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But arguing over whether classes should be named after broad social divisions or castes is already a lost cause in d20. I thought that part was what Jeremy was commenting on-- in fact that still is how the post seems to read.
Kinda sorta. It's partly my "ninjas don't deserve a new character class" hobby horse, and partly an acknowledgment that: yes, social/occupational dividing lines in D&D went the way of the dodo long, long ago. Me arguing my personal preference really doesn't matter much ultimately, but gamers love arguing. =3
If it was my choice, clerics would be "priests," barbarians would be "berserkers," and druids would be "shamans," just to try and divorce some of the cultural chaff from them. I'd really like to remove the cultural connotations from monk and paladin too, but I've got my own griefs there.
Jeremy Puckett
But arguing over whether classes should be named after broad social divisions or castes is already a lost cause in d20. I thought that part was what Jeremy was commenting on-- in fact that still is how the post seems to read.Kinda sorta. It's partly my "ninjas don't deserve a new character class" hobby horse, and partly an acknowledgment that: yes, social/occupational dividing lines in D&D went the way of the dodo long, long ago. Me arguing my personal preference really doesn't matter much ultimately, but gamers love arguing. =3
If it was my choice, clerics would be "priests," barbarians would be "berserkers," and druids would be "shamans," just to try and divorce some of the cultural chaff from them. I'd really like to remove the cultural connotations from monk and paladin too, but I've got my own griefs there.
Jeremy Puckett
For the record I agree. I particularly don't like Druid. But these are minor quibbles to me; that ship has sailed.
Jeff
Threadjack: OMG, Commoner Archetypes! WANT!
I particularly wish for something for:
- A swineherd archetype (maybe with swine summon or animal companions)
- the good old chicken infestation, with swarm rules
- A guy with the big straw hat and the pitchfork (maybe with the weapon focus/spec line)
-A village fool with mind effecting immunities
And maybe rules for raging crowds. Maybe a raging crowd leader with cavalier-ish leader-ish rules.
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If they don't know what Pathfinder is, their knowledge of what a ninja is is wholly immaterial.I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.Wouldn't matter if they knew what Pathfinder was. Only if they knew what ninjas were.
So we can discount the oft-cited Wikipedia article, then. Cool, you just lost all support for ninjas who shapechange and/or control the elements.
Rogue win!
If they don't know what Pathfinder is, their knowledge of what a ninja is is wholly immaterial.I wonder how many people out of a hundred would know what Pathfinder is.Wouldn't matter if they knew what Pathfinder was. Only if they knew what ninjas were.So we can discount the oft-cited Wikipedia article, then. Cool, you just lost all support for ninjas who shapechange and/or control the elements.
Rogue win!
yeeeeeeah ... because thats how THAT works ... :^>
You know, those of you who want a ninja class with ki abilities for Pathfinder don't have to look far - Rite Publishing already made it: Kusa of the Jade Oath
No I am fine with a Ninja archetype or some neat new PRC's, but honestly that is all a Ninja is, a rogue in a new outfit.
Ninja Archetypes would be good. A ninja could just be a Rogue with Shadowdancer PrC.
Rogue with Shadowdancer PrC, seems to be the classic ninja yeah.
Or a ranger with taht PrC :P
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My ninja:
Ninja
Life is an endless adventure for those who live by their wits. Ever just one step ahead of danger, Ninjas bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor. Never knowing what to expect, they prepare for everything, becoming masters of a wide variety of skills, training themselves to be adept manipulators, agile acrobats, shadowy stalkers, or masters of any of dozens of other professions or talents. Thieves and gamblers, fast talkers and diplomats, bandits and bounty hunters, and explorers and investigators all might be considered Ninjas, as well as countless other professions that rely upon wits, prowess, or luck. Although many Ninjas favor cities and the innumerable opportunities of civilization, some embrace lives on the road, journeying far, meeting exotic people, and facing fantastic danger in pursuit of equally fantastic riches. In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called Ninjas.
Role: Ninjas excel at moving about unseen and catching foes unaware, and tend to avoid head-to-head combat. Their varied skills and abilities allow them to be highly versatile, with great variations in expertise existing between different Ninjas. Most, however, excel in overcoming hindrances of all types, from unlocking doors and disarming traps to outwitting magical hazards and conning dull-witted opponents.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d8.
Class Skills
The Ninja's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.
Table: Ninja Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Evasion, Ninja talent
3rd +2 +1 +3 +1 Sneak attack +2d6, trap sense +1
4th +3 +1 +4 +1 Ninja talent, uncanny dodge
5th +3 +1 +4 +1 Sneak attack +3d6
6th +4 +2 +5 +2 Ninja talent, trap sense +2
7th +5 +2 +5 +2 Sneak attack +4d6
8th +6/+1 +2 +6 +2 Improved uncanny dodge, Ninja talent
9th +6/+1 +3 +6 +3 Sneak attack +5d6, trap sense +3
10th +7/+2 +3 +7 +3 Advanced talents, Ninja talent
11th +8/+3 +3 +7 +3 Sneak attack +6d6
12th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Ninja talent, trap sense +4
13th +9/+4 +4 +8 +4 Sneak attack +7d6
14th +10/+5 +4 +9 +4 Ninja talent
15th +11/+6/+1 +5 +9 +5 Sneak attack +8d6, trap sense +5
16th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Ninja talent
17th +12/+7/+2 +5 +10 +5 Sneak attack +9d6
18th +13/+8/+3 +6 +11 +6 Ninja talent, trap sense +6
19th +14/+9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Sneak attack +10d6
20th +15/+10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Master strike, Ninja talent
Class Features
The following are class features of the Ninja.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.
