They don't pass out fan clubs here, you do need to know whats going on.
Lord Twig speaks sillyness! Group? you, you play with other people? The XP!?! You would have to share... Mr. Fishy is going to be sick.
Yeah, I have been wondering how a Rogue would take out any of those guys without a flank buddy, but that is exactly what my Monk is expected to do. The golem that my Monk chews up so easily is going to kill any normal adventuring Wizard. And no, you can't run away and come back later.
Lord Twig speaks sillyness! Group? you, you play with other people? The XP!?! You would have to share... Mr. Fishy is going to be sick.
Arrrrr, Damn, you Devil Fish! AND my LEG! I'll hunt you to the ends of earths, you piscean purloiner! Mark my frothy words! I'll have vengeance, by Aroden's Arse, I will!
Lord Twig speaks sillyness! Group? you, you play with other people? The XP!?! You would have to share... Mr. Fishy is going to be sick.Arrrrr, Damn, you Devil Fish! AND my LEG! I'll hunt you to the ends of earths, you piscean purloiner! Mark my frothy words! I'll have vengeance, by Aroden's Arse, I will!
....aaaannnd I think this post pretty much wins.
This is the out of the box (out of the pond?) thinking that I thinking that is what makes monks a fun class to play.
My players love weird plans. The monk of the old group used to be the focus of a lot of plans involving someone being naked.
And don't let me start on portable holes...
Anyone can charge the enemy but only the monk can do it naked. Cover in lube and contact poison.
Creepy Uncle Quarterly. He's got a club!
So what does the monk do before level 12?
So you are going to run in, and then teleport out? That seems like a waste of actions to me. If you are facing a smaller number of monsters you may not get surrounded, but that also normally means each monster is stronger individually. Of course these are generalizations, and I am not saying the idea will never work, but I don't see it being successful enough to recommend as an ongoing strategy.
Getting to the back is the strategy. Abundant step is fall back ejector button if the strategy fails and your crashing.
Like I said, it is the "Fall back" ejector seat if his mobility advantage doesn't work.
Before level 12 his feat advantage (over everyone but fighter) combined with movement, high saves, immunities, lack of armor check penalties, and jump advantages generally do it.
Before level 12 how "exactly" is the monk going to escape.
Let's assume the monk is level 11. The average encounter is a CR 11In order to surround the monk I need 4 CR 7 monsters to equal out to a CR 11 encounter, which is standard.
Huge Earth Elemental CR 7 CMD 30(35)
Hill Giant CR 7 CMD 24(29 to tumble through a square)
Stone golem CMD 24(29)
The E will be the monsters. The M will be the monk
XE
EME
XE
The monk would have to tumble through squares
He would also potentially provoke so that is a +2 from every other opponent that surrounds him, which adds + to the DC
That means for the giant and golem the DC just shot up to 35.
For the Elemental it just went up to 41
Facepalm the 12th level monk in this thread only has a +18 to acrobatics. If we drop him back down to 11th level he only has a +17.
Even on a 20 he can't escape the elemental.
He needs an 18 to get away form the other two brutes.These monsters are 4 CR's below AP: for the monk, so I ask how exactly is he escaping again?
PS:I realized he may be able to take a diagonal movement depending on setup, but that still makes the Elemental DC a 36, meaning he needs a 19, and the other two are still 12's(less than 50% chance).
One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.This is the job of the monk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXIGP6_fNZk&feature=related
The focus is on fast movement and combat manuevers, not high levels of DPS.
3.5/PF does not encourage that level of improvisation/openness in the fight. For big dumb melees it encourages them to stand there and wail on each other like rock'em sock'em robots.
Also as cool as that is, its really the monk (Jaa) whipping up on a bunch of mooks. Cool but not effective against a target of equal or greater level. Even the BBEG (who seems like a he has one or two levels in a non npc class, a few npc levels and the leadership feat) beats him down till he pulls a pro wrestling style Hulk Hogan comeback.
Tony Jaa is like a Monk that charges and uses vital strike.
He runs, jumps and plants his knees in a guy's solar plexus.Down n out.
Before level 12 how "exactly" is the monk going to escape.
Let's assume the monk is level 11. The average encounter is a CR 11
In order to surround the monk I need 4 CR 7 monsters to equal out to a CR 11 encounter, which is standard.Huge Earth Elemental CR 7 CMD 30(35)
Hill Giant CR 7 CMD 24(29 to tumble through a square)
Stone golem CMD 24(29)The E will be the monsters. The M will be the monk
XE
EME
XE
The monk would have to tumble through squaresHe would also potentially provoke so that is a +2 from every other opponent that surrounds him, which adds + to the DC
That means for the giant and golem the DC just shot up to 35.
For the Elemental it just went up to 41Facepalm the 12th level monk in this thread only has a +18 to acrobatics. If we drop him back down to 11th level he only has a +17.
Even on a 20 he can't escape the elemental.He needs an 18 to get away form the other two brutes.These monsters are 4 CR's below AP: for the monk, so I ask how exactly is he escaping again?
PS:I realized he may be able to take a diagonal movement depending on setup, but that still makes the Elemental DC a 36, meaning he needs a 19, and the other two are still 12's(less than 50% chance).
Okay, so if every creature focuses on preventing the Monk from getting away and ignores the rest of the party, then yes, he will have a difficult time escaping. At that point his best option is to go full defense and spend a Ki point on AC to pump it up to about 38 (Facepalm would be at 39, but I dropped it one point because he is only 11th level here).
More realistically he would go full defense then tumble out without going through an occupied square (70% to 40% chance of success, depending on the creature) and then, if he failed, he would take an AoO that would probably miss.
The number of creatures DO NOT MATTER.
Move Through Threatened Squares
In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5.
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Before level 12 how "exactly" is the monk going to escape.
Let's assume the monk is level 11. The average encounter is a CR 11
In order to surround the monk I need 4 CR 7 monsters to equal out to a CR 11 encounter, which is standard.Huge Earth Elemental CR 7 CMD 30(35)
Hill Giant CR 7 CMD 24(29 to tumble through a square)
Stone golem CMD 24(29)The E will be the monsters. The M will be the monk
XE
EME
XE
The monk would have to tumble through squaresHe would also potentially provoke so that is a +2 from every other opponent that surrounds him, which adds + to the DC
That means for the giant and golem the DC just shot up to 35.
For the Elemental it just went up to 41Facepalm the 12th level monk in this thread only has a +18 to acrobatics. If we drop him back down to 11th level he only has a +17.
