Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?
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Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?
My last witch was a hybrid control/leader character.
Her spells were significantly better suited to non-combat encounters, especially since bestow curse is a range: touch spell, and many of her distance spells are will negate.
Currently level 3 hexes : Evil Eye, Slumber, Healing. Role: Keeping a band of 4 year olds alive through second darkness - its not easy but delivering healing hey through my familiar saved them quite often already.
I usually prefer not to cast spells in combat, buffing an healing seem more effective at the moment, especially since I have a lot of things to do in combat with my hexes.
Currently Level 3. Took extra Hex twice (human). My hexes are: Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle and Heal. My character uses most of his spells on healing- being the team's healer, and spends combat jinxing the foes. It works pretty well, he can't really defeat foes alone, but he makes the other characters jobs much easier. The witch, in my opinion, is the number one choice for a debuffing character.
Grippli witch, 7 and8th level (back to back pseudo one shots), probably best defined as a controller, lots of tentacles, mists, and such. Oh, and lightning bolts :) Was backgrounded as a traveling potion seller, so had cauldron, flight, and some other non-attack hexes, about half healing/buff spell,s half control/ Attack. Dimension Door was key in a couple encounters, as was Black tentacles. I felt pretty well prepared in any situation, but I also had a satchel full of potions at all times, which tends to help.
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In another group not my main group. One I get to play in sometimes but not always due to RL. Anyways the witch in that group seems to be able to fill in, in a variety of ways on whats needed. From battle field control, to debuffer, to buffer and backup healer. So far it is looking like one of the biggest strengths of the class is flexibility. They might not be the best at anyone one area but they are pretty good at a lot of stuff.
Izrador, the Pale Shadow, is far too mysterious to be shoved in some small-minded pigeon holes. I deceive, I hex, I destroy, I slay, but I will also heal and protect.
I call myself a controller, for I have power over weaker minds.
I call myself a leader, for my insight into things mundane people do not wot of makes me fit to tell others what to do.
I am a striker, for I my superior intellect allows me to strike at enemies' weak spots.
I can be a defender if I want, for, given the right incentive, I will use my considerable and eldritch powers to defend others.
I am all of these, and many more things besides.
The only thing I am not is predictable.
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Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?
I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.
Hama is a 10th-level venerable human witch. She is a controller, leader, and master of curses and cursed items. She makes heavy use of silent, stilled, eschewed charms and dominates to control those around her.
She surrounds herself with powerful pawns and makes herself appear as an extremely charismatic, harmless, likable grandmotherly figure in order to better protect herself from harm. Despite her abysmal physical attributes, she is quite adept at taking care of herself--getting through the first nine levels without losing a single hit point and getting knocked out once at 10th level.
Despite being evil and selfish, she ended a war between three countries through diplomacy thereby bringing peace to half the continent. She then turned around and used her new political alliances to start an even bigger war against the other half of the continent, pitting such powerful creatures as hags and dragons dragons against one another (along with several national military forces).
Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.
Actually they are a table top RPG thing (for most TTRPG'S anyway) 4E just put a name to them.
My witch seems to be what ever the party needs ATM. I have my healing and buffing spells to keep the party alive, debuffs to make the enemy die faster and with my beast shape spells i have even been the tank once or twice. I have a high craft Alchemy and brew potion (from the cauldron ability)so that i can keep the group alive even when I'm not around.
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Spell-wise, I've gotten a lot of mileage out of cause fear.
I hate that cause fear, and I (almost) hate you for using it.
"I BIG MONSTAR! RAAR!"
"Hey, big monster. Can I ask you something?"
"ONE QUESTION BEFORE I ET YOU! RAAR!"
"Um... cause fear."
"I PISS MYSELF AND FLEE FOR A FEW ROUNDS WHILE EVERYONE PEPPER ME WITH ARROWS 'TIL I DEAD! RAAR!"
Can't wait 'til everything's too powerful to run away. :P
Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?
I am a DM, and my player's witch is all about the debuffs. It sucks really bad versus undead though since most of the debuffs are enchantement and necromancy based. The hexes get used more than the spells do.
I'm writing up a Witch Currently, and all i can say is I see a LOT of Debuffing/Control in my future with Him.
current Hexes (level 6, taking over for someone who dropped the group, couldn't make the day): Evil Eye, Cackle, Slumber, Misfortune, Fortune, Charm, and Flight.
got me a lesser Rod of Reach, and plan my main attack to be a stockpile of Sepia Snake Sigils with Beguiling Gift (range touch attack, they have to use their standard to use whatever i give them, and BAM Sepia'd, might also use Explosive Runes (can't remember if witches get those too))
but yeah, I'm excited to try it, First time i've done one, and he's a fun concept.
