I don't have time to do so fully just yet, but I plan to use this thread to make a full level-by-level comparison of Magus vs an aspiring (and then later actualised) Eldritch Knight. I'll assume they have the same ability scores and compare at each level based on their attacks, saves, HP, spells, and specials (the skills are slight advantage Eldritch Knight but probably not a big enough deal to track). I will be using the more standard Fighter/Wizard Eldritch Knight as an easier comparison, rather than the Paladin/Sorcerer Eldritch Knight (even though the Charisma synergy there can be quite powerful).
We'll call the Eldritch Knight 'Elle' and the Magus 'Maggie'.
Level 1 (Elle takes it in Wizard)--
Attacks: Elle and Maggie have the same attack bonus and number of attacks. It's notable that Elle is probably using significantly worse weapons at this point unless they are elves.
Saves: Maggie has a better Fort save, they tie in Will.
HP: Maggie has 2 more HP than Elle.
Spells: Ignoring school specialisation, they have the same number of spells. Elle has more options, but Maggie has many of the clear highlights, including a spell likely to fill most of both their plates at this level, Colour Spray.
Specials: Maggie can cast in Light Armour, which gives her substantially better AC unless Elle spends a spell slot to remedy that. She also gets Spellstrike, which is a terrible deal right now but we should keep in mind for later. Elle gets specialisation, which gives her a minor ability that varies from terrible to good and usually gives her back an extra spell (and if she didn't pick the spell, her build means she's going to hit hard with Hand of the Apprentice). She also gets a Familiar or Bonded Item, which either gives a versatile extra spell or gives several other useful benefits.
Is There a Winner?: I think this level favours Elle slightly. However, Maggie still looks like she can kick some major ass at this level and look good doing it, and she's more survivable than Elle, plus she's about to get her most important class ability next level, and Elle is not.
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Level 2 (Elle goes Wizard again)--
Attacks: Elle enjoys the moment while she can, as this is the last level where she will match Maggie's attack for a long while
Saves: Maggie's advantage in Fortitude increases by 1 to a total of 3.
HP: Maggie gains another HP on average over Elle and now is up by 3.
Spells: Ignoring specials, they are still the same as far as spells, and this time it is Maggie who enjoys the moment while she can.
Specials: Elle gains nothing. Maggie can now (with difficulty due to a lot of penalties) cast a spell while making a full attack with a hand free. This is a gain for her in action economy, but how big?
This is still a great ability, though, and a particularly well-designed one for the following reason. These calculations are for a Magus in a vacuum, and it gets much much better the more your allies buff you up and aid you, so it encourages teamwork, rather than the attitude of "I can fight and have magic powers so why do I need any of you again?" that you can occasionally see in certain effective hybrid builds (like some of the 3.5 Psychic Warrior builds).
Is There a Winner?: I think Maggie's gains in all categories, and particularly her Spell Combat (when used in tandem with good teamwork) give her the edge.
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Level 3 (Elle goes Wizard yet again)--
Attacks: Maggie takes an edge in attacks and is now at +1
Saves: Elle catches up by 1 in Fortitude.
HP: Another 1 for Maggie, who is now 4 ahead.
Spells: Maggie gets a 1st more than Elle, but Elle gets 2nd-level spells--not just the base 1 but also bonus spells and probably a specialisation bonus as well.
Specials: Elle gets nothing once again. Maggie gets a Magus Arcana. Of the ones you can get at level 3, nothing that's amazing yet (later you can get some significant benefits out of the ones based on spell level), but a Familiar is very good, and the Sudden Silent or Still can get you out of a jam.
Is There a Winner?: Once again, it's close, but I think Elle's 2nd level spells give her the clear edge for the moment.
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Level 4 (Elle goes Wizard again)--
Attacks: Maggie gains no more lead and is still 1 ahead
Saves: Maggie gets back to a lead of 3 in Fortitude
HP: Another 1 for Maggie, who is now 5 ahead.
Spells: Elle catches up in 1st level and gains another 2nd level while Maggie gains 2nd level spells herself. Maggie is not nearly as versatile in her spell list as Elle, but she hits a lot of highlights like Glitterdust and Invisibility.
Specials: Elle gets nothing again. Maggie gains a solid ability to enhance her weapon--she probably already has a +1 weapon, so she will probably use this to gain 1d6 energy damage with her melee attacks all day long, which is a solid benefit.
Is There a Winner?: By getting a piece of the 2nd-level spell pie and with her continuing advantage in better specials, Maggie has the advantage now.
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Level 5 (Elle goes Wizard for the last time)--
Attacks: Maggie and Elle both gain no attack bonus this level
Saves: No saves either
HP: Another 1 for Maggie, who is now up to 6 ahead.
Spells: Elle gets 3rd level spells, Maggie catches up on 2nd and goes ahead in 1st.
Specials: Both gain a bonus feat, although Maggie has more choices.
Is There a Winner?: Elle is still only down by 1 in attack bonus compared to Maggie, and 3rd level spells are gamechangers. I give this one to Elle.