Even on a 20 he can't escape the elemental.He needs an 18 to get away form the other two brutes.These monsters are 4 CR's below AP: for the monk, so I ask how exactly is he escaping again?
First, I have never seen a motley crew like this in any encounter, and I don't know why I ran past them in the first place to get to the back row away from someone else someone else unless they were summoning these people, or what horrible planning I used to allow myself to get surrounded on all four sides, without any help, with all of them directly on top of me despite all of them having reach...
That being said...huge earth elemental is +17 to hit, Hill Giant is +14, and stone golem is big nasty at +22.
Facepalm's AC is 29, so they are going to need a 12, a 15 and an 8 to hit respectively. Personally, I would have taken mobility as my 6th level to get a +2 or at 10th taken the cheesy but effective spring attack to attack an opponent w/o taking any attack of opportunity, then move on by him to about, say 30 or 40 feet away, since I have a +30 to movement. That should mean he can only reach me on a charge, so if I position well, only one of them can charge me.
But since we are using facepalms build, I'll have to take my chances that if I fail the acrobatics check, I may get hit with the AoO...either way since my movement is functionally double other peoples, my half movement for a tumble takes me a full move action away, with a standard action left.
At best two get to swing at me, with a good chance they will miss.
Most other classes wouldn't be able to get far enough away that it wouldn't happen again next round because of the 1/2 movement for tumble issue, or would have to cross their fingers as they cast on the defensive.
One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.This is the job of the monk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXIGP6_fNZk&feature=related
The focus is on fast movement and combat manuevers, not high levels of DPS.
3.5/PF does not encourage that level of improvisation/openness in the fight. For big dumb melees it encourages them to stand there and wail on each other like rock'em sock'em robots.
Also as cool as that is, its really the monk (Jaa) whipping up on a bunch of mooks. Cool but not effective against a target of equal or greater level. Even the BBEG (who seems like a he has one or two levels in a non npc class, a few npc levels and the leadership feat) beats him down till he pulls a pro wrestling style Hulk Hogan comeback.
Tony Jaa is like a Monk that charges and uses vital strike.
He runs, jumps and plants his knees in a guy's solar plexus.
Down n out.
According to the FAQ charge and Vital Strike can not be combined.
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According to the FAQ charge and Vital Strike can not be combined.
My wife was mad about this, but her Lance Wielding Gnome Cavalier is ridiculous enough with the damage it does on a charge as is.
Seriously, have you looked a the amount of stacking you can throw on a single Cavalier charge attack with a lance? It's sick.
Okay, so if every creature focuses on preventing the Monk from getting away and ignores the rest of the party, then yes, he will have a difficult time escaping. At that point his best option is to go full defense and spend a Ki point on AC to pump it up to about 38 (Facepalm would be at 39, but I dropped it one point because he is only 11th level here).
More realistically he would go full defense then tumble out without going through an occupied square (70% to 40% chance of success, depending on the creature) and then, if he failed, he would take an AoO that would probably miss.
The number of creatures DO NOT MATTER.
According to Ciretose the monk tumbled/ran/etc right into the middle of them. I was just responding with the results. Once the monk proves to be unhittable the monsters just go for someone they can hit, saving the monk for last. OF course being 4 CR 7's against a level 11 party they get die before they ever get to the monk, but all the monk did was get surrounded and run away.
According to the FAQ charge and Vital Strike can not be combined.My wife was mad about this, but her Lance Wielding Gnome Cavalier is ridiculous enough with the damage it does on a charge as is.
Seriously, have you looked a the amount of stacking you can throw on a single Cavalier charge attack with a lance? It's sick.
I saw it and it is painful to put it mildly. As for the Vital Strike thing I allow it for Spring Attack, but the Cavalier made me think twice about allowing it on a charge.
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Okay, so if every creature focuses on preventing the Monk from getting away and ignores the rest of the party, then yes, he will have a difficult time escaping. At that point his best option is to go full defense and spend a Ki point on AC to pump it up to about 38 (Facepalm would be at 39, but I dropped it one point because he is only 11th level here).
More realistically he would go full defense then tumble out without going through an occupied square (70% to 40% chance of success, depending on the creature) and then, if he failed, he would take an AoO that would probably miss.
The number of creatures DO NOT MATTER.
According to Ciretose the monk tumbled/ran/etc right into the middle of them. I was just responding with the results. Once the monk proves to be unhittable the monsters just go for someone they can hit, saving the monk for last. OF course being 4 CR 7's against a level 11 party they get die before they ever get to the monk, but all the monk did was get surrounded and run away.
Or, the monk kept those four off the casters for a round so they could buff up, prepare spells, etc...
And again, I would only move up like that to get around these guys to the soft creamy center of a caster.
You DM, you know how nice it is when you can bypass the damn tanks and smash the caster.
If that's their "role" then the primary combat types do it better again ... because of their higher #'s involved and the mechanics used to place the status effects in play by the monk anyway (ie: it's just straight, melee combat-type rolls to get this going).Here, you lose me.
Let's say that the monk did have reach (something I could certainly see giving them). One of the monk's two primary stats is dex. Let's say they have a +9 to their Dex mod at 13th level. If you give them combat reflexes and they get 7 attacks per round (I don't have the book on hand, I -think- flurry of blows gives six attacks at 13th level and then you add the extra attack for a ki point), they'll be able to attack 16 different targets all within their reach. This can be all trips, all disarms, all stunning fists (well, almost all anyway), all sunders (which, remember, the monk can have adamentine fist by this level if they've got a monk's robe), or some combination of those. And the monk can do it round after round after round. If they've got Agile Manuevers, their CMB is going to be very high. Many of these combat manuevers use CMB vs. CMD, _not_ to-hit vs. AC.
The problem is the monk doesn't have reach.
Well ... you're losing me, too! ;-p
I have NO idea how you get to 16 attacks ... 8-0!
Cmb Ref is ONLY for gaining additional AoO's ... unless the monk's building very, VERY specifically with things that extend out his Area/Reach/whatever like Combat Patrol from APG, he's really, really, REALLY not going to get to make use of 9+ AoO's. What's more, unless 9+ people suddenly run through/into his "patrol" there is *again* no way he can manage that many strikes. I mean ... it's possible in theory, anyway. Funny as hell, too! ;-) But it's highly circumstantial at best, and misleading at worst.
Any of the special maneuvers are *mostly* "attack actions" or whatever, so yes, they can attack, OR do their thing, but not both. SF is a 1/round thing period (can't burn through SF's like crazy that way).
Since when does the Monk's Robe increase the Ki-pool effect, btw? I know it ups damage die ... but grants your ki-pool a boost as well? Er??
