So I had this 'concept' (roleplaying wise) of a Witch that was more a seductress type, and figured this meant a good investment into CHA.
Mechanically though, this doesn't go so well, as Dip/Bluff are out in the cold a tad.
Any reason to take a good CHA as a Witch, or am I just lumbering myself with a 'Good in concept, bad in actuality' character?
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Well you don't need to go too crazy on having the charisma part. Magic makes up for anything you might be lacking, though a seductress mechanically might be better represented as a sorceress or a bard...ess?
Role-playing concept is fine, you could still call yourself a witch if you liked. No harm in that.
Pretty much, yeah. Paizo's Witch appears to be reliant on magic for social interactions. I've done something like this, but it involved heavy traits usage to pick up Diplomacy and Bluff as class skills
Yeah I was just considering that option.
I also take on board Morgs solid suggestion of the Bard or Sorceror, but theres just a certain 'je nais se quois' about doing it as a witch - I always end up doing things the hard way :)
Ease of Faith & Fast Talker appear two good Traits... assuming you can actually take a Faith trait as a notionally 'arcane based' caster. Then again perhaps the conversations giving that ease were with their dark agent - devils advocate, or actual devil...?!
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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So I had this 'concept' (roleplaying wise) of a Witch that was more a seductress type, and figured this meant a good investment into CHA.
Mechanically though, this doesn't go so well, as Dip/Bluff are out in the cold a tad.
Any reason to take a good CHA as a Witch, or am I just lumbering myself with a 'Good in concept, bad in actuality' character?
Cha is my Witch's second highest ability. I used a trait to pick up Bluff, and along with Intimidate she manages quite well in social situations.
The feat Cosmopolitan from the APG is also your friend, giving you two additional Int/Wis/Cha class skills along with a couple extra languages.
Ok so I'm not alone... :)
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If it's ok with your DM, maybe you can swap out your INT-based caster witch into a CHA-based caster:
- Swap out her spells-per-day and spells-known for the sorcerer progression.
- Keep her bonus witch patron spell-list, hexes (make the powers based on her CHA instead of INT), and familiar.
- She doesn't get the sorcerer bonus feats, eschew materials, or bloodline powers.
Maybe?
I know it costs you some casting power, but I'd just consider taking a level of something like Rogue. It gives you all the class skills you need, more skill points to spend and sneak attack to boot.
Heck, if you don't mind taking two levels of rogue you could pick up evasion and a nice rogue talent like "Charmer" which gives you two rolls (take the best) each time you use Diplomacy. You might also give the archetypes from the APG a look. Something like "Spy" gives you a bonus on Bluff checks rather than trapfinding right at level 1.
I was recently contemplating a similar build for an NPC (using the Poisoner archetype. I realize it gives up a lot mechanically but there's great RP potential. I might even consider going for Arcane Trickster after level 6
I know it costs you some casting power, but I'd just consider taking a level of something like Rogue. It gives you all the class skills you need, more skill points to spend and sneak attack to boot.
I was going to say dis. Ev'rybody should take level of rogue - is good for you! Is perfect ingredient that goes in ev'rything. Sneak attack, skills, is wonderful. Now, if only you could be taking levels of half-orc, then you would be perfect.
Stay classy, comrades.
Wow, theres a lot of good isdeas kicking around here!
I like the Rogue concepts too, poisoner could be fun.
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My wife plays a Witch in my Kingmaker campaign.
She went INT/CHA and is the ruler of the kingdom.
At level 11, she has 20 Bluff, 26 Diplomacy, and a 24 Intimidate.
There are several traits available that make social skills into class skills.
Also, perish the thought, she took non-combat feats like Persuasive.
If you have a character concept in mind, play it. Don't worry so much about the numbers.
"She's one crazy witch!"
"That's ALMOST what I thought."
Anyway, even with the standard witch, I can totally see a decent charisma score. Sure, it doesn't do anything for your class abilities, but nobody (except powergamers who should be shipped to an isolated island where they do nuclear testing or something ;-)) says you must ignore ability scores that won't totally increase your power level or something.
But there are other options:
Sorcerers can be quite witchy. Take the proper bloodline and proper attitude and people will call you a witch without you telling them to! Some will even take the initiative and compare your weight to that of a cold duck...
And I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with changing the witch class so it's based off charisma. Ask your GM about this option.
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Make it an archtype:
Change Spells/Day and Spells Known progression from wizard-equivalent to sorcerer-equivalent. Spellcasting is spontaneous. Spellcasting and Hexing is CHA-based. Patron bonus spells, like sorcerer bloodline spells, don't count against spells known. Increase skill ranks per level to 4 + Int modifier.
I think at the playtest someone suggested to allow witches to choose at char creation which attribute should be their caster attribute.
Int = "normal" APG Witch
Wis = the old wise lady of the woods
cha = the seductress one
I like this idea and I houseruled this in my round.
