Hi All,
I'm at the gaming table so hence the quickfire question.
Does Improved invisibility allow a rogue to attack and apply sneak damage to a full round of attacks every round for the duration of the spell?
My thinking is that the first attack every round will have the sneak bonus but that the subsequent attacks should have a reduced chance of landing as sneak attacks.
Thanks in advance.
Does Improved invisibility allow a rogue to attack and apply sneak damage to a full round of attacks every round for the duration of the spell?
Yes, assuming the victim can't see invis, doesn't have an alternate form of sight that works, doesn't have uncanny dodge, etc.
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Hi All,
I'm at the gaming table so hence the quickfire question.
Does Improved invisibility allow a rogue to attack and apply sneak damage to a full round of attacks every round for the duration of the spell?
My thinking is that the first attack every round will have the sneak bonus but that the subsequent attacks should have a reduced chance of landing as sneak attacks.
Thanks in advance.
From what I read in RAW, yes, they would get their sneak attack on every hit while under improved invisibility.
Note, they can also get it on every hit by flanking. They do not even need to be invisible for that trick.
Edited to add: Yep, Dire Mongoose is correct on the sight, uncanny dodge, etc..
By the rules, sneak attack is applied to every attack since the opponent is denied their dexderity to every attack. There are other ways for them to get sneak attack on every attack, like flanking, so this is not that big of a deal. Their damage output is also completely in line with the other melee classes, so no nerf is really needed.
Would that still apply though, if the target had Blind Fighting, allowing them to retain their Dex modifier against invisible foes?
Yep, unless the victim gets some kind of defense it is a quick death.
Barbarians and rogues have that kind of defense, Blind-Fight also works.
Hi All,
Does Improved invisibility allow a rogue to attack and apply sneak damage to a full round of attacks every round for the duration of the spell?
Assuming someone is stupid enough to stand there for more than one round, yes. They're staying invisible, they deny their opponent their dex bonus, so each attack is a sneak attack (including attacks of opportunity for trying to run away)
My thinking is that the first attack every round will have the sneak bonus but that the subsequent attacks should have a reduced chance of landing as sneak attacks.
Its not how it works in the rules. If you're the dm and your players are pulling this one on you, live, learn, and adapt for the next session, its a VERY common tactic at higher levels.
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Invisibility, Greater is a 4th level spell (available to wizards at level 7). If the party plays nice together, a 7th-level wizard casting this on a 7th-level rogue would provide a significant power boost to that rogue.
In practice though, this only occurs at higher levels when the rogues can afford a wand of greater invisibility and/or a cohort to help them with the buffs, because 7th-level wizards are way to self-centered to give the spotlight to the rogues and will almost always memorize some kind of spell that makes "them" look good. :P
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While an improved invisibility sneak attacking rogue is power, remember it takes both a rogue and a wizard of at least 7th level. In addition there are plenty of spells and abilities that will counter this:
Blindsight
Tremorsense
Glitterdust (no save)
See Invisibility (no save)
Invisibility Purge (no save)
Flour (won't stop the sneak attack, but at least you know where the rogue is)
Blind-fight
4th+ level rogue
2nd+ level barbarian
Nearly all those spells is available for nearly every spellcaster, and generally are only 2nd level spells (versus the 4th level that improved insivibility is). This is really only powerful against the completely unprepared.
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My thinking is that the first attack every round will have the sneak bonus but that the subsequent attacks should have a reduced chance of landing as sneak attacks.Its not how it works in the rules. If you're the dm and your players are pulling this one on you, live, learn, and adapt for the next session, its a VERY common tactic at higher levels.
The reason why this first attack rule keeps coming back is because of this dreadful 3.0 "complete arcane" splatbook that made up all kinds of nonsense rules about wizard rays, melee touch spells and range touch spells... Most of these optional rules did not survive the transition to 3.5...
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I'm reposting this from a previous thread as it may be useful to some...
