Phazzle's page

That's only 19 points.

Good catch. I did it quick. You see where I am going with it

Thanks for all of the input. I am not too hot on Unsanctioned Knowledge. I appreciate the point about versatility but I dont want to waste time in combat casting spells and I dont want to dump that much into Int. I want the character to be a front line damage dealer that can take a ton of punishment while dealing out insane amounts of damage and ridiculous amounts of damage when smiting. I see the point about boosting STR to 18. Point taken. DEX also seems like it is a bit less important as well as CON. That gives me quite a lot to play around with. So...

STR 17
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

Feats: Weapon Focus (Something), Power Attack

The above gives me a lot of healing from LoH without the disadvantages of dumping stats and great saves. At second level my saves will be 7/3/6 and I will have 20 hit points and 4 LoH/day. I will have a respectable attack bonus and will be putting out a great deal of damage +5 (XdX + 7) when power attacking.

Later on down the line I can decide where to put my higher level feats.

Phazzle, any chance that we can see what you came up with?

Not sure what you are asking. There is a stat block in the first post.

I don't think it's necessary to dump wisdom down so low. You are also removing the possibility of using Unsanctioned Knowledge with only a 10 int. I would change your point-buy as follows: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14.

I would also suggest swapping Weapon Focus for Power Attack, as it has a lot more bang right now. If you want a neat trait, Blade of Mercy will let you do non-lethal damage with any slashing weapon.

What spells would you suggest?

Yeah, I'm back...

So I have decided to go with a greatsword wielding Paladin for my first PFS Character. I had thought about a TWF Paladin but based on the advice I got here and my own reflection it is sub-optimal and it is in my nature to optimize. So, I have what I think is a good start for a Two Handed build but I am looking for some advice on how to scale feats, stats, etc.

Here is what I have

Name: Domallius Veneloric
Class: Paladin - 1
Race: Human

STR 18
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 15

Feats: Toughness, Weapon Focus: Greatsword

Skills: Diplomacy, Craft (Armor) (for day job), Perception.

Thanks in advance!

Phazzle wrote:

There is a section in the PFS guide that stipulates that characters with crafting skills can use their "day job," to make additional money.

Just as a suggestion, Craft is based in INT, Perform is based on CHA. If you were to take Perform: Oratory, your day job could be to perform rousing sermons for the church, and they'd pay you a lot better.

I considered that. It turns out to be a wash since perform isn't a class skill.

Just one thing:

Paladin wrote:

Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Note the "at 2nd level" part.

EDIT: A second thing - why the Craft(armor)? You know you can't craft items in PFS, right?

There is a section in the PFS guide that stipulates that characters with crafting skills can use their "day job," to make additional money.

Here's the final build.

Name: Domallius Veneloric
Alignment: LG
Class: Paladin/1
Deity: Iomedae
Faction: Silver Crusade
Race: Human (Chelaxian)

STR 16
DEX 15
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 16

HP: 15
Init: +2
AC: 17
F/R/W: 6/5/3
CMB: 4
CMD: 16

Skills:

Craft, Armor +4
Diplomacy +7
Perception -1

Feats:

Two Weapon Fighting
Toughness

Special Abilities:
*Paladin, level 1

Traits:
Beneficent Touch
A Sure Thing

Thanks to everyone for your help. If you have any other suggestions to offer I am still open to changes.

Yep. Totally raw.

Note The cestus is not at good as a shield.
It has lower base damage and doesn't protect you.
It does give you a way to be armed and use your hand for other stuff.
Every char should wear a cestus as a backup. Decent crit range and does 2 kinds of damage.

Once you get Quickdraw and a Quickdraw shield, that's a better option.
the shield does bigger damage and ups AC.

the trick IS a bit rules abusive but is totally RAW.
The strictist DM will limit you to one draw a round but that's enough.

It appears that the Quickdraw Shield only comes in the light variety. A light spiked shield is virutally identical to the cestus apart from the crit range that is actually better for the cestus.

With that in mind I think I can actually forgo the shield entirely. Sure I am losing the +1 to AC and I can't shield bash but I wasn't all that interested in the higher level shield feats. I just wanted the ability to heal myself as a swift action. I could take quickdraw to leverage the shield but I opted for toughness instead.

Good input though. Thanks. I didn't know about the cestus and it changed the complexion of the character entirely.

