I don't mean to butt in on a private fight, but didn't the ride check to avoid taking damage eat up sam's swift action in the next round?
Also, is the eidolon a humanoid? - you could get around that by sharing I suppose.
Also, if the eidolon grows a size category doesn't that put it in reach of your deadly defence? - Of course two ride checks to negate hits makes the odds of crit / stunning it slim.
Crikey you are right. It would not have mattered in this case but it is important to remember for next time.
Darn it. Deadly defense was the reason I chose the build. I suggest a rewind in time(at least so I can get my attacks of opportunity in. He is actually in reach anyway because he never five foot stepped away, and the summoner never cast defensively so that should have been an AoO. I think late night battles when my brain is fried are a bad idea. I forgot to take combat reflexes also, but I won't try to get that in there. I will take it as a lesson learned to pay more attention next time.
He also could not use ride checks on the eidolon, it must have the mount evo for him to do that. You simply can not use it as a combat mount without that.
I thought he had changed that. I guess there will be a rematch. With all the things I forgot to do I expect things to be different this time. :)
He also could not use ride checks on the eidolon as it is not comabt trained, it must have the mount evo for him to do that. You simply can not use it as a combat mount without that as it is not formed for such, says so in the evo.
I thought he had changed that. I guess there will be a rematch. With all the things I forgot to do I expect things to be different this time. :)
might be good for you guys to get a 3rd party to look over your builds. Mistakes happen, change of a build, rule change ya didn't notice and just plain you forgot to add that +1 for such and such.
might be good for you guys to get a 3rd party to look over your builds. Mistakes happen, change of a build, rule change ya didn't notice and just plain you forgot to add that +1 for such and such.
I thought he had changed that. I guess there will be a rematch. With all the things I forgot to do I expect things to be different this time. :)
It is easier to play something you leveled up over time than it is to have to remember every ability something has. I will probably have things written down next time, at least as far as strategy anyway so I don't forget class abilities.
Yes it is, its always harder when you jump into x level when you have not used that PC before. You forget things ya would have known.
I was just saying ya might want to recruit one of the other guys who like to crunch the number and do the wild theory craft builds to double check for yall. Sometimes you simply over look whats in your face when you just making a high level build is all.
I will try to recruit another official tomorrow.
You're right hawk, it did eat my swift. I'll keep a better check on that. The share spells base class feature allows me to target him with any spell regardless of his creature type. I had planned to take a 5' step back and use the reach against him, but I forgot to bother with it. The enlarged damage increase was only 4.5 per hit so he was still pretty roasted.
Unfortunately I still could not have used mounted combat. Trick riding kind of fools you into thinking it's a very good feat, it just allows a use before and after your turn in a single round (but not consecutive rounds).
I already told you I botched round one, if you want to keep the same initiatives, I can show you.
Anyways, I'm out for the night, but have all day tomorrow to pursue this.
You're right hawk, it did eat my swift. I'll keep a better check on that. The share spells base class feature allows me to target him with any spell regardless of his creature type. I had planned to take a 5' step back and use the reach against him, but I forgot to bother with it. The enlarged damage increase was only 4.5 per hit so he was still pretty roasted.
Unfortunately I still could not have used mounted combat. Trick riding kind of fools you into thinking it's a very good feat, it just allows a use before and after your turn in a single round (but not consecutive rounds).
I already told you I botched round one, if you want to keep the same initiatives, I can show you.
Anyways, I'm out for the night, but have all day tomorrow to pursue this.
We both made mistakes with the builds. I suggest we fix them, and do it again. Same initiative rolls.
If I was the fighter I would've forgone the manyshot feat and taken Toughness. That's a extra 20 hitpoints off the bat. Every little helps.
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I will try to recruit another official tomorrow.
Even just having the builds open for a day on a board to let people argue over them would work out most of the kinks.
I agree with most of what was posted as to rules slips, which is part my fault as sleepy DM/rules offical.
As someone else said the base issue is the custom items on an eidolon, which are unbalancing. But they are also allowed based on the rules of this fight, so it is what it is.