Can he trip the hell out of a whole group of people? Sure - IF he's built to try and control like that, IF he meets the pre-req feats of the full feat line and takes the advanced maneuver feats (to get the most benefit), and IF he lands the shots. There's a LOT of IF's there ... but sure, it's all fully playable and within the realm of potentiality.
Agile Maneuvers - sure, it can mean a high "to hit" and CMB/CMD. Why? (here's where my point stands on the initial response, btw) because EVERYTHING that factors into your "to hit" *also* factors into your CMB/CMD - true story (go read it, my man. It's NOT just a simple cmb/cmd, it's also FULLY modified by all relevant to hit boons, etc).
You're burning a Feat above to get Dex factored in as part of a "to hit" calculation there ... all well and good. However, by going with Guided, any build I'd make will have a pretty good Dex mod, and with the Wis stat being both to hit and damage adjusting, my monk would have a CMB/CMD modified by his Wis score as well. Given that in my build, Wis is A#1 King of ability for the build much like Str is king for fighters, my monk will have a perfectly reasonable CMB anyway. If I toss on the Agile Maneuvers - it's a wasted feat as the Wis is already more/better/whatever.
And ... for insult to injury, let's make it Adamantine Brass Knuckles on one hand, and Silver on the other - both w/guided, and then a silver one in the back pocket for ha-ha's and making the werewolf freak when the monk walks up and punches his teeth down his throat. :-D
So, anyway, back to my point - that you missed the first time around: the CMB is modified by all of your relevant factors in the "to hit" calculations anyway ...
[my point stands]
Edit: those looking for that "Guided" thing, my bad - it's Pathfinder 1022 I believe.
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If I may jump in:
With every class the first question any player - new or old - asks themselves is "What can this class do? Why should I play this?"
First there's the roleplaying thing. Holy crap, I get to jump around and punch dudes out like <martial artist> that's awesome! I'm totally going to be a wise old kung fu master!
...First player trap, one that has existed for every character in every D&D edition: you spread your points out to much. The monk though, he encourages this. You need dexterity. You need wisdom. You need strength. You want constitution. The idea of focusing entirely on one stat isn't one that will come naturally to anyone who reads the monk and notes how many stats he uses.
So that's strike one.
Then you read the abilities and man do they sound cool. First up, I'm a kung fu master, and my unarmed damage just gets higher and higher, that's so awesome, I'm just going to punch everything!
...Except you won't do much to them because they have DR, and you can't pass that. Except you won't do much to them because you can't enchant your fists without a single item from another book that's quietly tucked into the weapons part, or by a) spending way more gold then everyone else and b) restricting your own access to your natural armor item (which you need).
You keep reading the abilities and, ok, check this out. I get flurry of blows because I'm just punching all the time, like that Fist of the North Star guy, and because I'm a kung fu master I move REALLY fast, way faster then everyone else.
...Thing is, full attacks can't be done after you move. A problem that has plagued 3e on the whole, and really something I desperately wish had been murdered in an alleyway. So the two defining things you see in a monk can't be used at the same time.
So that's strike three. We've barely cleared level 3.
Next is maneuver training, and ok, this one makes sense, you flurry when you stand still and use a maneuver when you move, sounds good!
...Except you already have meh strength due to MAD, and each maneuver takes two feats, and there's already all these other feats you want/need in order to properly punch things, so you aren't so hot at it.
Then as you hit the next few abilities another big problem comes in.
You get slow fall which is not so good as Feather Falll and can be replaced with a magic item.
You get High Jump which is not as good as flight, which everyone and their dad needs anyways.
You get Purity of Body, but by that level divine casters can easily quell diseases.
You get Wholeness of Body, but it barely heals anything.
This. This right here. Is the flaw of the monks. In 3.5 flurry of blows was nicknamed "Flurry of misses" because at it's heart it was a lot of small attacks that didn't do much and most didn't hit to begin with. That is the entire Monk philosophy - the class is based on a flurry of misses. Of having lots and lots of little class abilities that just don't really do anything.
So, why be a monk? To quote someone else from somewhere else:
"Because you want to be a great, powerful and wise kung fu master who can trip, grapple, stun, and disarm his way around the battlefield, moving faster than anyone else and kill casters so they don't threaten your teammates. You won't actually get to do it, but that's a separate issue."
Abundant Step is a move action. That means you can move to pretty much -anywhere- on the battle mat and attack all in the same round.Except for the whole "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn" part of "you can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door."
Which someone else mentioned earlier, so I can't take credit for remembering.
Not my reading.
"Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability."
He isn't casting a spell, he has the supernatural ability to slip between spaces as if using the spell dimension door, only he can't bring others and it is a move action, rather than the standard action dimension door normally is.
Otherwise, there would be no reason to change it from a standard action in the spell to a move action.
+1
and also it isnt viable to say that a fighter is a better grappler than a monk EVEN STILL. Weapon specialization, cleave, weapon focus, ect. are all very much less effective when used by a fighter specializing in grapple mearly because the damage for a fighter's unarmed strike is far lower than a monks. Monks are better grapples, plain and simple naturally. Not to say fighters can be equally impressive at grappling but to do so they must take alot more feats to be effective, thus reducing there effectiveness elsewhere.
It is also more difficult to be a DPSer when you are grappling as a fighter simply because you do less damage than Johnny Rainbow with a two hander.
So thus as I said before to say that A fighter is a better DPSer and a better grappler IS a building built on quicksand.
poison
...Except you won't do much to them because they have DR, and you can't pass that. Except you won't do much to them because you can't enchant your fists without a single item from another book that's quietly tucked into the weapons part, or by a) spending way more gold then everyone else and b) restricting your own access to your natural armor item (which you need).
Untrue on most accounts. You get damage reduction bypassing abilties as you level, which is usually when you encounter things with damage reduction. On top of that you can still use a monk weapon instead of your fist or Brass knuckles...
...Thing is, full attacks can't be done after you move. A problem that has plagued 3e on the whole, and really something I desperately wish had been murdered in an alleyway. So the two defining things you see in a monk can't be used at the same time.
again using the ability the wrong way. Stunning Fist then full attack young padawan. Not using your movement because you want to full attack is a mistake the player has made, not the designers of the monk. Move and stun, full attack. Move and stun, full attack. Succeeds a stun, attempt a manuever, stops the manuever? that is called a challenging monster and fighters will have trouble dropping something like that as well as you because unlike a grapple or a stun damage doesnt put a dragon on the ground after one round...