Good feedback. In fact, the main reason that I wanted to use the shield was that it allowed me to use my hand to LoH. The cestus accomplishes the same thing without having to spend a feat.

Is it kosher in PFS?

I am still going to build a TWF paladin. As Jiggy said DPR goes through the roof when smiting and that was the whole idea. I see the diminishing returns with GTWF but I think that ITWF is still worth it. With that in mind I can start my Dex at 15 and free up some points.

If I go for...

STR 16
DEX 15(+1 at 4 and 8)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 15 (+1 at 12)

...I will still get an attack bonus that is plenty high and I won't have to take Weapon Finesse. I will have a respectable amount of hit points. I will not be gimping myself on feats and the low WIS will be balanced by CHA.

Feat Progression:
1 - TWF, Improved Shield Bash
3 - Double Slice
5 - Power Attack
7 - Extra Lay on Hands
9 - ITWF

Skills:

Diplomacy
Perception (though I will still suck at it early on)
One floating skill point to spread around as I level

I don't see the value of Improved Shield Bash and Improved Bull Rush since I will want my opponents to be close enough to hit, but I see where you were going with that build. It's just not what I had in mind. This character is capable of turning the blender switch on with Smite as well as being able to self-heal effectively and have good saves.

Build requirements.

1 : Paladin
2 : Two Weapon Fighting for sword and shield.
3 : Cha for LoH, Divine Grace, and other paladin ability's.

Problems I can see in the build.
1 : Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting for this type of build are not needed. They can increases your DPR some.
2 : For a paladin this will be very feet intensive. and require you to go.
Human : Two Weapon Fighting
1 : Improved Shield Bash
3 : Double Slice
5 : Power Attack
7 : Shield Slam
9 : Improved Bull Rush
11 : Shield Master
3 : To much focus on Dex, and Cha. in the point buy. The Diminished return is going to hurt. I have made to meny characters that are dex base to find out at higher level play they become almost usless. There are exceptions to this. Paladin is not one of them most of the time.

My suggestions :
1 : Ability points 20 point buy human.
Str 17 (+1 At 4) Dex 15 (+1 At 8) Con 14 Int 10 Wis 7 Cha 14
2 : Feet's are set buy build consept.
3 : Skill's Diplomacy, and Perception. Are the two most important skill's I know of.
4 : Don't use favored class bonus for skill point. You will want it for HP. Reaching 0 HP happens and characters can die. So my best suggestion is get more.
5 : Trait's This really depends on faction. I'm guessing silver crusade. If that is the case Beneficent Touch can be nice.
Beneficent Touch: Once per day, when you cast a spell or use a class ability that heals hit point damage, reroll any 1s that appear on the dice and take the new roll (even if it is another 1).
6 : Going with a light shield. Main hand weapon can be one handed. For flavor I prefer the favord weapon of the god or goddes the character worships.

Good input. I'll think on it. It seems as if you are suggesting that power attack will balance out the loss of improved and greater two weapon fighting. If that is the case then it might make more sense to use a two hander and scrap two weapon fighting altogether. The main reason for TWF was so that I could use it in conjunction with Smite but it loses it's luster if I am only hitting 4 times/round at 12th level.

Back on topic...does it make sense to invest in Perception and Swim even if they are not class skills?

Phazzle wrote:

BTW...I have thought long and hard about Forrest Gump's stats. Forrest Gump would definitely have a high wisdom, a respectable cha, and a low as dirt Int. He was very disciplined, knew what he wanted out of life, and most people seemed to like him.

Gump's stats

INT 7
WIS 15
Cha 12

IMHO

I could go with that, I guess... his Wisdom was often as a result of seeing things in incredibly simple terms, like a child might, not due to any great insight or philosophical view so it makes it kind of hard to quantify. I might go INT-7, WIS-14, CHA-13... but that doesn't change the mod's so its all good. :-P

Drill Sergeant: "Gump! Why did you assemble your weapon so quickly!?"

Gump: "Because you told me to Drill Sergeant!"

Many people in the military cannot grasp this simple concept. Gump was indeed a "some kind of genius."

INT 7 is hardly "low as dirt". Gump is probably closer to 4 or 5. Remember, NPC stat arrays (even the heroic ones!) all include an 8, which means that one-sixth of the population of Golarion has INT 8. A single point below one-sixth of the population is hardly Gump status.

