I wanted to post about some experiences that I have had and some things that I have noticed being discussed on these boards. I know that a lot of us DMs lament that games like WoW and even D&D online are affecting our players. This is nothing new, however, I am seeing these effects mainfest in specific and irritating ways. I would like to see if we, as a community, can share our experiences and give names to this specific behavior so that going forward we can gently remind players that they are not, in fact, plaing a game of WoW.
I will start with an interesting experience that I had while playing an MMO. When I was playing WoW some months ago I was describing how all MMOs evolved from D&D. When I described D&D to one of the gamers he didn't seem to understand the concept especially how loot was distributed. His exact words were "How do you roll to see who gets the drop."
Here are two effects that come to mind.
1) The Auto-Loot effect. I thought of this one while reading another thread. Some of my players seem to think that it only takes "one click," to loot something. I would estimate that to do a thorough search of a dead enemy it would take at least 30 seconds (5 rounds), if not more. In the last session I ran some hobgoblins that the PCs were fighting were using crates for cover. When they retreated to a more defensible position most of the PCs pursued them. The sorceror of the party, however, went and checked the crate for loot reasoning, as if he was playing WoW, that it would not take long to check the crate. I informed him that the crate was nailed shut (as crates often are). He sitll insisted on searcing it, wasting valuable time that he could have been using to pursue the hobgoblins. He went so far as to grow his demonic claws to try and pry the crate open.
2) The Static-Environment Effect. There are many video games where once you clear a certain area of a dungeon it becomes safe for all time. For instance. In the Baldur's Gate series you could clear out a castle and return there time after time and find that no enemies had moved in. One adventure I was running involved the party double crossing the thieves guild that they were working for by taking out one of their drug producing operations. It was a nice dungeon complex in a cave system that appealed to the dwarf in the party so he suggested that he could take up shop there immediately after it was cleared. I had to gently remind him that it was probably not a wise idea to do so since his former employers might search him out and find him there.
Has anyone else known players who have made simmilar leaps of video-game logic.
We had a player that had this mindset. He would say he would do something even though he couldn't do it since it wasnt his round. My example is he is about to get hit by a monster and he yells out "I TURN INVISIBLE!" Even though it wasn't his turn and that spell isn't an immediate interupt spell. I mentioned that to him. All I could do was laugh.
Related to the Static-Environment effect: I once had PCs working their way through the BBEG's headquarters, killing minions and freeing prisoners. They had it all cleared except for his inner sanctum, but they were running low on spells ... so they decided to go hole up in an empty room and rest for 8 hours. Funnily enough, the BBEG didn't just sit in his room and wait on them for 8 hours. When the men he'd sent to bring the prisoner for the sacrifice didn't come back, he sent out more minions to investigate, and the party got attacked in the middle of their attempt to nap. They ended up finishing the building out without their high-level spells.
I haven't seen this so much...
But what I have seen, especially on these boards, the effects of MMO number crunching has had on table top RPGs.
MMO's run on computer code, and finding weapon and combat ability combos do X is every given situation, has lead people to do that with core rules for a pen and paper RPG, that is not hard coded so to speak.
This kind of work, can be helpful, when used to pan out character concepts to determine synergy in abilities and such.
Overall though, it seems to lead to a "I'm right, I did the math, you're wrong" situations in theory crafting, when PnP RPGs are not hard coded. There are too many variables (play style, DM, PLAYSTYLE etc.), and I find it's ruining alot of the fun for people who just want to roelplay and have fun (which is why it's a game), as opposed to being told some x class "is teh suxxorz cuz it got nerfed" BS that is prevalent in MMOs...this has leaked onto my PnP RPG experience.
Get yur freaking chocolate OUT of my peanutbutter.
Overall though, it seems to lead to a "I'm right, I did the math, you're wrong" situations in theory crafting, when PnP RPGs are not hard coded. There are too many variables (play style, DM, PLAYSTYLE etc.), and I find it's ruining alot of the fun for people who just want to roelplay and have fun (which is why it's a game), as opposed to being told some x class "is teh suxxorz cuz it got nerfed" BS that is prevalent in MMOs...this has leaked onto my PnP RPG experience.
Get yur freaking chocolate OUT of my peanutbutter.
+1!!!
We had a player that had this mindset. He would say he would do something even though he couldn't do it since it wasnt his round. My example is he is about to get hit by a monster and he yells out "I TURN INVISIBLE!" Even though it wasn't his turn and that spell isn't an immediate interupt spell. I mentioned that to him. All I could do was laugh.
As if he had it hot keyed, lol.
The Static-Environment Effect... BIG TIME!!!
To the point where the group will leave a dungeon for days at a time to recouperate/craft magic items while the BBEG either moves on or reassesses the damage and redeploys his assets.
I haven't seen this so much...
But what I have seen, especially on these boards, the effects of MMO number crunching has had on table top RPGs.
MMO's run on computer code, and finding weapon and combat ability combos do X is every given situation, has lead people to do that with core rules for a pen and paper RPG, that is not hard coded so to speak.