Calypso Poxta
Male Half-Elf Summoner 20
Alignment: CG
Str: 7 (-2)
Dex: 26 (+8) [7 points, +6 enhance., +2 levels, +3 inherent]
Con: 28 (+9) [10 points, +6 enhance., +2 levels, +2 inherent, +2 racial]
Int: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Wis: 10 (+0) [0 points]
Cha: 16 (+3) [7 points, +1 levels]
Class and Racial Abilities:
Low Light Vision
Elf Blood
Keen Senses
Cantrips
Eidolon
Life Link
Summon Monster I-IX (Sp)
Bond Senses
Shield Ally (Ex)
Maker’s Call (Su)
Transposition (Su)
Aspect (Su)
Greater shield ally (Su)
Life bond (Su)
Merge Forms (Su)
Greater Aspect (Su) *see eidolon*
Twin Form (Su)
Hit Dice: 20d8+200
Hit Points: 290
AC: 47 (+11 Armor, +4 Shield Ally, +8 Dex, +8 Nat. AC, +5 Deflect., +1 Insight) [39 Flat Footed, 24 Touch]
Init: 12 (+8 Dexterity, +4 Feat)
Speed: 30ft
Saves:
Fortitude: 21 (6 Base, 9 Con., 2 Feat, 4 Shield Ally)
Reflex: 20 (6 Base, 8 Dex., 2 Feat, 4 Shield Ally)
Will: 18 (12 Base, 2 Feat, 4 Shield Ally)
BAB:
Ranged Atk: None
Melee Atk: +13/+8/+3 (BAB -2 Str)
CMB: 13 (15 BAB, -2 Str)
CMD: 19 (15 BAB, -2 Str, +5 Deflect., +1 Insight)
Skills:
Ride 63 (20 Ranks, +20 Competence, +6 Skill Focus, +8 Racial, +8 Dex., +3 Trained, -2 Armor Check)
Spellcraft 23 (20 Ranks, +3 Trained)
Feats:
Skill Focus: Ride (Half-Elf)
Mounted Combat(1 HD)
Improved Initiative (3 HD)
Endurance (5 HD)
Diehard (7 HD)
Trick Riding (9 HD)
Toughness (11 HD)
Improved Shared Spells (13 HD)
Quicken Spell (15 HD)
Lightning Reflexes (17 HD)
Iron Will (19 HD)
Equipment:
Manual of Quickness in Action +3
Manual of Bodily Health +2
Celestial Armor +5
Ring of Protection +5
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone
Vest of Constitution +6
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Boots of Riding +20
Money:
-880,000-
82500
55000
38400
50000
5000
36000
36000
40000
-537100-
Spells Known/Per Day:
0-lvl: acid Splash, detect Magic, light, mending, message, read magic
1st-lvl: enlarge person, expeditious retreat, Identify, reduce person, rejuvenate eidolon(lesser), shield
6 per day
2nd-lvl: barkskin, blur, glitterdust, haste, see invisibility, summon eidolon, windwall
6 per day
3rd-lvl: dispel magic, evolution surge, fly, invisibility (greater), locate creature, rejuvenate eidolon
6 per day
4th-lvl: evolution surge(greater), mage’s faithful hound, purified calling, summon monster V, transmogrify, wall of stone
5 per day
5th-lvl: dispel magic (greater), heroism (greater), rejuvenate eidolon (greater), teleport (greater), true seeing
5 Per day
6th-lvl: dimensional lock, maze, protection from spells, summon monster IX, teleportation circle
Calypso always walks just behind Apocalyptos into dangerous situations.