I always aligned stats with IQ points. Gump's IQ was 70 which is borderline retarded (the word is being used in the proper context so please do not flame me). I figure 70=7 (cucumber) just as 18=180 (supra genius). Stephen Hawking, would have something in the neighborhood of 24. Which you could achieve at his level, assuming he is at least a 16th level astrophysicist :)

BTW...I have thought long and hard about Forrest Gump's stats. Forrest Gump would definitely have a high wisdom, a respectable cha, and a low as dirt Int. He was very disciplined, knew what he wanted out of life, and most people seemed to like him.

Gump's stats

INT 7
WIS 15
Cha 12

IMHO

Ok. I think that I have worked out a solution.

So, at first level I take 2 weapon fighting and Weapon finesse. I fight with a Rapier and a Short Sword and forego Shield bash until Level 3. The main reason for taking it is so that I can still full attack and use LoH in the same round. Since a light shield (spiked) is a light weapon I can still apply weapon finesse to it as I level and pump Dex. I like your advice about Cha Jiggy since only boosting it to 15 gives me a few extra points.

Here is how the stats play out:

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 15

This configuration allows me to have a 19 dex when I am ready for Greater Two Weapon fighting. It also has a nice Con and a respectable strength. Int is not gimped and wisdom is a wash due to Cha. I can increase Cha at 4th level and use 8th and 12th level increases for Dex (if I ever get that far).

I also have the option of as many as 4 maxed skills. Diplomacy and Acrobatics (even though it is non-class) seem like good options. Does anyone have any more suggestions on skill points?

Edit: In light of the importance of perception perhaps...

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 15

That way I only lose one skill point and I can still boost perception, not to mention the increase to my will save.

At this point it is really a choice of which stat to dump int or wis. One of them has to go.

Phazzle wrote:

I could also take Weapon Finesse: Shortsword at first level and forgo Improved Shield Bash until level 3.

Did you mean Weapon Focus? Because you don't pick a weapon with Weapon Finesse - it applies to any "Finessable" weapon at any time.

Quote:

What skills are important for PFS?

My main three suggestions are these:

Be able to fight.
Be able to move.
Be able to investigate.

Accomplish those as you see fit.

Good call on the weapon finesse. I was thinking 3.5. So investing in Diplomacy and acrobatics is probably a good call.

On 1) It depends on how you read the rule. I actually posted a thread on it the other day. It is up to the GM, but if I am holding a small shield I technically have an open hand that I can hold items in.

RAW:

Light Shield - You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield's weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

LoH - Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.

I could also take Weapon Finesse: Shortsword at first level and forgo Improved Shield Bash until level 3. That way I could fight with two Shortswords at +2/+2. On the other hand if I have a 16 in strength as well as dex the point is somewhat moot. I hear you on the Con and the Cha, but I question the value of an average Int. I would essentially be paying 4 points for one skill point. As Jiggy pointed out as a human I will have at least 2 skill point per level in any situation. What skills are important for PFS?

Edit: Jacked stats up.

Thanks for the input. I think I can get away with dumping Int but it only makes sense to dump Wis and augment Cha since every point that I put into Cha works as much as a point in Wis.

With the stats that you suggested above I would have a +3 Will save and with either of my stat options I would have a +4 will save. I might consider toning down the Cha to 16 but I wouldn't want to go lower than that.

Str 16
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 7
Cha 16

Might be more appropriate. This configuration is virtually the same where my will save is concerned.

Hello there everyone. Going to my first PFS event tomorrow night and planning on playing a TWF shield bashing Paladin build. I have played this at higher levels and really enjoyed it. He was practically indestructible with good saves, LoH, and a high Dex that contributed to his armor class without limiting his mobility. The problem that I am facing is that while the build works like gangbusters at higher levels it will be rather weak at lower levels since I will have to spread my stats out so much. I also have to wonder if I can afford to dump Int as well as Wis. Here are the two options that I have come up with.

Race: Human - for extra feat and skill point (both builds)

Str 12
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 18

or

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 7
Cha 18

Feats: Improved Shield Bash (planning on using a light spiked shield so that I can still LoH as a swift action), Two Weapon Fighting.

A high Cha is important to me for the boost to saves and extra LoH, not to mention the sick bonus to Smite which will only get better as I level. I will have to boost Dex every four levels to get the minimum requirements for Greater Two Weapon fighting, but of course that is waaay down the road.

