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I remember my first magic item I ever received; it was a +1 Sword of Wounding broadsword in 1st Edition. It was awesome! I was playing a Fighter 3 / Magic-User 2 (can’t really remember) and I thought it was the best thing ever created. Now, it seems that magic items are considered a requirement and a right. To me this has taken away from the majesty of the game.
For me to fix this in my games, I have made it so that the knowledge of making major magical items has been lost. Most of my mid level items are based off of Weapons of Legacy, they scale in power but more focused on intended use. Players can only gain higher level magic items through adventuring or through recovering lost knowledge or materials through a quest type format. The magic is out there, but it has to be found.
My questions to the boards are:
1. Does anyone else see this in a similar light?
2. If so, what are you doing to bring back the Majesty of a +1 Wounding Broad Sword?
Not that I know much about D&D Essentials but I believe they did something like this there too... ie, saying "some things just can't be created by players" and therefore making them either unique, or exceptionally rare. I think I'd do the same thing but instead of making an arbitrary statement that "players can't make it" I'd say something like "some items are not forged intentionally by crafters but are imbued by the forces of nature independent of craftsmen.. they inherit certain traits as a result of heroic acts and can not simply be crafted" etc.
Something like a sword that can slay a certain type of creature... I'd give it an elaborate history, make it unique, and say that it developed that ability naturally in the hands of a mighty hero hundreds of years ago after an epic war against that particular race etc. This way the item is filled with majesty and the players know ahead of time that some things just occur "magically" and mysteriously etc.
I tend to agree in some respects, but I think the phenomenon is borne out across our entire culture.
Video games/pinball machines. The "majesty" is lost in that we're now bored with them if we don't score a gazillion points.
Volleyball. The "majesty" of winning a volleyball game is lost in that now we score on every serve.
Medical insurance. The "majesty" of having it is lost in that everyone thinks it's an inalienable right.
Telephones. The "majesty" of speaking over long distances is lost in that everyone has instant communication on their hips.
Good food. The "majesty" of a good home-cooked meal is lost in that we now go out for fast food so often.
4th Edtion. The "majesty" of D&D is lost... :)
It's a cultural thing, IMO, and perhaps one that cannot be avoided without working hard at it. The old adage says, "Familiarity breeds contempt" and I think that's what you're battling. We all know what a +1 sword is and does, for goodness' sake. Blah, blah, blah. Gimme that +3 berserker bane fire-and-brimstone energy weapon of sharpness!
There's a constant drive toward outdoing the past, one-upping what came before, and the consequence is a routine despising of all that brought us here.
To "bring back the majesty" you will have to abandon the ideas hard-coded into the core rulebooks, the notion that "magic is common." Your world will necessarily need to be "magic is majestic" (which is not the same thing as "low magic"). You'll have to work very hard to build a resonance in your players that this +1 short sword is a mighty thing.
Certainly, if you've got good players, that can be done through good RP'ing, but the bulk of establishing the setting still falls on you.
Good luck!
Very good thread. I agree that magic items have lost some of their flavor in PF and recent editions of D&D. In the campaign that I am running I tend to shy away from giving the PCs anything that is all that cool until higher levels and I save up some "budget," by planning adventures around levels 8-11 that do not deliver much loot. I have an adventure that i am planning on springing on the party at level 11 that will send them to the plane of shadow to obtain an ancient prophecy froma city that was transported there when an evil diety died in it. You can bet your keester that I am going to put a truly wicked item in there that one of my PCs character's will cherish for the rest of his adventuring career.
On the plus side, if the magus is any indication, the rash of recent but overall consistent discussion here for a way to run 'low magic' may very well result in us seeing a system of that sort from paizo in a year or two. Its definately something people want, and it is something that could eat up a big chunk of a major rpg book. Though no one yet has actually called for paizo to create such a system directly, maybe it's time.
You're doing it wrong. Magic items aren't special in D&D, and they never will be. Give it up.
What're you, five?
To OP: I play the current "default" version of the game, which requires a magic-heavy loadout for PCs to scale with the CR system. I do indeed empathize somewhat with your position, but can't say I know how to run a game in that style.
On the plus side, if the magus is any indication, the rash of recent but overall consistent discussion here for a way to run 'low magic' may very well result in us seeing a system of that sort from paizo in a year or two. Its definately something people want, and it is something that could eat up a big chunk of a major rpg book. Though no one yet has actually called for paizo to create such a system directly, maybe it's time.
At that point, will we have come full circle back to 1st Edition, only with streamlined game mechanics. Kinda like when Volkswagon brought back the Beetle or Chrysler's new 300?
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...I remember my first magic item I ever received; it was a +1 Sword of Wounding broadsword in 1st Edition.
My questions to the boards are:
1. Does anyone else see this in a similar light?
2. If so, what are you doing to bring back the Majesty of a +1 Wounding Broad Sword?
1. A little, yeah. Granted, most of that is nostalgia for "the good old days" of the earlier editions and all the wonderful campaigns we ran back then (that probably weren't as wonderful as I remember), but yes, I can see where you're coming from.