SNEAK ATTACK WORKS IF:
1. Target loses its Dex bonus. Instances when one can lose his dex bonus:
blinded (includes creatures in areas of darkness without darkvision)
climbing
cowering
feint (see Bluff skill)
flat-footed
lifting double your max load off the ground
off balance in the water
pinned
stunned
vs. impromptu sneak attack
vs. invisible opponents
vs. non grappling opponents while you are grappling
2. Target is flanked.
3. Target is helpless (paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy).
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So this is the one place where the rogue gets to try to approach the fighter.. let them.-James
+1
The rogue is a predominately out-of-combat/skill-monkey type character. Letting them get the spotlight in combat every here and there isn't going to hurt anything. If it does, you can always throw fortification on opponents to make your rogue cry themselves to sleep at night.Consider on one side a rogue with sneak attack and on the other a two handed fighter with power attack.
Let's say at 12th level, both have +3 weapons andThe rogue does around 1d6+3(magic)+2(STR)+6d6 or 27-28damage.
The fighter does around 2d6+3(magic)+13(STR)+2(spec)+9(Power attack)+2 (weapon training) or 36damage.
I'll have to note your analysis is a bit incomplete as you're not included to-hit chances in this (which the fighter will generally be better off on). Assuming they both have weapon focus, the fighter will still have +2 from weapon training and better str modifier. Since you have "+13 str" on there I'll assume they were two-handing with a str mod of 9 (str 28), which isn't unreasonable for a dps fighter.
Rogue: 9 (BAB) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 9 (Dex) + 3 (Weapon) - 2 (TWF) = +20Fight: 12(BAB) + 2 (Weapon Focus + Greater) + 2 (Weapon Training) + 9 (Str) + 3 (Weapon) - 4 (Power Attack) = +24
So the rogue (assuming TWFing) has +20/+20/+15/+15 attacks, while the fighter has +24/+19/+14.
The guideline for a CR 14 creature says AC 29. This means the rogue gets 0.6+0.6+0.35+0.35 = 1.9 successful attacks on average. The fighter gets 0.8+0.55+0.30 = 1.65 successful attacks on average.
Multiply this by damage:
Rogue: 1d6+3(Magic) + 2(Str) + 6d6 = 29.5 average
Fight: 2d6+3(Magic) + 13 (Str) + 12 (Power Attack) + 2 (Weapon Training) + 4 (Weapon Spec + Greater) = 41 average.
29.5 * 1.9 = 56.05
41 * 1.65 = 67.65
Note that this doesn't include criticals, which will lean it towards fighter since the fighter has access to improved critical and multiplies all his damage, where the rogue doesn't on either count (though he will eventually get the former, he probably won't take it because of the latter and the availability of keen).
So different analysis, same conclusion: Let them have their toys :)
So this is the one place where the rogue gets to try to approach the fighter.. let them.-James
+1
The rogue is a predominately out-of-combat/skill-monkey type character. Letting them get the spotlight in combat every here and there isn't going to hurt anything. If it does, you can always throw fortification on opponents to make your rogue cry themselves to sleep at night.
Consider on one side a rogue with sneak attack and on the other a two handed fighter with power attack.
Let's say at 12th level, both have +3 weapons andThe rogue does around 1d6+3(magic)+2(STR)+6d6 or 27-28damage.
The fighter does around 2d6+3(magic)+13(STR)+2(spec)+9(Power attack)+2 (weapon training) or 36damage.
I'll have to note your analysis is a bit incomplete as you're not included to-hit chances in this (which the fighter will generally be better off on). Assuming they both have weapon focus, the fighter will still have +2 from weapon training and better str modifier. Since you have "+13 str" on there I'll assume they were two-handing with a str mod of 9 (str 28), which isn't unreasonable for a dps fighter.
Rogue: 9 (BAB) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 9 (Dex) + 3 (Weapon) - 2 (TWF) = +20
Fight: 12(BAB) + 2 (Weapon Focus + Greater) + 2 (Weapon Training) + 9 (Str) + 3 (Weapon) - 4 (Power Attack) = +24So the rogue (assuming TWFing) has +20/+20/+15/+15 attacks, while the fighter has +24/+19/+14.
The guideline for a CR 14 creature says AC 29. This means the rogue gets 0.6+0.6+0.35+0.35 = 1.9 successful attacks on average. The fighter gets 0.8+0.55+0.30 = 1.65 successful attacks on average.
Multiply this by damage:
Rogue: 1d6+3(Magic) + 2(Str) + 6d6 = 29.5 average
Fight: 2d6+3(Magic) + 13 (Str) + 12 (Power Attack) + 2 (Weapon Training) + 4 (Weapon Spec + Greater) = 41 average.