...Except you already have meh strength due to MAD, and each maneuver takes two feats, and there's already all these other feats you want/need in order to properly punch things, so you aren't so hot at it.
You get bonus feats for combat manuevers.. not so difficult to accomplish multiple tasks now that feats are every other level.
Then as you hit the next few abilities another big problem comes in.
You get slow fall which is not so good as Feather Falll and can be replaced with a magic item.
You get High Jump which is not as good as flight, which everyone and their dad needs anyways.
You get Purity of Body, but by that level divine casters can easily quell diseases.
You get Wholeness of Body, but it barely heals anything
wasting money on feather fall or wasting an action to cast feather fall... hmmmm sounds like a good substitute for free and immediate use, not to mention the ability lets you slow your fall in terms of damage, not time. Where featherfall has a speed, run from the guards by jumping off the cliff? better hope they dont shoot your ass as you float to the ground.
high jump over the beholder while the unflyable wizard stays on the ground. Also usuable anytime, and for free without wasting resources and fully functional in antimagic fields or dispellings...
as for the diseases, yeah after combat or atleast a round in between while mister fighter lays motionless after some dex poison/disease because he dumped the stat...
im not going to dignify the hit points with a response, hit points always rocks as long as it is enough to keep you standing.
Okay, so if every creature focuses on preventing the Monk from getting away and ignores the rest of the party, then yes, he will have a difficult time escaping. At that point his best option is to go full defense and spend a Ki point on AC to pump it up to about 38 (Facepalm would be at 39, but I dropped it one point because he is only 11th level here).
More realistically he would go full defense then tumble out without going through an occupied square (70% to 40% chance of success, depending on the creature) and then, if he failed, he would take an AoO that would probably miss.
The number of creatures DO NOT MATTER.
According to Ciretose the monk tumbled/ran/etc right into the middle of them. I was just responding with the results. Once the monk proves to be unhittable the monsters just go for someone they can hit, saving the monk for last. OF course being 4 CR 7's against a level 11 party they get die before they ever get to the monk, but all the monk did was get surrounded and run away.
Or, the monk kept those four off the casters for a round so they could buff up, prepare spells, etc...
And again, I would only move up like that to get around these guys to the soft creamy center of a caster.
You DM, you know how nice it is when you can bypass the damn tanks and smash the caster.
What caster is that easy to get too. Even at 7th level they have mirror image and displacement. This is not one of those "wizard having the right spell again" things. I just have never seen a wizard not have those spells available if not up.
Sometimes the caster is a cleric or druid and they are not so creamy.PS: If the caster is there and you have a straight shot to him he deserves what he gets. I could just make a dex based fighter and get to him if it is that easy.
Abundant Step is a move action. That means you can move to pretty much -anywhere- on the battle mat and attack all in the same round.Except for the whole "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn" part of "you can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door."
Which someone else mentioned earlier, so I can't take credit for remembering.
Not my reading.
"Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability."
He isn't casting a spell, he has the supernatural ability to slip between spaces as if using the spell dimension door, only he can't bring others and it is a move action, rather than the standard action dimension door normally is.
Otherwise, there would be no reason to change it from a standard action in the spell to a move action.
+1
and also it isnt viable to say that a fighter is a better grappler than a monk EVEN STILL. Weapon specialization, cleave, weapon focus, ect. are all very much less effective when used by a fighter specializing in grapple mearly because the damage for a fighter's unarmed strike is far lower than a monks. Monks are better grapples, plain and simple naturally. Not to say fighters can be equally impressive at grappling but to do so they must take alot more feats to be effective, thus reducing there effectiveness elsewhere.
It is also more difficult to be a DPSer when you are grappling as a fighter simply because you do less damage than Johnny Rainbow with a two hander.
So thus as I said before to say that A fighter is a better DPSer and a better grappler IS a building built on quicksand.
A fighter can take his leftover feats and focus on grappling. He only needs weapon focus(grappling), improved grapple, greater grapple, and unarmed strike. That is 4 out of 20 feats. The most intensive fighting styles are ranged attacks and TWF. He can takes those and still have feats left for grappling. I am not saying a grappling fighter is optimal because I think he is better off doing damage, but to say the fighter fails(that is how I read the quicksand statement) is laughable at best, since he is no worse than the monk.
PS:Agile Maneuvers works if he(TWF or Archery fighter) really cares about grappling.
If I may jump in:
With every class the first question any player - new or old - asks themselves is "What can this class do? Why should I play this?"
First there's the roleplaying thing. Holy crap, I get to jump around and punch dudes out like <martial artist> that's awesome! I'm totally going to be a wise old kung fu master!
...First player trap...
post monster ate my post so I'm going to try this again.
I appreciate your view, but with respect I think the problem is that you are approaching this as an exercise where nothing but the best will suffice. Feather fall? Everyone is flying? I have yet to be in a campaign where they hand boots of flying at prescribed level.
I do think most players who read the monk entry approach it from an RP perspective and I think the class delivers the RP experience that it suggests, BUT...
Many people who decry the monk class do so because they expect to get the big 6, the fly at a certain level, to have DR bypassing items. They have played the game for a long time and have crunched the numbers. They see casters as gods and look down on the monk's extraordinary abilities because a wizard "does it better" (as long as he has the spell he needs and hasn't run out of slots that day).
Its sort of glass half empty (or wizard half full) thinking, that doesn't take into account that the monks extraordinary abilities (putting him in the same camp/tier as fighters, barbarians, and rogues) work all day are often just "good enough" to perhaps let the wizard prepare something else, or keep that fly spell for when its really needed.
In the end IT IS an RP decision to play a monk instead of a cleric or sorcerer. But it also means that you have to not need to be awesome at everything or play the perfect game.
Also everything you described about the DR, movement, attributes effects any TWF the same. A TWF fighter needs an awesome DEX just to qualify for the feats (as high as 19 for greater TWF) so he's just as MAD.
A...Abundant Step is a move action. That means you can move to pretty much -anywhere- on the battle mat and attack all in the same round.Except for the whole "After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn" part of "you can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door."
Which someone else mentioned earlier, so I can't take credit for remembering.
Not my reading.
"Abundant Step (Su)
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability."
He isn't casting a spell, he has the supernatural ability to slip between spaces as if using the spell dimension door, only he can't bring others and it is a move action, rather than the standard action dimension door normally is.
Otherwise, there would be no reason to change it from a standard action in the spell to a move action.