This kind of work, can be helpful, when used to pan out character concepts to determine synergy in abilities and such.Overall though, it seems to lead to a "I'm right, I did the math, you're wrong" situations in theory crafting, when PnP RPGs are not hard coded. There are too many variables (play style, DM, PLAYSTYLE etc.), and I find it's ruining alot of the fun for people who just want to roelplay and have fun (which is why it's a game), as opposed to being told some x class "is teh suxxorz cuz it got nerfed" BS that is prevalent in MMOs...this has leaked onto my PnP RPG experience.
Get yur freaking chocolate OUT of my peanutbutter.
+2
This is a worrisome trend. I tend to play with close personal friends so we collaborate on builds, items, etc. If I was running a more impersonal campaign I could see how this could easily turn into a problem.
We had a player that had this mindset. He would say he would do something even though he couldn't do it since it wasnt his round. My example is he is about to get hit by a monster and he yells out "I TURN INVISIBLE!" Even though it wasn't his turn and that spell isn't an immediate interupt spell. I mentioned that to him. All I could do was laugh.As if he had it hot keyed, lol.
Lol exactly!
The Static-Environment Effect... BIG TIME!!!
To the point where the group will leave a dungeon for days at a time to recouperate/craft magic items while the BBEG either moves on or reassesses the damage and redeploys his assets.
Thank you for sharing my pain. I want to hit my players when they do this stuff.
The main problem I had with the MMO craze infecting my games was when EQ and then WOW first came out I had a hard time getting my players to stop discussing their previous night's WOW session and concentrate on the game they were actually playing. That wore off pretty soon, though.
Seriously trying to remove video and computer game influence from the game now is like trying to reverse time. They have exerted influence and will continue to do so.
Here are a few impacts I've seen, with no judgment as to whether they are good or bad:
1) Quicker level progression
2) More emphasis on combat
3) A lot of language creeping in, like: tank, mook, loot-drop, etc.
4) More focus on the mechanics of the game
5) Game art that is more influenced by new media rather than medieval reality or classic fantasy art
6) More people using point buy systems rather than rolling dice for character generation
The main problem I had with the MMO craze infecting my games was when EQ and then WOW first came out I had a hard time getting my players to stop discussing their previous night's WOW session and concentrate on the game they were actually playing. That wore off pretty soon, though.
Seriously trying to remove video and computer game influence from the game now is like trying to reverse time. They have exerted influence and will continue to do so.
Here are a few impacts I've seen, with no judgment as to whether they are good or bad:
1) Quicker level progression
2) More emphasis on combat
3) A lot of language creeping in, like: tank, mook, loot-drop, etc.
4) More focus on the mechanics of the game
5) Game art that is more influenced by new media rather than medieval reality or classic fantasy art
6) More people using point buy systems rather than rolling dice for character generation
+7
Another one that is closely related to the auto-loot effect is something that I am going to call the backpack effect.
I have some players who think that they can cram half a dozen actions into a single round. For instance. The last session I ran a player of mine wanted to reach into his pack (he did have a handy haversack) draw a torch and a flask of oil, light the torch, throw the flask against a door 20 feet away, then throw the torch on the door.
When you are playing Oblivion and you pull a torch out it comes out pre lit. When you are playing PF I would wager that this action would take at least three, if not four, rounds. Even longer without a handy haversack.
Next session I want to show the complexity of manipulating simple objects by going through the process of using an atm step by step. Here is what I have in mind.
Round 1 - in the car
- open car door - standard action
- walk to atm - move action
Round 2 - standing at atm
- dig wallet out of back pocket - move equivalent action
- remove card from wallet - standard action
Round 3 - standing at atm
- insert card into atm - standard action
- prepare a readied action while I wait for the ATM to prompt me
Round 4 - standing at atm
- type in pin - standard action
- type in amount - standard action
Round 5 - standing at atm
- wait to receive cash - readied action
- put cash in wallet - move equivalent action
Round 6 - standing at atm
- put receipt in wallet - standard action
- walk back to car - move action
The main problem I had with the MMO craze infecting my games was when EQ and then WOW first came out I had a hard time getting my players to stop discussing their previous night's WOW session and concentrate on the game they were actually playing. That wore off pretty soon, though.
Seriously trying to remove video and computer game influence from the game now is like trying to reverse time. They have exerted influence and will continue to do so.
Here are a few impacts I've seen, with no judgment as to whether they are good or bad:
1) Quicker level progression
2) More emphasis on combat
3) A lot of language creeping in, like: tank, mook, loot-drop, etc.
4) More focus on the mechanics of the game
5) Game art that is more influenced by new media rather than medieval reality or classic fantasy art
6) More people using point buy systems rather than rolling dice for character generation
Indeed. I have seen all of the above, especially number three.
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I haven't seen this so much...
But what I have seen, especially on these boards, the effects of MMO number crunching has had on table top RPGs.
MMO's run on computer code, and finding weapon and combat ability combos do X is every given situation, has lead people to do that with core rules for a pen and paper RPG, that is not hard coded so to speak.