Sneak Attack: If a Ninja can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The Ninja's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the Ninja flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two Ninja levels thereafter. Should the Ninja score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a Ninja can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The Ninja must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A Ninja cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
Trapfinding: A Ninja adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A Ninja can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a Ninja can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the Ninja is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Ninja does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Ninja Talents: As a Ninja gains experience, she learns a number of talents that aid her and confound her foes. Starting at 2nd level, a Ninja gains one Ninja talent. She gains an additional Ninja talent for every 2 levels of Ninja attained after 2nd level. A Ninja cannot select an individual talent more than once.
Talents marked with an asterisk add effects to a Ninja's sneak attack. Only one of these talents can be applied to an individual attack and the decision must be made before the attack roll is made.
Bleeding Attack* (Ex): A Ninja with this ability can cause living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round for each die of the Ninja's sneak attack (e.g., 4d6 equals 4 points of bleed). Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess.
Combat Trick: A Ninja that selects this talent gains a bonus combat feat (see Feats).
Fast Stealth (Ex): This ability allows a Ninja to move at full speed using the Stealth skill without penalty.
Finesse Ninja: A Ninja that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.
Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a Ninja to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a Ninja with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.
Major Magic (Sp): A Ninja with this talent gains the ability to cast a 1st-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list two times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the Ninja's level. The save DC for this spell is 11 + the Ninja's Intelligence modifier. The Ninja must have an Intelligence of at least 11 to select this talent. A Ninja must have the minor magic Ninja talent before choosing this talent.
Minor Magic (Sp): A Ninja with this talent gains the ability to cast a 0-level spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. This spell can be cast three times a day as a spell-like ability. The caster level for this ability is equal to the Ninja's level. The save DC for this spell is 10 + the Ninja's Intelligence modifier. The Ninja must have an Intelligence of at least 10 to select this talent.
Quick Disable (Ex): It takes a Ninja with this ability half the normal amount of time to disable a trap using the Disable Device skill (minimum 1 round).
Resiliency (Ex): Once per day, a Ninja with this ability can gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the Ninja's level. Activating this ability is an immediate action that can only be performed when she is brought to below 0 hit points. This ability can be used to prevent her from dying. These temporary hit points last for 1 minute. If the Ninja's hit points drop below 0 due to the loss of these temporary hit points, she falls unconscious and is dying as normal.
Ninja Crawl (Ex): While prone, a Ninja with this ability can move at half speed. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. A Ninja with this talent can take a 5-foot step while crawling.
Slow Reactions* (Ex): Opponents damaged by the Ninja's sneak attack can't make attacks of opportunity for 1 round.
Stand Up (Ex): A Ninja with this ability can stand up from a prone position as a free action. This still provokes attacks of opportunity for standing up while threatened by a foe.
Surprise Attack (Ex): During the surprise round, opponents are always considered flat-footed to a Ninja with this ability, even if they have already acted.
Trap Spotter (Ex): Whenever a Ninja with this talent comes within 10 feet of a trap, she receives an immediate Perception skill check to notice the trap. This check should be made in secret by the GM.
Weapon Training: A Ninja that selects this talent gains Weapon Focus as a bonus feat.
Trap Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a Ninja gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the Ninja reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.
Trap sense bonuses gained from multiple classes stack.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Ninja can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught flat-footed, nor does she lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A Ninja with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action (see Combat) against her.
If a Ninja already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Ninja of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another Ninja the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more Ninja levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum Ninja level required to flank the character.
Advanced Talents: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a Ninja can choose one of the following advanced talents in place of a Ninja talent.
Crippling Strike* (Ex): A Ninja with this ability can sneak attack opponents with such precision that her blows weaken and hamper them. An opponent damaged by one of her sneak attacks also takes 2 points of Strength damage.
Defensive Roll (Ex): With this advanced talent, the Ninja can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the Ninja can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the Ninja must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can't use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the Ninja's evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll.
Dispelling Attack* (Su): Opponents that are dealt sneak attack damage by a Ninja with this ability are affected by a targeted dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the Ninja's level. A Ninja must have the major magic Ninja talent before choosing dispelling attack.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This works like evasion, except that while the Ninja still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Ninja does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the Ninja can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a Ninja with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
Skill Mastery: The Ninja becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.
Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A Ninja may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.
Slippery Mind (Ex): This ability represents the Ninja's ability to wriggle free from magical effects that would otherwise control or compel her. If a Ninja with slippery mind is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her saving throw, she can attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed on her saving throw.
Feat: A Ninja may gain any feat that she qualifies for in place of a Ninja talent.
Master Strike (Ex): Upon reaching 20th level, a Ninja becomes incredibly deadly when dealing sneak attack damage. Each time the Ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can choose one of the following three effects: the target can be put to sleep for 1d4 hours, paralyzed for 2d6 rounds, or slain. Regardless of the effect chosen, the target receives a Fortitude save to negate the additional effect. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Ninja's level + the Ninja's Intelligence modifier. Once a creature has been the target of a master strike, regardless of whether or not the save is made, that creature is immune to that Ninja's master strike for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to this ability.
I think that is the closet one we have seen yet to a ninja, good job there
Looks good.
Could've been an archetype almost. ;)
At this point I think we need a custom ninja class for every single player of pathfinder.
+1
I think ninjas should get +20 to initiative when replying to a post in a thread or forum online.
I think ninjas should get +20 to initiative when replying to a post in a thread or forum online.
Profession: Telephone repairman needs to be a class skill.
I think there should be a Ninja archetype, in the Rogue class. It could have an ability called... "Black Egg" It causes the target to be blinded unless it passes a reflex check.... The Black Egg was a weapon used by ninja, and.. it was some sort of an egg shell with broken glass and powder in it. It totally messed up the enemies eyes, as each time they blinked, the glass cut their eyes up more.
That would be an item, not an ability. We already have smoke sticks and the like, so something like that would make a neat new item.
That would be an item, not an ability. We already have smoke sticks and the like, so something like that would make a neat new item.