+1
and also it isnt viable to say that a fighter is a better grappler than a monk EVEN STILL. Weapon specialization, cleave, weapon focus, ect. are all very much less effective when used by a fighter specializing in grapple mearly because the damage for a fighter's unarmed strike is far lower than a monks. Monks are better grapples, plain and simple naturally. Not to say fighters can be equally impressive at grappling but to do so they must take alot more feats to be effective, thus reducing there effectiveness elsewhere.
It is also more difficult to be a DPSer when you are grappling as a fighter simply because you do less damage than Johnny Rainbow with a two hander.
So thus as I said before to say that A fighter is a better DPSer and a better grappler IS a building built on quicksand.
You have failed to see my point.
My point is while a fighter is grappling he is essentially INEFFECTIVE in comparison to just fighting with his weapon, provided unarmed strike is not his weapon of choice was my point. Yes he can be good at grappling but why the hell would he grapple and attempt to beat a combat manuever bonus when he is far better to try and deal damage. This is not the case with the monk, who can deal above par damage while grappling and have many other options available WITHOUT swapping out four nice feats... which he gets twenty of if we are talking to 20th level, which is a fallacy to compare all classes at that level.
At low levels if a fighter is trying to be a grappler he is subpar to the monk in respect to damage and effectiveness. You cant weapon specialization your basterd sword in a grapple so if you want the extra damage you have to put it to unarmed strike... which is not as good of weapon compared to a monks unarmed strike.
Thus why you cant have your cake and eat it too. Fighters simply cant do both at the same time or interchangably as effectively as a monk. This is not to include trip, disarm, and so on and so forth.
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I'm not asking for the best in everything, I'm asking for "good" in something. That's the monk's problem. He's "Ehhhh kinda decent, fairly good if he specializes, though other classes will still be better" at everything.
As someone else pointed out, a fighter is better at punching things then a monk.
Yeah, ok, I buy that people can like the monk for RP reasons, but doesn't that already tell you the monk needs help if literally the only reason he's good is because people can ignore his faults? I mean, I love the alchemist, but I can admit that the alchemist is hilariously weak.
Also, as for boots of flying, everyone is flying at a certain level. If not the PCs, then the monsters are, which means the PCs that aren't are in trouble.
As for the overuse in Stunning Fist, with what DC? What stat did you lose in order to get a good wisdom? Did you lose strength? There goes your damage. Did you lose constitution? Guess you aren't a frontline fighter anymore. Dexterity? There goes your initiative, there goes your throwing, and you're only barely keeping even on AC. What was the sacrifice? You can't have 18's in everything.
It's funny, because when Paizo made the paladin, they knew this was a problem. The old paladin needed just about every stat. The only two he didn't need was dexterity (sorta, he still wants good initiative) and intelligence. It was awful. So they removed the wisdom qualifications so he didn't end up with a 12 in everything.
The monk, who had the same problem? They let him flounder. What the hell?
those looking for that "Guided" thing, my bad - it's Pathfinder 1022 I believe.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is Pathfinder 1022? Is it an AP book?
So, on a tangent, I was thinking "would help any to just allow all monk weapons to use the unarmed dice for damage?" They set the precedent with brass knuckles, and if people are saying that DR and DPR are issues for monks, wouldn't this fix them both? It wouldn't fix the MAD issue or AC, but I was thinking this would be a simple house rule for a start.
I'm not asking for the best in everything, I'm asking for "good" in something. That's the monk's problem. He's "Ehhhh kinda decent, fairly good if he specializes, though other classes will still be better" at everything.
As someone else pointed out, a fighter is better at punching things then a monk.
Yeah, ok, I buy that people can like the monk for RP reasons, but doesn't that already tell you the monk needs help if literally the only reason he's good is because people can ignore his faults? I mean, I love the alchemist, but I can admit that the alchemist is hilariously weak.
Also, as for boots of flying, everyone is flying at a certain level. If not the PCs, then the monsters are, which means the PCs that aren't are in trouble.
As for the overuse in Stunning Fist, with what DC? What stat did you lose in order to get a good wisdom? Did you lose strength? There goes your damage. Did you lose constitution? Guess you aren't a frontline fighter anymore. Dexterity? There goes your initiative, there goes your throwing, and you're only barely keeping even on AC. What was the sacrifice? You can't have 18's in everything.
It's funny, because when Paizo made the paladin, they knew this was a problem. The old paladin needed just about every stat. The only two he didn't need was dexterity (sorta, he still wants good initiative) and intelligence. It was awful. So they removed the wisdom qualifications so he didn't end up with a 12 in everything.
The monk, who had the same problem? They let him flounder. What the hell?
It is interesting that they increased the Monk's attack bonus by +3 and it is still too low. Increased AC by +1, still too low. Reduced the cost of the Amulet of Might Fists and it is still "stupid expensive". And you can now add effects to the Amulet and Bracers of Armor, except that it costs too much and you can't afford to lose the pluses. Increased the number of Stunning Fists, but the DC is still too low. <Name_your_improvement>, still not good enough. Etc. Etc.
Despite everyone complaining about the Monk's AC it has been consistently shown to be very close to the Fighter. The save DC for Stunning Fist is the same as a Wizards highest level spell, it won't get the feats or single stat focus to buff it up, but it is still pretty good.
Both Paladins and Rangers benefit from all the physical stats and one mental stat, just like the Monk. The Monk's primary abilities are going to be Str and Wis. Dex and Con are secondary. I like to keep Int at 10 and Cha can be dumped. I guess what the Monk really lacks is a Smite or Favored Enemy bonus. He gets defenses instead (and no matter what anyone says the defenses are good), but he lacks in a big "here's a lot of extra damage" ability. Smite, Favored Enemy, Sneak Attack.
It seems to me the only real problem is that Two Weapon Fighting is more expensive (in money and feats) and does that same or less damage as Two-Handed Weapon Fighting. The monk gets all three Two Weapon Fighting feats and Double Slice for free and he doesn't need the Dex for them. He also gets Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist for free to make his unarmed attacks viable.
As a house rule I am going to have the Amulet of Mighty Fists cost bonus*bonus*4. So a +5 amulet will cost 5*5*4,000=100,000, or the same as two +5 weapons, minus the cost of the actual weapons. I will also allow the bonus to go all the way up to +10. A +8 amulet would cost 8*8*4,000=256,000 or 56,000 more than a +10 weapon, but it should still be doable at high levels.
those looking for that "Guided" thing, my bad - it's Pathfinder 1022 I believe.I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is Pathfinder 1022? Is it an AP book?