This kind of work, can be helpful, when used to pan out character concepts to determine synergy in abilities and such.Overall though, it seems to lead to a "I'm right, I did the math, you're wrong" situations in theory crafting, when PnP RPGs are not hard coded. There are too many variables (play style, DM, PLAYSTYLE etc.), and I find it's ruining alot of the fun for people who just want to roelplay and have fun (which is why it's a game), as opposed to being told some x class "is teh suxxorz cuz it got nerfed" BS that is prevalent in MMOs...this has leaked onto my PnP RPG experience.
Get yur freaking chocolate OUT of my peanutbutter.
+1
I agree with this even though I enjoy a little number-crunching and character optimizing myself. That said, I have never played an MMO and I know the numbers are meaningless if they don't serve greater concerns like story, character development, etc.
Some people seem to think they can SOLVE the game (like an equation) rather than PLAY it.
Point buy is not only becuase of video games. I stopped rolling dice because of a character that had 18 str and dex and 16 con for a fighter. This actually made the game less fun for the other player and me.
Also this same player tried to kill the town drunk in the sewers.
Point Buy more is the result of organized play and non-face to face options (play-by-post, play-by-IM, play-by-VOIP, play-by-VTT). Especially where "trust" isn't super high.
I see terms and changes in assumed party roles to be the biggest impact. Although I would agree with the Static-Environment, although not in the sense that things "stay cleared", but more in that you can't modify the world. Although bless some of the more recent FPS games for including distributable terrain as a feature and as "acceptable" methods of achieving goals.
Point buy is not only becuase of video games. I stopped rolling dice because of a character that had 18 str and dex and 16 con for a fighter. This actually made the game less fun for the other player and me.
Also this same player tried to kill the town drunk in the sewers.
** spoiler omitted **. This kind of noncombat encounters in dungeons is fun for me and I hope video games do not cause this to occur.
What I think is interesting is that video games do somethings that RPGs don't do well, and visa versa. The two different media have been informing each other and creating different innovation for a long time. But obviously there can be some "culture shock" when a player from one moves to the other.
WoW I think is a special case in some ways. Blizzard is very concerned with user interface and flow of play, which is why their MMO is so addictive. Players get used to certain conventions, such as 1 click looting, and rolling for loot. The absence of these things can be jarring to long term players, even when they switch to a different MMO. If you play Guild Wars after having played WoW for a few years, tell me how much you miss being able to jump.
I think though that this is a learning moment for your erstwhile sorcerer about expectations. The dose of "hard reality" hopefully can convey the depth that table-top RPGs are capable of, and hopefully it didn't become a point of contention when the player found out he couldn't "1-click loot".
The main problem I had with the MMO craze infecting my games was when EQ and then WOW first came out I had a hard time getting my players to stop discussing their previous night's WOW session and concentrate on the game they were actually playing. That wore off pretty soon, though.
Seriously trying to remove video and computer game influence from the game now is like trying to reverse time. They have exerted influence and will continue to do so.
Here are a few impacts I've seen, with no judgment as to whether they are good or bad:
1) Quicker level progression
2) More emphasis on combat
3) A lot of language creeping in, like: tank, mook, loot-drop, etc.
4) More focus on the mechanics of the game
5) Game art that is more influenced by new media rather than medieval reality or classic fantasy art
6) More people using point buy systems rather than rolling dice for character generation
I'm not fully convinced that there's any direct correlation between this behavior and computer games. With the exception of number 3, all these things (including "The Auto-Loot effect" and "The Static-Environment Effect") I've seen off and on at the gaming table since '86. Maybe I'm just in the minority, but I have had two very hard core WoW players at my table for the last couple of years and I've never had any of these problems with them.
1) Quicker level progression
2) More emphasis on combat
3) A lot of language creeping in, like: tank, mook, loot-drop, etc.
4) More focus on the mechanics of the game
5) Game art that is more influenced by new media rather than medieval reality or classic fantasy art
6) More people using point buy systems rather than rolling dice for character generation
- 1) - I don't think the clamor for quicker level advancement has anything to do with modern MMOs, rather I think that's been an "issue" that was present at the birth of pen and paper RPGs and has continued on today.
2) - I don't think that combat emphasis is a new thing either. I think some people like to role more and others like to roll more.
3) - MMOs haven't changed the language, that's just something that happens normally over time, yo. I made a funny...
4) - Again, game mechanics have been a subject of debate long before video game became prevalent.
5) - Okay, I agree. I do not like the turn that game art has taken, but I don't think that MMOs alone can be blamed for the shift.
6) - I think some people just wanted a balance within the party. While I like rolling for stats, I know that a sucky array can haunt a character forever. Again, that's something that the game has been trying to deal with since the beginning.
MMOs aren't the problem, but players who can't differentiate between an online game and a table-top game might be.
Just want to clarify. I love me some MMOs. As loaba said MMOs aren't the problem.
I do MMO stuff quite abit and the biggest "import to D&D" thing I've seen is the idea that if you didn't build your character 100% for combat then its suboptimal, and suboptimal is seen akin to the steaming pool of vomit on the floor. Avoid it at all costs.
D&D used to be about the team and the team doing well. You wanted to contribute meaningfully to the team- but it used to not just be a combat affair.
