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Just my last flog at a dead horse and I'm done with it.
I've heard all the people who DON'T want a ninja class; feel free to pepper my thread with fear and loathing by all means, but know that I'm making voodoo dolls, printing out your avatar's image, pinning it to the head, and torturing the poor thing's doodads with a pliers.
Is there anybody (sides me) who wants a ninja class? Nobody wanted side treks but me, maybe I'm a minority of one here.
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Just my last flog at a dead horse and I'm done with it.
I've heard all the people who DON'T want a ninja class; feel free to pepper my thread with fear and loathing by all means, but know that I'm making voodoo dolls, printing out your avatar's image, pinning it to the head, and torturing the poor thing's doodads with a pliers.
Is there anybody (sides me) who wants a ninja class? Nobody wanted side treks but me, maybe I'm a minority of one here.
You are not alone
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/whatShouldANinjaBe&page=1#14
Why stop there, we need a whole new class for ever single Asian concept ever. As its Asian it just must have a new class.
No I am fine with a Ninja archetype or some neat new PRC's, but honestly that is all a Ninja is, a rogue in a new outfit.
I don't really like PRC's and tye should be world specific and not just a collection of "better" stuff but yeah if the red mantis and assassins are PRC's so should "mystic" ninja.
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I think we should have a new base class for wizards who wear pointy hats. After all, there's all this outcry for rogues wearing black pajamas to get their own class. And I like to play wizards who wear pointy hats. The Core Rules don't specifically say that the core wizard can wear pointy hats, so obviously we need a new base class that can wear pointy hats.
Yes, I'd like a Ninja class. [d'oh, look at my screen neame ;-)]
I guess the best way to say how I see it is that I do not see ninjas as rogues, I see them as spies and assassins. Is 007 merely a rogue?
No matter which way Paizo goes with this, someone will be upset, but from JJ's post in another thread, I got the impression they are considering a Ninja class.
In pathfinder, ya bet he is a rogue. He needs the skills and the sneak attack.
And again spy's and assassin = rogue.
I have to say James if Ninja's are anything more then a rogue archetype I for one will be disappointed. A outfit is not enough reason for a new class.
So I don't count because I want a Ninja and not a manga super better then you class?
I think a new class makes a perfectly good organizing principle for a character's special powers. A class can even be flexible, containing widely varied special powers for a number of different character types (like the Cleric or the Sorcerer).
To that end, I think "ninja" class that contained weird families of powers to choose from based on your clan or whatever, would be neat. I'm thinking that Ninja Scroll type ninjas fit the setting a lot better than any ultra-historical version would, just because weird supernatural powers are the status quo.
Likewise, a Samurai class could very easily serve as an organizing principle for a matrial class with a few Paladin- or Ranger-level supernatural options thrown in. Again, giving a choice for a bunch of new powers makes sense.
Yes there are people out there who want everything from these classes. I say ignore them, but at least a flexible class construction with something akin to domains/bloodlines will give those people the option of getting the ninja/samurai that's right for them.
For my part, making these classes historically accurate is a pointless trap. They should only be as accurate as the super-powered fiction of those cultures, because Pathfinder is a game about superpowers (and fighters are just Batman).
That's just my opinion. I'm not a huge ninja fan, but I see plenty of crazy powers in oriental fiction, so a campaign setting there should be totally doable.
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So I don't count because I want a Ninja and not a manga super better then you class?
You have made your position very clear on several threads. Some people agree with you, some disagree with you. Either way, we see your posts at this point and understand your position.
Your definition of Ninja is different that some of ours. No one wants an unbalanced uberclass. But most of us feel that a ninja doesn't fit into existing categories, similar to how Rangers and Paladins don't fit neatly under Cleric/Figher or Druid/Fighter.
Maybe you play with the base 4 classes, and have people multiclass out from there. More power to you if you do. But some of us like variety. I can see why you may be concerned that Paizo might turn into WoTC and churn out something awful like the book of 9 swords or the 3.5 Ninja, but I have faith they will do the research and create something fun to play with a completely separate flavor you can't get from existing classes.
They did a great job with the new classes in the APG, and are on the way to making the Magus a fine addition.
More is better, to most of us. You don't have to use new classes. Some people still play Players Handbook only 3.5 games, and are completely content.
And some of us want variety. Paizo, as a publisher of material, certainly wants to be able to create new content.
Pathfinder is like Pho, you can season to your hearts content or just eat it as is. But most people like to add stuff.
So I don't count because I want a Ninja and not a manga super better then you class?
Not to threadjack, but could you restate your position for those of us who haven't read other ninja threads?
So I don't count because I want a Ninja and not a manga super better then you class?Not to threadjack, but could you restate your position for those of us who haven't read other ninja threads?