So, on a tangent, I was thinking "would help any to just allow all monk weapons to use the unarmed dice for damage?" They set the precedent with brass knuckles, and if people are saying that DR and DPR are issues for monks, wouldn't this fix them both? It wouldn't fix the MAD issue or AC, but I was thinking this would be a simple house rule for a start.
Yeah ... I was introduced to this from these boards myself, but I've latched onto it RIGHT quick as it's the perfect "fix" for the monk, IMO.
I found it here for reference. It looks like a PF-compatible product or something sold on-site near as I can tell. Maybe it's a catalog item #1022?
I don't know where you get the idea that characters need to take out monsters by themselves.
From the rulebooks. Level 12 monk is CR 11. Therefore he should be able to win against randomly chosen CR 11 monsters 50% of the time. He manifestly isn't.
Any class is going to have trouble with some of those monsters, but probably different ones depending on who they are. I did not build Facepalm to be a solo character, he is designed with a group in mind.
And in a group he should be able to cancel out CR 12 monsters 50% of the time. Him not being a solo character (although I don't know what exactly being designed with a group in mind means in his case, except the assumption that he will be able to leech resources off others) is already taken into account by PF CR system, that makes his solo CR lower than his level.
Yeah, I have been wondering how a Rogue would take out any of those guys without a flank buddy, but that is exactly what my Monk is expected to do.
Did I said anywhere, that PF Rogue does not suck too? The only core non-caster character in PF that is viable at high levels is the archer fighter. Maybe APG added something else, don't know and don't care.
The golem that my Monk chews up so easily is going to kill any normal adventuring Wizard.
Lol, no. Any normal Wizard will, at worst, ignore and bypass him. The golem has almost zero ability to actually hurt the wizard, besides contrived circumstances like a surprise golem attack on a wholly unprepared wizard in enclosed space. And any illusion takes care of it forever, as it is mindless. There are CR 11 monstes that can seriously threaten the Wizard, like dragons and outsiders, but golems are just minor environmental hazards.
You have failed to see my point.
My point is while a fighter is grappling he is essentially INEFFECTIVE in comparison to just fighting with his weapon, provided unarmed strike is not his weapon of choice was my point. Yes he can be good at grappling but why the hell would he grapple and attempt to beat a combat manuever bonus when he is far better to try and deal damage. This is not the case with the monk, who can deal above par damage while grappling and have many other options available WITHOUT swapping out four nice feats... which he gets twenty of if we are talking to 20th level, which is a fallacy to compare all classes at that level.
At low levels if a fighter is trying to be a grappler he is subpar to the monk in respect to damage and effectiveness. You cant weapon specialization your basterd sword in a grapple so if you want the extra damage you have to put it to unarmed strike... which is not as good of weapon compared to a monks unarmed strike.
Thus why you cant have your cake and eat it too. Fighters simply cant do both at the same time or interchangably as effectively as a monk. This is not to include trip, disarm, and so on and so forth.
Ok, so ... now you're comparing a Fighter that *doesn't* use unarmed as a focus in combat to justify that he'll NOT be as good as a monk in unarmed - is that right? That's such a straw man it's not even funny.
To even *consider* Fighter vs. Monk in unarmed, you HAVE to build a fighter to be ALL ABOUT unarmed combat. That means Weapon Training 1 = Unarmed. It means Weapon Focus (and Greater) in Unarmed, and Weapon Specialization (and Greater) in Unarmed as well. Unlike a monk, he won't have scaling die increases, so his best bet off the bat will be brass knuckles/gauntlets and armor spikes.
He'll be bringing all of his WT and WF/WS boons to the striking table, and he'll make the monk cry with how much better he is, offensively in striking OR grappling.
1d4 hand strike damage + the armor spike damage + all other relevant bonuses - he WILL strike harder than a monk, and he'll do it a HELL of a lot more often.
He'll be able to use PA far more effectively than a monk (that can't really afford too much of a dip for high AC targets), on top of all that, too.
If he invests in dex, then he'll be able to pursue the 2-weapon fighting feats, AND now he's essentially in possession of the "flurry" ability on his own. He can pick up the SF feat, and the Medusa one, too (honesly, probably won't be as good for him unless he's really pumping Wis somehow - but he *can* do it). He can take the 2-wpn rend on top of that as well - and the monk ... he's still crying about it all.
You can't posit the idea of a fighter that fights unarmed and NOT build said fighter to fight unarmed. That's just silly.
As soon as you put pen to paper, the fighter WILL sky-rocket past the monk in effectiveness - grappling or otherwise.
[NOTE: Monks do not qualify automatically for *any* advanced feat trees ... at ALL! They get base level feats for this: UAS, and IG, and that's it.]
those looking for that "Guided" thing, my bad - it's Pathfinder 1022 I believe.I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is Pathfinder 1022? Is it an AP book?
So, on a tangent, I was thinking "would help any to just allow all monk weapons to use the unarmed dice for damage?" They set the precedent with brass knuckles, and if people are saying that DR and DPR are issues for monks, wouldn't this fix them both? It wouldn't fix the MAD issue or AC, but I was thinking this would be a simple house rule for a start.
Yeah ... I was introduced to this from these boards myself, but I've latched onto it RIGHT quick as it's the perfect "fix" for the monk, IMO.
I found it here for reference. It looks like a PF-compatible product or something sold on-site near as I can tell. Maybe it's a catalog item #1022?
He is referring to AP #10 CotCT: A History of Ashes pg. 22.
From the rulebooks. Level 12 monk is CR 11. Therefore he should be able to win against randomly chosen CR 11 monsters 50% of the time. He manifestly isn't.
Sure?
Aren't CRs calculated on a party of four?
Level of a PC and CR of an NPC are two different beasts.
Hahahaha! I just thought of another way to build the "unarmed" fighter-specialist-monk that will out-perform the monk on an even more abusive level ... shields.
Make the fighter all about punching and take those shield-feats that function like 2-wpn fighting, and the fighter will have a sky-high AC, and can "flurry" with fists and shield strikes.
Yeah ... this isn't a favorable comparison to Monks in any way, shape, or form.
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Hahahaha! I just thought of another way to build the "unarmed" fighter-specialist-monk that will out-perform the monk on an even more abusive level ... shields.
Make the fighter all about punching and take those shield-feats that function like 2-wpn fighting, and the fighter will have a sky-high AC, and can "flurry" with fists and shield strikes.
Yeah ... this isn't a favorable comparison to Monks in any way, shape, or form.
And he will still have half the movement, lower saves, none of the immunities, half the skills (before armor check penalties), none of the spell like abilities...
But sure, if you completely focus your build and suffer the same MAD issues you can match one the monk gets, inherently. Eventually. At higher levels.