I do NOT think that people should be encouraged to suck in all aspects of the game but dang it- combat Is Not The Game. I do not Care if "that other choice" could make me a 2% DPS increase. If I/the other guy is contributing meaningfully to the group all around, then that's really all that matters.
-S
I do MMO stuff quite abit and the biggest "import to D&D" thing I've seen is the idea that if you didn't build your character 100% for combat then its suboptimal, and suboptimal is seen akin to the steaming pool of vomit on the floor. Avoid it at all costs.
So Power-gaming is only a recent development? The Unearthed Arcana of 1st Edition fame didn't start that ball rolling? :)
So Power-gaming is only a recent development? The Unearthed Arcana of 1st Edition fame didn't start that ball rolling? :)
Nope, the original BECMI boxes did, for anyone who played before with the booklets. Then 1E did, for anyone who did BECMI, which I did;)
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I do MMO stuff quite abit and the biggest "import to D&D" thing I've seen is the idea that if you didn't build your character 100% for combat then its suboptimal, and suboptimal is seen akin to the steaming pool of vomit on the floor. Avoid it at all costs.So Power-gaming is only a recent development? The Unearthed Arcana of 1st Edition fame didn't start that ball rolling? :)
It did, but then MMO's shot the ball out of a potato gun.
I don't think anyone's claiming that any of these are truly original behaviors, but I can't fathom how you (not YOU you, but anybody you) can deny that MMO's have impacted the PnP landscape drastically, many times in ways that are quite detrimental.
3.0/3.5 was written right around the time that MMO's became viable and BEFORE they became really really popular, and the rules that we're using today are pretty darned close to the 3.0 rules. So, the rules haven't been drastically altered (at least, referring to Pathfinder - other companies' products do not hold serve here, really) to fit the MMO mindset, and yet we still see gamers whose mindset as an MMO player heavily colors their PnP experience.
For my part, I would agree with the post upthread - the obsession with character optimization is the greatest change I've seen in the hobby since MMOs became prevalent. The old baseline was someone who read the races, read the classes, and picked a character because some combination of race/class seemed cool to them. The NEW baseline is "being a human so I can get the extra feat/skill point".
*This post is completely opinion.
1) - I don't think the clamor for quicker level advancement has anything to do with modern MMOs, rather I think that's been an "issue" that was present at the birth of pen and paper RPGs and has continued on today.
2) - I don't think that combat emphasis is a new thing either. I think some people like to role more and others like to roll more.
3) - MMOs haven't changed the language, that's just something that happens normally over time, yo. I made a funny...
4) - Again, game mechanics have been a subject of debate long before video game became prevalent.
5) - Okay, I agree. I do not like the turn that game art has taken, but I don't think that MMOs alone can be blamed for the shift.
6) - I think some people just wanted a balance within the party. While I like rolling for stats, I know that a sucky array can haunt a character forever. Again, that's something that the game has been trying to deal with since the beginning.
MMOs aren't the problem, but players who can't differentiate between an online game and a table-top game might be.
I don't necessarily disagree with your or Abbasax's responses to my points. Note in my original post that I don't make any judgment as to whether these changes are good or not. They are merely changes that I have observed in the game over the last 30+ years. That period of time happens to coincide with the rise of MMOs and other computer games, and I believe that there certainly has been some impact on the hobby from electronic media. I certainly can't prove cause and effect for any of these things, but I believe they are related. YMMV. My main point is that, as the game has evolved, so have the influences on it. 1st edition influences were largely literary, classic fantasy literature from LOTR to Conan to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser to Elric and so on. Now, added to that mix are computer and video games (including MMOs), movies and TV shows, other pen and paper games, anime, comic books, etc. These influences have inevitably changed the game as people want to play the types of characters and settings that they observe or have fun with in these media. Not a bad or a good thing, but definitely different.
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I do MMO stuff quite abit and the biggest "import to D&D" thing I've seen is the idea that if you didn't build your character 100% for combat then its suboptimal, and suboptimal is seen akin to the steaming pool of vomit on the floor. Avoid it at all costs.
D&D used to be about the team and the team doing well. You wanted to contribute meaningfully to the team- but it used to not just be a combat affair.
I do NOT think that people should be encouraged to suck in all aspects of the game but dang it- combat Is Not The Game. I do not Care if "that other choice" could make me a 2% DPS increase. If I/the other guy is contributing meaningfully to the group all around, then that's really all that matters.
-S
+1
I think the worst problem today is everyone thinks they have to be able to face any encounter and face it alone. I like the 3.5 system because its give and take you simply cant do it alone. You run in a group because the others fill in where you are weak. Whatever happened to teamwork?
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Whatever happened to teamwork?
This is true, and all the more hilarious because MMOs (good ones, at least) DEMAND teamwork to get through the most difficult raids. I have some experience in high-level Guild Wars PvP play, as well, and without really spot-on teamwork it's absolutely impossible. It SHOULD translate, it just doesn't, for some reason. And in most cases.
Teamwork is key. D&D, PF, what have you, are heroic games that rely on the party's ability to withstand and endure multiple challenges. It is supremely helpful when the party works together to achieve it's goals.