My big questions are:

1) I already know that the build is sick at higher levels but is it viable at lower levels? I don't want to get stuck playing a sucky character for years.

2) Is it worth it to go full dump on Int and Cha? The other paladin that I played did this and his major disadvantage was that he was skill poor. He couldn't ride anything, didn't know anything, and while he was a speedster in a chain shirt it was hard for him to jump and move through rough terrain.

Feedback is appreciated. Don't hold back give it to me straight doc!

I recently played a TWF Paladin at level 12 with a 25-point buy and he rocked the house. Six attacks on a full attack coupled with smite evil was sick. Another player played a TWF rogue and when we flanked we ate the baddies alive!

I enjoyed it so much I have been thinking about making the build my first PFS character (which is why I looked up this thread). Still struggling with the 20-point buy though. So far it looks like this.

Race: Human

Str 12
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 7
Cha 18

Suggestions appreciated.

I have no problem with a Paladin pausing and dropping his sword to heal a companion, but I think it's a bit silly to have a paladin drop his sword or shield to heal himself. I would imagine that he could just smack his shielded hand against his chest as a swift action. But, oh well, whadda ya gonna do?

I am primarily using it to heal myself during combat. So, if you were to take quick draw could you drop your weapon as a free action, use LoH as a swift action, retrieve your weapon as a free action, and then commence with your attacks?

So as it is written this ability seems pretty weak.

Any Palidin worth his/her salt is going to either wield a 2H weapon, sword and shield, or two weapons. No Paladin that I have ever heard of is going to walk around with a free hand.

This means that to use the ability while wielding a sword and shield a paladin must drop her sword and use it and then draw her sword. This kind of defeats the purpose of using LoH on herself as a swift action. Even with Quick Draw it seems kind of clunky. I have heard of Paladins who will use light shields to keep a hand "free," but my archetypical paladin carries a big ass shield.

What is the consensus on shield-wielding Paladins? Can you use LoH with a heavy shield or do you need an extra feat to make the concept work?

I had always thought that Dazzling Display in conjunction with Terrifying Howl makes for a nice combo. It looks like this can no longer be done, however, which would be a shame.

I had a Shadowdancer PC in my last session who would sneak up behind something, use the full attack action the next round (with all of his sneak attack damage on each attack), and then HiPS. My question is can you HiPS with a 5-foot adjustment after a full attack or do you need a move action to HiPS?

Thanks.

I loved Cyberpunk 2020 back in the day. Would love to see some Paizo products geared toward the Cyberpunk genre.

Good stuff guys. Keep up the good work.

Greetings all.

I am planning on writing an adventure and I wanted to include a classic monster, the Umber Hulk, but I cannot find anything in the SRD. Maybe I am missing it. Has anyone done the legwork on this already?

Also I had an idea for a completely unique monster that has never been used before. It's called a Flind Mayer and it is a tentacled, psyonic, abberation that dominates and enslaves it's enemies. It eats brains too! I know it's an outside chance, but has anyone developed a creature like this for Pathfinder?

;)

Thanks in advance.

Phazzle wrote:

Zyren Zemerys wrote:

Things I really hate (player quotes):

- Oh? Were we supposed to do the level up during the week?

This...grrr!

I set up a website specifically so that my players could access XP information between sessions and show up prepared.

No kidding. I'm a mean DM. My rule is that if your character sheet isn't updated and ready for me to review at the start of play then you have to wait until the next session to level up. No updating stuff at the last minute and slowing things down for everyone else.

There is a guy that I KNOW is going to show up unprepared next session. He is the type that picks a pet spell and casts it over and over and then pretends that he is actually helping the party. Last session he had received some temporary ability score damage and said "Wow, this sucks, who can heal this." You can! You are a Druid!

Anyway, when he comes unprepared I just plan on ignoring his leveling questions in front of the whole group. Like he's not even there. I have also thought about designing individual encounters that are not so challenging that you are in any real danger unless you absolutely do not know how to play your class, just to teach him a lesson.

Things I really hate (player quotes):

- Oh? Were we supposed to do the level up during the week?

This...grrr!

I set up a website specifically so that my players could access XP information between sessions and show up prepared.

Also, along the same lines. I hate it when players ask me for expereince points right after the session ends!

Sorry about not quoting, still learning this board's interface.