Fair enough. Then... it would be a skill to create them? Because no one else should be able to use them.
why not? they are splash weapons. They are nothing odd and nothing that screams ninja only. Just because you use something does not mean you know how to make it.
why not? they are splash weapons. They are nothing odd and nothing that screams ninja only. Just because you use something does not mean you know how to make it.
They are something that screams ninja only, though. Ninjas made them. They were masters of improvisation. You'd be surprised to find that a lot of their weapons were originally farming tools..
I guarantee you, no one else uses them. :)
eh used something called a death egg maybe. Throwing items in your foes eyes is not a ninja only trick. A few cultures had such devices at one time or another.
So no, it does not scream ninja. Its an item like a tanglefoot bag, alks fire and smoke sticks. I guess we should really limit alk fire to the new greek class as well :)
eh used something called a death egg maybe. Throwing items in your foes eyes is not a ninja only trick. A few cultures had such devices at one time or another.
So no, it does not scream ninja. Its an item like a tanglefoot bag, alks fire and smoke sticks. I guess we should really limit alk fire to the new greek class as well :)
Well, without some variety, and... without originality.. Why would the Ninja even be given an archetype? I'm trying to be nice, and give ideas to the many that think they deserve a class spot.
I don't think they deserve it at all, because as mentioned before, a Ninja is just a Rogue with a different outfit. And let's face it.
People want to play a Ninja to feel like a badass. There's no reason for anyone to play a Rogue after the Ninja has been created. Who wants to be a skillmonkey? No one. I firmly believe that it would be extra generous of Paizo to even give people a Ninja Archetype... Because there's just no reason for it.
oh I agree he is just a rogue calling his weapons new names with pj's on. There is something ya could swap for trapfinding maybe, and some new talents but the death egg is just gear.
I have to admit, I did hate to deal with characters from Shou Lung that were "Samurai" and "ninja" when they were really Knights and mystically trained assassins. Plus people feel like if a class is named samurai, they have to have a katana as their main weapon, which again didn't seem quite right for Shou Lung.
More of the fault of the players than the setting. There are "ninja" classed characters in Shou Lung, but yes, under a different name and culture, as briefly outline in the Kara-Tur supplements. In the movie Iron Monkey, the characters dressed and emulated ninja qualities, but just weren't called ninja. But I am sure the majority of the audience were ignorant enough to say "Oh, this movie has ninjas" despite it being set in China. LOL
I have to admit, I did hate to deal with characters from Shou Lung that were "Samurai" and "ninja" when they were really Knights and mystically trained assassins. Plus people feel like if a class is named samurai, they have to have a katana as their main weapon, which again didn't seem quite right for Shou Lung.Exactly! Unless a base class is intended to apply to a fairly narrow geographical region like Ninja and Samurai did, there is no reason to use those names.
In fact, in the "naming of the Magus thread", James and Erik expressed exactly that reservation when discounting several of the regional/national warrior nametypes. Why would this be any different?
My stance is solidifying. I call for new classes — there is a need — but they need broader names. Ninja and samurai both hail from such a tiny sliver of time and geography when compared to the rest of east Asia.
I'd have to disagree because the core classes do not emulate this at all. The Monk and the Paladin are the worst of the lot. The Monk is based off a fantasy-themed, supernatural version of the Shaolin monks. Yet it's scattered in a myriad of fantasy settings in D&D and Pathfinder from a Viking setting, to an Egyptian setting, or a Medieval Euro-setting, but still titled "Monk".
The same with Paladin. Paladins don't fit in with an Egyptian-like setting or even a Viking or Indian-flavored setting, but they still use them in such settings and are still called "Paladins". Though, of course, the DM is the one that probably enforces a different name.
The same would go for Samurai and Ninja. Changing the names to anything else takes away the attraction and the image. If a PC makes a Ninja but is in a Chinese-like setting, then it's up to the DM to remind them they're not called Ninja, but something else. No different than a DM telling a player you're not called a "Monk" in a Native American-like setting, or a "Paladin" when playing in an Egyptian-like setting.
And, not that it isn't useful, but I wish folks would stop trying to figure out how to incorporate historical elements into a class to make it a worthy class.
None of the core classes were built purely from historical records. Monks didn't move super-fast, they didn't jump exceedingly far, they didn't take down 100 men with their bare hands alone, they didn't break through stone doors with just their fist. But we have here a fantasy Monk that exaggerates and grants supernatural power to what the Monks were trained to do. Paladins weren't blessed, holy knights with divine powers to smite down evil. Rangers are from the US Military, and don't run around wielding two-weapons, befriending animals, attuning themselves to nature, and casting limited forms of magic harnessed from nature itself. But a fantasy version does.
Want to know where I first saw mention of a Paladin being a holy knight with minimal holy powers? Final Fantasy IV. The Dark Knight turned Paladin, Cecil. A true, fantasy Paladin. Copied from D&D, no doubt, and interestingly enough it was very identical to it. I am sure Japan modeled many of Final Fantasy's jobs from D&D classes. They even have a coeurl and an illithid monster in a few of the Final Fantasy games. Along with using Bahamut and Tiamat constantly.
Therefore, it only makes sense to just emulate how the Japanese have created fantasy versions of the Ninja and Samurai. They're the experts on it, clearly.
When I think of fantasy Ninja, I think of everything a Rogue/Monk hybrid can do but offered much more optional benefits that are strictly "Ninja" only and neither the Rogue or Monk offers even with multiclassing (like shadow stepping, death attack, speed climbing, invisibility, poisoning techniques, etc.) and some form of mystical power (maybe through feats or a limited, 4-level spellcasting chart).