The the Ninja is at best a rogue archetype. The rogue as currently written fits the Ninja, ya can even take magic if you like. A Archetype and some new rogue talents are as far as I think the ninja class should go.
Same with the samurai it is a caviler.
I think a new class makes a perfectly good organizing principle for a character's special powers. A class can even be flexible, containing widely varied special powers for a number of different character types (like the Cleric or the Sorcerer).
To that end, I think "ninja" class that contained weird families of powers to choose from based on your clan or whatever, would be neat. I'm thinking that Ninja Scroll type ninjas fit the setting a lot better than any ultra-historical version would, just because weird supernatural powers are the status quo.
Likewise, a Samurai class could very easily serve as an organizing principle for a matrial class with a few Paladin- or Ranger-level supernatural options thrown in. Again, giving a choice for a bunch of new powers makes sense.
Yes there are people out there who want everything from these classes. I say ignore them, but at least a flexible class construction with something akin to domains/bloodlines will give those people the option of getting the ninja/samurai that's right for them.
For my part, making these classes historically accurate is a pointless trap. They should only be as accurate as the super-powered fiction of those cultures, because Pathfinder is a game about superpowers (and fighters are just Batman).
That's just my opinion. I'm not a huge ninja fan, but I see plenty of crazy powers in oriental fiction, so a campaign setting there should be totally doable.
+1. I like a more historical ninja, but I concede that to really make them work they must be more mystical than that. I much prefer the idea of a "modular" ninja class that can be customized to fit ones own image of a ninja.
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Okay, so three people besides me want an actual ninja "class."
I haven't counted seekersofshadowlight in that tally.
Okay.
five people besides me want an actual ninja "class."If I decide to count Seekerofshadowlight in that tally, then 5+1=6.
But seekerofshadowlight has to convince me that he actually wants a ninja "class" and that the ninja isn't just a rogue archetype.
So far, he has, time and again, espoused the opposite view.
So I don't count because I want a Ninja and not a manga super better then you class?Not to threadjack, but could you restate your position for those of us who haven't read other ninja threads?The the Ninja is at best a rogue archetype. The rogue as currently written fits the Ninja, ya can even take magic if you like. A Archetype and some new rogue talents are as far as I think the ninja class should go.
Same with the samurai it is a caviler.
Is it weird that I totally agree with you, and yet I would still like to see east-Asian class treatments with unique powersets anyway?
I definitely would still want to be able to use the rogue and cavalier powers in that setting, as I agree they totally belong.
Evil Lincoln,, if it can not be covered with the current class, or archetypes sure. The ninja is not one of those things however.
New "Ninja" rogue talents..cool
New Ninja archetype which trades a few things for something else..cool
New PRC's to explore some of the more mystic or elite groups...cool
Brand new class for what is really a rogue..not cool
Honestly I can see the trapfinding going, not sure what to replace it with but I think the cavalier works fine as it stands. I do see some weapon list swapping but other then that not a lot.
I think a new class makes a perfectly good organizing principle for a character's special powers. A class can even be flexible, containing widely varied special powers for a number of different character types (like the Cleric or the Sorcerer).
To that end, I think "ninja" class that contained weird families of powers to choose from based on your clan or whatever, would be neat. I'm thinking that Ninja Scroll type ninjas fit the setting a lot better than any ultra-historical version would, just because weird supernatural powers are the status quo.
Likewise, a Samurai class could very easily serve as an organizing principle for a matrial class with a few Paladin- or Ranger-level supernatural options thrown in. Again, giving a choice for a bunch of new powers makes sense.
Yes there are people out there who want everything from these classes. I say ignore them, but at least a flexible class construction with something akin to domains/bloodlines will give those people the option of getting the ninja/samurai that's right for them.
For my part, making these classes historically accurate is a pointless trap. They should only be as accurate as the super-powered fiction of those cultures, because Pathfinder is a game about superpowers (and fighters are just Batman).
That's just my opinion. I'm not a huge ninja fan, but I see plenty of crazy powers in oriental fiction, so a campaign setting there should be totally doable.
You hit the nail right on the head. This is exactly how I feel a fantasy Samurai and Ninja should be portrayed in a game setting such as D&D or Pathfinder. I can imagine a Samurai with ki abilities similar to the Monk's but geared towards combat and willpower, and definitely daisho abilities, along with staple stuff like Mounted Combat for free, etc.. A Ninja, likewise, that'd be awesome with the different clans, like a Shadow Clan or a Fire Clan, etc.
I hope Paizo saw your post, because that has to be the best post I've ever seen written on how the Samurai and Ninja of the game should be crafted.
I have to say James if Ninja's are anything more then a rogue archetype I for one will be disappointed. A outfit is not enough reason for a new class.
Why, exactly, are Ninjas the same as Rogues?