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Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?
The witch can do all of these. The best new class since bard.
She surrounds herself with powerful pawns and makes herself appear as an extremely charismatic, harmless, likable grandmotherly figure in order to better protect herself from harm.
You see, personally, any 'charismatic, harmless, grandmotherly figures' I encounter are pretty much attacked on sight.
They're prime candidates for 'Polymporphed Dragon/Disguised Hag/Master Mind of the Local Assassins Guild'..
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REMEMBER: If they seem to good to be true....
..hey, if they really are good, they'll forgive you.
He is the Jack of all trades, and the incognito leader of the party. Everybody seems to come to him when they dont know what to do. He backs up the Wizard, the Cleric, and the Bard, in a way ;) and also the Harrower and the Seer :) And the Sorceror :) and he can do these things or be thier equals or betters depending on how I play him. I just like to have him backing the gang, being the go to guy and not the up front man :) I like Charm, Fly, Cauldron and Heal, and skills like Brew, Cook, Herbalism, Midwife, Heal, Alchemy, and Scribe. Depending on DMing or Characterization. As well as sing, dance and oratory :)
Our campaign is new so the witch is still low level. He took feat Extra Hex so started with two hexes, Evil Eye and Slumber, plans on adding another one next level too. Based on his game plan, it looks like he's going to be a debuffer and back-up healer. The player has expressed to me that his main concern is the lack of defensive spells. I checked the spell list and was really surprised... unless you have one of the more defensive patrons, the only defensive spell they get till level 7 is Mage Armor. No armor proficiency, only d6 hit points and the only defense he has is not being targeted. Hope he makes it...
She surrounds herself with powerful pawns and makes herself appear as an extremely charismatic, harmless, likable grandmotherly figure in order to better protect herself from harm.You see, personally, any 'charismatic, harmless, grandmotherly figures' I encounter are pretty much attacked on sight.
They're prime candidates for 'Polymporphed Dragon/Disguised Hag/Master Mind of the Local Assassins Guild'..
::
REMEMBER: If they seem to good to be true....
..hey, if they really are good, they'll forgive you.
I am starting to thing you have a strong fixation with fire.
Our campaign is new so the witch is still low level. He took feat Extra Hex so started with two hexes, Evil Eye and Slumber, plans on adding another one next level too. Based on his game plan, it looks like he's going to be a debuffer and back-up healer. The player has expressed to me that his main concern is the lack of defensive spells. I checked the spell list and was really surprised... unless you have one of the more defensive patrons, the only defensive spell they get till level 7 is Mage Armor. No armor proficiency, only d6 hit points and the only defense he has is not being targeted. Hope he makes it...
Their defense sucks, but while you are alive Evil Eye and Cackle are a great combo.
Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.
I'll second this, especially since because I have never wanted to play a controller, leader, striker or defender. They sound like chess pieces, not characters for a roleplaying game, and even using the terminology makes the players focus on what to do in a miniatures battle rather than their role in a story.
Which does not mean that I'm opposed to shorthand, but I see the witch as fitting many roles, including but not limited to: ingenue, mystic, survivor, vagabond, village elder. Mentioning those actually gets people thinking about roleplaying.
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Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.
This, this, a thousand times this!
Additionally, I hate how "tank" has come to mean someone who can merely take damage. Do you see the big guns on tanks? Those are meant to deliver express packages of hurt. "Tanks" aren't tanks if they can't dish it out, they're just APCs.
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AKA 8one6
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'll second this, especially since because I have never wanted to play a controller, leader, striker or defender. They sound like chess pieces, not characters for a roleplaying game, and even using the terminology makes the players focus on what to do in a miniatures battle rather than their role in a story.
Which does not mean that I'm opposed to shorthand, but I see the witch as fitting many roles, including but not limited to: ingenue, mystic, survivor, vagabond, village elder. Mentioning those actually gets people thinking about roleplaying.
See, it seemed to me the OP was specifically asking about how people play the Witch in combat. 'Vagabond' is a fantastic piece of shorthand to describe how you roleplay your character, but if we're talking about combat, it really doesn't answer many questions.
So while I agree with you in that defining a character by their combat role can lead to flat characters and poor roleplaying (and you don't need 4e to do it either, "I'm a TWF Rogue"), I don't see the harm in describing a character's combat role using shorthand terms like 'leader' or 'striker'.