When I think of a fantasy Samurai, I don't see a Fighter or a Paladin's abilities associated with it. And very little of a Cavalier's. I think along the lines of the supernatural Samurai akin to the Paladin, but their energy is harnessed through their ki. They can do sword techniques (make a melee attack as a ranged attack, for example), or buff themselves with ki (the ki strength from the 1e Samurai class), or harness even a little elemental power, probably. I think more along the lines of a Fighter/Paladin/Cavalier/Monk when I think of Samurai. Mounted Combat for free, a variety of ki powers devoted to martial skill, a variety of martial arts techniques, with blades or another weapon-type, even unarmed. Bonus feats, good Fortitude and Will, d10 HD, high BAB, etc. Maybe a "combat style" option like the Ranger, with a wide variety of free feat chains.
Perfect example of a fantasy Samurai, please tell me you folks are aware of the Samurai job in both Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XI? That's my best comparison.
You can get to the same goal with Ninja and Samurai by taking many different paths to do it. Now, you can use historical aspects to help with the creativity, but I do not believe in any way it should even emulate their historical counterparts in any way at all.
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To be honest, my biggest gripe with the "Ninja is a Rogue" meme is, in fact, sneak attack.
No media/fantasy ninja in history has sneak attack. I'm not even kidding.
Sneak Attack, mechanically, would work wonders for the typical 'horde of ninja' that is the hallmark of any good "asian fighter" action scene. Instead, they tend to flail around each other, striking very very fast but not hitting as often or as hard as more traditional fighters.
Instead, what always happens is, if that first attack, the one where the target is sleeping, lands, the target's just plain dead. But that attack tends to have a fairly poor chance of actually landing.
To me, that doesn't sound like Sneak Attack at all. It sounds like the Assassin's Death Attack. Coupled with Flurry of Blows and an alternate weapon list, and the outright loss of a few abilities (because Death Attack is potent enough to warrant it) and you've got something much closer to a Monk archetype than a Rogue one.
Agree. Here is my ninja concept, still in progress but clearly not a rogue.
Full BaB, d10
Good Reflex Save
4 Skill Points per level
Class Skills: The Ninja’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Intimidate (Cha), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with the blowgun, club, dagger, dart, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shortspear, short sword, short bow, shuriken, siangham, sling, and spear.
1st 2nd 3rd 4th
1st AC Bonus, Poison use - - - -
2nd Evasion, Ninja Weapon Focus - - - -
3rd Fast movement +10, Ninja Poison Skill - - - -
4th High jump, Swift Poisoning 0 - - -
5th Hidden Weapons, Ninja Weapon Specialization 1 - - -
6th Fast movement +20, Ninja Poison Skill 1 - - -
7th Enhanced Mobility 1 0 - -
8th Uncanny Dodge 1 1 - -
9th Fast Movement +30, Ninja Poison Skill 2 1 - -
10th Improved evasion, Twin 2 1 0 -
11th Ninja Greater Weapon Focus 2 1 1 -
12th Fast Movement +40, Ninja Poison Skill 2 2 1 -
13th Improved uncanny dodge 3 2 1 -
14th A Thousand Faces 3 2 1 1
15th Fast Movement +50, Ninja Poison Skill 3 2 2 1
16th Ninja Greater Weapon Specialization 3 3 2 1
17th Hide in Plain Sight 4 3 2 1
18th Fast Movement +60, Ninja Poison Skill 4 3 2 2
19th Divide 4 3 3 2
20th Death Poison 4 4 3 3
AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored, and unencumbered, the Ninja adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when the Ninja is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
Poison Use: Ninjas are trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison themselves when applying poison to a blade.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level or higher, a Ninja can avoid damage from many area-effect attacks. If a Ninja makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a Ninja is wearing no armor. A helpless Ninja does not gain the benefit of evasion.
Fast Movement (Ex): At 3rd level, a Ninja gains an enhancement bonus to his land speed, as shown on Table 3–10. A Ninja in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.
Ninja Poison (Ex): Ninja’s are able to make different poisons that cause different effects by infusing otherwise innocuous liquids with some of their arcane energy. A Ninja may a number of vials of poison equal to 3 + her Intellegence modifier if they take one hour to infuse vials of liquid while studying spells. This infusion lasts for 24 hours, at which time the liquid reverts back to it’s normal form. Only one type of poison can be added to any specific liquid, and the poisons made are subject to all of the standard poison rules.
Ninja Weapon Focus/Specialization (Su): At 2nd level a ninja selects one specific ninja weapon to specialize in. The Ninja must choose one of the following weapons: Shuriken, Blowgun, Nunchaku, Sai, or Dagger. At 2nd, 5th, 11th, and 16th level the ninja will gain additional skill with this specific weapon if he is also able to meet the ability score pre-requisites associated with the feat.
Ninja Poison Training (Su):
At 3rd level and every 3 levels after a Ninja can learn a new poison skill.
Acid Poison*: This poison inflicts acid damage. Creatures that ingest or take a direct hit from a weapon coated with this poison take an additional 1d6 points of acid damage 1 round later.
Concentrate poison: The Ninja can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the Ninja has one dose of poison. The poison’s frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined. This skill extends to both regular and Ninja poisons.
Bleeding Poison* (Ex): A Ninja can infuse a poison that can be put on a weapon causing living opponents to bleed by hitting them with a sneak attack. This attack causes the target to take 1 additional point of damage each round. Bleeding creatures take that amount of damage every round at the start of each of their turns. The bleeding can be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any effect that heals hit point damage. Bleeding damage from this ability does not stack with itself. Bleeding damage bypasses any damage reduction the creature might possess. This skill can be taken multiple times, with the amount of bleed damage stacking within a single vial of poison.
Concentrate poison: The Ninja can combine two doses of the same poison to increase their effects. This requires two doses of the poison and 1 minute of concentration. When completed, the Ninja has one dose of poison. The poison’s frequency is extended by 50% and the save DC increases by +2. This poison must be used within 1 hour of its creation or it is ruined. This skill extends to both regular and Ninja poisons. If a Ninja poison is used, the new poison counts as two vials of poison.