Huge(Long) Eidolon Quadruped 15
Alignment: CG
Str: 52 (+21) [14 Base, +3 Levels, +8 sum. lvl, +16 Huge, 5 Inherent, 6 Enhance.] {54 Enlarged}
Dex: 28 (+9) [14 Base, +8 sum. lvl, -4 Huge, +4 inherent, +6 Enhance.] {26 Enlarged}
Con: 21 (+5) [13 Base, +8 Huge]
Int: 7 (-2) [7 Base]
Wis: 10 (+0) [10 Base]
Cha: 11 (+0) [11 Base]
Class and Racial Abilities:
Darkvision
Link
Share Spells
Evasion
Devotion
Multiattack
Improved Evasion
Pounce
Rend
Trip
Evolutions: 31 Points (26 base +5 Half Elf Summoner)
(1)Pounce
(2)Trip
(10)Huge
(1)Improved Damage: Claws
(1)Racial Skill: Perception
(2)Rend
(2)Limbs (Arms)
(2)Limbs (Arms)
(1)Claws
(1)Claws
(1)Claws
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
-Summoner- (6 points, costs 3 via Greater Aspect)
(1)Racial Skill (Ride)
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Improved Natural Armor
(1)Scent
Hit Dice: 15d10+75
Hit Points: 157
AC: 55 (31 Natural Armor, +8 Armor, +9 Dex, -2 Size) [47 Flat Footed, 17 Touch] {-2 Enlarged}
Init: 13 (+9 Dexterity, +4 Feat) {-1 Enlarged}
Speed: 40ft
Saves:
Fortitude: 18 (9 Base, 5 Con., 4 Resistance)
Reflex: 22 (9 Base, 9 Dex., 4 Resistance)
Will: 11 (5 Base, 2 Feat, 4 Resistance) [+4 Moral vs. Enchantment]
BAB:
Ranged Atk: None
Melee Atk: 1 Bite +35 (2d6+34), 6 Claws +35 (3d6+34), Rend [3d6/4d6+36 Enlarged]
(Attack Breakdown: BAB 15, +21 Str., +5 Enhance., -2 Size, -4 Power Attack) [Same Enlarged]
(Damage Breakdown: 2d6 [Huge Bite]; 3d6[Huge++ Claw], +21 Str, +5 Enhance, +8 Power Attack)
Rend: Every 2nd claw in 1 round; 3d6+31 (1½ Str Bonus) [4d6+33 Enlarged]
Space: 15 ft; Reach: 10 ft [20 ft; 15 ft Enlarged]
CMB: 45 (15 BAB, +21 Str., +2 Size, +5 Enhance) [-4 During Power Attack] {48 Enlarged}
CMD: 47 (15 BAB, +21 Str., +9 Dex., +2 Size) [49 Enlarged]
Skills:
Perception 26 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained, +8 Racial)
Intimidate 18 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained)
Fly 23 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained, +9 Dex., -4 Size) [20 Enlarged]
Acrobatics 27 (15 Ranks, +3 Trained, +9 Dex) [26 Enlarged]
Feats:
Combat Reflexes (1 HD)
Power Attack (3 HD)
Improved natural Attack (5 HD)
Endurance (7 HD)
Diehard (9 HD)
Improved Initiative (11 HD)
Iron Will (13 HD)
Bodyguard (15 HD)
Equipment:
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5
Amulet of mighty Fists +5
Manual of Quickness in Action +4
Bracers of Armor +8
Belt of Dexterity +6
Mask of Strength +6
Cloak of Resistance +4
*Permanent See Invisibility clvl 20*
Money:
-537100-
137500
125000
110000
64000
36000
36000
16000
5000
-7600-
He also has some huge saddlebags but, could not find em in the Core Book, pretty sure they are not over 7600 though
Lemme know if you have any questions or if it all looks solid, Wraith/ciretose. All i did was up the celestial armor to +5, the deflection to +5, ditch the robe, and add enlarged stats to Eddie.
If I have enough time, I'll have a version with no custom items. Maybe we'll fight with that instead, since I've been getting nothing but complaints about it.
Calypsopoxta you still have some issues I saw with a fast overview.
1:You still lack the mount evo and 2. You can only take improved nat armor a max of 4 times total, you have it 8. I know you gave 4 to each but you still are limited to a total of 4 max. Not 4 each.
Calypsopoxta you still have some issues I saw with a fast overview.
1:You still lack the mount evo and 2. You can only take improved nat armor a max of 4 times total, you have it 8. I know you gave 4 to each but you still are limited to a total of 4 max. Not 4 each.
I was under the impression trick riding removed the negative for unsuited mounts, but it's just when riding bareback, I'll make the appropriate adjustments, I'm almost done making it RAW without slot changed items, so I'll add that in. Imp Nat Armor improves natural armor by 2 each, 4 pts = 8 natural armor. Nothing in RAW states my summoner is limited as if he had the same evolutions my Eidolon has, just that he can't select anything the Eidolon could not possess. I won't back down on this one without an errata or dev response. The reasoning is if my eidolon has max attacks, my summoner can take none and if my eidolon has any non-stackable evolutions my summoner cannot take them(virtually every evolution), which betrays the intention of the class feature.
