So, despite the Strength penalty and size penalty to CMD, halfling monks make the best grapplers simply because their CMD will be so high no one could ever hope to escape on anything but a natural 20.
CMD = 9 + BAB + Str + Dex + Wis* + monk level** + 1/4 monk level*
* From the monk AC class ability
** From the alternate favored class bonus
Sure you suffer a (small) -2 penalty over medium creatures for your size and strength, but once you get them in that headlock, there really isn't an escape.
The only real problem is that you could only grapple up to medium creatures. Nevertheless, you will be snapping medium sized necks like twigs all over the place. If giants and othber large creatures ecome a big enough problem, you can always have the party spellcaster cast enlarge person on you to make their necks viable targets as well.
A halfling fighter does nearly as well due to his higher BAB and similar alternate favored class options.
Are you sure 'resisting a grapple' is the same as attacking with one?
It's not totally clear to me that "resisting a grapple" is the same as "preventing an opponent from escaping", either. It seems ambiguous.
He didn`t say it was the same, he said `once you get them in that headlock, there really isn`t an escape`, because Escaping/Reversing a Grapple requires beating your CMD. The grappled opponent is attempting their own Grapple check to Escape/Reverse, and your static CMD is `resisting` that roll. He never suggested `getting them in that headlock` is any easier (and in fact is harder than for humans).
BTW, Ravingdork, there is no size restriction on Grapple itself anymore, only on special abilities like Snatch and Grab`s -20 option to not be Grappled yourself (which allows movement). Big and strong monsters just have bigger CMD and CMB scores is all.
Offensively, the Halfling Grappler Monk is definitely going to want Greater Grapple to counter their offensive penalties. Interestingly, on rounds where you can 5`step Standard Grapple + Move Action Maintain, their super CMD is less relevant because the target doesn`t have a chance to target their super CMD and try to escape...
Defensively, obviously, they are extremely hard to Grapple, even with 3/4 Monk BAB used for CMD. This allows even those who DON`T take either Imp. or Grt. Grapple to be really hard to Grapple, which is cool.
But if that Halfling Monk can get a Truestrike cast on him, he`s going to succeed almost for sure against almost anything (anybody would) AND it`s going to be damn tough to get out of...
It's not totally clear to me that "resisting a grapple" is the same as "preventing an opponent from escaping", either. It seems ambiguous.
I think the rules make it the same. That's what they get for changing how combat "maneuvers" work.
Of course, how a Halfling Monk is going to get anyone into a Grapple at all is another matter entirely.
He didn`t say it was the same, he said `once you get them in that headlock, there really isn`t an escape`, because Escaping/Reversing a Grapple requires beating your CMD. The grappled opponent is attempting their own Grapple check to Escape/Reverse, and your static CMD is `resisting` that roll. He never suggested `getting them in that headlock` is any easier (and in fact is harder than for humans).
I have grown so accustomed to people misunderstanding my meaning that I find myself pleasantly surprised when someone finally gets it right.
BTW, Ravingdork, there is no size restriction on Grapple itself anymore, only on special abilities like Snatch and Grab`s -20 option to not be Grappled yourself (which allows movement). Big and strong monsters just have bigger CMD and CMB scores is all.
!!!
Whoa. Pathfinder continues to surprise me with its little (but significant) changes.
Whoa. Pathfinder continues to surprise me with its little (but significant) changes.
There never were any rules preventing you from grappling some one larger than you.
There never were any rules preventing you from grappling some one larger than you.
Unless, of course, you count the rules that did, such as "You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are."
There never were any rules preventing you from grappling some one larger than you.Unless, of course, you count the rules that did, such as "You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are."
That's an inane rule subdivision which is probably why I didn't see it.
Now we wait for Halfling Monks to Grapple Colossal Red Dragons by holding onto their tree-sized leg.
I hope it works for you, I picture your monk as a mini-me type of guy. Just crawling over faces. XD
Now we wait for Halfling Monks to Grapple Colossal Red Dragons by holding onto their tree-sized leg.
Hmm, snacks that pack themselves? Yummy :)
Hmm, snacks that pack themselves? Yummy :)
Now we wait for Halfling Monks to Grapple Colossal Red Dragons by holding onto their tree-sized leg.
I see it as the halfling monk jumping up, grabbing the dragon's nose hairs, swinging down, hooking his little feet underneath the dragon's chin, and holding the dragon's jaws shut as he holds on for dear life. The dragon stays in place and tries to claw the little pimple off his face.
With the right tug, the little halfling can cause the dragon such pain that it either stumbles in a direction of the halfling's choosing (moving the grapple) or can do little else but whimper (pin).
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If giants and othber large creatures ecome a big enough problem, you can always have the party spellcaster cast enlarge person on you to make their necks viable targets as well.