29.5 * 1.9 = 56.05
41 * 1.65 = 67.65
Note that this doesn't include criticals, which will lean it towards fighter since the fighter has access to improved critical and multiplies all his...
My only problem with both of your assumptions is that the [rogue] only has a 14 str.
edit:silly me, rogue not fighter. Thanks Charender
My only problem with both of your assumptions is that the fighter only has a 14 str.
The fighter in both examples has a strength of 28.
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The ironic thing is that the rogue is better served going full strength with a high crit or high crit-range two-handed weapon and treating the sneak attack as a nice bonus.
Same rogue, but with 28 str, 14 dex (not TWFing):
To-Hit: +9 (Bab) + 3 (Magic) + 9 (Str) + 1 (Weapon Focus) - 3 (Power Attack) = +19
Damage: 2d6 + 3 (Magic) + 13 (Str) + 9 (Power Attack) + 6d6 = 53
Average number of hits: 0.55 + 0.30 = 0.85
Total: 0.85 * 53 = 45.05
So before criticals (which this style of rogue can take much better advantage of) this rogue does much more damage than the other one. After criticals, VASTLY more damage (as 32 points multiply instead of 8.5).
Downside is that they will not be nearly as good at stealth or disable device (the two big skills for rogue). Upside is that their damage will be more consistent from situation to situation.
They can replace their first TWFing feat with power attack, their second with a skill focus to make up for lacking dex, their third with armor proficiency (medium is nice) and weapon finesse can be replaced with skill focus as well. Skill focus at 10+ is +6 which mostly negates the difference between 14 and 28 dex.
Heck, you could probably even drop your damage by 7 by one-handing the weapon (average drops to 39.1) and pick up a shield and be tank-rogue (note that a mithril heavy shield has no armor check penalty which means proficiency is pointless).
So there you have it: You can be a better rogue with high str than with high dex through simple feat reallocation. You probably won't be as good out of combat early, but you'll be better in combat early to make up for it. Eventually you catch up on out of combat and are still better in-combat.
The ironic thing is that the rogue is better served going full strength with a high crit or high crit-range two-handed weapon and treating the sneak attack as a nice bonus.
Same rogue, but with 28 str, 14 dex (not TWFing):
To-Hit: +9 (Bab) + 3 (Magic) + 9 (Str) + 1 (Weapon Focus) - 3 (Power Attack) = +19
Damage: 2d6 + 3 (Magic) + 13 (Str) + 9 (Power Attack) + 6d6 = 53
Average number of hits: 0.55 + 0.30 = 0.85
Total: 0.85 * 53 = 45.05
So before criticals (which this style of rogue can take much better advantage of) this rogue does much more damage than the other one. After criticals, VASTLY more damage (as 32 points multiply instead of 8.5).
Downside is that they will not be nearly as good at stealth or disable device (the two big skills for rogue). Upside is that their damage will be more consistent from situation to situation.
They can replace their first TWFing feat with power attack, their second with a skill focus to make up for lacking dex, their third with armor proficiency (medium is nice) and weapon finesse can be replaced with skill focus as well. Skill focus at 10+ is +6 which mostly negates the difference between 14 and 28 dex.
Heck, you could probably even drop your damage by 7 by one-handing the weapon (average drops to 39.1) and pick up a shield and be tank-rogue (note that a mithril heavy shield has no armor check penalty which means proficiency is pointless).So there you have it: You can be a better rogue with high str than with high dex through simple feat reallocation. You probably won't be as good out of combat early, but you'll be better in combat early to make up for it. Eventually you catch up on out of combat and are still better in-combat.
You also need a feat to have proficiency with a good two handed weapon or maybe a fighter level.
Overall I agree, you can be a rogue with Str and two handed weapons, you can even go for weapon+shield (for high AC builds)
You also need a feat to have proficiency with a good two handed weapon or maybe a fighter level.
Being a half-orc is another decent option there.
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The ironic thing is that the rogue is better served going full strength with a high crit or high crit-range two-handed weapon and treating the sneak attack as a nice bonus.It depends what you want out of it.
Your AC will still be less than a fighter's (medium armor vs heavy + armor training), your hps less, your to hit less, and for it you don't get all that much (you've given up evasion I believe, are decently behind in stealth, one behind in disable, and comparatively dead on any other dex skill (acrobatics, escape artist, slight of hand).