** spoiler omitted **...I think it has been a couple years since I posted on this site.
Pathfinder is good reading, but it just didn't fix the real problems with 3.5. Maybe that wasn't the aim exactly, I dunno.
I don't really play the game anymore (mostly computer games for me now), but if I do play again it is going to be Labyrinth Lord or Dark Dungeons or something similar. Casters (well wizards) still rule at higher levels, but it is much closer, particularly with stuff like weapon mastery in Dark Dungeons.
Okay, stepping off the soapbox, what did the fighter guy expect? These classes just are not equal. He would have been better off taking a trait or multi-classing to get use magic device. That is the only way I can think of he might win this one.
Heck looking at the stats on the eidolon I'm not sure the fighter could beat it head to head with no summoner involved.
Funny thing is, even ghetto casting with scrolls and wands I bet the fighter could take out the eidolon easily, without swinging a blade. (not considering the summoner just now)
There is just too big a gulf between any caster class (even with with only 6th level spells) and a pure melee. Maybe a rogue or something could use some poison, or a monk could do some interesting things, but even then if you put some thought into various magic items to buy, you can get around anything a pure melee can reasonably do with out using UMD or some specific magic item.
This all began when I read that a fighter would totally destroy an Eidolon, on repeated occasions, whenever someone wanted to simply discuss the strength of it. I started another thread to discuss that specifically. Eventually Wraith proposed we make builds and have the classes duke it out, for fun, and here we are.
I personally think the Eidolon had been severely underestimated, and wanted to really open peoples' eyes.
Imp Nat Armor improves natural armor by 2 each, 4 pts = 8 natural armor. Nothing in RAW states my summoner is limited as if he had the same evolutions my Eidolon has, just that he can't select anything the Eidolon could not possess. I won't back down on this one without an errata or dev response.
The evo lists the max time it may be taken, not the max time an eidolon may take it. The power may only be selected 1 time per 5 summoner levels. There is no need for the devs to step in as the power is clear. It is limited by your summoner level.
The evo lists the max time it may be taken, not the max time an eidolon may take it. The power may only be selected 1 time per 5 summoner levels. There is no need for the devs to step in as the power is clear. It is limited by your summoner level.Imp Nat Armor improves natural armor by 2 each, 4 pts = 8 natural armor. Nothing in RAW states my summoner is limited as if he had the same evolutions my Eidolon has, just that he can't select anything the Eidolon could not possess. I won't back down on this one without an errata or dev response.
And as such, my Eidolon can take it 4 times, allowing my Summoner to take it a maximum of 4 times.
Wraithstrike, make sure your fighter isn't wearing 2 cloaks. Nobody else noticed it because they're to busy tearing me to pieces.
The evo lists the max time it may be taken, not the max time an eidolon may take it. The power may only be selected 1 time per 5 summoner levels. There is no need for the devs to step in as the power is clear. It is limited by your summoner level.Imp Nat Armor improves natural armor by 2 each, 4 pts = 8 natural armor. Nothing in RAW states my summoner is limited as if he had the same evolutions my Eidolon has, just that he can't select anything the Eidolon could not possess. I won't back down on this one without an errata or dev response.
And as such, my Eidolon can take it 4 times, allowing my Summoner to take it a maximum of 4 times.
Wraithstrike, make sure your fighter isn't wearing 2 cloaks. Nobody else noticed it because they're to busy tearing me to pieces.
Good catch on the cloak. I did the item slot thing at the bottom to try to avoid such issues.
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon’s hide grows
thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus
to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for
every five levels the summoner possesses.
By RAW SS is correct. The evolution is limited by Summoner level, not characters available x summoner level.
PS: I have to fix the double cloak issue. I will be back as soon as that is done. Ciretose may be needed to make a call on the Imp natural armor evolution.
By RAW SS is wrong. Neither recipient is benefiting from more than 4 of the evolution.
