Is anyone including the arcana that allows you to reroll a failed concentraion check with a +4 bonus in their calculations?
I think you can choose it at 3rd level iirc.
It's difficult to calculate, but I'm sure it's possible.
I don't think the analysis here is showing that the spell combat mechanic is bad *all* the time. On average, it's seems pretty balanced after level 7. The question is, how is it a good idea at level 2? It seems in most cases between level 2 and 5 that it would be a negative to use the ability at all. . .
The main reason I'm stressing level 2 through 7 is that those levels receive *heavy playtime* with most players/groups. If an ability needs to be balanced and effective between any level range, 2-7 would be it.
As for getting a 15 in a 15 point buy, that is really trivial, even with a high priority on str.
str 16 (14+2)
dex 12
con 12
int 15
wis 10
cha 9
You can also dump wisdom and charisma more to get out some more con and dex. Your stat priority is exactly the same as a melee...
I'd go with lower int and higher Str and boost you Dex to 13 for dodge. Chances are at low levels you will be fighting with out any spells left so a High Str will keep you relevant in the fights. Having 12 Int and applying you 4,8,12, and 16 level stat boost gets you the right Int to cast you highest spell level all the way to 6 at 16th level.
Doing this means at 2nd you can use Spell Combat with Defensive Casting check at +1 for 16 or better, either get Combat casting and Focused mind or forget using that ability at 2nd. If you do have that feat and trait you are on 10 or better. Then striking with +1 to hit and +4 to damage. Not bad and when you run out of spells you can still fight decently.
I may be alone in this, but I actually consider the penalty to attacks as being the overly punishing one. In my mind, if one of the two -spellcasting and sword-swinging- should be the more difficult, it should be the casting. Yet the Magus, who, as Heaven's Agent mentioned, is supposed to be trained exactly for this form of combat, gets hit with a whopping -4 to attacks when he uses his signature ability.
Still, I may not be thinking things through. Ah, well... :-)
Is anyone including the arcana that allows you to reroll a failed concentraion check with a +4 bonus in their calculations?
I think you can choose it at 3rd level iirc.
It's difficult to calculate, but I'm sure it's possible.
I don't think the analysis here is showing that the spell combat mechanic is bad *all* the time. On average, it's seems pretty balanced after level 7. The question is, how is it a good idea at level 2? It seems in most cases between level 2 and 5 that it would be a negative to use the ability at all. . .
The main reason I'm stressing level 2 through 7 is that those levels receive *heavy playtime* with most players/groups. If an ability needs to be balanced and effective between any level range, 2-7 would be it.
If you GM puts caster in positions where they have to make concentration checks on a semi-regular basis, spell combat is awesome. You would be making the concentration checks anyway, so you get an attack in exchange for a minor penalty. If he is not, I think he is doing the other players a disservice.
I may be alone in this, but I actually consider the penalty to attacks as being the overly punishing one. In my mind, if one of the two -spellcasting and sword-swinging- should be the more difficult, it should be the casting. Yet the Magus, who, as Heaven's Agent mentioned, is supposed to be trained exactly for this form of combat gets hit with a whopping -4 to attacks when he uses his signature ability.
Still, I may not be thinking things through. Ah, well... :-)
I thought the same thing. Then I flipped my perspective. Instead of thinking about it as an attack with a spell added, I thought about it as a spell with an attack added. Once I did that, I switched sides and now think the penalties are properly ballanced.
My moring sleep posting errors aside.....
My primary thought to fix the problem is not making concentration more reliable at 2-7 but to let the Magus keep spells he botches the rolls on. If you did not lose the spell you are casting would you be more likely to use Spell Combat?
My conjecture is that the loss of actions (failed spell or missed attacks) are enough of a penalty to the Magus. A Magus could hit with just a weapon (decent change of success), cast a spell (100% success, not counting saves), or try to do both at once and badly at low levels. This is why when I play a Magus this Saturday in a live game I'll be looking to spam Cantrips with Spell Combat.
At higher level play the concentration check is going to basically be a sure thing with no loss of the spell. Instead of trying to fix Concentration shift the penalty. Losing just an action or half of an action instead of one use of a very limited resource. It's like the old Paladin Smite or any of a number old 3.5 "miss and it's gone" systems.
My primary thought to fix the problem is not making concentration more reliable at 2-7 but to let the Magus keep spells he botches the rolls on. If you did not lose the spell you are casting would you be more likely to use Spell Combat?
That's an interesting thought right there.
My biggest concern is that right now one might hesitate to use spell combat in a fight against an adventure's big bad, for fear of wasting the ability itself in a situation where it's even less likely to work than normal. If a botched concentration check doesn't burn the spell, however, using the ability becomes a lot more appealing; sure, your spell might fizzle, but you can always try again on the next turn. And it becomes a non-issue at higher levels, when such a character would be optimized so that the concentration check becomes trivial.
It would likely need to be clarified that this only occurs when a character fails a concentration check made as a result of spell combat; the possibility for spells to be lost as a result of taking damage and the like should remain. The idea holds the potential to be a really unique mechanic that helps the magus stand apart from other casters. I like it.