Basically I keep romance as a supple plot device. Anything past that is innuendo.

This guy would the the subject in the ground. Bombarding me with unneeded questions; what does she look like, what's she wearing, is she the type that does X,Y or Z.

I told him, he's a grown man and while that is in some books and fiction, I try to keep my games PG 13 generally. Though combat is the exception to that, I read Berserk.

Man did it irk me, had a lot of story potential...but would ignore plot hooks, split the party, and just kept up with I need to win some fights so I can go get some.

It was a headache.

This is one of the areas of my game that I need to work on as a GM. I absolutely hate to engage in erotic discussions with players and avoid them like the plague. Even saying something like "The buxom wench saunters up to your table and says 'Hey big fellah,'" feels wierd and forced. Fortunately most of my players use Cha as a dump stat so it is reasonable to think that most women would run at the sight of them.

Update.

So, I set this storyline in motion last night. For the last couple of weeks I have used the optional rules for depravity from heroes of horror. Essentially, I modified them to apply increasing penalties for players who do clearly evil acts who do not have an evil alignment.

The player in question gained a point of depravity a couple of sessions ago for killing someone in a game of cards because he owed the owner of the tavern a "favor." Because his opponent initiated the fight I gave him one depravity point.

Last night Karvas, the leader of the thieves guild, gathered some of his closest allies and offered to bring the PC into the thieves guild (the PC is acting as double agent for a CG radical group). The price of admission? He had to kill an innocent merchant in cold blood in front of Karvas. Before he did so Karvas gave him the option of taking the innocent man out of the woods to safety and assured him that he would never bother him again. The player killed the merchant for Karvas's favor and gained three points of depravity. Karvas also gave him a mission to retrieve a book that he needs. The PC dutifully informed his other employer, Richard Maurer, of the mission, but neglected to mention the murder. This book contains a prophecy that Karvas needs if he is to resurrect the spirit of Omicidio, the god of murder, strife, and addiction.

So, both the PC and player are aware of the consequences of committing evil acts. The PC now has a permanent -1 to AC for the depravity because he has become so aggressive that he has begun to neglect himself in combat. If he does one more evil thing and does not change alignment he will become so aggressive that, when in combat, he will start to take attacks of opportunity even against his allies.

Thanks for the input so far. This is working out well. All of my PCs like the story, except the PC who is committing the evil acts. He LOVES it!

Grrr....

Had a frustrating experience over the weekend with a player. I am not a GM who expects optimized characters but I do expect players to know how to play their characters.

This fellah is just plain lazy. A few months ago when we started the campaign he dragged his feet making a character so another player helped him. He insisted on playing a divine spellcaster, a druid, IMO the most difficult class to play because of the myraid of abilities on top of the long list of spells. He made the character just so he could be silly with him and paint himself as a reclusive crazy loner.

So, the other night I have four other players sitting around the table, locked in, who know their abilities inside and out and every time this guy comes up in the initiative he is flipping through the book or looking through his spell cards. He was very proud of the spell cards he printed as if to say "look, I am a good player because I have a printer." Thought apparently no one told him that you actually have to read your spells or know what they do. He spent the whole night casting call lightning since it is the only spell he knows how to use. I had lent him my book for a month so that he could read up on the druid class but he plainly told me that he "didn't have time to look it over," and that he "was still 'learning,' how to play his class."

I told him that the campaign was only going to last for 5 or 6 more sessions and by the time he did learn how to play his class it would be over. I have suggested that he play something simpler like a fighter with vital strike and a big ol' greataxe but he LOVES his druid and will not part with him. The party gets along fine since the other four players are spot on but it makes combat longer to have him at the table since he never knows what he is doing and he leeches their experience points and treasure.

Just had another discussion with my friend about creating a golemlike lich.

So...here are the steps that I think would have to happen.

1)Create a simmilar phylactery.
2)Create a golem that is capable of speaking and making gestures. A flesh golem may actually be ideal since it has human components.
3)Transfer your soul into the golem via magic jar making your body lifeless and your phylactery the destination of your soul should the golem be destroyed.
4)Now there is the question of what to do with your perfectly good body. It is "lifeless," which is not dead so i think it would probably age. If your body dies, even of natural causes then you will die which is ok if you want to become a lich but not if you want to become a golem. So, you would have to find another way to keep your body alive indefinitely. This would be easily accomplished via temporal stasis, however, I would think that imprisonment would be even more effective since it would be harder to find your body. On the other hand though, that would mean that you would be stranded in your imprisoned body if your phylactery was destroyed!