2. It's all in how you play. I generally try to avoid allowing +2 or greater arms and armor become generic, even if it's just a matter of giving that +1 flaming longsword in the treasure hoard a name and two sentence back-story. I don't have a problem with characters crafting their own items, but I normally require more than a feat and some cash to craft something. Minor magical items are fairly easy for the party to get their hands on, it's often a simple matter of stopping down at the nearest wizard's guild and learning how to enchant a +1 shield.
In order to craft medium or higher magical items the crafter has to either find someone to teach the techniques or find a book/scroll/etc with the information in it. Something I can tie into an adventure. The feat gives them the potential to craft the item, but they still need to find the individual "schematics".
May be I should clear this up a little.
I understand the game mechanics of needing a certain level/type of magic to be successful against the CR of higher level monsters. I am not even trying to touch on that here.
I also don’t want to make it so my player’s 10th level fighter is still swinging his trusty +1 Sword of Wounding because that’s all I ever put in front of him.
I am just wanting to keep the reward of recovering magic items from the dragon’s hoard just that, a reward.
On the plus side, if the magus is any indication, the rash of recent but overall consistent discussion here for a way to run 'low magic' may very well result in us seeing a system of that sort from paizo in a year or two. Its definately something people want, and it is something that could eat up a big chunk of a major rpg book. Though no one yet has actually called for paizo to create such a system directly, maybe it's time.At that point, will we have come full circle back to 1st Edition, only with streamlined game mechanics. Kinda like when Volkswagon brought back the Beetle or Chrysler's new 300?
Depends on alot of things, first of all its not just magic scarcity that made the difference between ADnD and Pathfinder, but more so, the rules would almost certainly be an optional ruleset like hero points or words of power. So we wont be going in any circles, just drawing somewhat familiar patterns.
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Personally, if I wanted to bring back the 'majesty' of magical items I would talk to my DM or, if Dm'ing, do it myself through the campaign design/story.
The majesty of magical items is a subjective concept - each group/person will have different values for the term/phrase - and each group will assign different values to what qualifies as 'majestic'.
Luckily, as a subjective concept, all you have to do to 'fix the problem' is to change how the group/person perceives magical items.
So, yes, start today! Change from within and all that jazz. Make the swines climb a tall mountain for that magical sword - encase it in living ice, let snow flurries fall when it's brandished - have the tavern staff speak of it's shadowy history in hushed tones etc etc etc
Or not.
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i feel exactly like you!
The magic Item thing is the one thing I hate about 3.x
In 2ed edition I spend a lot of time creating unique Items with a history a physical description and special powers, it was my favorite part of being a DM.
Now this is gone, the players would 8and did) only sell the stuff to buy something generic :-(
2. I don't have much hope, at least with my groups, buing exactly what they want right when they want it is important for them - so I have to play along
Why exactly do you want to do this? Not joking, your reasons relate to how it can/should be done.
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.....Personally, if I wanted to bring back the 'majesty' of magical items I would talk to my DM or, if Dm'ing, do it myself through the campaign design/story.
The majesty of magical items is a subjective concept - each group/person will have different values for the term/phrase - and each group will assign different values to what qualifies as 'majestic'.
Luckily, as a subjective concept, all you have to do to 'fix the problem' is to change how the group/person perceives magical items.
So, yes, start today! Change from within and all that jazz. Make the swines climb a tall mountain for that magical sword - encase it in living ice, let snow flurries fall when it's brandished - have the tavern staff speak of it's shadowy history in hushed tones etc etc etc
Or not.
+1 Shock that crackles along the blade and makes your arm hair stand on end, which I found in the cave of Caerbannock, encased in a strange metal tube with coils on the end.
The Alexandrian has a nify article on the topic.
The Alexandrian has a nify article on the topic.
I LOL'd. Very good points in there. Thanks for sharing Ross.
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The Alexandrian has a nify article on the topic.
The section about 'Minor Magic' reminds me of the tiny, candle flame sized fire elemental that the DM introduced to the party.
We called him Flam.
He was kept in a brass lantern and would hum nervously when we approached dark places like caves, tunnels and the like.
We loved that little dude.
One thing I did in a previous campaign (which sort of carried over to the current campaign I run, but it's less of a focus) is as a reward for retrieving a valuable phlebotinum alloy, the players each got to choose a weapon or shield they could have made using the special alloy.
As the players leveled (I think they were level 3 or so when they got the items), the items "leveled" with them. The idea was that the material was bonded with their will, and reflected the character's personality. So the brazen outdoorsman who attacked first, asked questions later, got a hammer that evolved into a golden flaming hammer; the paladin who often put his own needs before the party and worked hard to protect them got defensive abilities that aided both him and his allies, etc.
It was fun, and I do feel the players felt very attached to these special items that were, truly, just for them.
The hard part was coming up with new abilities as they leveled up. It was easy to do at low levels, but at high levels it's hard to come up with things that continue to be useful but don't make the character--or the item--too powerful. I later started leveling the items every other level but giving them more significant boosts.