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|
Improved Natural Armor (Ex): An eidolon’s hide grows
thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus
to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for
every five levels the summoner possesses.By RAW SS is correct. The evolution is limited by Summoner level, not characters available x summoner level.
PS: I have to fix the double cloak issue. I will be back as soon as that is done. Ciretose may be needed to make a call on the Imp natural armor evolution.
I can see how the wording is unclear, but my read of the intention is to cap the bonus at +8 for a 20th level summoner. But as written it means he can only use it 4 times (in other words you can give 4 to your eidelon and 4 to your summoner, but not 8 to both)
My reading would be that using the greater aspect ability (assuming he sacrifices from the eidelons evolutions to do so as written) he should be able to use 4 evolutions at 20th level to get the +8 and put them where he wants, but only 4 total evolutions can be dedicated to natural armor.
But I will admit this is probably an issue for the FAQ.
By RAW SS is wrong. Neither recipient is benefiting from more than 4 of the evolution.
No the evo may be taken 1 time per 5 summoner levels total. Not based on what it it placed on. The evo stats this. It is based off level no on who it is on. You would need to be 40th level to take it 8 times.
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By RAW SS is wrong. Neither recipient is benefiting from more than 4 of the evolution.
The issue for me that pushed the decision over is that in reading aspect you are is that technically diverting evolution points from the Eidolon to you, not creating evolutions specifically for the summoner. Therefore the created points are subject to the limitations as they originate for use by the eidolon and are diverted.
This is where the battle takes place.
Wraith, confused on your build, especially since your opponent is optimizing.
Shouldn't you be using brilliant weapons so you can auto-hit him? Let him try to negate 4 crits! And they should be Wounding, too, to take advantage of the enemy's high HD.
Second, where is your ability to fly?
Thirdly, I could have sworn there was a karmic strike ability for fighters in PF around, which would severely punish ANYTHING daring to attack you, especially with doublestrike.
BTW, Seeker, you can't get Dodge bonuses on a magic item, they only come from skill...holdover from 3.5.
===Aelryinth
By that logic, as no evolution can be taken twice that does not stack:
An eidolon with any of these evolutions cannot have a summoner with the same evolution.
Bite
Climb
Gills
Improved Damage
Magical Attacks
Mount
Pounce
Pull
Push
Same Resistance
Scent
Same Skilled
Swim
Constrict (is serpentine summoner)
Energy Attacks
Flight
Gore
Same Immunity
Rake
Rend
Trample
Tremorsense
Trip
The entire 3 and 4 point lists, which include spell resistance.
My side of this fight has come under excessive scrutiny since the inception of this fight. It seems there are simply to many factors involving the summoner/eidolon that are left unanswered by devs/faqs to continue, so I will no longer participate in this experiment. I should have never started my first thread, I realize now that I was asking for trouble. I will be sure to consider my threads more seriously in the future.
Aelryinth: The item cost table has a cost AC Bonus (other), with a subtext that includes dodge.
BTW, Seeker, you can't get Dodge bonuses on a magic item, they only come from skill...holdover from 3.5.
===Aelryinth
Don't think I said anything about that. Maybe ya have my comments confused with someone else.
I fixed all known errors. I still have to fix the archer. He basically has the same things as Tim so it should not take as long.
Anyway here is Tim 3.0
Human Fighter (Two-Weapon Warrior Variant)
Alignment Neutral
Coraliss the Crit Master has been separated from his party somehow when the evil summoner appears, and tries to kill him. Who will prevail the good(but neutrally aligned) Coraliss, rescuer of princesses and smiter of fiends or some random summoner dude.
Str: 32 (+11) [5 points, +2 race, +1 levels, +5 inherent, +6 enhance.]
Dex: 24 (+7) [[5 points, +6 enhance, +4 inherent ]
Con: 20 (+5) [5 points, +2 enhance., +4 inherent]
Int: 11 (+0) [1 points]
Wis: 20 (+5) [5 points, +6 item]
Cha: 9 (-1) [-1 points]
Class and Racial abilities:
Defensive Flurry (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-weapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against melee attacks until the beginning of his next turn. This bonus increases by +1 every four levels after 3rd. This ability replaces armor training 1 and 2.