I think Paizo members need to play a lot of Final Fantasy (especially Tactics) and watch a lot of anime. Then maybe they will get a good idea of how to make a Samurai and Ninja class while mixing a bit of historical stuff in it.
Who else makes the best fantasy Samurai and Ninja but Japan themselves? Enlighten yourselves, Paizo! :D
I have to say James if Ninja's are anything more then a rogue archetype I for one will be disappointed. A outfit is not enough reason for a new class.Why, exactly, are Ninjas the same as Rogues?
Because they are? The Ninja can be built almost 100% from the core rogue, ya add in vanish from the APG and they can even go invisible. Every single thing that screams "Ninja" is built into the rogue class.
I do think some weapon swap may be needed and they can loose trap finding, but otherwise they are pretty much ready to go ninja's as they sit.
Evil Lincoln,, if it can not be covered with the current class, or archetypes sure. The ninja is not one of those things however.
New "Ninja" rogue talents..cool
New Ninja archetype which trades a few things for something else..cool
New PRC's to explore some of the more mystic or elite groups...coolBrand new class for what is really a rogue..not cool
Honestly I can see the trapfinding going, not sure what to replace it with but I think the cavalier works fine as it stands. I do see some weapon list swapping but other then that not a lot.
I have to agree with seekerofshadowlight on this one. In truth, there is no real need for a ninja class. I'm sure Paizo would do a better job then the 3.5 ninja, but not everything needs its own, specific class.
In essence, a ninja is a rogue with mystical powers. I actually had a player run a ninja character in an Absalom campaign I was running, and all he did was make a rogue and took the magic rogue talents picking spells that matched fabled ninja powers. If something can be made with existing classes, it doesn't deserve it's own class.
Now, I will say I have no problem with seeing a ninja prestige class. Prestige classes are supposed to be classes that focus on a specific archetype of a base class, and the ninja is basically that.
Just putting my two cents in.
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I'm in the Ninja = rogue camp. as mentioned it can pretty much be coverd by giving an archtype as follows Trade out some weapons for other ones, drop trap sence for some other ability (perhaps a bonus to use magic device when using particular spell scrolls) add in some new rogue talents with a ninja feel and bam your done.
Ban all paladins, rangers, druids, oracles, and cavaliers. We already have fightan mans and clerics, why do we need all these other classes?
For the record I don't care if there is or isn't a ninja class, but come on. If we can have all those other base classes for things that "FIGHTAN MAN" can cover, we can have different "sneaky" characters, too.
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3.5 was full of classes that could be used to portray a ninja. Rogue, Monk, Psychic Warrior, Lurk, Ranger, Swordsage, Warblade and Ninja. And probably even more like Wizard/WuJen.
Saying that a ninja is just a rogue seems rather limiting to me, similar to saying that any swashbuckler is just a rogue.
So, in my opinion, an archetype aproach might be the best thing to do. But not limited to a rogue. Monk ninjas, ranger ninjas or fighter ninjas should also be available.
I don't really care how ninjas are portrayed in Tian Xia - if it doesn't fit with my particular view it could always be hit with the ban-hammer or replaced with either a rogue or a class that can use any of the abilities of other classes as a free action as necessary. ;)
However, I would like some fluff to explain why a ninja, whose main job is to covertly infiltrate places, is stomping around killing monsters with a samurai and a wizard.
At the very least, Ninja deserves its own class variant. While the historical ninja *is* just a Rogue/Assassin/Spy archtype, our modern and mythological understanding of a ninja is much more than just a character skilled at stealth and neat (but mundane) tricks.
If Paizo is up for it, I wouldn't mind a Ninja prestige class or even a full base class. However, I think Rogues already have a lot of great prestige class options (Arcane Trickster, Assassin, Master Spy, Red Mantis, etc) and we should think about showing some love elsewhere first.
I'd personally make a PF Ninja through a class variant (either Rogue or Monk) coupled with a group of supernatural Rogue talents.
For the record I don't care if there is or isn't a ninja class, but come on. If we can have all those other base classes for things that "FIGHTAN MAN" can cover, we can have different "sneaky" characters, too.
Well, those classes have dramatically different mechanics. This is the point I guess. Makes sense a ninja if you bring in new mechanics, otherwise refluff can be enough.
If the new mechanics are a new archetype or a whole new class, it's a designer's choice.
'til then, I'm pretty much fine refluffing classes, generally rogues.
Count me in with the people who want a ninja class. I think that if a concept is big enough to stand on it's own and wide enough that a single PrC or archetype is not enough it should be a class. Isn't that why we have a barbarian class (for example), instead of rage feats? Why are the viking berserker and the hunter separate enough from the fighter to have their own classes, but the pirate/musketeer, samurai and gladiator aren't?