I can't say everyone should do that all the time, but I guess the point is to focus on a few items and make sure they have good stories behind them. Not every single magic items needs to be made special--sometimes someone just needs a freakin' ring of protection. But have a few stand out over the course of the game.
The other trick I think is to make Ye Olde Magic Item Shoppe a rare thing, or if a common thing, only sell what would be classified as minor magic items. Moderate and Major magic items must be found, won, or rewarded. This way the wizard can be sure to get some spell scrolls he needs and the rogue who keeps blowing his will saves can get a headband of wisdom +2, but finding that awesome sword is a special sword. While I love them, I think video games are to blame for the idea that there should be a store where you can buy and sell every single magic item in the rulebook--and both players and GMs need to understand that that may be a necessity for a monty haul diablo-like game (and nothing is wrong with those, they're fun!) but less so for a tabletop story oriented role playing game.
Play Iron Heroes instead, and don't use half of the 3.5 monster manual.
I personally think that standard D&D, using the standard CR system, is heavily dependent on using magic items. I'm sure it's possible to have a fun game in low magic, but it would take careful DMing and homebrew adventures.
The Alexandrian has a nify article on the topic.
Thank you for the input, and I agree with this, description is the key to everything.
2 players meet in a bar.
1st Player (Wizard):
[Out of Character] Sorry I couldn’t make the last 3 game sesions, work was hectic.
[In Character]‘Lo blade master, I haven’t seen you at the Pub in a 2 moons, where have you been?
2nd Player (Fighter):
[Out of Character] No problem while you were gone we attacked an orc kingdom and I looted this awsome +2 Dwarf Bane Adamantine sword.
[In Character] Harken to my story for it is one of great adventure! Look here master of magic, for I have claimed Ridilkan! Made by orc craftsmen during the great war with the dwarves for their King Beldakarn. With this in his hand did he bring low the dwarven Sky Citidale of Grudach. It is a fell blade made of the strongest adamantine from the heart of the world!
1st Player:
[Out of Character] Hey that’s cool. Before I left I told the DM I was going to Craft some items. And I crafted this +3 holy, cold iron, longsword. It cost me 25kG but I figure what tha heck.
[In Character] A mighty weapon it is. But behold what my magic has brought to the world! Yeamnih, made by my hands! And behold did I buy from the weapon shop 3 streets over a master work cold iron longsword, and imbue with magic forced into my will over 50 days! Bask in its glory!
2nd Player:
[Out of Character]Son of a B****!
[In Character] Son of a B****!
Thanks Ross Byers, that Alexandrian article is good stuff.
I think magic items seem less special for a couple of reasons. Ye Olde Magic Shoppe is the big one. If you know that you can purchase (or sell) any item for its blue book value, that really makes them about as special as a 15' pole. This is especially true when equipping higher level characters.
Another reason for the loss of majesty is the relatively fast progression of modern games compared to AD&D. Back in the day that sword would have been useful and cool for 10-12 game sessions. These days you will be five levels higher, and have a whole bunch of feats and other stuff that make that sword almost an insignificant boost in power. Also there used to be some mystery about those to-hit numbers, and that +2 was not as straight forward as it once was.
To bring back the majesty:
Get rid of the magic shop. (except for items costing 100gp/level)
Make crafting require a special material (a demons claw, a dragons eye, a goblins butt, etc.)
Try not to hand out items no one wants. Nothing makes magic items seem less special then having a big pile of stuff folks consider dead weight. (This can be tricky, because it is often surprising what players want)
Instead of handing out four +1 items, give a single +2 or +3 item.
Be aware of DR, magical movement, and other "required" magical items or abilities.
Start this from the beginning, and state it up front to the players. No one likes to have their toys taken away.
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I agree with the sentiment of the OP myself, and I would like to correct this whenever I create a campaign from scratch.
In the meantime, I found this article by Justin Alexander useful for some other ideas of how to make magic feel more like "magic":
http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/magic-items.html
ETA: LOL I see that someone beat me to it
The section about 'Minor Magic' reminds me of the tiny, candle flame sized fire elemental that the DM introduced to the party.We called him Flam.
He was kept in a brass lantern and would hum nervously when we approached dark places like caves, tunnels and the like.
We loved that little dude.
That certainly sounds cooler than an everburning torch.
I think I was able to bring back the majesty of magic items in my campaing. Here's how I proceded :
First of all, I'm using the slow xp/treasure progression. It is the progression speed that is the most similar to the good old 2nd edition IMO.
Also, I banned the item creation feat from my game (except for brew potion and scribe scroll).
The most important modification that you need to make applies to the ''Magic Item Shop''.
Of course, PC NEED somekind of place to spend their money. But that doesn't mean that they should be able to buy anything they want at anytime. For each town, I'm making a list of avaible magic items and most of them are little trickets under a 1000gp value from the MAGIC ITEMS COMPENDIUM. I increased the buying price of every magic item by 100% and the selling price is still the same, so the players will think twice before selling the Brute's Gauntlets they found on the ogre chieftain to buy a generic +1 greatsword. Right now the PCs are around 5th level and they don't even own a single +1 magic weapon. It's fun because they now need to use some kind of tactics to defeat monster with DR/magic, like bull rushing them into a lava pit, power attacking them until they die or using spells like magic weapon. Since the only spellcasters in the group are a bard and a cleric, the party seems pretty much well balanced to me.