None of these people fall into categories you named before. Not even remotely, this is a group game and even in combat its not about falling into roles its about being able to work together as a team, listing roles not only restrains role playing but also constrains what they can do in combat. Those limitations are unnecessary.
Continued de-railing...:
Largely, I agree with you, but I don't think that PnP games are by their nature incompatible with the concept of combat roles. In fact, one could argue that to work effectively as a team, each must KNOW their "role" in combat.While it is entirely possible to have your party wizard be the tank or your rogue do all of your heavy magic and then swap places next combat, most people slip into a general method of operations that best suits their specific build. If you build a TWF Rogue, then you intend to maximize the use of the feats and skills that go into that. Hence the titles "striker" or "controller" or what have you.
Great thread. I really like witches. :D
This thread is laden with ideology.
I suggest that those who share the OP's ideology should give him the answer to his question, and those who want to challenge that ideology... well, they'll just have to keep it to themselves, like I am now, because the OP hasn't done anything challenge-worthy. Take the high road, folks.
Please share the primary role your level 1-10 witch is playing in your group: controller (battlfield control, area attacks), leader (buff/debuff/heal), striker (high damage dealer), defender (melee). Additionally, do you feel the witch's spell list (excluding hexes) makes a more significant contribution during or out of combat?I have to say this now. Because if I don't, I'll hate myself for not saying it. These ROLES you refer to are a 4E thing. This is Pathfinder. Not 4E. Thank you.This, this, a thousand times this!
** spoiler omitted **
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AKA 8one6
The roles were always there. 3.5 is a classed based system where every class is normally regulated to a job(role). They were no exactly the same as 4E's roles, but any group without a certain job being done, often found things harder. The party "face" is a role, as an example. Now if you play hack and slash that role might not mean much, but in many games it does.
Kallisti!
I noticed this is all that you post under this name. Does it have an actual meaning?
Kallisti!I noticed this is all that you post under this name. Does it have an actual meaning?
All hail Discordia!
Aye, Kallisiti!
The Great Great Grandmamma of the humble troll post.
Oooooooh you git on out before I we start constraining your perceptions within a standardised system of interpretation!!one1!1!one11!eleven1!
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[Ignoring the various random derailments]
My current witch is a level 2-ish PFS Witch. Do to a severe lack of ... damage capability, the role assumed by my angry ulfen witch is that of brooding debuffer & slumber monkey. The most fun he had was when the enemy group of druids thought a triple Entangle area would mean a bit of difference to his plan of action.
On reflection of the vast number of PFS mods that feature encounters immune to mind-effects (swarms, undead, elementals, etc), I have been thinking of dropping the character and putting him into a home game where he has a better chance of not being neutered by a scenario.
Actually they are a table top RPG thing (for most TTRPG'S anyway) 4E just put a name to them.
Actually, they are a 4e thing.
There was a discussion on the message boards about roles back when 3x was the current game, but the idea wasn't baked into the game.
The 3.5 game assumed everyone did a certain job. That is no different than assigning roles.
Somebody does damage. Somebody heals. Somebody does skill stuff. Somebody handles handles various things through magic, normally the arcanist. Somebody is the party face and so one. In 3.5 you could make a character that could to more than one thing, but that does not mean the job/role did not exist. You could try to play a game without someone that can fill a certain position/role, but the game will be more difficult most of the time.4E classifies classes by roles, where as 3.5 had classes that could fill several roles. Changing the way things are done does not change the fact that they exist.
Again.
The OP's request made sense in its own context. Stop poking the beehive, guys. I actually share the view of some of the rabble-rousers in here, but it's really uncalled for.
If you can answer the OP do it, but don't drag an edition war into an otherwise constructive thread. I will consider flagging any further off-topic posts. Please, let's hear from the people who understand the OP's question and can answer it. (that goes for me too, I will speak henceforth with flags).
Give me the page number and quote in the core books, please.Right in the class descriptions. Some classes have healing and curative magics, while others do not. Some can enhance other party members, while other can't. Some can sneak around and do lots of skill stuff by having 6+ skill points per level, while others don't have a high skill point count or good skill access. Sounds like roles to me. Of course, in 3.5 and Pathfinder the roles aren't so tightly defined, but they are still there.But that's not roles.
Roles are where you take the classes and shoehorn them into tightly defined groups of what they contribute to the party. By contrast, 3X gave you options as to what you wanted to contribute to the party.
I see that is where the difference lies. I don't see roles that way. A role to me is something that has to be(or at the least should be) done/performed to keep the party alive. It does not mean the cleric will do X, but never do Y. You are thinking of 4E where a role is married to class. In 3E the roles are there, but they are free to spend time with different classes.