?? why would a golem need to drink a potion ??

The human drinks the potion
If he makes his save, his essence would be transfered to the golem
If he failed his save.... True Death.

Becoming a lich has always been risky.

My point was that if he became a "golem lich," and could no longer drink potions as a result then that would kind of defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place.

Phazzle wrote:

Scott_UAT wrote:

I got a character who's bounced around in a few classes (for RP proposes :D ) but I plan on continuing alchemist up to 20. (Goblin Alchemist 6, Rogue 4, Shadow Dancer 1, Pathfinder Chronicler 1) I wanna take craft construct eventually and make the little gob-oh into a big bad boss "lich" :D

What do you think the "golem," would look like?

First thing that came to mind for me was a flesh golem but I suppose any tranference of a soul into an inanimate body could be considered a lich.

The million dollar question is. Can a golem drink a potion?

I got a character who's bounced around in a few classes (for RP proposes :D ) but I plan on continuing alchemist up to 20. (Goblin Alchemist 6, Rogue 4, Shadow Dancer 1, Pathfinder Chronicler 1) I wanna take craft construct eventually and make the little gob-oh into a big bad boss "lich" :D

What do you think the "golem," would look like?

Rather than use the "assistant," it would be more reliable to use the Clone spell and safer too. Mess up ghoulifying and embalming your clone body? Okay, well, at least you have another data point and maybe a cool undead minion to use as a body double.

Using your primary body for the first try is a recipe for disaster, especially with an assistant: "Igor, you fool! I said to inject me with formaldehyde! This is cooking sherry! *HIC*"

I expect that alchemists would use some variety of the Clone spell. By the RAW, they'd do this via Magical Artisan (Craft Alchemy) + Craft Wondrous Item and thereby make a hypothetical Elixir of Cloning which you'd pour in the vat, toss in a lump of the desired flesh, and let it percolate a few months until your new clone body is ready.

Then again, most alchemists wouldn't really mind using their primary body to achieve lichdom, though would likely be more devious about their rebirth. For example, "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward" is an excellent example of an alchemical lich.

Excellent idea. If you are a high enough caster level to create a clone then it alters the process considerably and you can theorize many different approaches.

I think that the basic model for lichdom is.

1) Work on my "body," from another "body." and prepare it for eternity.
2) Raise "myself," as an undead creature.
3) Get back into the undead creature.

Given all of the spells and abilities and whatnot you could extrapolate dozens of methods for attaining lichdom.

The one above is based on what I think the MINIMUM requirements would be to become a lich. The process above is certainly risky. Right now I am thinking of including an NPC in future adventures that botched it and is now trapped in his phylactery posessing whatever he comes into contact with and working furiously to right the mistakes he made.

Excellent suggestion! If we get enough ideas together maybe we can stat out more specific scenarios.

Thanks!

Interesting you should say this. I was thinking that if my players ran across a lich in my E6 game, I would just make them a ghoul who kept their spellcasting abilities.

Great minds think alike.

You mentioned an alchemical component.

People normally associate being a lich with being a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer. With the advent of the advanced player's guide- what do you think about the prospects of an alchemical lich?

Indeed. Using the process above as a template I would say that an alchemist could attain lichdom at 17th level as long as he knows the extracts for magic jar and create undead. I do not know the class all that well though so I may be mistaken. Naturally, a high alchemy skill would make the preparation of the corpse that much easier.

The exact process is supposed to be different for each individual according the Lich entry in the Monster Manual. That does not mean having "one" method for everyone is wrong, just something I wanted to point out.

My personal opinion on this is that the process would probably be simmilar but there would be some grey areas. I see a lich as less of a ritualistic process and more of a scientific process.

I addressed the "everyone is different," caveat by assuming that it applied to the preparation of the caster's body. For instance, a dwarf lich would probably need different preparation than a human lich. If you attempt to preserve the corpse with an embalming fluid what is the precise amount of formeldahide that you must use based on the weight, etc? You will probably have to kill a bunch of people to find out.

I imagine that the first lich, let's say Vecna, for the sake of argument had to have a considerable amount of knowledge before he embarked on his quest for immortality but the pieces were already there. If you put Magic Jar and Create Undead in front of a spellcaster with significant intelligence I imagine him saying to himself "You know, what if...?"