P.S.:
I'm running a Underdark campaing that mostly take place in and around a drow city. Since all drow got a SR of 11+CL, all caster in that campaing are nerfed, except for conjurer/summoner/druid. But, since none of my players are playing one of those, it's not a problem really.
In the early games I played, I never had a copy of the DMG (and wasn't allowed to look at the DM's copy) for several years. I tend to think that this preserved my own sense of wonder and "majesty" at the magic items I encountered, since I really didn't know what they were or how they lined up on a shopping list of wondrous items. Not knowing may have been a contributing factor for me.
By contrast, all my own players have their own copies of the DMG and have already been through the magic item chapter, scoping out exactly what they want to buy. The world I've developed loses some of that "majesty" when the player really wants that magic item he found in a book rather than seeking out a sage, merchant, retired adventurer, etc for advice, ideas, or even the items themselves.
I wonder if many of you have a similar early experience, or if you had free access to the DMG in your games. Think this makes any difference, or is it just my experience?
In the early games I played, I never had a copy of the DMG (and wasn't allowed to look at the DM's copy) for several years. I tend to think that this preserved my own sense of wonder and "majesty" at the magic items I encountered, since I really didn't know what they were or how they lined up on a shopping list of wondrous items. Not knowing may have been a contributing factor for me.
By contrast, all my own players have their own copies of the DMG and have already been through the magic item chapter, scoping out exactly what they want to buy. The world I've developed loses some of that "majesty" when the player really wants that magic item he found in a book rather than seeking out a sage, merchant, retired adventurer, etc for advice, ideas, or even the items themselves.
I wonder if many of you have a similar early experience, or if you had free access to the DMG in your games. Think this makes any difference, or is it just my experience?
+1!
Definitely a contributing factor is flipping through everything and feeling like somehow you are entitled to a thing. I mean, for certain games and genre's, items don't even make sense ... but if the PC's know that *somewhere* in the rule-set "it's out there, waiting for ME to find it" then it's certainly a problem.
"Magic-mart" is definitely the worst of it, though, and it started w/3.0 and the MMO-like video-game RPG's of constantly progressively "better" gear and such.
Sure, the idea was there in 2e, but you were in NO WAY, shape, or form entitled to know what that stuff was about as a player. If I remember right, there was outright advice to DM's about NOT sharing too much info w/players, and warnings to players in the DMG about NOT reading it if they were NOT running a game.
Beyond which, there was like a full chapter devoted to "gear/treasure level" and fine-tuning it in the DMG. So, it told you how to run a gear-poor scenario as well as a Monty-Haul one. It was all about personal comfort, group preferences, and making it all work at the table for each group.
None of this "X amount of treasure is NEEDED by Y level in order to 'be competitive' against threats" nonsense.
*Le sigh*
I pine for the forgotten paradigm of simplicity and rule-choice over complexity and absolute rule of math that seems to dominate now a days.
In the early games I played, I never had a copy of the DMG (and wasn't allowed to look at the DM's copy) for several years. I tend to think that this preserved my own sense of wonder and "majesty" at the magic items I encountered, since I really didn't know what they were or how they lined up on a shopping list of wondrous items. Not knowing may have been a contributing factor for me.
By contrast, all my own players have their own copies of the DMG and have already been through the magic item chapter, scoping out exactly what they want to buy. The world I've developed loses some of that "majesty" when the player really wants that magic item he found in a book rather than seeking out a sage, merchant, retired adventurer, etc for advice, ideas, or even the items themselves.
I wonder if many of you have a similar early experience, or if you had free access to the DMG in your games. Think this makes any difference, or is it just my experience?
The game assumes the items are available. How you dole them out depends on how many adventuers there are in your world. In worlds with adventuring guilds it would make sense for items to be plentiful. If the there are not many adventurers then I would have the players give me a wish list, and they have to quest for some of the items assuming they could even find them. Maybe instead of paying gold for a +1 defending longsword a wizard needs an ingredient to finish a spell. As long as the players are properly equipped they are normally ok.
PS:Don't make the PC's into go fer's though. In my experience that gets old after a while.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think the Alexandrian scores it right.
If Bob the mage makes a +3 Adamantine throwing, returning mace that grants its weilder Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance while held, that's ho hum.
If the party finds The Mace of Thunderstrike crafted by dwarved at Odin's order, in gratitude to a mortal who helped his son defend Asgard and Midgard without concern for his own life, it's going to be more remembered, and in its own way valuable. (and likely to be thought of as a 'relic')
Edit: I think I recalled somewhere that the Mace of St. Cuthbert can be made using the magic item rules, but what makes it an artifact/relic is that it's The Mace of St. Cuthbert not generic magic mace #238
To echo Wraithstrike's comment above, a clever DM can actually turn loot X into the player's 'dream item'
Let's say that a player has on his Christmas list an intelligent +3 axiomatic shocking bastard sword. Over the course of his adventures he encounters...