Edit: And I'm total off the topic or at least a bit. :)
Interesting....
I have not played an arcane spell caster in quite some time, and this got me to thinking. In about three months, one of my players is going to run the Serpent's Skull AP and I get to play instead of DM for a change! I already have a Ranger character (my favorite class!) but this presents some possibilities.
I am looking for some help, especially with the Hexes, Patron and Familiar. So far the build looks like this (20 point buy):
Str: 13
Dex: 12 (maybe switch Dex/Con)
Con: 14
Int: 16 (14+2)
Wis: 10
Cha: 14
Feat: Cosmopolitan (Diplomacy and Perception), Extra Hex (most likely)
Skills: Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Spellcraft, and UMD (favored class bonus).
Patron(?): I am thinking of Agility, Animal or Elements (blaster), but Transformation also looks really intriguing.
Hex(?): Evil Eye, Slumber. Flight, Ward and Tongues look good also.
Familiar(?): Too many good ones. Bat (if Flight hex), Fox, Scorpion (always good to go first), Hawk or Owl.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
-- david
Papa.DRB
So I had this 'concept' (roleplaying wise) of a Witch that was more a seductress type, and figured this meant a good investment into CHA.
Mechanically though, this doesn't go so well, as Dip/Bluff are out in the cold a tad.
Any reason to take a good CHA as a Witch, or am I just lumbering myself with a 'Good in concept, bad in actuality' character?
Well, let's look at what the Charisma stat actually measures (from the PRD): Personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead & appearance
Only a quarter to a half of those traits (depending on how you interpret "personal magnetism") has to do with how your character looks. I'd say it's entirely reasonable to have an ugly high-charisma character or be gorgeous but with low charisma. The typical examples would be someone who is an inspiring natural leader but ugly, or a great looking slimeball who reeks of "something wrong".
So if you want to play a witch with only average Charisma, don't let that stop you from describing her as a seductress. She could in fact have great looks, and the seducing part just comes from judicious (and perhaps subtle) use of Hexes and spells. No need to change up anything mechanically with the game. It's all in how you play it.
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I don't really see any reason for a DM to deny a straight switch of your casting attribute from INT to CHA. I certainly wouldn't, and I am pretty big on not breaking things that are fine.
Overall, INT is a much more powerful primary stat because it is mechanically powerful because it gives extra skill points. CHA only helps out social skills unless you are a Paladin or Cleric.
That considered, if I allowed such a thing, it would likely be under the caveat that one could not multiclass into Paladin specifically because that could be highly powerful for an Eldritch Knight build.
A level of Rogue is a simple solution, as is being human and using the bonus feat to take Cosmopolitan as suggested earlier.
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And I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with changing the witch class so it's based off charisma. Ask your GM about this option.
That would be my suggestion also. Not like it's going to effect the classes abilities and give you what you want. You lose a few skill points of course. Another thing would be ask if you could swap INT based Class Skills for CHA based ones?
S.
I have problems with using CHA for prepared spellcasting.
You can always make witches spontaneous casters, too!
But while most spontaneous casters have been using cha so far, and prepared ones int or wis, that doesn't mean you can't be a spellcaster preparing spells ahead of time but using his personality and force of character for his magic.
What one could do would be to create an appropriate sorcery bloodline that would inherit some of the witch skills, yet leave enough distinction between the two.
Or just switch int for cha. That would require a lot less work, and there would be a much bigger distinction between sorcerers and witches. While now both being cha-based casters, the only other similarities would be that they're both arcane spellcasters with weak BAB. They will still have different spell lists, different backgrounds, and different mechanics beyond the basic arcane spellcasting.
I have problems with using CHA for prepared spellcasting. What one could do would be to create an appropriate sorcery bloodline that would inherit some of the witch skills, yet leave enough distinction between the two.
Ummm... Paladin, anyone?
Ummm... Paladin, anyone?
I have problems with using CHA for prepared spellcasting. What one could do would be to create an appropriate sorcery bloodline that would inherit some of the witch skills, yet leave enough distinction between the two.
I quite forgot about them. On the other hand, they're but dabbling in magic, so they don't exactly force themsevles to the forefront of one's thoughts when contemplating spellcasters.
OK I'll chime in with why witch and why CHA.
The inital model I had was one of a deep down Louisiana voodoo type - which is VERY much a 'Witch', and every bit a valid an incarnation as a bunch of crones with pointed hats. That theme is out of keeping with a Sorc or Bard; the Witch is a pretty classic fit based on the sorts of Hexes Curses and other flavour they bring to bear.
Why CHA?
Well it's more about their ability to read people, convince people, and trick people, as opposed to being a 'party leader'.
Sure they could use Magic to do that, but it lacks a little...sophistication - for my liking anyway.
And also why a high CHA, well, if you've seen those Creole women...
"Reading" people is in the territory of Intelligence and Wisdom, not Charisma.