Speaking of teamwork, Second Darkness comes to mind. Our group was new then, none of us had really played together before. We rolled stats, two people got horrible arrays. And kept them. For almost 2 years, these guys roled with sub-par arrays and did just fine. The rest of the party, with stellar arrays, picked up the slack and helped the other two out. It was fun.
I don't necessarily disagree with your or Abbasax's responses to my points. Note in my original post that I don't make any judgment as to whether these changes are good or not. They are merely changes that I have observed in the game over the last 30+ years. That period of time happens to coincide with the rise of MMOs and other computer games, and I believe that there certainly has been some impact on the hobby from electronic media. I certainly can't prove cause and effect for any of these things, but I believe they are related. YMMV. My main point is that, as the game has evolved, so have the influences on it. 1st edition influences were largely literary, classic fantasy literature from LOTR to Conan to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser to Elric and so on. Now, added to that mix are computer and video games (including MMOs), movies and TV shows, other pen and paper games, anime, comic books, etc. These influences...
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that there isn't influence from MMOs and such on current players, I just think that it is overused as an cause for behavior that's been around from pretty much the beginning of the hobby.
I don't necessarily disagree with your or Abbasax's responses to my points. Note in my original post that I don't make any judgment as to whether these changes are good or not. They are merely changes that I have observed in the game over the last 30+ years. That period of time happens to coincide with the rise of MMOs and other computer games, and I believe that there certainly has been some impact on the hobby from electronic media. I certainly can't prove cause and effect for any of these things, but I believe they are related. YMMV. My main point is that, as the game has evolved, so have the influences on it. 1st edition influences were largely literary, classic fantasy literature from LOTR to Conan to Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser to Elric and so on. Now, added to that mix are computer and video games (including MMOs), movies and TV shows, other pen and paper games, anime, comic books, etc. These influences...Sorry, I didn't mean to say that there isn't influence from MMOs and such on current players, I just think that it is overused as an cause for behavior that's been around from pretty much the beginning of the hobby.
No apology necessary. I took no offense from your well-phrased counterpoints. It's all just part of an interesting conversation between people who may have somewhat different viewpoints from me. I like to hear those viewpoints because I frequently learn something from them. If everyone always agreed with me I'd be learning nothing. I agree with you that the cause/effect relationship should not be overplayed, and some of these behaviors have been around from the beginning. I would just say that my observation is that they have become more common over time and MMOs and other more recent influences have some correlation with that.
One thing I noticed a lot is a total focus on combat from some, and then RAGE when the bard/wizard/whoever role plays a situation away from combat.
I am an old school min/maxer or munchkin or optimizer, (take your pick) but have never really looked at DPS. I like to squeeze everything I can out of a build, but not build based on numbers first.
Point buy is not only becuase of video games.
Personally, I started using "point buy" for several reasons:
And note that D&D is one of the few games that has clung to attribute generation by rolling dice for so long, and even D&D is offering official alternatives!
I think most RPGs use some sort of purchase system or other method of deterministic character generation, and I think quite a lot of them started that way.
Those games never used dice during character generation. It's a D&Dism, really.
I see your Auto-Loot and Static Environment and raise you a Artificial Intelligence.
As with a lot of stuff in this thread, I'm not sure this comes from computer games, but if they didn't cause this sort of thinking, they certainly encouraged it.
It could be from boardgames where the rules are the rules and don't have to make sense in regards to a "real" world.
The Artificial Intelligence effect is when players think they can play the rules, exploiting loopholes, and there's nothing the game can do.
You see the sort of thing in computer games, where you can often easily defeat enemies by abusing errors in their AI programming (like moving out of sight to make them stop attacking and then calmly killing them with attacks that go around corners or above barriers, without the enemy fighting back), or errors in the rules that haven't been patched (an item that will sell for more than it costs to buy, so you can buy it, sell it, rinse and repeat, and get infinite money)
The problem is that roleplaying games have a Game Master (or narrator, or storyteller, or DM, or whatever the game calls the guy behind the screen). This guy is an actual human and can think and react like a human. And he can change the rules, since he has the final say over the rules. And he can make rules with vague wording, where only the spirit of the rule is important.
This means that if they notice a loop-hole, or a player abusing a loop-hole, they can very easily fix it. No patch or anything needed. He just says "Even though the book makes poles more expensive than ladders, which are composed of poles, you cannot buy ladders, disassemble them, and sell them for a huge mark-up!"
There is a sub-phenomenon, not a problem per se, but something many people coming from MMORPGs to table top RPGs have a problem with:
The Aggro Phenomenon!
This phenomenon describes the bewilderment of MMO-crossovers when they look for aggro rules in table top RPGs and can't find any. They often think it was an oversight, because you need aggro rules, right?
Wrong. Computer games need those rules, because the computer can't think for himself. He needs a pre-defined behaviour to let computer-controlled creatures react. Aggro is such a behavioural pattern, determining what enemy the creature will attack, depending on what they're doing.
But since, as the AI phenomenon shows us, table top games have an actual person in charge of all the things the computer does in MMORPGS, there is no need for a fixed, predetermined pattern of behaviour. The GM will just consider the situation, put himself into the creature's position and think about what the creature will do in the situation.