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Level 6 (Elle goes Fighter)--
Attacks: Maggie is still 1 higher than Elle
Saves: Elle gets 2 Fort, but Maggie gets 1 of each and is now ahead by 1 in all saves
HP: This level is a wash unless they are half-elves, since Fighter is not Elle's Favoured Class (I will assume HP as a Favoured Class Bonus)
Spells: Elle obviously gets none. Maggie gains a 0th and 2nd and has now essentially cancelled out Elle's specialisation bonus in all levels that she has.
Specials: Elle gets another bonus feat and now finally has all those proficiencies Maggie had (and a few more). Maggie probably gets the Sudden Empower arcana so that she can do crazy things with Evocation next level (12d6 Scorching Ray or 10.5d6 Fireball, frex).
Is There a Winner?: This is hard. Maggie has a lot of things going for her, but she's still going up against Elle's 3rd-level spells. I'll call it a draw because it's very close.
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Level 7 (Elle actually takes a level in Eldritch Knight)
Attacks: Maggie still has the lead by +1
Saves: Maggie gets nothing, Elle gets a Fort and is now fully caught up in Fort but behind by 1 in the other 2.
HP: Equal again. In fact, Maggie's lead will remain at 6 until at least level 17, so I'm dropping it for now.
Spells: Elle doesn't get spells this level either. Maggie gets a 3rd level slot, so she is barely behind Elle at all on spells and isn't saddled with the limitations of specialisation, though she has fewer spells on her list.
Specials: Elle gets another feat (and can qualify for Fighter feats using EK), but Maggie gains Medium Armour Proficiency and the ability to cast in Medium Armour. Even if Elle has used some of her feat superiority to pick up Arcane Armour Training, Maggie still has the option for higher AC if she's willing to lose some manoeuvrability.
Is There a Winner?: I feel bad for Elle because this is well known as one of the worst two levels in the game for Eldritch Knight, but it's a clear advantage for Maggie.
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Level 8 (Elle continues in Eldritch Knight)--
Attacks: Maggie is still ahead by +1, and this level, that means it nets her an iterative that Elle doesn't have.
Saves: Elle gets Ref and Will and Maggie gets Fort and Will. Maggie is now ahead in Fort and Will by 1.
Spells: Maggie and Elle both get a 2nd and a 3rd, so it stays the same.
Specials: Nothing for Elle, but Maggie gets a biggie--Improved Spell Combat. When we do our two round comparison for Maggie from the spoiler block above, this essentially gives her 10% more spell cast and weapon hit per round and makes Improved Spell Combat the better choice every time presuming that the battle is important enough to warrant using two spell slots.
Is There a Winner?: Maggie is even more ahead.
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Level 9 (Elle in EK until further notice)--
Attacks: Elle catches up to Maggie on attacks now and will not fall behind again ever.
Saves: Maggie gets Ref and is now ahead by 1 in all saves.
Spells: Elle gets 4th level spells and Maggie catches up to Elle in 3rd-level spells per day, even with specialisation.
Specials: Nothing for Elle, but Maggie probably gains the ability to sacrifice a spell for a dispelling strike or a quick self-only Haste.
Is There a Winner?: Elle is on much better footing now. Can her 4th-level spells cancel out Maggie's special ability superiority? I'd say not quite, now that Maggie has that Improved Spell Combat from last level.
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Level 10--
Attacks: They're still equal.
Saves: Maggie gets Fort and Will and is now ahead by 2 in those, and 1 in Ref
Spells: Now Maggie gets 4th-level spells. Elle spends the level regaining her advantage in 3rd-level spells and getting another 4th.
Specials: The least-exciting special in a while for Maggie, at least for the level you get it, she can now take Fighter feats as if she were a Fighter of the same level that Elle currently counts as thanks to EK. Elle will pull ahead indefinitely in that race starting next level, and since Maggie doesn't get a feat this level, this is useless for a level (incidentally, she will be getting two feats next level).
Is There a Winner?: Maggie now has 4th-level spells, so despite a relatively lacklustre level for specials, she has the lead.
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I'll do the second 10 levels later when I get a chance--feel free to let me know what you think.
Why did Elle take Wizard for the first level and not Fighter? Fighter would give them higher BAB and more HP at first level. They would lose nothing for not taking Wizard until 2nd level.
Why did Elle take Wizard for the first level and not Fighter? Fighter would give them higher BAB and more HP at first level. They would lose nothing for not taking Wizard until 2nd level.
The choice you've suggested nets Elle 1 more HP over the course of her career and gets her early access to better weapons. By level 6, this is the best choice, but at level 3, Wizard3 is vastly better than Fighter1/Wizard2 (also Wizard5 is much better than Wizard4/Fighter1), and I think an organic character is going to want to be more effective along the way.
That said, in my RotRL campaign, the party Eldritch Knight went Wizard1 then Fighter1, so what do I know, eh? He was an Elf Generalist and specialised in Hand of the Apprentice with Longsword at low levels, so he really really needed Precise Shot.
Why did Elle take Wizard for the first level and not Fighter? Fighter would give them higher BAB and more HP at first level. They would lose nothing for not taking Wizard until 2nd level.