Again.
The OP's request made sense in its own context. Stop poking the beehive, guys. I actually share the view of some of the rabble-rousers in here, but it's really uncalled for.
If you can answer the OP do it, but don't drag an edition war into an otherwise constructive thread. I will consider flagging any further off-topic posts. Please, let's hear from the people who understand the OP's question and can answer it. (that goes for me too, I will speak henceforth with flags).
1. I will get back on topic.
2. Who said anything about hating 4e or 3e. Stop over reacting.
I do not think that is a table top rpg thing, My group never use such titles and would not appreciate anyone else doing it either.
One is a cleric who is not a healer, buffer or even a tank he is a large man with a big mace who uses what ever spells he feels are good for the situation.
Another is a wizard with a sword, bow, chain armor and max ranks in hide and move silently.
Yet another is a bard with a sword and shield with no ranks in hide or move silently.None of these people fall into categories you named before. Not even remotely, this is a group game and even in combat its not about falling into roles its about being able to work together as a team, listing roles not only restrains role playing but also constrains what they can do in combat. Those limitations are unnecessary.
What a load of bantha poo-doo. I've been in games (and had characters) with melee wizards (who wielded a great-axe), melee bards (dual wielding bard who loved going toe-to-toe with brutish creatures), and some more exotic fair. They still had roles. Roles are as ingrained into RPGs as character progression (leveling), and dates back to the simple Fighter/Mage/Thief/Cleric, and it will not be changed by elitism because it simply "is".
Now people might have different roles, and they might excel at filling different roles (usually not at once), or have certain hybrids. A wizard who buffs themselves and wades into melee combat may be fulfilling both a tank & buffer role at the same time (buffing himself and his allies with spells) but likely not as well as a dedicated version of either. A druid can function in almost any role (especially with her pet) but generally isn't the best at any role (except perhaps summoning, but has rivals in the conjurer and summoner), but generally cannot function at all the roles at once (you normally have to pick something to do each round, so if you have 2 rolls you fulfill in your group then you have to alternate as needed).
Unless every character is the same character, they will try to do what is needed, and some groups do well with over-specialization, but working as a team (the primary function of roles) will generally come into play. Even with a group of 4 full-casters (I once was in a group with 2 wizards, 1 sorcerer, 1 shugenja), everyone naturally finds a role to fulfill. One wizard was summoner/save-or-die, one wizard was warding/blasting, the shugenja healed/controlled/fooled, the sorcerer was melee (thanks to turning into a dragon, natural armor, breath weapon) and being able to do a little of everything.
Likewise, all clerics are healers and buffers. By ignoring a majority of your options does not mean that you are not capable of fulfilling that role, but that you are choosing not to (and hopefully choosing to fulfill a different role, rather than being useless at everything). I've played necromancer-based clerics who supported, buffed, and healed in his own ways (had a few party members die whom he brought back as intelligent undead instead of casting raise-dead even). The same cleric also managed to pull off a "death-knight" style sword & board tank. She was entirely party support without being your traditional "cleric", but she had her roles she filled in the group (and those roles sometimes changed, since sometimes she was tank, sometimes healer, sometimes support, sometimes damage dealer, etc).
Saying that it's "not so" does nothing to disprove the wealth of blatant evidence that roles exist, have existed, and will go on to exist, even in games without classes (what do you think a Street Samurai, Mage, and Decker in Shadowrun are?).
Again.
The OP's request made sense in its own context. Stop poking the beehive, guys. I actually share the view of some of the rabble-rousers in here, but it's really uncalled for.
If you can answer the OP do it, but don't drag an edition war into an otherwise constructive thread. I will consider flagging any further off-topic posts. Please, let's hear from the people who understand the OP's question and can answer it. (that goes for me too, I will speak henceforth with flags).
Considering roles have nothing to do with editions, and roles are an integral part of the discussion about which roles your witch usually fills, I think you should cool it with your threats, Mr. Lincoln. Nothing has been off-topic.
If you continue to threaten posters for participating in legitimate discussion of the topic, I will consider flagging your posts since they are both off topic and appear to be threatening. ^_^
How about those who want to take offense at labeling the witches do so here, and those who would rather rage against the idea of roles or labels for other classes start a new thread for it? The last 20 posts only mentioned witches 2 or 3 times, that's a pretty large deviation from the OP.
I was actually curious to see what others have managed to do with their witch characters, and this bigger fly-in-the-ointment seems to be pulling folks away from that topic. Just sayin'...