Cool stuff there Phazzle.

I'd think though their phylactery could be anything they wished it to be...from the box you mention to an amulet to a weapon...or even their familiar.

Yeah, I just cut and pasted the phylactery description from the SRD. I should include the other options there as well though. Thanks!

A buddy and I were going over what the ritual to become a lich might actually look like from a purely mechanical perspective. What we came up with was pretty close to what the Lich template actually does so with a little judicious house ruling whenever my party defeats a lich or someone trying to become a lich I can actually show them what they were researching in game terms.

Of course I don’t want to ruin the allure of the lich by saying that this process is the be all and end all of lichdom. It would likely require considerable modifications for a divine spellcaster, simply because they do not have access to certain spells (though miracles could be substituted for some). It might also be more ritualistic, i.e. less alchemical preparation and more prayers and rituals. The “everyone is different,” caveat can still be worked in since preparation of the body leaves a lot open to interpretation. Also, it us about four hours worth of rules lawyering to come up with the recipe with access to perfect information as well as the insights that we incorporated from second edition sourcebooks. In its present form the recipe would require thousands upon thousands of hours of research and preparation

Anyone seeking to become a Lich must have the following feats, spells, and features.

Magic Jar
Create Undead
Contingency
Teleport
Arcane Spellcaster
Craft Wondrous Item
An assistant, preferably willing
Caster Level 11

Step 1 – Create a phylactery

PHYLACTERY
Aura strong necromancy; CL 11th
Slot -; Price 240,000 gp; Weight at least 1 lb
DESCRIPTION The most common form of phylactery is a sealed metal box containing strips of parchment on which magical phrases have been transcribed. The box is Tiny and has 40 hit points, hardness 20, and a break DC of 40. Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.
When a lich is destroyed, its phylactery (which is generally hidden by the lich in a safe place far from where it chooses to dwell) immediately begins to rebuild the undead spellcaster's body nearby. This process takes 1d10 days—if the body is destroyed before that time passes, the phylactery merely starts the process anew. After this time passes, the lich wakens fully healed (albeit without any gear it left behind on its old body), usually with a burning need for revenge against those who previously destroyed it.

CONSTRUCTION
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, Magic Jar, Contingency, Teleport; Cost 120,000 gp

Step 2 – The switch

This step involves an assistant. The would be lich must cast Magic Jar on the phylactery then possess the body of the assistant. Once in the assistant’s body the spellcaster must Create Undead on his lifeless body and raise himself as a ghoul and then spend however many weeks/months it takes to prepare his body with alchemy checks, heal checks, spellcraft checks, etc. This is where the “everybody is different clause,” comes in. The research required to produce the process would likely require a lot of vile, painful and disgusting experimentation on unwilling subjects so there is no doubt that a lich is plenty evil except in the rarest of circumstances. After the body is prepared well enough to endure eternity the spellcaster can then transfer his soul back into his body. After his soul has been transferred the bond becomes permanent and the spellcaster becomes a lich.

Explanation of abilities

When compared the ghoul and the lich have a bit in common.

1)Naturally, they both have all of the undead traits
2)The Ghoul’s more powerful cousin the Ghast also has paralyzing touch.
3)Ghouls also have natural armor
4)As undead they are also immune to cold

Furthermore many of the lich’s abilities can be rationalized simply by considering its nature

1)The ability bonuses come over time naturally as the lich ages. It is usually assumed that even the weakest liches are very old.
2)The +4 channel resistance would only be natural since a lich is a highly intelligent undead that was once a humanoid spell-caster.
3)The spells cast on the phylactery allow the lich to reassemble himself in the event of his body’s destruction. When his body is destroyed it triggers a contingency that casts teleport. The location is always right next to the phylactery (considered familiar 4% chance of failure) so that the lich can begin to piece his body back together with the 0 level spells mend and mage hand.
4)Damage Reduction/bludgeoning and magic make sense. As the lich slowly rots his body becomes less tangible and he takes less damage.
5)Electricity immunity is not too far fetched since there is little liquid in the dried out husk of a body to conduct electricity and cause damage. Like casting lightning bold on a piece of beef jerky.
6)Fear aura - yeah...it's scary!

A couple of abilities are more of a stretch but are not completely out of the blue.