Hahahaha! I just thought of another way to build the "unarmed" fighter-specialist-monk that will out-perform the monk on an even more abusive level ... shields.
Make the fighter all about punching and take those shield-feats that function like 2-wpn fighting, and the fighter will have a sky-high AC, and can "flurry" with fists and shield strikes.
Yeah ... this isn't a favorable comparison to Monks in any way, shape, or form.
And he will still have half the movement, lower saves, none of the immunities, half the skills (before armor check penalties), none of the spell like abilities...
But sure, if you completely focus your build and suffer the same MAD issues you can match one the monk gets, inherently. Eventually. At higher levels.
Yeah. People raised several good points (as an example, the lack of "Greater [Maneuver X]" feats) but compare the two classes only about punches is wrong, IMO.
The Monk's primary abilities are going to be Str and Wis. Dex and Con are secondary. I like to keep Int at 10 and Cha can be dumped.
I agree that Charisma is the least important stat for a monk. Do you think that a low Charisma is a contributing factor to all the monk hate?
From the rulebooks. Level 12 monk is CR 11. Therefore he should be able to win against randomly chosen CR 11 monsters 50% of the time. He manifestly isn't.
And in a group he should be able to cancel out CR 12 monsters 50% of the time. Him not being a solo character (although I don't know what exactly being designed with a group in mind means in his case, except the assumption that he will be able to leech resources off others) is already taken into account by PF CR system, that makes his solo CR lower than his level.
This is a fallacy. No character should be able to take out an opponent of equal CR half the time. There are some very important factors you are missing with your formula:
1) The CR system assumes a party of 4: fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard
2) A typical CR 11 creature has 3-5 attacks. A party would have 7 (fighter =3, cleric and wizard = 1 each if they cast a spell, rogue = 2).
3) A typical CR 11 monster can have 150-200 hit points. A typical party has fighter (70) + cleric (57) + wizard (31) + rogue (57) = 215 assuming a 10 Constitution for each character (simply increasing Con to 12 will add 48 hit points). These hit points are spread out in four different AC categories and most likely spread out in distance as well.
4) A party of 4 typically has far more options than a single opponent
This was a silly little premise with 3.5 and it remains so with Pathfinder. It doesn't take into account near enough details and ignores how the system is meant to work. Just because another class can do it does not mean that it was meant to do it.
According to the FAQ charge and Vital Strike can not be combined.One thing I would -not- want is for the Monk to be turned into just another DPSer like the Fighter.
I don't care whether the Monk can do as much DPS as the Fighter. That's not his job.This is the job of the monk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXIGP6_fNZk&feature=related
The focus is on fast movement and combat manuevers, not high levels of DPS.
3.5/PF does not encourage that level of improvisation/openness in the fight. For big dumb melees it encourages them to stand there and wail on each other like rock'em sock'em robots.
Also as cool as that is, its really the monk (Jaa) whipping up on a bunch of mooks. Cool but not effective against a target of equal or greater level. Even the BBEG (who seems like a he has one or two levels in a non npc class, a few npc levels and the leadership feat) beats him down till he pulls a pro wrestling style Hulk Hogan comeback.
Tony Jaa is like a Monk that charges and uses vital strike.
He runs, jumps and plants his knees in a guy's solar plexus.
Down n out.
OK...
He moves 30 or 40 ft then Vital Strikes...
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Hahahaha! I just thought of another way to build the "unarmed" fighter-specialist-monk that will out-perform the monk on an even more abusive level ... shields.
Make the fighter all about punching and take those shield-feats that function like 2-wpn fighting, and the fighter will have a sky-high AC, and can "flurry" with fists and shield strikes.
Yeah ... this isn't a favorable comparison to Monks in any way, shape, or form.
Except that, because he will be using a shield as a weapon, he is no longer fighting "unarmed", which was the point of bringing up the Unarmed Fighter build, right?
This was a silly little premise with 3.5 and it remains so with Pathfinder.
So, the character of certain CR shouldn't be worth certain CR in your opinion? That's an interesting brand of anti-reason.
Looking at "hate reduction" options presented here.
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Seeking weapon monk
Pro: Reduces MAD, AC remains solid, SF is the highest possible without a drastic curtail of damaging potential. Possibly less focus on CM’s (no need to have an int. 13+).
Other than perhaps Ability Focus: Stunning Fist no real mandatory feat selections. This allows it to combine well with other “hate reduction” tactics.
Cons: What do you do till 4-6 when you get seeking, or in a more restrictive setting where only a subset of books are allowed, and this enhancement isn’t an option? That is half of the PF chronicles levels. Crossbow may be the best option at the lower levels?
To have to have a magic item to make a class function (rather than enhance its function) seems like a poor design.
Could this be incorporated into the class as a class feature around level 1-2?
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Maneuvers monk
Pro: Fully utilizes the maneuvers training of the monk. Many benefit from the bonus feat selection of the monk. These options are less likely to rely on ranged combat at lower levels. A maneuver at the end of a movement round allows a monk to act as a full BAB character on movement rounds as well as FoB rounds.
A “Dirty Trick Monk” can open up medusa’s wrath opportunities (or at least force the opponent to use a move action to mitigate the effect and avoid the extra attacks limiting the opponent’s options if a melee character, less restrictive to casters who rely on standard actions).
A “Trip Monk” can benefit from the bonus feat selection of lower level Monks. As the prone condition effects CMD along with AC opens up other CM opportunities (Combine with grapple perhaps?)
A “Disarm Monk” (strongest when using the monk of the empty hand from APG and catch off guard). Reduces weapon based characters damage potential (or at least force the opponent to use a move action to mitigate the effect, weapon cord mitigates the AoO potential for 1sp; limiting the opponent’s options if a melee character, less restrictive to casters who rely on standard actions). If an improvised weapon monk disarms an opponent then catch off guard could lower AC/CMD (flat footed)
A “Grapple Monk” is the only option where the “Greater” version is accessible without MAD. Grapple damage based off unarmed strikes so while variable does increase with level. Excellent “class based caster” control.
Cons:
This build could hurt AC/HP.
In most cases these builds feed the MAD by needing an INT of 13, and combat expertise (can be mitigated by a seeking weapon or agile maneuvers feat and dumping STR), to fully enhance maneuver options.
Dirty trick is not on monk bonus feat list. Not a huge deal but it’s there.
These options are very susceptible to the high CMD of later levels, reducing their effectiveness. Particularly when considering the greater feats being MAD inducing.