This system might not be perfect, but that makes it perfect, since very few creatures ever do things wholly by the numbers.
Whatever happened to teamwork?This is true, and all the more hilarious because MMOs (good ones, at least) DEMAND teamwork to get through the most difficult raids. I have some experience in high-level Guild Wars PvP play, as well, and without really spot-on teamwork it's absolutely impossible. It SHOULD translate, it just doesn't, for some reason. And in most cases.
Likely because inter-character combos are not as clear as they are in MMOs. I speak from the experience of EVE Online and a bit of City of Heros. Especially in EVE Online there are some very clear deficiencies and limitations in the "class" or ship you choose to fly into an engagement/encounter, which in Player verses NPC enemy can be mitigated somewhat but become quite noticeable in Player verse Player.
It is quite possible that people who come into the Pen and Paper from an MMO are treating it like PvE, where there are some classes and builds that can "solo". They are not treating it like PvP, which for Pathfinder it is often very akin to.
Not to flame but this is something 4e does a very good job at highlighting, the tactical interplay between the class. Almost to the point of requiring it for the party to be successful. It is something all editions of D&D have done various levels of head nods toward with general party roles, but never as openly. Although back in 3e pre-Paizo Dragon their used to a short lived column about "power plays" of combining some kinds of monster that worked extremely well together. Perhaps it is time to revive such a "fan" column but with a focus on Players' characters doing tag team style maneuvers and laying them out clearly... must go suggest this to the Chronicles: The Pathfinder Podcast folks.
*edit* I'm a slow poster
@ KaeYoss,
That is exactly what I'm talking about. PvE is Player vs limited AI. PvP is Player vs another human (GM). Because the "bad guys" are numerous NPCs they think it is PvE. It isn't, it is PvP because there there is a live human behind those other "Players."
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I've always gamed with MMO players, Non-MMO players, and ALL my players enjoy a good video game of one type or another. I've found that by presenting a living breathing world with NPCs that have their own goals, plans and agendas the players have never treated the game like a video game.
Essentially pointing out the possible consequences of actions they might want to take goes a long way.
Player: "I want to rest in the dungeon."
GM: "Do you think the monsters are just going to let you nap quietly? Also I hope you thought to bring rations, your character is likely to get hungry."
Player: "I loot the body."
GM: "There are still a whole bunch of orcs around, while you're searching a body you won't be looking out for danger..."
Player:"I mean, I shoot that orc over there."
GM: "The goblin looks at you and says: 'Who goes there?'"
Player: "Goblins talk?"
GM: "Indeed, they aren't animals. Animals tend not to steal babies specifically for the flavour."
Player: "Err... 'WE GO HERE!'"
*hilarity ensues*
Rounds to use an ATM.
I don't agree with a lot of your calls on what is and isn't a standard action. If getting the card out of my wallet is one, then why is opening the car door? For that matter, you have 2 standard actions in round 4, which isn't possible.
Regardless of those nitpicks, I do agree with your overall timescale. If anything, its a little generous, if done sequentially like so. I personally am getting my wallet and card out as I approach the ATM (unless there are other people in line.) So assuming the ATM was less than 30' from where I parked, It would only take me 1 round to have my card out and be at the atm from when I started in my car. Another round to use the ATM, another while waiting for the cash (which is when I'm likely putting my card and wallet away) and one more to return to my car after grabbing my cash and stuffing it and the receipt in my pocket (I'm lazy that way, if I'm at an ATM, I'm either getting money to give to my wife or to spend very shortly, so I don't bother putting it in the wallet. Besides, I misplace my wallet like you wouldn't beleive.)
Back to the main thread topic, I definitely agree with the Quick Loot Effect and the Static Enviorment (which is why I play Dynamic Enviorment VERY often, sometimes even Mid-Combat: "Honey, I'm home!") Definitely agree with Artificial Intelligence too.
The negative trends I've seen come from MMOs is:
1: More tangent conversations at the game table, breaking immersion. I'm just as guilty as my players of this, since 4 of the 5 of us play WoW. New content, new patch, babble babble babble. The problem is because MMOs are very "close" to D&D, its easier to get caught up in the tangent, because it feels "related". Conversations about movies seem to last less, especially movies not related to sci-fi/fantasy.
1A: Jargon breaking immersion. Might just be my table, but I've noticed it a little. But enough to comment on it. And yes, while languages change over time, they do so because of incorporation of jargon once it becomes commonplace enough. And MMO jargon is starting to do so, especially in related arenas like PnP RPGs.
2: Solo play. WoW especially brings the idea that any class should be able to go "solo" and still be functional, only needing a party for much harder things (like dungeons or raids). I generally refute this by saying a WoW dungeon has, regardless of what the portrait says is the level, a CR that is appropriate for a group of 5. By proxy, solo questing has a CR that is appropriate for a group of 1. Yes, that means your level 1 troll shaman is beating up on CR 1/4 boars and scorpions. And your 80, who might be compared to a 18th level character, is smacking around CR 10-13 creatures when he's on his own.