Crippling Poison* (Ex): This poison weakens and hamper opponents. A creature takes 2
points of Strength damage unless they make a fortitude save equal to DC 10 + 1/2 the Ninja level + the Ninja’s Intelligence modifier. This skill can be taken multiple times, with it’s effect stacking. A ninja must by at least 10th level to learn this skill.
Dispelling Poison* (Su): This poison acts as a dispel magic, targeting the lowest-level spell effect active on the target. The caster level for this ability is equal to the Ninja’s effective caster level. A ninja must be at least 8th level to learn this skill.
Fire Poison*: When the Ninja creates a poison, he can choose to have it inflict 1d6 fire damage. This can be taken multiple times, with the amount of fire damage stacking within a single vial of poison.
Frost Poison*: When the Ninja creates a poison, he can choose to have it inflict 1d6 cold damage. This can be taken multiple times, with the amount of frost damage stacking within a single vial of poison.
Hidden Weapons (Ex): At 4th level, a Ninja becomes a master at hiding weapons on his body. He adds his Ninja level to all Sleight of Hand skill checks made to prevent others from noticing them.
High Jump (Ex): At 5th level, a Ninja adds his level to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. A Ninja in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra jumping ability
Enhanced Mobility (Ex): Starting at 7th level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a Ninja gains an additional +4 bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity
caused when she moves out of a threatened square.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 8th level, a Ninja gains the ability to react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She cannot be caught f lat-footed, even if the attacker is invisible. She still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. A barbarian with this ability can still lose her Dexterity bonus to AC if an opponent successfully uses the feint action against her. If a Ninja already has uncanny dodge from a different class, she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead. A Ninja in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this ability.
Twin (Su): Starting at 10th level, once per day as a full round action a ninja may divide into two Ninjas, each having half of the original hit points and each having a base attack, saves, and abilities and skills equal to a ninja of half of his total ninja levels. The ninja is unable to cast any Ninja spells while separated. The second ninja appears within 5 feet of the original ninja, dressed in similar non-magical clothing identical to the original, but without any gear or equipment. A ninja can remain separated for 1 hour per ninja level.
For example a 10th level Ninja with 80 hit points could divide into two 5th level Ninjas, each having 40 hit points each, with base attack, saves and special abilities of a 5th level Ninjas. All skill checks would rolled at ½ of the original Ninja’s skill level. Base Ability scores remain unchanged.
Recombining is a standard action that requires the two ninjas to be within 10 squares of one another. If either Ninja is reduced to 0 hit points, the remaining Ninja is restored to its full level, however any hit points lost while separated remain lost. Additional, the ninja receives the staggered condition for a number of rounds equal to the level of the twin ninja that was slain. If the ninja is unable or unwilling to reattach with his twin within the allowed timeframe of the division, the twin is immediately reduced to zero hit points as if slain and disappears in a cloud of smoke, leaving behind all equipment. If this occurs, the remaining Ninja suffers effects as if the twin was slain by any other means.
Improved Evasion (Ex): At 10th level, a Ninja’s evasion ability improves. He still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks, but henceforth he takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless Ninja does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A Ninja of 11th level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny from another class, the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
A Thousand Faces (Su): At 14th level, a druid gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): At 17th level, a Ninja can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He
cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.
Divide (Su): Instead of only being able to split into two equal beings, the ninja can split into several Ninjas of whichever levels the ninja chooses so long as the primary ninja’s level is greater than or equal to all others and so that the total levels of all ninjas is equal to the total ninja levels.
Hit points and skill points are equal to the fraction of the level of the character, rounded down. Only the primary ninja suffers the staggered effect following the death of any one of the other ninjas, and the duration remains the number of rounds equal to the level of the Ninja slain.
Death Poison (Su): A Ninja can infuse one of his daily poisons with a “Death” poison. Unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the Ninja level + the Ninja’s Intelligence modifier), it dies.
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ninja spell list presented in Chapter 10. A ninja must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a ninja must have a Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a ninja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the ninja’s Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a ninja can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3–12. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1–3). When Table 3–12 indicates that the ninja gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Intelligence score for that spell level.
A ninja must spend 1 hour per day in quiet meditation to regain his daily allotment of spells. A ninja may prepare and cast any spell on the ninja spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.
Through 3rd level, a ninja has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, his caster level is equal to his ninja level – 3.
Spell List
1- Endure Elements , Obscuring Mist , True Strike , Memory Lapse ,Disguise Self ,Vanish , Cause Fear , Animate Rope , Expeditious Retreat , Feather Fall , Jump , Stone Fist ,Magic Weapon, Summon Nature’s Ally I, Produce Flame.
2 - Protection from Arrows , Fog Cloud , Dust of Twilight , Detect Thoughts , See Invisibility ,Daze Monster , Darkness , Blur , Invisibility , Blindness/Deafness , False Life , Scare , Accelerate Poison , Alter Self ,Cat's Grace,Darkvision, Codespeak Glide , Knock , Levitate , Pyrotechnics ,Spider Climb, Summon Nature’s Ally II
3- Nondetection , Arcane Sight , Tongues , Heroism , Suggestion , Major Image , Blink , Gaseous Form , Fly , Haste , Keen Edge, Versatile Weapon.Water Breathing, Summon Nature’s Ally III
4 - Stoneskin , Dimension Door , Solid Fog , Detect Scrying , Locate Creature , Scrying , Aura of the Unremarkable, Invisibility, Greater , Shadow Projection , Summon Nature’s Ally IV
Mostly just clean up, but also some small changes. Small Things to note that I am doing for balance that you might not notice immediately.
Ninja has less armor than monk, as he receives no bonuses to armor as he goes up in level. Should keep you behind the other full BAB melee classes and encourage strategy over tanking.
Very small list of ninja weapons (all from monk weapon list), as opposed to martial weapon proficiency. Even smaller list of somewhat suboptimal specific use weapons for “focus” abilities.
Evasion and uncanny dodge only work unarmed.