So at this point you've made a fighter rather than a rogue... and a poor fighter at that.
The fighter has an 11BAB vs the rogue's 9BAB, will have +4 weapon training (item increasing by 2), +2/+4 from focus/specialization for a grand +8 to hit and damage over you before you consider the 2nd iterative (which before you discount it is only 2 below that rogue's primary attack and thus 3 above his iterative attack).
My point was primarily that if you want a rogue that's good in combat you need to go more towards str than dex (as far as offense) and that even doing that you can't reach the ability that a fighter can even when you do get sneak attack on every attack.
In other words: The rogues best case scenario is "decent," with the fighters worst-case being "okay." If you assume equal quality of build the fighter will always be at least one (if not two or more) steps ahead in combat ability.
The rogue thrives out of combat. In campaigns where combat is king (which is a lot of them) the rogue is not a very good choice.
The fighter has 13-14 feats at this point and has spent 5, while the rogue has 6-7 feats (plus 6 talents from which he could spend some towards a combat feat, weapon finesse, & weapon focus) and has spent a total of 5. So even counting his talents into it, he's invested as much if not more.
So I think we can all agree that when the poor little rogue can get his sneak dice, for all that's good and holy let them.
Let them eat cake!
You also need a feat to have proficiency with a good two handed weapon or maybe a fighter level.
Overall I agree, you can be a rogue with Str and two handed weapons, you can even go for weapon+shield (for high AC builds)
You can't sneak attack with every weapon... ;)
You can't sneak attack with every weapon... ;)
With the exception of ranged weapons outside of 30 feet why would you not be able to sneak attack with any weapon of your choice?
When DMing Shackled City AP, a player of mine had a TWF rogue who managed to get the drop on some poor enemy without specific DR or the like. He managed to do over 200 points of damage over the course of seven attacks (I think), of which three were crits.
The enemy had 45 hp. =)
With the exception of ranged weapons outside of 30 feet why would you not be able to sneak attack with any weapon of your choice?You can't sneak attack with every weapon... ;)
Oh yes, sorry... Wrong rule reference ;)
The ironic thing is that the rogue is better served going full strength with a high crit or high crit-range two-handed weapon and treating the sneak attack as a nice bonus.
Same rogue, but with 28 str, 14 dex (not TWFing):
To-Hit: +9 (Bab) + 3 (Magic) + 9 (Str) + 1 (Weapon Focus) - 3 (Power Attack) = +19
Damage: 2d6 + 3 (Magic) + 13 (Str) + 9 (Power Attack) + 6d6 = 53
Average number of hits: 0.55 + 0.30 = 0.85
Total: 0.85 * 53 = 45.05
So before criticals (which this style of rogue can take much better advantage of) this rogue does much more damage than the other one. After criticals, VASTLY more damage (as 32 points multiply instead of 8.5).
Downside is that they will not be nearly as good at stealth or disable device (the two big skills for rogue). Upside is that their damage will be more consistent from situation to situation.
They can replace their first TWFing feat with power attack, their second with a skill focus to make up for lacking dex, their third with armor proficiency (medium is nice) and weapon finesse can be replaced with skill focus as well. Skill focus at 10+ is +6 which mostly negates the difference between 14 and 28 dex.
Heck, you could probably even drop your damage by 7 by one-handing the weapon (average drops to 39.1) and pick up a shield and be tank-rogue (note that a mithril heavy shield has no armor check penalty which means proficiency is pointless).So there you have it: You can be a better rogue with high str than with high dex through simple feat reallocation. You probably won't be as good out of combat early, but you'll be better in combat early to make up for it. Eventually you catch up on out of combat and are still better in-combat.
The DPR Olympics has a falchion rogue. It was slightly lower than the TWF, but by a fairly trivial ammount. Like you said, there are plenty of extra feats when you switch it up to make up for your weaknesses.
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When DMing Shackled City AP, a player of mine had a TWF rogue who managed to get the drop on some poor enemy without specific DR or the like. He managed to do over 200 points of damage over the course of seven attacks (I think), of which three were crits.
The enemy had 45 hp. =)
In the one Epic game, my friend played a fighter/rogue. I think around 25th level his average full attack did in the 600s.