3: The Build Concept. MMOs are more limited in their generall class/ability complexity. They often don't have or discourage anything resembling "multi-classing". Between this and the Solo play phenomenon, its generally quite easy to sort out what is the best progression for your character. But D&D is capable (and usually expected) of being more dynamic. If you leave the Orc Infested Hills of Pendleby, you may find your +1 Orc Bane Longsword isn't that useful anymore. I've noticed a lot of players start with a "build" in mind rather than a personality, and they cling to the build even when the personality (if they ever do make one) experiences things that could reasonably "change his direction".
Oh, and I think the art style trends are more Anime based than MMO based (although many MMOs are very anime influenced, so maybe). I love me my Anime and MMOs, but yeah, hooray for Paizo holding back on those influences as much as they have. And beleive me, they have held back. Just look up the Anima RPG if you don't beleive me.
I've always gamed with MMO players, Non-MMO players, and ALL my players enjoy a good video game of one type or another. I've found that by presenting a living breathing world with NPCs that have their own goals, plans and agendas the players have never treated the game like a video game.
Essentially pointing out the possible consequences of actions they might want to take goes a long way.
Player: "I want to rest in the dungeon."
GM: "Do you think the monsters are just going to let you nap quietly? Also I hope you thought to bring rations, your character is likely to get hungry."Player: "I loot the body."
GM: "There are still a whole bunch of orcs around, while you're searching a body you won't be looking out for danger..."
Player:"I mean, I shoot that orc over there."GM: "The goblin looks at you and says: 'Who goes there?'"
Player: "Goblins talk?"
GM: "Indeed, they aren't animals. Animals tend not to steal babies specifically for the flavour."
Player: "Err... 'WE GO HERE!'"
*hilarity ensues*
Part of the reason that I started this thread is because I HATE to give PCs "hints," like this. When a situation like the looting situation arises I feel like I must have failed as a DM sometimes for not describing the situation accurately. This creates a catch 22. Either you allow the PC to do something that no sane person with an IQ over 10 would actually do or you tell him what his character should do which a DM shouldn't do.
That is a topic for another thread though.
I have a player who prefers to play rogues who has had her concept of stealth completely snafu-ed by MMOs. She can't wrap her head around the idea that she can't simply hit a button and go into "stealth mode", nor can she run around the entire game world in "stealth mode" all the time. I try to be patient, but lately when she asks the impossible I simply say "No," followed by "the rules are in your book. Start reading." Might be time for me to get out from behind the screen before I get snarky.
Oh, and when attacking lesser creatures led by a stronger one, she always says "I attack the mob."
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Whatever happened to teamwork?This is true, and all the more hilarious because MMOs (good ones, at least) DEMAND teamwork to get through the most difficult raids. I have some experience in high-level Guild Wars PvP play, as well, and without really spot-on teamwork it's absolutely impossible. It SHOULD translate, it just doesn't, for some reason. And in most cases.
Yes, you are right end game in MMOs do require much team work. Unfortunately, so much so that people are shunned for not having the best possible build. I am starting to see this attitude in the tabletop community. Teamwork may not have been the right word. Maybe elitism over inclusiveness?
I have seen posts by players on the forums that their group wants to kick a player because he did not optimize and hurts the groups effectiveness. Sad. Gaming is turning into a competitive sport I guess.
Whatever happened to teamwork?This is true, and all the more hilarious because MMOs (good ones, at least) DEMAND teamwork to get through the most difficult raids. I have some experience in high-level Guild Wars PvP play, as well, and without really spot-on teamwork it's absolutely impossible. It SHOULD translate, it just doesn't, for some reason. And in most cases.Yes, you are right end game in MMOs do require much team work. Unfortunately, so much so that people are shunned for not having the best possible build. I am starting to see this attitude in the tabletop community. Teamwork may not have been the right word. Maybe elitism over inclusiveness?
I have seen posts by players on the forums that their group wants to kick a player because he did not optimize and hurts the groups effectiveness. Sad. Gaming is turning into a competitive sport I guess.
This is bad news. One reason that I primarily game with friends.
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Whatever happened to teamwork?This is true, and all the more hilarious because MMOs (good ones, at least) DEMAND teamwork to get through the most difficult raids. I have some experience in high-level Guild Wars PvP play, as well, and without really spot-on teamwork it's absolutely impossible. It SHOULD translate, it just doesn't, for some reason. And in most cases.Yes, you are right end game in MMOs do require much team work. Unfortunately, so much so that people are shunned for not having the best possible build. I am starting to see this attitude in the tabletop community. Teamwork may not have been the right word. Maybe elitism over inclusiveness?
I have seen posts by players on the forums that their group wants to kick a player because he did not optimize and hurts the groups effectiveness. Sad. Gaming is turning into a competitive sport I guess.
My group seems to have dodged this particular bullet, but not by much. I am the GM, and only myself and one other player are skilled optimizers. However, since the optimizer player doesn't want to bite the big one, she often helps the other players pick feats and abilities. Some players respect her abilities so much that they'll let her veto their feat and spell picks or ask her to check their math. She does it happily because she wants her character to have optimized teammates watching her back, and it works for me because then I can try my hardest to challenge the whole group instead of boring the optimizer or killing the newer players.