- A vein of ore who an NPC miner tells him can be refined into adamantine.
- An encounter with a band of constructs ends when one of the constructs is 'awakened' by a fragment of divine power of Brigit.
- A wyrmling blue dragon, who the party kills and sells the body to an... .
- Elderly Hermit, who promises the party a blessing when they help him slay a protean.
voila! The exact sword the player wanted, tied into his character's past in every way.
2 players meet in a bar.
1st Player (Wizard):
[Out of Character] Sorry I couldn’t make the last 3 game sesions, work was hectic.
[In Character]‘Lo blade master, I haven’t seen you at the Pub in a 2 moons, where have you been?2nd Player (Fighter):
[Out of Character] No problem while you were gone we attacked an orc kingdom and I looted this awsome +2 Dwarf Bane Adamantine sword.
[In Character] Harken to my story for it is one of great adventure! Look here master of magic, for I have claimed Ridilkan! Made by orc craftsmen during the great war with the dwarves for their King Beldakarn. With this in his hand did he bring low the dwarven Sky Citidale of Grudach. It is a fell blade made of the strongest adamantine from the heart of the world!1st Player:
[Out of Character] Hey that’s cool. Before I left I told the DM I was going to Craft some items. And I crafted this +3 holy, cold iron, longsword. It cost me 25kG but I figure what tha heck.
[In Character] A mighty weapon it is. But behold what my magic has brought to the world! Yeamnih, made by my hands! And behold did I buy from the weapon shop 3 streets over a master work cold iron longsword, and imbue with magic forced into my will over 50 days! Bask in its glory!2nd Player:
[Out of Character]Son of a B****!
[In Character] Son of a B****!
Awesome post!
I personally would like to see PFS with no magic items whatsoever (a +1 longsword as an artifact which is immediately claimed, or fought over, by the nearest king perhaps), slower spellcasting progression and so on.
Simply removing the magic shop doesn't help imho as the one game I played like that resulted in the characters carting around a golf bag full of magic swords which they couldn't sell. "Oh, my +3 broke, where was that +2 keen one we found?" Switching to 3e and allowing players to sell stuff in return for buying signature weapons was much less of a problem.
Only handing out a few items, especially in a living game like PFS, will also cause arguments and friction. I think LG tried it for a while and then switched to a fairer distribution process.
One option might be to have magic items so imbued with power that they prevent the character from using any other magic item. "I have a +1 longsword so I'm not carrying that magic lute, my sword won't work until we get back to town and sell it." If a PC only has one magic item they'll pretty quickly get to appreciate it.
In PFS, just adding basic Mwk items to the chronicle but giving them some flavour would be cool. "I took this sword from a 1000 year old Living Monolith I slew in the lost temple of Cheops, after carving my way through a dozen giant scorpions and nearly going mad from thirst!" Items with histories don't need to be magical.
One option might be to have magic items so imbued with power that they prevent the character from using any other magic item. "I have a +1 longsword so I'm not carrying that magic lute, my sword won't work until we get back to town and sell it." If a PC only has one magic item they'll pretty quickly get to appreciate it.
I don't agree that they will appreciate it more just due to a rules change. Many will argue that it is nonsense, and I would agree. The only way magic items become majestic is if the necessity to have them is reduced. That way when you get one it is more of a reward, than a must have. You may have to get rid of DR's, and incorporeal creatures, or at least find a way to hurt them. The game is built on the foundation that players need to have them. So you really have to almost rewrite the game. Many have spoken of bonuses add to the player, but that will just switch the focus to artificial augmentation, and that is not much better than magic item dependency IMHO.
I don't agree that they will appreciate it more just due to a rules change. Many will argue that it is nonsense, and I would agree. The only way magic items become majestic is if the necessity to have them is reduced. That way when you get one it is more of a reward, than a must have. You may have to get rid of DR's, and incorporeal creatures, or at least find a way to hurt them. The game is built on the foundation that players need to have them. So you really have to almost rewrite the game. Many have spoken of bonuses add to the player, but that will just switch the focus to artificial augmentation, and that is not much better than magic item dependency IMHO.
One option might be to have magic items so imbued with power that they prevent the character from using any other magic item. "I have a +1 longsword so I'm not carrying that magic lute, my sword won't work until we get back to town and sell it." If a PC only has one magic item they'll pretty quickly get to appreciate it.
Do you consider characters to have feat dependancies or hit point dependancies? If you make the 'needed' bonuses part of character development, how is that different then save progression or anything else? I think if they remain as rewards (allowing personal enhancements to be earned or bouught) then it would still be a problem, but if you just say at level X pick one of Y bonuses, and levels X+n pick another, I dont see it being a dependancy any more then you are dependant on anything else that goes on the character sheet?
I find the best way to bring back majesty is to let magic items be chockablock with undocumented features and also sometimes be more than they seem.
One rule, of course, is that artifacts don't detect as magical, though throwing Legend Lore on one will generally send a loremaster into information overload.