Twin Blades (Ex): At 5th level, a two-weapon warrior gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when making a full attack with two weapons or a double weapon. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels after 5th. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
Improved Balance (Ex): At 11th level, the attack penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by –1 for a twoweapon warrior. Alternatively, he may use a one-handed weapon in his off-hand, treating it as if it were a light weapon with the normal light weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Equal Opportunity (Ex): At 13th level, when a two-weapon warrior makes an attack of opportunity, he may attack once with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Perfect Balance (Ex): At 15th level, the penalties for fighting with two weapons are reduced by an additional –1 for a two-weapon warrior. This benefit stacks with improved balance. If he is using a one-handed weapon in his off hand, treating it as a light weapon, he uses the normal light weapon penalties. This ability replaces armor training 4.
Deft Doublestrike (Ex): At 17th level, when a two-weapon warrior hits an opponent with both weapons, he can make a disarm or sunder attempt (or trip, if one or both weapons can be used to trip) against that opponent as an immediate action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
Deadly Defense (Ex): At 19th level, when a twoweapon warrior makes a full attack with both weapons, every creature that hits him with a melee attack before the beginning of his next turn provokes an attack of opportunity from the warrior. This ability replaces armor mastery.
Hit Dice: 20d10+120
Hit Points: 230
AC: 29 (+11 Armor, +7 Dexterity, +1 haste) [Touch 18(23 after full round attack) flat-footed 25]
AC is 34 after a full round attack.
Init: +13 (+7 Dex, +4 Feat, +1 Competence, +1 Luck)
Speed: 60ft
Saves:
Fortitude +24 [+12 base, +5 Con, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Reflex +20 [+6 base, +7 Dex, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck]
Will +20 [+6 base, +5 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resist., +1 Comp., +1 Luck], 1/day re-roll failed save
BAB: +20
Melee Atk:
Main Hand +43/+43/+38/+33/+28 (1d6+25 / 18-20 x3) Enlarged damage 1d8+26+) 2d8 sonic damage on a crit
Offhand +43/+38/+33 (1d6+25 / 18-20 x3) Enlarged damage 1d8+26
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +11 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste, +4(Twin Blades), Perfect +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Greater Weapon Focus, Balance (-1 TWF Penalty)
(Damage Breakdown: 11 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +4(Twin Blades), +2 Weapon Spec, +2 Greater Weapon Spec, Two Weapon Rend allows for 1d10+16(18 if large) addition damage if a primary and off hand attack hit)
Ranged Atk: +26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+39/ 19-20x3; average 44.5) range 110 feet
(Attack Breakdown: 20 BAB, +7 Dex, +5 Enhancement, +1 Competence, +1 haste, -2 Rapid Fire, -6 Deadly Aim)
(Damage Breakdown: 4.5 average of 1d8, 11 Strength, +5 Enhancement, +12 Deadly Aim, +1 Competence)
CMB: +31 (BAB 20+Strength 11)
CMD: 48 (cannot be grappled, cannot be disarmed while wielding a scimitar, 53 vs sunder while wielding a scimitar)
Skills:
Acrobatics +25 (20 ranks, +7 Dex, +1 Competence, -3(Armor check penalty))
Perception +30 (20 ranks, +5 Wis, +5 Competence,)
Feats:
Weapon Focus: Scimitar (scimitar)
Weapon Specialization: scimitar (Fighter bonus)
Iron Will (1 HD)
Point Blank Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Initiative (3 HD)
Precise Shot (Fighter bonus)
Improved Iron Will (5 HD)
Deadly Aim (Fighter bonus)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting (7 HD)
Rapid Shot (Fighter bonus)
Critical Focus (9 HD)
Combat Reflexes (Fighter bonus)
Double Slice (11 HD)
Improved Critical (Scimitar) (Fighter bonus)
Two-Weapon Rend (13 HD)
Greater Weapon Focus: Scimitar (Fighter bonus)
Improved Precise Shot (15 HD)
Staggering Critical (Fighter bonus)
Lunge (17 HD)
Greater Weapon Specialization: Scimitar (Fighter bonus)
Stunning Critical (19 HD)
Quick Draw (Fighter bonus)
Equipment: 880,000g WBL
+5 celestial armor 38400
+5 Keen composite longbows (mighty +11) 73500
2 +1 brilliant energy scimitars 50315 x 2= 100630
ring of freedom of movement(ring slot 1) 40,000
Ring of Counterspells(maze) 4000+960(for the spell itself)=5960