If she was less cooperative, I'd probably offer up action points or hero points or some other sort of bribe, but I haven't had to so far.
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I have a player who prefers to play rogues who has had her concept of stealth completely snafu-ed by MMOs. She can't wrap her head around the idea that she can't simply hit a button and go into "stealth mode", nor can she run around the entire game world in "stealth mode" all the time. I try to be patient, but lately when she asks the impossible I simply say "No," followed by "the rules are in your book. Start reading." Might be time for me to get out from behind the screen before I get snarky.
Oh, and when attacking lesser creatures led by a stronger one, she always says "I attack the mob."
Oooooh, that would drive me up the wall.
Oooooh, that would drive me up the wall.I have a player who prefers to play rogues who has had her concept of stealth completely snafu-ed by MMOs. She can't wrap her head around the idea that she can't simply hit a button and go into "stealth mode", nor can she run around the entire game world in "stealth mode" all the time. I try to be patient, but lately when she asks the impossible I simply say "No," followed by "the rules are in your book. Start reading." Might be time for me to get out from behind the screen before I get snarky.
Oh, and when attacking lesser creatures led by a stronger one, she always says "I attack the mob."
Yeah, that would be irritating.
The negative trends I've seen come from MMOs is:
1: More tangent conversations at the game table, breaking immersion.
That's more a matter of discipline than of playing MMO.
For example, in our Saturday group, we have an awful lot of fallout, the game being derailed all the time by off-topic conversations. There is only one MMO player in that group, and he wasn't very serious about it (it wasn't WoW, it was Warhammer) and doesn't regale us with that stuff.
The Sunday group has several people playing (I as a non MMO player am in the minority), but the fallout is a lot less than the Saturday group, and only a part of that is actually WoW-related.
1A: Jargon breaking immersion. Might just be my table, but I've noticed it a little. But enough to comment on it. And yes, while languages change over time, they do so because of incorporation of jargon once it becomes commonplace enough. And MMO jargon is starting to do so, especially in related arenas like PnP RPGs.
3: The Build Concept.[...]
I've noticed a lot of players start with a "build" in mind rather than a personality, and they cling to the build even when the personality (if they ever do make one) experiences things that could reasonably "change his direction".
I've noticed people playing builds rather than characters - and the worst offenders don't play MMOs as far as I know.
I also saw optimised characters that still had character. A mix of min-maxing and actually creating a character who is more than stats on a sheet.
I do dislike the word "build". It suggests strongly that the person using it isn't interested in roleplaying at all, but rather in getting a new high score.
Player: "I want to rest in the dungeon."
GM: "Do you think the monsters are just going to let you nap quietly? Also I hope you thought to bring rations, your character is likely to get hungry."
Yeah. Though in my case, I wouldn't mention rations. Equipment micromanagement is boring and therefore "banned" from my game.
I assume that the characters (who are themselves all the time, not just a couple of hours every other week) think about stuff like rations and rope. Unless this stuff becomes interesting by suddenly being not freely available where the discerning adventurer shops for all his adventuring needs (i.e. you find yourself in the desert or similar scenarios), I don't require anyone to keep track of this stuff, and won't keep track myself.
Player: "I loot the body."
GM: "There are still a whole bunch of orcs around, while you're searching a body you won't be looking out for danger..."
Player:"I mean, I shoot that orc over there."
This did make me think about how I never really dock them time for looting - it's another thing that has been made abstract in my game, but the time it takes should still be important, especially if they're tracking spell time.
On the other hand, it's only really a concern between encounters, because nobody who can still contribute to the fight will start looting when there's still enemies around, at least not in our games.
I have a player who prefers to play rogues who has had her concept of stealth completely snafu-ed by MMOs. She can't wrap her head around the idea that she can't simply hit a button and go into "stealth mode", nor can she run around the entire game world in "stealth mode" all the time. I try to be patient, but lately when she asks the impossible I simply say "No," followed by "the rules are in your book. Start reading." Might be time for me to get out from behind the screen before I get snarky.
Did you have a proper talk with her? I mean not just "No, doesn't work!" but a proper explanation of how things work, how they don't work, and why they work that way? Getting people's minds into perspective often helps
Oh, and when attacking lesser creatures led by a stronger one, she always says "I attack the mob."
Ha, mobs.
"The mob attacks you."
"I attack the mob back."
"Ehm.. there are several people there you know."
"Then I attack one of the mobses!" (It's more funny in German)
Either you allow the PC to do something that no sane person with an IQ over 10 would actually do
Of course you do that. If you don't, you won't have a game. Adventuring is something no sane person with an IQ higher than their age would do. You endure crappy conditions most of the time, making camp in the wilderness even if it seems as if the weather gods hate you, you don't get to have a proper wash, you have to eat crappy food, and are bored a lot of the time.
And when you're not, you face mortal danger and horrors you couldn't come up even in your worst, bed-wetting nightmares.
And for what? For some shiny metal you use to buy useless crap that won't let you do anything than keep up this miserable lifestyle for longer.
The standard state of mind for an adventurer is stark raving mad, because sane people will just get a normal job.