Currently, I have my adventurers seeking the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords. They've done their research and they've realized that while it's an artifact, it has been witnessed multiple times so they are fairly certain what they're looking for is a masterwork dwarven war axe without any special bling or gilding, just a highly practical well wrought piece of smithcraft that a dwarven swith would recognize as the work of a master and worthy to be held by a king and used in battle, not some gaudy bit of parade regalia.
There are also gaudy bits of bling that have higher values as jewelry and historic curios than they do as magic items. So, you've got a Crown of Charisma +2. It's also the diamond tiara of Princess Gwynneth of Marelhoth, worn at her wedding, made by the famous gnomish jeweler Bringinhoffer, and later used to ransom her daughter back from the goblins. It's now sixty years later, and while Princess Gwynneth is now dead, her daughter is now the beloved Queen Mum to the current emperor, and the emperor would love to get that tiara back to give to his mom and would likely pay a hell of a lot more than one you could sell it for at the local Ye Olde Magicke Shoppe.
And the tiara may have picked up an undocumented feature along the way, related to its history, or maybe due to spells put on it by a witch who wore it for a time and consecrated it to her mysterious benefactor....
I am currently running a 4E Dark Sun campaign, where I must consider availability of magic items as a direct result of the campaign setting, but also on a larger note this also ties into, in my opinion, the majesty of magic items.
Overall, it boils down to the ability to create items by yourself (time and material), purchasing one (money), finding one (discretion of the DM), and the ability to identify magical properties (knowledge).
If you can control all these areas, you can limit the availability of magic items or allow magical items to be more mysterious, which lends to the overall majesty of items (appreciate what you have).
The one facet I despise the most, is how easy it is with current versions of D&D to identify magical properties, but I also tend to shy away from magic shops on every corner.
The biggest challenge is balancing all the above with player expectations.
Do you consider characters to have feat dependancies or hit point dependancies? If you make the 'needed' bonuses part of character development, how is that different then save progression or anything else? I think if they remain as rewards (allowing personal enhancements to be earned or bouught) then it would still be a problem, but if you just say at level X pick one of Y bonuses, and levels X+n pick another, I dont see it being a dependancy any more then you are dependant on anything else that goes on the character sheet?I don't agree that they will appreciate it more just due to a rules change. Many will argue that it is nonsense, and I would agree. The only way magic items become majestic is if the necessity to have them is reduced. That way when you get one it is more of a reward, than a must have. You may have to get rid of DR's, and incorporeal creatures, or at least find a way to hurt them. The game is built on the foundation that players need to have them. So you really have to almost rewrite the game. Many have spoken of bonuses add to the player, but that will just switch the focus to artificial augmentation, and that is not much better than magic item dependency IMHO.
One option might be to have magic items so imbued with power that they prevent the character from using any other magic item. "I have a +1 longsword so I'm not carrying that magic lute, my sword won't work until we get back to town and sell it." If a PC only has one magic item they'll pretty quickly get to appreciate it.
I guess the issue is the the suspension of beleif of a rule that puts the power inside of me does not work. If I know I can be enhanced to hit harder(just on example of many) I will try to get the enhancement. Now if the DM's were just saying the abilities were added just like normal progression, and I can't use magic to push it up any further then that might work.
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Rather than nix magic items, just enhance the "good" ones that you know are impactful, change crafting, and do away with "magic shops."
1. Crafting, unless roleplayed, makes magic item creation about as special as baking bread. Bring back older edition "quests" to get things to craft items, such as the feather of a phoenix willingly given, etc. You might consider changing all item crafting to one feat if you do this. Right now, item craft feats are to save $$$ and involve no real story.
2. Don't always abide by book description of items. That Staff of Fire might be made out of living flame, writhing in one's hands but not actually burning things. That Human-bane Dagger +2 might be crafted from the sharpened arm-bone of the infamous tyrant-king of blah-blah.
3. I use Legacy items as well. Since they bond with the person's life force, there's a little bit of awe attached to the history and discovering the rituals to unlock their powers.
4. Consider "set" items (3rd edition had the Magical Item Compendium, can easily convert or make your own). The symbiotic benefit provided by two items, etc., acts as a 3rd item without actually giving one. The MIC provided a fantastic (like legacy items) history for each, and there always seems to be a dark-side to possessing a set...
5. I don't use "magic shops." At times, it's a short side quest to find a buyer or seller, often times other adventurers who just raided a lich's tomb but can't use an item they've found. Just because there's a price in the Guide doesn't mean you can find it.
6. Finally, be aware of party needs and if your players are cool with "low" magic. I've had gamers in the past who grumbled off-table that their characters never seemed to have anything when I tried a lower magic, rely on your wits campaign.
I guess the issue is the the suspension of beleif of a rule that puts the power inside of me does not work. If I know I can be enhanced to hit harder(just on example of many) I will try to get the enhancement. Now if the DM's were just saying the abilities were added just like normal progression, and I can't use magic to push it up any further then that might work.