manual of quickness in action +5 (already applied) 137,500
manual of gainful exercise +4 (already applied) 110,000
manual of bodily health +4 (already applied) 110,000
belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity) 90,000
headband of inspired wisdom +6 36000
boots of speed 12000
Dust of Disappearance 3500
Dust of Appearance 1500
greater bracers of archery 25000
eyes of the eagle 2500
pale green prism ioun stone 30,000
pink rhomboid ioun stone 8000
luckstone 20,000
20 +1 axiomatic arrows 7,321
20 +1 anarchic arrows 7,321
20 +1 Unholy arrows 7,321
40 arrows 2 gp
Handy Haversack 2000
potion of fly x 2= 1500
Elixir of Vision 250(+10 competence bonus on Perception checks for 1 hour )
Potion of Enlarge Person 250 x 3 = 750
potion of cure light x2 100
potion of cure moderate x2 600
Gold
Body Slots taken up
Belt: belt of physical might +6 (strength and dexterity)
Eyes:eyes of the eagle
Feet: boots of speed
Headband:headband of inspired wisdom +6
Ring 1: ring of freedom of movement
Ring2: Ring of Counterspells(maze) 4000+960(for the spell itself)=5960
Shoulders: Cloak of Displacement, Major 50000
Wrist: greater bracers of archery
It is more efficient for the caster to help me with being target by mind affect than it is for them to cast displacement on me since it only last rounds per level. I know there are not casters here, but this is assumed to be an adventuring build. Protection from evil, and mind blank are more efficient.
I made the scimitars brilliant energy.
I pray to the dice gods to get me past round one. I think I have a chance to win if I do that.
PS: I have been editing since my last post so I still have to check to see if anyone else found anything while I was away.
edit and PS2: I am checking the math to make sure I am still within the wealth guidelines.
This is where the battle takes place.Wraith, confused on your build, especially since your opponent is optimizing.
Shouldn't you be using brilliant weapons so you can auto-hit him? Let him try to negate 4 crits! And they should be Wounding, too, to take advantage of the enemy's high HD.
Second, where is your ability to fly?
Thirdly, I could have sworn there was a karmic strike ability for fighters in PF around, which would severely punish ANYTHING daring to attack you, especially with doublestrike.
BTW, Seeker, you can't get Dodge bonuses on a magic item, they only come from skill...holdover from 3.5.
===Aelryinth
Celestial armor allows me to fly, and I guess I would be going with brilliant energy. I know of no imitation of karmic strike other than my deadly defense ability.
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By that logic, as no evolution can be taken twice that does not stack:
An eidolon with any of these evolutions cannot have a summoner with the same evolution.
Bite
Climb
Gills
Improved Damage
Magical Attacks
Mount
Pounce
Pull
Push
Same Resistance
Scent
Same Skilled
Swim
Constrict (is serpentine summoner)
Energy Attacks
Flight
Gore
Same Immunity
Rake
Rend
Trample
Tremorsense
TripThe entire 3 and 4 point lists, which include spell resistance.
My side of this fight has come under excessive scrutiny since the inception of this fight. It seems there are simply to many factors involving the summoner/eidolon that are left unanswered by devs/faqs to continue, so I will no longer participate in this experiment. I should have never started my first thread, I realize now that I was asking for trouble. I will be sure to consider my threads more seriously in the future.
Aelryinth: The item cost table has a cost AC Bonus (other), with a subtext that includes dodge.
No.
Natural armor has a specific limiting factor. To quote "This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses."
I have not gone one by one, as the ones you listed do not have factors that limit how many times you can take the evolution. To the contrary, most seem to have rules on how to do so.
The attention has been on your build from me only because the questions have been about your build. If you have a challenge to Wraithstrikes build, I'll arbitrate it, but so far the corrections you pointed out he agreed to and corrected.
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This is where the battle takes place.
As an aside, this is why I would advocate the 20 level fight starting at 1st. Both of these builds are so complicated at this point that I wonder if they would be playable if starting at first and developing up.