Another tactic is reduce person on the giant. He gets a save. More little yet significant changes. In this case: giants are type Humanoid (giant) and thus subject to all spells that target humanoids.
I'd be inclined to think that resisting a grapple specifically talks about escape ie escape artist or breaking a hold.
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers.
Its not that hobbits get any bonus to enforce their will on the enemy but they are very squirmy and inherently difficult to hold on to.
Grapples can be reversed and there is a clear aggressor and defender in a grapple situation. I don't think this bonus applies when the hobbit is the aggressor.
ie... He gets no racial bonus to pin the green dragon or maintain an attack only to escape it.
ymmv though
ie... He gets no racial bonus to pin the green dragon or maintain an attack only to escape it.
Of course he doesn't! That's because in those instances he is the one making the grapple check, thereby making ANY bonuses to his his CMD moot.
However, when he grapples someone and said someone makes a grapple check against the halfling's CMD to escape on their turn, it can be argued that the halfling is resisting the grapple check.
Grapples can be reversed and there is a clear aggressor and defender in a grapple situation. I don't think this bonus applies when the hobbit is the aggressor.
ie... He gets no racial bonus to pin the green dragon or maintain an attack...
Nobody suggests that.
When you attack, they are now Grappled.
Normally, the opponent gets a chance on their own turn to Grapple against you, allowing them to reverse the Grapple OR escape if they want. Both are equivalent options, and are resisted by your resistance to Grapples (Grapple CMD).
Then you get your chance to Pin them.
So... that is aiding the `offensive` aspect by preventing the sequence from being disrupted.
You still need to progress the sequence to Pin, and the ability doesn`t help that.
Grt Grapple let`s you skip the middle step in situations where you still have a Move Action, so as I explained this ability makes less of a difference offensively for Halfling Monks who already were heavily specialized in Grapple. Which is why I don`t think the ability is too disrupting.
...I WOULD like to know if Readied Actions or specially allowed AoO`s ALSO are meant to add their damage to CMD, like happens on AoO`s from un-Improved Grapple/etc. Taking the Feat removes that AoO/dmg->CMD, but would other AoO`s triggered from the attack (not closing movement), i.e. from Come and Get Me, OR Readied Actions also help the defender`s CMD? It seems balanced, and that`s how it works in the case of AoO`s/Readied Actions against Spellcasting, but per RAW it doesn`t seem like the case for Maneuvers. It would be nice to hear RAI for that, and if there might be Errata to make the RAW clear.
If that's how you choose to interpret it. You are suggesting he gets a bonus to maintain an attack.
I think its also fair to interpret the bonus as applying only to resisting an opponents initial attack to grapple the halfling.
"Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect."
During your initial resistance you have the most mobility and control of the situation. This seems like something a clever halfling would be good at.
After being grappled, or starting a grapple, I think its harder to argue the halfling has any particular strategic advantages. To break a grapple the halfling would need CMB so this wouldn't work particularly well. I think the rule is intended to make them more slippery not better aggressors.
If that's how you choose to interpret it. You are suggesting he gets a bonus to maintain an attack.
I think its also fair to interpret the bonus as applying only to resisting an opponents initial attack to grapple the halfling.
Make no mistake, your interpretation is perfectly valid by the rules as well (nobody is saying otherwise to my knowledge). A GM would do well ruling either way.
I just wanted to see what the overriding opinion of the forum was, hence the thread.
If that's how you choose to interpret it. You are suggesting he gets a bonus to maintain an attack.
I think its also fair to interpret the bonus as applying only to resisting an opponents initial attack to grapple the halfling.
Make no mistake, your interpretation is perfectly valid by the rules as well (nobody is saying otherwise to my knowledge). A GM would do well ruling either way.
I just wanted to see what the overriding opinion of the forum was, hence the thread.
I agree there is a penalty to getting the grapple due to size, but they are harder to get out of once you get "locked in". Now I want to try it, but getting my players grappled in the first place will be hard.
The halfling bonus should not be added to attempts of others to escape grapple any more than the dwarf tripping people gets a bonus to trip them. You are not resisting grapple unless the other person is trying to reverse the grapple on you, otherwise they're using a grapple CHECK to escape your grapple.
Obligatory link.
Zo
The halfling bonus should not be added to attempts of others to escape grapple any more than the dwarf tripping people gets a bonus to trip them. You are not resisting grapple unless the other person is trying to reverse the grapple on you, otherwise they're using a grapple CHECK to escape your grapple.
It directly applies to CMD which you have to beat to escape a grapple, and it can't be compared to trip because you don't get a roll to avoid being tripped or stand up from prone.
A more legit comparison would be comparing a bonus to making a grapple check to bonus for tripping since both are offensive in nature and require an attack roll to be activated.