What if instead of a penalty to attack and a high concentration for spell combat. The Magus takes a hit to his AC like rage or cleave. The magus could then reduce the AC penalty as he gains levels.
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When the first round is suprise phantasmal killer x18 from 18 greater invised mirror imaged illusionists you know your in trouble.
o-0?
You do know that mirror images don't actually cast duplicate spells, right? Those 3 illusionists would only create 3 phantasmal killers, regardless of how many mirror images they have active?
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My primary thought to fix the problem is not making concentration more reliable at 2-7 but to let the Magus keep spells he botches the rolls on. If you did not lose the spell you are casting would you be more likely to use Spell Combat?
If a botched concentration check doesn't burn the spell, ...using the ability becomes a lot more appealing; sure, your spell might fizzle, but you can always try again on the next turn. And it becomes a non-issue at higher levels, when such a character would be optimized so that the concentration check becomes trivial.
It would likely need to be clarified that this only occurs when a character fails a concentration check made as a result of spell combat; the possibility for spells to be lost as a result of taking damage and the like should remain. The idea holds the potential to be a really unique mechanic that helps the magus stand apart from other casters. I like it.
As a prepared caster, allow them to start the day with one of their touch spells embedded in their weapon.
The weapon can hold one such charge at a time .
More charges can be added to replace expended charges via a short ritual .
During combat, any time a hit is scored, the Magus can attempt a Concentration check , which may start at a penalty, or not ; if successful, one of the spell-charges is transmitted through the weapon as part of the same hit. But the important distinction is that, if this Concentration check is unsuccessful, the spell-charge is NOT wasted.
Effectively, the weapon becomes a temporary touch-wand, and the Concentration check is not there to 'gather the magical energy in the caster's mind', since the spell has already been cast, thus cannot be disrupted or lost. The Concentration check is rather a caster-level check, to see if the Magus is quick enough to seize the initiative, caused by the opening in the opponent's defences.
Picture it as impaling someone with a bayonet, then quickly changing your grip to pull the trigger of the gun. If you can, then you get a bonus action, but if you can't, the gun does not empty itself; the bullet is still under the hammer, not dissipated into the ether.
That simple change will serve to make the ability more reliable, without making it a guaranteed success. You will get the extra bang for your buck, at some point during the day, but you can't predict when.
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When the first round is suprise phantasmal killer x18 from 18 greater invised mirror imaged illusionists you know your in trouble.o-0?
You do know that mirror images don't actually cast duplicate spells, right? Those 3 illusionists would only create 3 phantasmal killers, regardless of how many mirror images they have active?
Nope there were 18 9th and 10th level Illusionists in one encounter.....
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Nope there were 18 9th and 10th level Illusionists in one encounter.....Aah; I thought you'd mis-spelled 1 8th, 9th and 10th.
Jeepers!
Yeah thier strategy was simple Each one casts the same spell until the person targeted was dead....
It was almost as entertaining as her teenage mutant ninja turtle harpy monks that chain stunned us.
Or the Solid Fog on party Cloudkill behind us stinking cloud in front and walls of stone to the right and left....
Or the Giants who use polearms....
Why not just not have a penalty at all? The normal rules on casting in combat apply will have them needing to deal with concentration checks as it is.-James
That's every caster.
The Magus isn't just casting in melee he also gets to make a full attack. How about reversing the penalty the level two no penalty, with ever attack after the first the penalty increases. Inessence you trade attacks per round for a greater chance to cast and swing.
Why does the Magus have to have an 18 str? To keep his damage up is a weak reason. Fighters use weapons, feats and magic, not just stat. If the class does not work one way, TRY SOMETHING ELSE!
More than one suggestion has been offered. But still all anyone can see is spell combat. It's the Magus primary class feature is like saying sneak att is a rogues. Yes the class does have spell combat, it also has other abilities to like spells and arcana. Rogues have skills. Clerics heal. Every class has two major abilities.
The Magus is a third arm a great idea on paper but in the way on you back.
Mr. Fishy is sorry that the Magus isn't the Gish Messiah.
heh my thread not good enough for you ? ;)
Wouldn't the correct term here be "Mathfinder"?
I thought the same thing. Then I flipped my perspective. Instead of thinking about it as an attack with a spell added, I thought about it as a spell with an attack added. Once I did that, I switched sides and now think the penalties are properly ballanced.Considering that you only have a handful of spells at low levels this might be the better way of thinking.
However, the return on this extra melee attack isn't all that much when compared to the chance of losing the spell.
At low levels many times its better to risk the AOO than to cast defensively. Here not only are you casting defensively, but at a penalty. What's the gain? A single attack at -4 to hit...
I think this ability compares to no ability at all.
When you factor in the small number of spells per day I think that spell combat at low levels is a fail. This is not a sorcerer casting here, but rather a bard.
Bards typically have other actions in combat at low levels (i.e. bard song) that mitigates their small number of slots.
