, AC 32.
Total cost is 33k. No feats, odd magic items, or weird side bonuses. Easily done by level 10. Don't even need mithral armor with armor training.
==Aelryinth
Book of 9 swords was almost as bad as the spell compendium for unbalanced and poorly thought rules.DPR has been around for a while, it was just never as big a focus. With so many core classes competing for the same space, ability to deal damage becomes a major way of differentiating them and finding out what they are 'best' at.
With Superior Unarmed Strike, a Fighter is easily capable of out damaging a monk. With the Adaptive Weapon feature that lets you apply feat benefits to any weapon instead of just 1, Superior Armed Strike Greatswords for 6-36 dmg are possible, too.
==Aelryinth
Ooooh. O.O
Are those 3.5 feats, or something recently released?Book of 9 Swords has Superior Unarmed Strike. The Sword enhancement is from the same book. It was made so that you could apply weapon focus/spec feats to multiple weapons, buuuuuut the writer forgot there's a ton of feats that apply to specific weapons. It got completely ridiculous with dual-wielding heavy crossbows with rules meant for hand crossbows...
Superior Armed Strike actually makes perfect sense, however. Look at any serious martial art movie, and NONE of them proclaim the superiority of fist over sword. When the enemy has a weapon, you grab one, too. Same applies to movies, cartoons...UA is an accessory, something you use so you don't draw a weapon.
Of course, when you use the Heavy Greatsword while Enlarged, and are suddenly doing 12-72 dmg a swing, the DM is apt to get a mite angry at you...or really enjoy doing it back at you.
===Aelryinth
They weren't unbalanced. The editing was terrible though, and since WoTC was about to move on to 4E they refused to put out errata.
Oh, boy, more people who hate the monk because they can't figure out how to rewrite mere flavor text and waive a pure-flavor alignment restriction.
just because the op used the word hate that does not make it true, and most of the dislike is because the class is hard to play, and no other bare handed alternative(that people want)exist. If you don't like the fighter as sword guy you still have the ranger, rogue, and barbarian. If you want the fluff to fit the mechanics as is then you have monk for a brawler, not counting the AGP variants that may or may not exist.
You don't have the advanced players guide, do you?
You mean the book that hates monks? Sure do. Best ability he gets from the APG is the ability to die, strike his name from history, and res the party members that can actually do things and not suck.
However it doesn't matter whether the APG is filled with craptastic abilities or filled with epic win for the monk. It doesn't change the fact that saying "Oh but in another book there is a variant that makes it good" is a total cop-out.
I think people get frustrated that it doesn't deal damage like a fighter, and forget that it isn't supposed to. It is like comparing Bard's to Sorcerers.Whenever there's a discussion about what a monk is "supposed" to do, it ends up that the only things the monk shines at (compared to other classes) are:
- running fast
- having good saves
That's it. For anything else, you're better off with another class.
Actually, if you want good saves you should play a Paladin.
We have a level 14 monk in one of our parties.He got problem with DR
he misses most of his hits (flurry of misses)
when he moves he can't use his flurry so his attack bonus drops
no flurry = can't use most of his Ki-pools abilities
Yep, Monks suck.
And I like to point out this monk is created using 25 Point buy and he is a strength based monk.
Um... you realize an armored kilt does absolutely nothing when attached to heavy armor right?+12 AC, +2 full plate w/ armored kilt.
+3 AC, +2 buckler....
Sorry. I think I read that differently. It lists it as having no effect in context of raising the armor's weight category (light to medium, medium to heavy), so I'm not sure which is the correct reading.
For sake of argument, we'll ignore the armored kilt, since it's only a +1 anyway.
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Not reading all the messages...but why all the monk hate?
Mechanically, they have a lot of powerful on paper abilities. (knee jerk munchkin card)
Mechanically, they are all over the place and so are very weak. (Any CO people will hate it)
Fluff wise, they just don't fit in a euro-centric fantasy setting. (any CD people will hate it)
So the better question is why isn't there MORE monk hate...honestly. Because honestly the only people who actively like the monk is the wannabe munchkin (think dorkness rising).
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It really is easy to make a useless monk. They're like bards that way - poor system/class mastery leads to a crappy character.
Maybe that's why people like wizards, clerics, and druids so much. It's kind of hard to make a useless wizard, cleric, or druid, so long as you put enough points in their prime requisite stat.
(Cue angry responses talking about how hard casting is)
I know, the mark of a good prepared spellcaster is that they often have just the right spell for the right situation, and they use their resources wisely. Sometimes, poor players will choose the wrong spells, or they will use their spells poorly. But a beginner wizard can always fall back to damage spells, and he's still useful. Not optimal, but far from useless. As long as the wizard has enough intelligence, he can recover from any mistakes made later on. Clerics and druids even more so (but with wisdom).
A monk, on the other hand, has to have stats and feats that agree with each other. If she doesn't, she's going to be ineffectual. She's going to be a liability.