Well more Wisdom than Int, as its an intuitive function.
CHA is the mechanic though, and is also the stat for persuasion.
Of course common sense would tell us that it takes a degree of intelligence to build a good lie, wisdom to consider its believability, and charm in order to tell it.
When I think witch, I can't help think Discworld and Lancre witches: Granny Weatherwax & Nanny Ogg.
They do have a number of talents, but bookish knowledge is not their forte. In fact, they don't like books. They get in the way of learning things.
When those two know things, it's more from experience or making people tell them, or "knowledge in the bones". They don't bother with research and stuff like that ("So herbs can cure disease? Which herbs? And how do you prepare them?" - not something those witches ever bother about. They give you sugerwater, put on a good show and convince you to get better.).
It's a lot about being perceptive (in Pathfinder terms, skills like Profession (Herbalist), Survival, Sense Motive and Perception), but also about presence (Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy).
Other witches (Like Magrat) do bother with that research and book knowledge stuff and don't think it's nice to fool people into getting healthy again.
Based on that, Int, Wis and Cha can all work for Lancre type witches.
Intelligence is nice and all, but won't help you if you're staring down Death himself.
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More optimized a build would be
Half-Elf
Str: 7
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Chr: 12
Half-elf skill focus: diplomacy
Your traits will give you +1 to Diplomacy and make it a class skill; and potentially either intimidate or bluff as well, depending on how you view them.
After that witches are pretty feat-light; so you can grab persuasive. Also grab a familiar for a bonus and put bards to shame :).
I would like to point out that the Cosmopolitan feat will also make any 2 int/wis/cha skills into class skills, and give you 2 extra languages.
Discworld isn't exactly a basis for "serious" considerations about magic, it is after all mostly satire and comedy and those two are the guiding principles of all Discworld magic.When I think witch, I can't help think Discworld and Lancre witches: Granny Weatherwax & Nanny Ogg.
On the contrary, Narrativium would seem to be the game incarnate!
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Discworld isn't exactly a basis for "serious" considerations about magic, it is after all mostly satire and comedy and those two are the guiding principles of all Discworld magic.When I think witch, I can't help think Discworld and Lancre witches: Granny Weatherwax & Nanny Ogg.
I can't imagine a better bases for serious considerations than Discworld.
There might be humour involved, but that doesn't mean nothing is serious in Discworld novels. In fact, Pterry is a master when it comes to taking fantasy concepts and thinking them true, or to have stories with very serious themes.
The Lancre witches are great sources for witch concepts.
So I had this 'concept' (roleplaying wise) of a Witch that was more a seductress type, and figured this meant a good investment into CHA.
Mechanically though, this doesn't go so well, as Dip/Bluff are out in the cold a tad.
Any reason to take a good CHA as a Witch, or am I just lumbering myself with a 'Good in concept, bad in actuality' character?
Conceptually, I think you're looking at an Enchantment Wizard (or Enchantress, if you will). You may also want to look at the Controller or Manipulator specialty schools, if this is the type of character you want to roleplay.
Mechanically, the Witch class is fairly shackled to the "lone hermit in the woods with a cauldron" type of spellcaster.
How important is it that it says witch on the character sheet. There are several good cha based casters that can make fine witches.
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Another possibility (best combined with the Cosmopolitan Feat) is taking the Student of Philosophy Trait, which makes the parts of Bluff and Diplomacy you're likely to care about as a seducer (persuading and lying) Int-based. And all Witches have high Int. Grab another Trait to make one of Diplomacy, Bluff, and Sense Motive a class skill, and you're good to go.
The Human alternate racial Trait Focused Study also lets you get Skill Focus in all social skills eventually if you like. So there's that.
With that stuff, you could easily have a 1st level character that looked like this in 20 point-buy:
Str 7
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 18 (16+2)
Wis 12
Cha 12
Traits: World Traveler, Student of Philosophy,
Familiar: Thrush,
Feats: Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Cosmopolitan (Bluff, Sense Motive)
Skills: Bluff +8/5, Diplomacy +15/12, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (Nature) +8, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +8, Use Magic Device +5,
And there you have it. An extremely charming Witch who still manages to be pretty baseline effective. Starts with only one Hex, which is sad, but can spend pretty much all her Feats on stuff like that from then on. And gets better at the stuff you really care about in social stuff by sheer virtue of raising Int.
By 10th level, I'd expect Int 24, and Bluff +20/14, Diplomacy +30/24, Intimidate +14, Sense Motive +14, and a +6 to whichever non-Diplomacy one you took a Skill focus in. That's...really solid, actually.
Just a point on the relevance of Cha and Int for social interaction: Int is important in that it buys you skill points (of which social interaction skills like Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, etc. can take up a lot of.) A high Int character with lots of ranks in these skills might just reflect learning how to make one seem more attractive/desirable rather than it coming naturally (through a high Charisma.)