1)The negative energy touch attack is the hardest to rationalize but one can reason that plenty of powerful corporeal undead, like wights and vampires have energy drain abilities. Furthermore, frankly, this ability is really there for flavor since a lich is not likely to rely on this ability in combat. If he is pummeling people is probably out of spells and close to death. It is also highly likely that the lich is intimately familiar with spells like Enervation and has learned to cast them reflexively.

Please take a look and tell me what you think. Also open to suggestions insights. Thanks!

Jandrem wrote:

I run into that in some of the games I run. My wife loves Drow, and has wanted to make one for a long time. 2 guys we game with, HATE Drow. Caps doesn't do it justice. In any game, setting, etc, any remote mention of Drow sends these 2 into a murderous fury. So, needless to say, my wife feels a little inhibited when a chance to roll up a character comes around.

I personally think the situation sucks. I bought her the Drow of the Underdark book for her birthday one year and she's never got to touch any of the material inside, because of these 2 guys.

Ugh. Condolences on those chuckleheads. I say encourage her to play a straight-up drow and tell the other two players to deal with their butthurt like mature adults.

Alternately, if she really wants to mess with them? Tell her to read up on this: Sandwich Stoutaxe. (NSFW - language)

Now if they BAWWWWWW about it they have no damn excuse.

(has never played a drow, but hot damn if the rabid anti-drow crowd hasn't gotten more annoying than the Driz'zt syndrome crowd ever was)

True, I would not end a game over it but it was annoying to see player after player who insisted upon playing good drow.

At my gaming table it would probably lead to some good-natured ribbing. Fortunately there are no Drow in my homebrew :)

Need to generate some NPCs quick without all the legwork involved. Anyone know a good source?

Sean FitzSimon wrote:

Kryzbyn wrote:

Laurefindel wrote:

- Players that are a R-L couple and are plying in the same game, who end-up breaking-up in the middle of a campaign.

I know it's not really their fault and that it is usually for the best and that I'm horrible for saying this, but it *does* drive me nuts...

Or even worse the "DM Spouse" that runs amok becasue their spouse won't reign them in.

Or even worse than that, the player who assumes that the "DM Spouse" is getting favorable treatment & game secrets, when really the DM is harder on him/her to maintain fairness.

Oh snap! I see what you did there...

Unfortunately, in my experience, no assumption was needed as it was quite obvious, but I imagine that your scenario can and does happen as well.

Fortunately we don't have these cumbersome problems at my table since my players and I are all single and pathetic.

I think that's why people played Malkavians...

They had an in-game driven reason to throw that angst crap in their faces, and have fun doing it :)

Once I was playing in a game where for some reason there was a threat in the vampire community. Applying D&D logic to the situation I was sitting there going "Ok, we need some guns, anyone have any gun connections? We also should look into silver bullets. Carry at least a clip in case we run into some werewolves. Gotta make sure the guns are unregistered. Don't want to get caught. So, lets look up some leads? Who knows this guy? Who are his friends? Where does he hang out?"

The storyteller looked at me like I was crazy as they started to sit there and discuss, for HOURS, how awful it was that said threat was present.

hogarth wrote:

The best is when you have two players in the party, each trying to "out-mysterious" or "out-loner" the other. :-)

The best response to these as a player is to make their opposite. A bard or fey creature or otherwise very outgoing, cheery, and optimistic character. It's even more awesome if the DM plays along so that all the NPCs get to know your guy and really like him while utterly ignoring ANGST STORM 2010 sitting in the corner.

Ha ha! There was a guy that I met on a message board waaay back when Vampire: The Masquerade was super popular who said that he would create happy well-adjusted vampires just to be a counterpoint to all of the angsty goth kids.

I can only imagine

Vampire 1: I am a Ventrue named Asmodan, an aristocrat, I bear the curse of undeath with quiet grace.

Vampire 2: I am a Gorth, of the clan Bruha, an angry anti-establishment vampire that rides motorcycles even in the winter months!

Vampire 3: I am Luca, a Torreador, I express my despair through post-modern works of art.

Vampire 4: Hey all! I'm Joe the vampire. Yep. I drink blood. Blood is yummy.

Players who roleplay by talking in koans

NPC: What is your name?

Player: My name is the wind and like the wind it whispers...whispers...

GM: DUDE! You are a dwarven barbarian with a 6 cha. Just tell him your $%&( name!