The magus has a way to cast every round, but its a very poor method and will not work well for them unless you can roll aberrantly well.
-James
Yes, my reccomendation for it is to make it require concentration checks as a normal spell, but any checks made are at -2.
Rogues have skills.
Everyone has skills.
Every class has two major abilities.
Yeah, Magus has Spell Combat and Spell Strike.
And those are the first things it gets.
+1I would say that just as Eschew Materials was given as a free feat to sorcerers, Combat Casting makes sense as a freebie that should be tossed to Magi.oh good someone who agree's been sayin it all day
Completely disagree. It obviously voids the entire point of Spell Combat as written. Painting a picture of rolling plains on a wall doesn't make it not a wall.
Rogues have skills.Everyone has skills.
Every class has two major abilities.Yeah, Magus has Spell Combat and Spell Strike.
And those are the first things it gets.
True everyone has skills, rogues just get more of them. Hardly what I'd call a big power. Rouges get other things though. Rogue Talents and Sneak Attacks. That matches Magic Arcana and Spell Combat. The rogue also gets lots of other abilities like evasion, uncanny dodge, trap finding, and trap sense. The Magus gets casting armor and combat feats. Matches up pretty good.
The only issue I see with spell combat is that at 2nd level you will be unlikely to use it.
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I think there is a simple fix to spell combat actually: If you fail your concentration check you don't take the -4 to your attack. So if you want to attack and cast a spell make your Concentration check if it succeeds proceed as now (i.e. cast spell or attack) if you fail you lose the spell but you can still attack and not at the -4.
New Percentages:
13.65% both work
23.35% attack only
31.85% spell only
31.15% neither work
sorry, a little late but I would like to point something out..
Ahem..."he can make all of
his attacks with his melee
weapon at a –4 penalty"
does not say anything about the touch attack made, presumably with your off hand, getting a -4.
also
"A magus
can choose to cast the spell first
or make the weapon attacks
first"
umm... does that mean that a magus could do this
->cast touch spell with 1-round duration
->make touch attack with spell
->darn i failed to hit
->attack
-> i hit with my attack
-> use spellstrike to use the spell that is still charged for the round
edit->
yea you can page 185 "touch spells in combat"
"in the same round that you cast the spell you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action"
I think there is a simple fix to spell combat actually: If you fail your concentration check you don't take the -4 to your attack. So if you want to attack and cast a spell make your Concentration check if it succeeds proceed as now (i.e. cast spell or attack) if you fail you lose the spell but you can still attack and not at the -4.
New Percentages:
13.65% both work
23.35% attack only
31.85% spell only
31.15% neither worksorry, a little late but I would like to point something out..
Ahem...
"he can make all of
his attacks with his melee
weapon at a –4 penalty"
does not say anything about the touch attack made, presumably with your off hand, getting a -4.
also
"A magus
can choose to cast the spell first
or make the weapon attacks
first"
umm... does that mean that a magus could do this
->cast touch spell with 1-round duration
->make touch attack with spell
->darn i failed to hit
->attack
-> i hit with my attack
-> use spellstrike to use the spell that is still charged for the roundedit->
yea you can page 185 "touch spells in combat"
"in the same round that you cast the spell you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action"
The most powerful part of this ability is that it can be used with any spell, not just touch spells. Haste, Fireball, obscurring mist, pick your fancy. His calculations are for generic spell, not for touch attacks. But yes, if you are using a touch attack spell then what you say is true.
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The most powerful part of this ability is that it can be used with any spell, not just touch spells. Haste, Fireball, obscurring mist, pick your fancy. His calculations are for generic spell, not for touch attacks. But yes, if you are using a touch attack spell then what you say is true.I think there is a simple fix to spell combat actually: If you fail your concentration check you don't take the -4 to your attack. So if you want to attack and cast a spell make your Concentration check if it succeeds proceed as now (i.e. cast spell or attack) if you fail you lose the spell but you can still attack and not at the -4.
New Percentages:
13.65% both work
23.35% attack only
31.85% spell only
31.15% neither worksorry, a little late but I would like to point something out..
Ahem...
"he can make all of
his attacks with his melee
weapon at a –4 penalty"
does not say anything about the touch attack made, presumably with your off hand, getting a -4.
also
"A magus
can choose to cast the spell first
or make the weapon attacks
first"
umm... does that mean that a magus could do this
->cast touch spell with 1-round duration
->make touch attack with spell
->darn i failed to hit
->attack
-> i hit with my attack
-> use spellstrike to use the spell that is still charged for the roundedit->
yea you can page 185 "touch spells in combat"
"in the same round that you cast the spell you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action"
actually He specifically said "For this case I will assume scorching ray, so that is ranged touch and we will give the opponent a touch AC of 12. So at a +5 ranged touch you miss on a 6 or lower."
when the +9 to hit, and without actual stats i have to assume for both touch and weapon... though that may be too much but with w-focus touch and other things it could work out..* does some quick crude math*
i think....
probably only +7 on both, but even then the chance increases by 10% for the touch.