As a side note why are people so hung up about historical accuracy with oriental classes? Witch of the core classes is historically accurate? The fighter isn't, and neither is the rogue... maybe the wizard?
However, I would like some fluff to explain why a ninja, whose main job is to covertly infiltrate places, is stomping around killing monsters with a samurai and a wizard.Because a lot of places that need infiltrating protect themselves with dungeons full of monsters the ninja can't handle alone?
Doesn't seem very likely (or covert) to me. He can disguise himself and have more chance acting on his own... which leads to boring party-splitting stuff.
Because they are? The Ninja can be built almost 100% from the core rogue, ya add in vanish from the APG and they can even go invisible. Every single thing that screams "Ninja" is built into the rogue class.
You entirely failed to answer the question.
I can build a Summoner 100% from the Wizard.
Or an Oracle from the Cleric. Or an Inquisitor from the Paladin.
Etc
Everyone keeps thinking of the Complete Adventurer Ninja instead of thinking what can be done with a Ninja. That is made even more obvious because realistically, the Ninja would be made from the Monk, not the Rogue.
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Because they are? The Ninja can be built almost 100% from the core rogue, ya add in vanish from the APG and they can even go invisible. Every single thing that screams "Ninja" is built into the rogue class.
You entirely failed to answer the question.
I can build a Summoner 100% from the Wizard.
Or an Oracle from the Cleric. Or an Inquisitor from the Paladin.
EtcEveryone keeps thinking of the Complete Adventurer Ninja instead of thinking what can be done with a Ninja. That is made even more obvious because realistically, the Ninja would be made from the Monk, not the Rogue.
Come over to the other thread :)
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/whatShouldANinjaBe
Come over to the other thread :)http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/whatShouldANinjaBe
I don't care what a Ninja should be. I was just making the point that people are pre-biased because of Complete Adventurer and the Monk is the only Asian themed class in D&D which also has a number of mythical Asian abilities that the Ninja would have as a mythical Asian martial artist. Given an unbiased view, one would be saying the Monk is already a Ninja. And they would also be wrong because see: Oracle, Summoner, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc.
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I don't care what a Ninja should be. I was just making the point that people are pre-biased because of Complete Adventurer and the Monk is the only Asian themed class in D&D which also has a number of mythical Asian abilities that the Ninja would have as a mythical Asian martial artist. Given an unbiased view, one would be saying the Monk is already a Ninja. And they would also be wrong because see: Oracle, Summoner, Inquisitor, Alchemist, etc.
Come over to the other thread :)http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules/whatShouldANinjaBe
No, strangely in this thread we agree. I'm I was telling you to come over to add input to a discussion about how much the complete adventurer ninja stunk and how to make one that doesn't. But if you don't care, that is cool too...
You entirely failed to answer the question.I can build a Summoner 100% from the Wizard.
Or an Oracle from the Cleric. Or an Inquisitor from the Paladin.
EtcEveryone keeps thinking of the Complete Adventurer Ninja instead of thinking what can be done with a Ninja. That is made even more obvious because realistically, the Ninja would be made from the Monk, not the Rogue.
Yes, I did and no you can not.The Rogue does mechanically just what a ninja does, He is stealthy, has "Ninja" skills, can do mystic tricks , hell he can go invisible at level 4
You can't say that with your examples.
I think everyone can see the rationale of both options.
In the long run, I think the setting should be crafted in such a way as to allow "rogue ninjas" and "newclass ninjas." There are, in fact, a bunch of east-Asian trope powers that are hard to achieve or missing from the Pathfinder game, and I would like to see one or two new flexible classes to deal with that.
The most graceful solution might be to sidestep the controversy by avoiding the terms "ninja" and samurai", and creating new martial, skill, arcane and divine classes for those east-Asian power sets. Find suitable generic terms for those classes, and suddenly... it doesn't matter what people think a "ninja" is, because the class isn't called "ninja".
Personally, I'd rather Paizo be brazen and take the "ninja" and "samurai" terms if they desire. but the above seems like a good compromise if they want to.
I don't really have a horse in this race. Although I like ninja and samurai (slightly more), I think we need to take the history, the fiction, the game design AND the setting design all into account when considering what makes for a good published class. I'll know more about what the ninja should be when I know more about the world they live in.
For example, these are two overtly Japanese cultural figures. I should like to see a class that was flexible enough to include China, Mongolia, and Korea as well. So, screw the ninja, give me a class that will let me play a Ki fighter (w/ a greatsword. And No Multiclassing, thnx).
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I don't care what a Ninja should be. I was just making the point that people are pre-biased because of Complete Adventurer
I don't think I'm overly biased because of that book, since I:
1. never owned it, and2. only briefly thumbed through it at best.
I can build a Summoner 100% from the Wizard.
Show me. I expect it to fully replicate the eidolon concept at least somewhat faithfully.