Spell list has very little offense and runs on the ranger caster level standards. You’ll also note I didn’t say they could cast arcane ninja spells wearing armor.
Twins get no spells to avoid both tracking and doubling casts per round. Twin isn’t supposed to be a “powerful” ability as much as a “strategic” ability.
Reduced to 4 skill points because of number of intelligence based skills, which could lead to more skill points. Don’t want it to out skill a rogue, as should be closer to a Ranger or Bard in Skill points.
It is intentional that there is no real dump stat. I hope this will also help balance the Ninja with the other full BAB classes as a less than optimal front line fighter.
You know, those of you who want a ninja class with ki abilities for Pathfinder don't have to look far - Rite Publishing already made it: Kusa of the Jade Oath
And Rite Publishing will be doing it again with the Ninja in Kaidan, but remember the ninja here is a monk and monk prestige class, not a rogue. He may share some Sneak Attack, but that's about it.
GP
No I am fine with a Ninja archetype or some neat new PRC's, but honestly that is all a Ninja is, a rogue in a new outfit.
And mystic powers from level 1, and greater restriction to armor use, and a greater focus on non social aspects, proficient in exotic weapons... (I am sure we could create a list a mile long).
Yeah I think it could be a class on its own, but might just end up a variant, however far of a stretch we would be looking at.
Not a single reason it should have mystic powers at level one other then "its a ninja and better"
Not a single reason it should have mystic powers at level one other then "its a ninja and better"
OH yeah I remember YOU. mystic =/= better...
Oh I have a 1 ki point pure use ability to be able to search and disable traps like a rogue for 1 round. Yeah that would be so much BETTER. Comeback when you can get over you irrationality.
P.S. If you haven't guessed it =/= means does not equal.
why should it do the very same thing a different way? Its a rogue, there is zero need to change how it does what it does just so you can call it mystic.
You guys are the irrational ones with "it must be mystic! Its a ninja!"
Honestly the rogue as is already has all the common ninja tropes. There is simply no need to add mystic ninja power! so you can do what you already do, but mystic.
Add new talents if ya feel the need, but no need to rewrite a class that already does what a ninja does.
But Japan had rogues who weren't ninja. From the crime syndicate types like Yakuza, outlaws like Nobushi, and a variety of burglar types named for the specific burglary technique or specific items they stole. These types are best described as rogues for a feudal Japan setting. Rogues aren't especially religious compared to the common citizenry. They didn't practice arcane rituals.
Ninja practiced Shugendo (magic practiced by shugenja/yamabushi), daoism and some folk belief cults of old Japan. Some believe (I do) that ninja were samurai houses especially skilled in sabotage and guerrila tactics, some that fell out of favor due to circumstance, as in supported the wrong side in a war lost.
Japanese rogues and ninja both existed and both had their own unique talents that were nothing like each other.
If ninja were just rogues, what would Japanese rogues be? Something else? Both exist in my setting, and as in Japan both were very different things. One can't simply say ninja is a rogue. It doesn't apply.
GP
But Japan had rogues who weren't ninja. From the crime syndicate types like Yakuza, outlaws like Nobushi, and a variety of burglar types named for the specific burglary technique or specific items they stole. These types are best described as rogues for a feudal Japan setting. Rogues aren't especially religious compared to the common citizenry. They didn't practice arcane rituals.
Ninja practiced Shugendo (magic practiced by shugenja/yamabushi), daoism and some folk belief cults of old Japan. Some believe (I do) that ninja were samurai houses especially skilled in sabotage and guerrila tactics, some that fell out of favor due to circumstance, as in supported the wrong side in a war lost.
Japanese rogues and ninja both existed and both had their own unique talents that were nothing like each other.
If ninja were just rogues, what would Japanese rogues be? Something else? Both exist in my setting, and as in Japan both were very different things. One can't simply say ninja is a rogue. It doesn't apply.
GP
Historicly, you are correct.
Mechanicly, in PFRPG, ninjas are rogues.
But Japan had rogues who weren't ninja. From the crime syndicate types like Yakuza, outlaws like Nobushi, and a variety of burglar types named for the specific burglary technique or specific items they stole. These types are best described as rogues for a feudal Japan setting. Rogues aren't especially religious compared to the common citizenry. They didn't practice arcane rituals.
Ninja practiced Shugendo (magic practiced by shugenja/yamabushi), daoism and some folk belief cults of old Japan. Some believe (I do) that ninja were samurai houses especially skilled in sabotage and guerrila tactics, some that fell out of favor due to circumstance, as in supported the wrong side in a war lost.
Japanese rogues and ninja both existed and both had their own unique talents that were nothing like each other.
If ninja were just rogues, what would Japanese rogues be? Something else? Both exist in my setting, and as in Japan both were very different things. One can't simply say ninja is a rogue. It doesn't apply.
GP
Historicly, you are correct.
Mechanicly, in PFRPG, ninjas are rogues.
Ah, ninja don't currently exist in PFRPG, except for Super Genius 3pp version, and that is not a rogue either. Even looking at 3x, ninjas were not rogues. So how could anyone state 'mechanically in PFRPG, ninjas are rogues.' When I look in the Core rules, I don't see ninja anywhere.
Had they already existed in PF, I might agree, but they aren't there, that is why this thread exists at all.
GP
Yakuza was an organization. Also not all rogues are thieves,you guys are getting hung up on the class fluff, but not looking at what the class mechanics do.
If you were to show that class to a new player, who had not seen the rogue before and replace the name with Ninja, he wouldn't bat an eye at it.
The class tropes that are most common are part of the rogue class as it stands now. Most people are not gonna tell you a ninja is a spellcaster or shapeshifter or anima inspired class.
Most are gonna describe something that fall almost 100% into the rogue class, you can have swashbucklers and rogues in the same setting even though they are both rogues. Why can't you have ninja and rogues in the same setting?