That is more or less what I am doing in my next campaign. Big six magic items are all but nonexistant, (I am axing +x weapons and armor entirely) and adopting the heroic distinctions system in which players choose training bonuses as they level that add to AC, Attack/damage, stats, saves etc. These training bonuses dont stack with enhancement bonuses (to maintain the power level of spells like magic weapon or the 2nd level stat boosting spells). They are chosen much like feats are and they have pre-requisites and there are trees for each kind of bonus.
With this I hope to A maintain the power level close to that of normal progression, and instead of providing a host of +1 weapons and armor, provide exclusively flavorful items and do so sparingly. That way the players dont NEED them, and the items themselves can mean something because they wont be turned in for the +2 sword they'll inevitably find on their next adventure. When a player finds a holy sword it is an item of note in history and in the game.
This is a re-post from a similar discussion.
I made up a heroic, lower-magic, world for D&D once upon a time, and specifically wanted to avoid having a large number of magic items floating around. I think it's much more interesting for characters to have a few very special items than a laundry list. Excalibur wouldn't be so fascinating if King Arthur had also been carrying around four magic knives, three magic clothes, two magic rings, and a blasted magic partridge in a blasted magic pear tree!
I gave out monetary rewards in two categories.
- loot that the characters physically acquire made up about 10-50% of each haul.
- I tracked the monetary value characters could be expected to have in the RAW, divided it among the characters, and gave it to them as a fund when they leveled up. That fund was off-screen, like feat selections, hit point gains, etc.
"Advancement Money" could be used to shop for magic items from the DMG, but the enhancements had to be explained in character. The standard way for this to happen was the enhancement of an existing magic item. I also reversed a couple magic item rules from the RAW:
- Instead of costing more to add multiple effects to a single item, I gave a 20% discount if added to one iconic item of the player's choosing, and a 10% discount if added to any other item.
- "No Slot" and "Different Slot" penalties were eliminated.
- For +20% cost, a character could have the ability naturally, without the need for an item.
The overall effects of these changes were just what I had hoped for! The characters kept up with expected threats, but only had 1-3 magical items each.
- The Barbarian had a magic greatsword, and belt of trophies taken from his fallen enemies. We later expanded his belt to cover more and more of his body in bits and pieces of dead monster, but it was just one "item" by the rules, and very important to his character! He would refuse to add bits of any enemy he didn't deem worthy, and relish the opportunity to add parts from powerful enemies, "I will defeat you in body and in spirit, and add your power to my own!"
- The Bard had a magic lute that was always getting wand effects added to it. Play the right chord, and anything might happen!
- The Sorcerer added all of his powers to his staff, and guarded it jealously.
- The Ranger was of the small-mounted-archer type and "bought" enhancements for his Animal Companion/mount as well as a magic bow.
Thank you all for the great post and advice. I think for my campaigns, I will use a mix of scaling items, for medium level magic, then for major items bring in Minor Artifacts. Reason being, because sooner or later, players do want to find something better than what they have had. To craft medium to higher level items, I will continue to make the materials needed to be quest items, and hopefully not make crafting so ineffective that players wont try it.
By no means do I want to play a low magic campaign. I am not saying that those can't be fun also, but I for one love finding a good and interesting magic item that is a little different, be it because of what I had to go through to get it, its back story, or just what it does differently than a normal item of the sort.
There will always a need for level dependent items it seems, and nothing besides changing the CR system is going to fix that. I guess an item that stays viable for a while, and can keep its user entertained is the best I can hope for.
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My questions to the boards are:
1. Does anyone else see this in a similar light?
2. If so, what are you doing to bring back the Majesty of a +1 Wounding Broad Sword?
First off - absolutely this has been a bone of contention for me for quite some time. Unfortunately I have a wide range of player personalities in my midst - some who want to power game and have the most powerful min/max build they can have; and others who love to find any magic item and is wonderfully suprised and treasures them all.
To do away with all the build by level may make some happy, and others resentful. It's a tricky situation.
At least a few of them actually create entirely new level-dependent things, like every 5th level you get a +1 to AC or something to that tune (arbitrary number, not exact), so that the numbers come out similar to having magic items without the PCs ACTUALLY having so many magic items.
I have come up with similar ideas.
Every even level a character gains a singe stat increase. Over 20 levels, that +10 to abilities.
Starting at 3rd level you get a +1 to AC - increasing every 3 levels (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 18th) and a +1 to a single saving throw type - increasing every odd level (players choice).
Starting at 4th level you get a +1 to attack/damage - increasing every 4 levels (4,8,12,16,20)
This replaces ring of protection, Cloak of resistance, amulet of natural armor, +X weapons, and Armor.
Give craft skill the ability to increase Armor and Shields to increase their effectiveness by +1 (like masterwork weapons).
Finally, remove crafting magic items system.
As the players leveled (I think they were level 3 or so when they got the items), the items "leveled" with them.
The hard part was coming up with new abilities as they leveled up.
If you have access to Fantansy Flight Game's Midnight campaign setting - take a look at the Hero Paths used during character creation.