It directly applies to CMD which you have to beat to escape a grapple
Are you resisting a grapple when someone attempts to break your grapple? No. Does the bonus then apply? No. Its to resist a grapple, not against all grapple checks made against you.
Resisting a grapple (where someone tries to beat your CMD IN ORDER TO GRAPPLE YOU) and your CMD against every grapple check are very close, but not synonymous.
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Obligatory link.
Zo
That link is fantastic. I knew the film but couldn't remember the scenes.
Indeed halflings rock as grapplers
Thod
It directly applies to CMD which you have to beat to escape a grapple
Are you resisting a grapple when someone attempts to break your grapple? No. Does the bonus then apply? No. Its to resist a grapple, not against all grapple checks made against you.
Resisting a grapple (where someone tries to beat your CMD IN ORDER TO GRAPPLE YOU) and your CMD against every grapple check are very close, but not synonymous.
Actually since the rules state that you have to beat CMD to escape the grapple or reverse they are the same thing. Even though we stop to roll dice, as far as the game goes the struggle is still ongoing.
And I quote:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can).
I do believe that "succeed" is refering to beating the CMD. By "believe " I mean know.
PS: Darn it I misread the ability to think it was an untyped bonus that was always on, but it only applies when someone is trying to grab the halfing monk. Sorry RD. I will not erase the above portion of the post in case you need the argument for an untyped bonus you find somewhere that does not have special modifiers.
I completely ignored the "when resisting a grapple" part. I think this should have been written as when someone tries to initiate a grapple against the halfing monk.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't the alternative favored class option for a halfling monk only give a +1 to CMD? Just wondering
Matt
Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but doesn't the alternative favored class option for a halfling monk only give a +1 to CMD? Just wondering
Matt
Scratch that I misread it, you're right. Wow that is awesome!
I completely ignored the "when resisting a grapple" part. I think this should have been written as when someone tries to initiate a grapple against the halfing monk.
I am editing the previous post by adding quotations.
I completely ignored the "when resisting a grapple" part. I think this should have been written as "when someone tries to initiate a grapple against the halfing monk"......
Pretty sure that is how it is intended to be.
For instance, here is the 3.5 language on Freedom of movement - clearly showing a difference between resisting a grapple, and escaping one at least. Things have changed, certainly, but the language here is clear.
The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
It really makes very little sense to have a bonus to "resisting a grapple and preventing others from escaping your grapple" - though of course, that's what every other bonus to CMD does.
Pretty sure that is how it is intended to be.
For instance, here is the 3.5 language on Freedom of movement - clearly showing a difference between resisting a grapple, and escaping one at least. Things have changed, certainly, but the language here is clear.
The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.It really makes very little sense to have a bonus to "resisting a grapple and preventing others from escaping your grapple" - though of course, that's what every other bonus to CMD does.
Initiating a grapple should be Aggressors CMB vs Defenders CMD (as it currently is).
Escaping a grapple should be Defenders CMD (or escape artist) vs. Aggressors CMB (the opposite of what it is now).
Reversing a grapple should be Defenders CMB vs Aggressors CMB.
Alternately, the "reverse" maneuver should be an optional free action after successfully escaping a grapple (using existing CMB vs. CMD).
Escaping a grapple should be Defenders CMD (or escape artist) vs. Aggressors CMB (the opposite of what it is now).
wouldn't be this way too easy?
Obligatory link.
Zo
I actually made a fighter kit for 2E very much like this. It may not be completely practical or even realistic, but its hella fun.
wouldn't be this way too easy?
Escaping a grapple should be Defenders CMD (or escape artist) vs. Aggressors CMB (the opposite of what it is now).
I don't think you'd roll d20 and add your CMD. Rather, I think he's suggesting that when you attempt to escape a grapple it "provokes" a CMB roll from the grappler. If it fails, you escape.
Midget wrestlers have always been popular. Perhaps this is the reason.
I don't think you'd roll d20 and add your CMD. Rather, I think he's suggesting that when you attempt to escape a grapple it "provokes" a CMB roll from the grappler. If it fails, you escape.wouldn't be this way too easy?
Escaping a grapple should be Defenders CMD (or escape artist) vs. Aggressors CMB (the opposite of what it is now).
Yeah, thanks Zappo, that's what I meant. Sorry. Should have been clearer.
And, thanks for the kind words, Stubs. Let me know if they work out for you.
It just occurred to me that human fighters can ALSO get huge bonuses to their CMDs versus grapples.
Do NOT mess with Bob. You will not escape his sleeper hold.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It just occurred to me that human fighters can ALSO get huge bonuses to their CMDs versus grapples.
The fighter is unlimited like the Halfling ("resisting") so better in every way.
BTW, I don't agree "Resisting" is the same as "resisting their CMB vs my CMD."
I believe it is clear that resisting is "t-rex tries grapples halfling" only and halfling is resisting being initially grappled.