Ninja's used their own tactics and were organized, but that does not make them not rogues mechanically. They were spys,sabatoures and assassins. The more you look at a ninja the more mechanically it is a rogue.
A soldier, noble knight and a heartless killer can all be a fighter all hail from different groups and be vastly different but they are all still fighters.
Why besides fluff is a ninja not a rogue?
But Japan had rogues who weren't ninja. From the crime syndicate types like Yakuza, outlaws like Nobushi, and a variety of burglar types named for the specific burglary technique or specific items they stole. These types are best described as rogues for a feudal Japan setting. Rogues aren't especially religious compared to the common citizenry. They didn't practice arcane rituals.
Ninja practiced Shugendo (magic practiced by shugenja/yamabushi), daoism and some folk belief cults of old Japan. Some believe (I do) that ninja were samurai houses especially skilled in sabotage and guerrila tactics, some that fell out of favor due to circumstance, as in supported the wrong side in a war lost.
Japanese rogues and ninja both existed and both had their own unique talents that were nothing like each other.
If ninja were just rogues, what would Japanese rogues be? Something else? Both exist in my setting, and as in Japan both were very different things. One can't simply say ninja is a rogue. It doesn't apply.
GP
Historicly, you are correct.
Mechanicly, in PFRPG, ninjas are rogues.Ah, ninja don't currently exist in PFRPG, except for Super Genius 3pp version, and that is not a rogue either. Even looking at 3x, ninjas were not rogues. So how could anyone state 'mechanically in PFRPG, ninjas are rogues.' When I look in the Core rules, I don't see ninja anywhere.
Had they already existed in PF, I might agree, but they aren't there, that is why this thread exists at all.
GP
Umm the reason why you don't see them? Is because it's under the rogue class. I don't think they'd waste the space in the Core Rulebook to reprint rogue twice and call one of em ninja, tbh.
Smarm aside...
When I said "Mechanicly, in PFRPG, ninjas are rogues", I meant, which I believe you already know, that mechanicis-wise ninjas are already faithfully represented as rogues. Please don't be obtuse.
Yakuza was an organization. Also not all rogues are thieves,you guys are getting hung up on the class fluff, but not looking at what the class mechanics do.
If you were to show that class to a new player, who had not seen the rogue before and replace the name with Ninja, he wouldn't bat an eye at it.
The class tropes that are most common are part of the rogue class as it stands now. Most people are not gonna tell you a ninja is a spellcaster or shapeshifter or anima inspired class.
Most are gonna describe something that fall almost 100% into the rogue class, you can have swashbucklers and rogues in the same setting even though they are both rogues. Why can't you have ninja and rogues in the same setting?
Ninja's used their own tactics and were organized, but that does not make them not rogues mechanically. They were spys,sabatoures and assassins. The more you look at a ninja the more mechanically it is a rogue.
A soldier, noble knight and a heartless killer can all be a fighter all hail from different groups and be vastly different but they are all still fighters.
Why besides fluff is a ninja not a rogue?
And if a new player had never seen a wizard before and you showed him a Bard, and titled it 'wizard' he wouldn't know the difference.
Really the only commonailty between rogue and ninja is stealth and climbing, those are not a class, rather skills. A paladin could take stealth if he wanted, though it might not be class appropriate. In such a case would a paladin and ninja be the same thing?
Yakuza was a relationship - foster father/foster son, with many sons and tiers of fathers, it was a bastardized family unit. Though it worked as a very efficient organization. Not so much a stealth class, the Yakuza are more social skilled with a cross between intimidation and diplomacy, bluff and sense motive, with violence if the goals of the yakuza were not accorded. The rogue skills on the social side are best used by Yakuza.
A soldier makes an ideal fighter. A knight makes an ideal cavalier, a heartless killer makes an ideal assassin. Those are two different classes and a prestige class. Sure you could 'shoehorn' those other archetypes into a fighter, but you'd have to shoehorn them, or replace certain capabiities as skills instead of features. Most classes, however have class features to accomodate skills.
To fit ninja into a rogue you really have to 'shoehorn' it Basically drop ninja ideals, techniques, training and replace with class features they don't really need. I could see bard as a better fit than rogue, but still requires some 'shoehorning'. Why go to the trouble of cutting ninja abilities, just to fit the limitations of a different class? Rogues aren't limited, but only 25% of what they do work for ninja, and the other 75% ninja require, rogue has no substitute ability.
I don't want to dimish the rogue, as they are essential and necessary. In a feudal Japan setting, rogues and ninja are necessary elements. Calling all classes 'samurai' sounds like L5R. I don't want to squeeze in all that verisimilitude into a single class, where they largely don't belong.
In my setting, as in Japan, ninja are a type of monk, not a rogue at all. Stealth is a monk class skill. Is a monk the same as a rogue?
@Kryzbyn - yes I know what you meant, but as you admitted you were doing a smarm... in my response, so was I.
GP
And if a new player had never seen a wizard before and you showed him a Bard, and titled it 'wizard' he wouldn't know the difference.
Not really, to many bardic ability do not match a "wizard" ...what the hell is wizardly performance? Now if you showed em a sorcerer or maybe a witch and called it a wizard your would be correct but a bard would not work as to many ability do not match wizard tropes
Really the only commonailty between rogue and ninja is stealth and climbing, those are not a class, rather skills. A paladin could take stealth if he wanted, though it might not be class appropriate. In such a case would a paladin and ninja be the same thing?
So the ninja only has stealth? No need for even a archetype if all a ninja is is stealth. The ninja is known to have a set of skills, which the rogue has, the rogues talent system also mimics a great many "ninja ability" Sneak attack mimics the common ninja trope of knowing the weak points of an enemy.
Really if you think stealth is all a ninja is, there is zero point to even having an archetype everyone is a ninja
Yakuza was a relationship - foster father/foster son, with many sons and tiers of fathers, it was a bastardized family unit. Though it worked as a very efficient organization. Not so much a stealth class, the Yakuza are more social skilled with a cross between intimidation and diplomacy, bluff and sense motive, with violence if the goals of the yakuza were not accorded. The rogue skills on the social side are best used by Yakuza.