This would also deal with the questionable allocations, as each level can be looked at as it goes up in pieces. This is especially true with both of these classes, as evolutions and feats aren't put on all at once in actual game play.
This is where the battle takes place.As an aside, this is why I would advocate the 20 level fight starting at 1st. Both of these builds are so complicated at this point that I wonder if they would be playable if starting at first and developing up.
This would also deal with the questionable allocations, as each level can be looked at as it goes up in pieces. This is especially true with both of these classes, as evolutions and feats aren't put on all at once in actual game play.
In a real game you can't get all the items you want. To simulate that I would say a the (WBL - percentage equal to what we should be spending on disposables) is more realistic, but this is just a fight to me. If I was trying to simulate an "actual" build I would have made up more limiting rules than what I did.
Could you check the math on Tim? I keep getting different numbers. The individual prices on items are correct, but I keep adding and totaling different numbers.
edit:nevermind. I see he has withdrawn, and my opt-fu has grown weak or maybe it is all the splat books made me dependent on tricks.
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This is where the battle takes place.As an aside, this is why I would advocate the 20 level fight starting at 1st. Both of these builds are so complicated at this point that I wonder if they would be playable if starting at first and developing up.
This would also deal with the questionable allocations, as each level can be looked at as it goes up in pieces. This is especially true with both of these classes, as evolutions and feats aren't put on all at once in actual game play.
In a real game you can't get all the items you want. To simulate that I would say a the (WBL - percentage equal to what we should be spending on disposables) is more realistic, but this is just a fight to me. If I was trying to simulate an "actual" build I would have made up more limiting rules than what I did.
Could you check the math on Tim? I keep getting different numbers. The individual prices on items are correct, but I keep adding and totaling different numbers.
edit:nevermind. I see he has withdrawn, and my opt-fu has grown weak or maybe it is all the splat books made me dependent on tricks.
Your opponent bailed a few posts back.
his build is already posted, if someone who knows the summoner halfway decently can make the needed edits and correct things, its mostly a numbers game.
Just run it twice, once with each side winning initiative. He's already told you what he's going to do. Just get rid of what he can't do and run it again.
I think Brilliant Weapons might do the job, getting rid of any armor/shield benefits. Too bad they don't just make it a touch attack.
==Aelryinth
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"...so I will no longer participate in this experiment."
I can't do OMGNATURAL armor so I am takingmy toys and going home. Sheesh. Why not try it with that revision and see how it works versus storming off? If it produces a more balanced fight, perhaps the interpretation is correct.
Anyhow, for the record, I would agree with the assesment that the evoloution bonus max is correctly interpreted here:
"My reading would be that using the greater aspect ability (assuming he sacrifices from the eidelons evolutions to do so as written) he should be able to use 4 evolutions at 20th level to get the +8 and put them where he wants, but only 4 total evolutions can be dedicated to natural armor."
You are diverting from the eidelon's evoloution pool which clearly has the limitations based on the Summoner's level as noted in the same thread. The summoner does not have his own evoloution pool. This iswhy he needs to siphon off the eidelon's using Greater Aspect. It even notes that the Eidelon's evoloution points are diverted in the language of the ability so I think that resolves the concern without the need for FAQ or errata.
Let it be known that I love the summoner class and am interested in farily applying the features of this new class in my next tabletop game. That's why I endure the "X class versus Y class" threads... to learn and judge for myself. IMO, there are lots of classes that don't stack up 1 v 1... this is why most games are played in a party of characters. Saying a class is broken because it can't solo another class one on one is, in and of itself, breaking the game IMO.
Wraith can probably run the fight himself...it's basically jsut a number tossup. Run once with him winning init, and once with the Summoner.
Also, for the ride check neutralizing the hit, the correct order is:
I hit. Do you neutralize the check?
No.
Great! I crit and do xxxxxx.
What?! of course I neutralize it!
Sorry, we're past hit stage to damage stage, and you can't neutralize damage. I hit with my second attack. Do you neutralize it?
Um....
i.e. you told him which hit to negate. He's got to pick, one by one. And if you get even one stun off, it's basically all over, I'm betting.
==Aelryinth