Each Hero Path provided some sort of bonus at each level - each path having a "theme" that was tied to the character's fate - like a destiny written in the stars that guided a hero's walk of life.
By labeling a character and his/er item with one of the paths, perhaps they can provide some inspiration for theme-appropriate benefits.
Of course, PC NEED somekind of place to spend their money.
There's the key to success. The 3.x theme of a treasure by level progression is keyed directly to the notion that you need to buy/have x number of magical items to be effective vs the mathematically equated CR and EL appropriate for their level.
IF you're removing alot of the static magic items (as prescribed above), the amount of wealth needed is far less by comparison. Thus as DM you would give out far LESS monetary treasure. If this is the case, they won't have the need to have a place to spend their gold. In earlier editions, you never found as much gold as you do now. Look at some of the treasure Type each creature had in the old Monster Manuals and compare to the treasure list in the back of the book.
In the early games I played, I never had a copy of the DMG (and wasn't allowed to look at the DM's copy) for several years. I tend to think that this preserved my own sense of wonder and "majesty" at the magic items I encountered, since I really didn't know what they were or how they lined up on a shopping list of wondrous items. Not knowing may have been a contributing factor for me.
My wife never wanted to look in the DMG - never has - 15 years after she started gaming with us; to this day she is still awed by every magic item they find. I love that about her. I wish more players were like that.
I remember in earlier days, it was the unwritten rule / gentleman's handshake among gamers that if you weren't a DM, don't read the DMG or MM. There were players who did and memorized everything - one particular in my games. He was never fun to game with cuz he spoiled so many encounters.
Of course with modern day media capabilities online, cheap (pirated) PDFs, wikis, and messageboards - all the info is out there and avaialable to anyone. So there are no more secrets anymore.
Now if the DM's were just saying the abilities were added just like normal progression, and I can't use magic to push it up any further then that might work.
That's the idea of it - at least as it pertains to my suggestions.
The system is designed mathematically to expect that PCs need most if not all of those items to be as effective as needed at X level to be able to defeat Y foe at Z CR. Well, if those items that give static bonus are so inherent to the system that they are assumed to be a part of one's gear at a given level, then IMO that's a flaw in the system; simply remove them via providing those bonuses as part of a character's natural advanced progression. Allowing for magic items to be more unique, flavorful, and diverse.
I don't miss most of 2nd edition. I did enjoy 1st edition FWIW. But the one thing I do miss about the earlier editions is the magic item "magnificence" of them.
I never remember a player selling any magic item in any game played prior to 3rd edition. While I love 3rd edition for the most part, magic item creation/shops/selling is something that I struggle with accepting.
Robert
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I think the Alexandrian scores it right.
If Bob the mage makes a +3 Adamantine throwing, returning mace that grants its weilder Bull's Strength and Bear's Endurance while held, that's ho hum.
If the party finds The Mace of Thunderstrike crafted by dwarved at Odin's order, in gratitude to a mortal who helped his son defend Asgard and Midgard without concern for his own life, it's going to be more remembered, and in its own way valuable. (and likely to be thought of as a 'relic')
Edit: I think I recalled somewhere that the Mace of St. Cuthbert can be made using the magic item rules, but what makes it an artifact/relic is that it's The Mace of St. Cuthbert not generic magic mace #238
To echo Wraithstrike's comment above, a clever DM can actually turn loot X into the player's 'dream item'
Let's say that a player has on his Christmas list an intelligent +3 axiomatic shocking bastard sword. Over the course of his adventures he encounters...
When the character reaches the level appropriate/cost for getting his sword: The smith presents the ore to the construct, who is able to withstand the magical fire needed to smith adamantine. The hilt is wrapped in the preserved hide of the dragon. With the hermit's final breath, he blesses the player and promises to impart his wisdom, his soul leaving an 'echo' in the blade.
- A vein of ore who an NPC miner tells him can be refined into adamantine.
- An encounter with a band of constructs ends when one of the constructs is 'awakened' by a fragment of divine power of Brigit.
- A wyrmling blue dragon, who the party kills and sells the body to an... .
- Elderly Hermit, who promises the party a blessing when they help him slay a protean.
voila! The exact sword the player wanted, tied into his character's past in every way.
I like what you're done here. Great ideas!
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You're doing it wrong. Magic items aren't special in D&D, and they never will be. Give it up.What're you, five?
To OP: I play the current "default" version of the game, which requires a magic-heavy loadout for PCs to scale with the CR system. I do indeed empathize somewhat with your position, but can't say I know how to run a game in that style.
I could not disagree more with your above statements. First of all.. the comment about the person being five.. makes me want to ask the same of you. Either way though. I disagree that the "default" is a magic item heavy loadout as you say it is. The player and GM should choose to play that way, not the book choosing for them. Each and every group has a different dynamic then another one. Each has their own way of playing despite the rules in the Pathfinder book.
Some people choose to play magic item heavy other choose to go the route where it is considered a privilege to get one throughout almost the entire game. This is the way THEY choose to play. I am glad that you do refer to it as a style though. That is the ONLY thing I agree with on the above quote.