It's still and organization, and yes it could be mostly rogues that does not mean all rogues are Yakuza. They and the ninja can both be rogues, just as swahsbucklers are also rogues..are Yakuza all swashbucklers?
You have yet to show why Ninja are their own class, you have shown why they should not even have an archetype,they are black clad anyone with stealth it seems.
So the ninja only has stealth?
No the only thing common between a rogue and a ninja is stealth and climb, not the only thing...
A ninja requires alchemical/pyrotechnic and poison training. A ninja could activate powers of inner strength to perform extraordinary abilities, whether it was ki, daoist ritual, shugendo to accomplish them, and what specific techniques they were, are lost to history. Could they actually turn invisible? There are no true records and the non-ninja Japanese believed they could. A ninja was a trained martial artist in both body style and use of specialized weapons that worked in both combat and non combat encounters. A ninja needs special movement and infiltration skills.
The historic ninja doesn't need sneak attack/sudden strike, perhaps it works for the modern wuxia/manga style. I don't think the ninja needs this at all. Poison training and techniques for introducing poisons into said victims, as well as special feats/skills related to coup de grace are really best as far as ninja as a combatant or assassin is concerned. Similarly I don't think Death Attack applies either.
Trapsense is nice, but Trapfinding is a rogue thing, not a ninja thing. The ninja doesn't want to step on the trap, nor does he want to undo the trap - its none of his concern.
Except for maybe Ledgewalker, or minor/magic magic, and a few combat tricks - rogue talents don't really fit well, or need to be completely overhauled to be ninja class appropriate. Could some Rogue Talents be useful? Certainly, but they'd be useful for any class if they could access them - I've got a caster who wouldn't mind possessing some rogue talents. Usefulness to a class is the not the same as fitting the class ideal.
So in the end we're talking about fitting a mystical monk like class with an emphasis on black ops. While a rogue would love to have some of these abilities, he has his own and neither sets of skills are appropriate for the other, unless you completely discount history and legend. Most games try to emulate the ideal in classes, and so am I.
GP
PS: ninja weren't 'black clad', that's a TV/Movie/media thing related to a kabuki theater idea of ninja introduced in the 15th century, but had no connection to actual ninja. Ninja dress as farmers, monks, bards, any traveler one would expect to find in any given place. Ninja of Kaidan never wear black 'PJ's.
My main point GP was to say that you are using "real life history" stuff to back up why you think ninjas need their own class in a game where the rogue, mechanicly, already fits.
No amount of a history lesson is going to explain why the mechanics as is for a rogue won't work, or why a new class is needed.
The 3.5 ninja was just a rogue with a worse back-stab and a ki pool.
This could be done in PF with an archetype...
I have to disagree, your still describing a rogue. Alchemical/pyrotechnic are items, we already have the ninja classic smoke sticks in game. If you really want poison use, fine trade it for trapfinding and ya know what..you still have a rogue.
I have yet to see anything to back up "but its mystic" Add Ki talents and done, nothing about a ninja says anything other then "I am a rogue" The class have all the skills a ninja would need and enough skill points to use them, the class has a built in system that mimics most classic ninja tropes, the class has a combat ability that also mimics the ninja "hit the weak point" trope.
The class simply does everything a ninja is suppose to do. I disagree with the idea they are monks, The monk to me has to many ability just not associated with the ninja.
And yes I know they did not wear the black outfit, but when you say ninja that is the image they get. Many people here seem to think the outfit is enough justification alone for a new class, which is just silly.
Oh, I agree that's very silly. You won't see black PJs on the ninja equipment list in Kaidan...
I've looked at Ranger in the past as a possible ninja archetype, it just required too many changes to fit. But varying combat styles, replace divine casting at 4th with Ki powers. Full BAB is a bit much, but certainly helpful if you plan to be in more melees with your ninja. In my opinion, if you are a ninja in melee, you somehow really screwed up. A ninja is supposed to never be seen, not beating you in a fight.
A creative class designer, using APG archetype ideas could take any class, swap features around and build almost any other class - mostly as martial for martial, or caster for caster, but you could design a ninja like guy that fits in any class.
I also agree that most monk abilities don't easily apply to ninja, but I do think its closer than rogue.
That's why ninja is a prestige class with monk as a primary prerequisite class. The other classes don't fit well enough, so a prestige class does that job better, IMO.
GP
Meh...
To each their own.
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But Japan had rogues who weren't ninja.
...
If ninja were just rogues, what would Japanese rogues be?
In case you haven't notices, rogues can fill an ENORMOUS number of roles within a campaign. They're probably THE most flexible class.
Golarion has rogues who aren't thieves. But you don't see anyone trying to convince Paizo to make a separate thief class, because it's blatantly obvious that one of the many roles that a rogue can fill is that of a thief. Another is that of a ninja. The only reason people want to give the ninja special treatment is the infestation of "it's Asian so it must be different/better".
Kthulhu, I agree - you could probably create an entire rogue based on different archetypes for a full party of adventurers.
In my setting, rogues have 3 to 5 different roles to fulfill, and ninja isn't one of them, but I definitely do need the rogue class.
And while I definitely plan to create the Ninja PrC for Kaidan, if you're playing the setting, you can easily switch to straight rogue if that suits you better, nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't fit the ideal for my ninja in my publication.
Options, I prefer options.
GP
Your free to do what you like for your setting, but for general use a Ninja really is just a rogue, we are not talking about just your setting but the Ninja's of Tian Xia and how the rule set should represent them.
If swashbuckler is just a rogue archetype I stand behind what I said and say the Ninja is nothing more then that as well. The class simply hits all the common tropes of what a ninja is mechanically.
There is simply no need for a new class when one already does the very same thing.