Each maneuver you use is one less potentially damaging attack. You slow the enemy down but deal no damage. In a group setting this may be useful but many players may balk at a non-damaging, non-healing, non-face party member. This may be argued that it is not a short coming of the class/build but of the players. However, as this is a collaborative game involving multiple people at minimum you should clearly communicate that this character operates in such a fashion so as to avoid frustrations amongst the players. Also this does not really represent the Tony Jaa clip posted here as his attacks damage his opponent and produce the CM effects. Now it is possible to add the critical proc feats like tripping strike but with a 5% chance of critical per strike it is not likely that players would go that route.
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Improved critical monk:
If the monk progression added not only damage but modified critical then other alternatives arise. I posted a rough-in in this thread already
Pros:
This option can make use of the maneuvers training of the monk class. Many builds benefit from the bonus feat selection of the monk. These options are less likely to rely on ranged combat at lower levels.
Arguably (at high levels granted) the free maneuver on Crit feats become more viable options allowing for chances to trip, disarm, etc while still dealing damage(perhaps not much damage). These CM’s are still subject to the CMD inflation at high levels but is less penalizing than a maneuver based monk build as you are still damaging the target.
Critical builds arguably deal more damage, which can be a big selling point for some of those who do not care for the monk.
Could be a more “transparent” monk as you could not focus on maneuvers /SF allowing for less MAD
For this type of monk Improved critical as a bonus feat option at lvl 10 becomes more attractive than currently.
Cons:
This build could hurt AC/HP.
In many cases these builds feed the MAD by needing an INT of 13, and combat expertise (can be mitigated by a seeking weapon or agile maneuvers feat and dumping STR), to enhance maneuver options.
Maneuver options are very susceptible to the high CMD of later levels, reducing their effectiveness. Particularly when considering the greater feats being MAD inducing.
The critique of producing “just another DPR class” that has been brought up, and I have no counter argument.
This requires a massive reworking and balancing of the core mechanics of the class.
Looking at "hate reduction" options presented here...
If I were to offer some house rules based on what you presented...
• One of the perennial problems for monks and maneuvers is combat expertise. Generally monks don't have the points to spend on intelligence, and its a feat tax on top of that. Its also practically useless, and is already represented by fighting defensively, and total defense.
If I were redoing the monk class, I think I'd change combat expertise (perhaps changing it to reducing the attack modifier of fighting defensively from -4 to -2) and make it part of unarmed combat for free. If there is one thing martial arts teach you first, its how to not get hurt (as much). Or I might just remove it from the prereqs of all those maneuver feats.
Edit - or perhaps take the Int prereq away. You don't need to be above average intelligent to use tactics in combat. You just need practice.
Thus a monk would be already able to qualify for improved and greater maneuver feats.
• For the BAB nonsense, there are a couple things to consider. Monks get the 3/4 BAB to limit them in their feat selection. Their bonus feats are there to let them bypass the BAB limit. Thus the bonus feats need to include flavor appropriate feats that monks would otherwise be denied. The current list is IMHO a little thin. Bonus feats represent the "customization" aspect of the class, so having a broad list allows for a wider more interesting range of options, making them feel like they have more potential.
I also don't like how monks that don't flurry use a different attack bonus. That seems clunky. I would give them an effective full BAB when using monk weapons/fists. It also protects them from being more horribly gimped by slowing effects. It also means that they have to be using their "monk style" to get their full BAB. If they multiclass and start using a bastard sword, they suffer the 3/4 BAB.
Another option of course is to just give them a full BAB. I am not sure if I like this plan though, as limitations add flavor to class as much as its features, as long as they are within reason.
• HP is a problem for monks. Con often gets the shaft. Treantmonks guide advises that monks get both their favored class bonus to HP and the toughness feat. Making wholeness of body a swift action would help a beleaguered monk in combat boost his survivability. You might also include the monks Con bonus to his level for the points.
Edit - If you wanted to more generous, you might let them add their wisdom bonus rather than their Con bonus.
• to-hit I don't think is an issue as much as reliance on strength for damage. I'd include a "Nerve Strike" feat that lets you swap in wisdom bonus for damage with unarmed attacks. A frail looking dextrous monk, could then have a Str of 10, take weapon finesse and nerve strike, and damage like a champ. Yes, that's a lot of feats (especially if you go the whole hog and take agile maneuvers). But its a trade of to be less MAD which I am hesitant to monkey with too much. Attribute points are a big deal, and it can be easy to throw off the balance.
Adding to the BAB portion of my last post, I think there need to be some flavorful feats out there that add weapons to the list of monk weapons. Eberron has some (with some redonculous prereqs, but hey...) and I think they were on the right track. A shortsword monk would then be pretty neat. Or a longspear monk, or a spiked chain monk, etc.
The IMHO wrong way to go about it though, is to have a feat that lets you add any weapon. Greatsword monk seems like an attempt to game the system.
Hahahaha! I just thought of another way to build the "unarmed" fighter-specialist-monk that will out-perform the monk on an even more abusive level ... shields.
Make the fighter all about punching and take those shield-feats that function like 2-wpn fighting, and the fighter will have a sky-high AC, and can "flurry" with fists and shield strikes.
Yeah ... this isn't a favorable comparison to Monks in any way, shape, or form.
Congratulations you created a fighter that focuses on unarmed strikes. He does so effectively, but still cant do everything the monk can do and does about rivaling damage and much lower damage at low levels.
My argument is totally null now... you are a god.
Maybe I'm not clear on where *I'm* coming from on the monk side of things then if people are taking it for me saying the monk sucks.
I'm firmly in the camp of "the monk does things differently" for clarification here.
What my last few points were about is to counter the idea the the fighter will be ineffective in a grapple/unarmed compared to a monk.
I'm just putting the #'s out there to emphasize the disparity because it wasn't being all that challenged. A fighter will *always* out damage just about anyone (certainly monks in *most* circumstances) in just about any mode of combat.
I never contested the monk surpassing his defenses (ciretose's point), as I share that opinion. The monk *does* bring a LOT more defensive bang for the buck.
That's not the point that was made by Midnightoker, though. He was insisting that monks can out-grapple and be more useful in a similar build/concept/role/whatever.
I'm all FOR the camp of "but monks do other things well ..." but when someone comes in and starts throwing out nonsense, I call it BS.
Monks can contribute just fine ... out-damaging, or out maneuvering a fighter, however, are NOT arguments that hold water for me because the mechanics do not support such a claim. (Note: this is all by NO fault of the Monk mind you, Fighters are the BEST at ... well ... fighting.)