I agree with this whenever I go eldritch knight I always take the fighter level early. for the extra hp, the higher attack, and the better weapons. also there is the bonus feat.
Why did Elle take Wizard for the first level and not Fighter? Fighter would give them higher BAB and more HP at first level. They would lose nothing for not taking Wizard until 2nd level.I agree with this whenever I go eldritch knight I always take the fighter level early. for the extra hp, the higher attack, and the better weapons. also there is the bonus feat.
Without putting them up there side by side in detail, I would give Maggie the edge at every level from 1 to 5 if Elle took level 1 in Fighter, whereas Elle managed to eke out an advantage at some of those levels by starting with Wizard.
The good news is that once we get to level 6, it's the same either way except the Elle using the other method has 1 more HP, so for any ordering of the build, we can definitely agree on the side-by-side analysis starting there.
Good post, they seem even on the most played levels of the game, which is nice!
OK, managed to get a break and finish this off.
Before I continue, it's worth noting that Elle can have a two-handed weapon or a light shield and Maggie cannot, as I forgot to mention that earlier. Now for the final levels:
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Level 11--
Attacks: Still equal.
Saves: Maggie gets nothing, so Elle catches up by 1 in all categories and is now behind by 1 in only Fort and Will
Spells: Elle gets 5th-level spells, Maggie catches up on 3rd and makes ground on 4th.
Specials: They both get a bonus feat, though Maggie has more choices for where to spend it.
Is There a Winner?: It's another close one. I'm really liking where Magus sits in the balance side! Teleport and its ilk are big winners for Elle, but I think Maggie pulls it off again on the strength of her specials.
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Level 12--
Attacks: Still equal, though not for long.
Saves: Maggie gets everything, Elle gets nothing, and we're right back at level 10 with advantage Maggie in everything.
Spells: Elle still has 5th-level spells, and Maggie doesn't--they keep pace with 4th-level spells.
Specials: Nothing for Elle. Maggie probably picks up what she didn't get at 9 for her arcana or maybe Sudden Maximise.
Is There a Winner?: Not too much has changed, and so I think Maggie's still ahead.
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Level 13--
Attacks: Elle is now ahead by 1!
Saves: Elle catches up by 1 in Fort but is still behind by 1 in Fort and Ref, 2 in Will
Spells: Maggie gets 5th-level spells (and otherwise her spells per day stand still)! But then, Elle gets 6th-level spells and another 3rd.
Specials: Nothing for Elle again. Maggie gets the ability to use all her magic in Heavy Armour, but she probably doesn't want to do that by this point, though the proficiency helps if she wants to swap up her current armour for Mithral Full Plate.
Is There a Winner?: Elle's attack bonus advantage and 6th level spells make her a real contender, so it may be a draw, but I think Maggie's just barely still ahead.
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Level 14--
Attacks: Elle is still ahead by 1, and this earns her an iterative that Maggie doesn't have.
Saves: Maggie gets Fort and Will, Elle gets Reflex and Will, Maggie is now ahead by 2 in Fort and Will
Spells: Maggie gets a 4th and a 5th, Elle gets a 5th and a 6th.
Specials: Nothing for Elle. Maggie now has no penalty on attack rolls with Spell Combat, meaning that she nows gets a spell completely free with every full attack.
Is There a Winner?: Maggie is now off the razor's edge and is ahead by a bit more. She's still a spell level behind though.
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Level 15--
Attacks: Elle is still ahead by 1
Saves: Maggie gets Ref, Elle gets Fort, so Elle is behind by 1 in Fort and Ref, 2 in Will
Spells: Another 5th and 3rd for Maggie, but Elle picks up a 4th and then gets 7th-level spells. That's a biggie for Elle, as she finally has a 2 spell-level advantage.
Specials: Maggie attempts to recover from the spells section by gaining the extremely powerful ability to either once a day instantly quicken a spell or else at will sacrifice spells to turn hostile spells back on their caster. Elle gets a bonus feat, which isn't really as good as that.
Is There a Winner?: Maggie has put up one hell of a fight with amazing specials all the way, but Elle has spells a full two levels higher and 1 better BAB, so advantage Elle.
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Level 16 (Elle capstones Eldritch Knight)--
Attacks: Elle remains ahead by 1
Saves: Nothing for Elle, Fort and Will for Maggie, so Maggie is ahead by 1/2/3 in Ref/Fort/Will
Spells: Maggie gets 6th-level spells now. Her ultimate spells. As a side note, it's worth noting that I would have mentioned if there were any major notable early entries for Maggie--there are not and have not been. Elle gets a 6th and a 7th
Specials: Maggie now gets to whack threatened casters after their spells finish (even if she has already turned the spell back at the caster!). However, as she has capstoned Eldritch Knight, Elle can cast a free spell on any round that she crits as long as she saves her Swift Action for that purpose. With the right build, that will probably be most rounds that she makes a full attack, but it's still not as good as Maggie's Spell Combat, both in consistency, not using up the Swift action, and target choice (Elle must include the enemy she struck as a target or in the area of the spell).
Is There a Winner?: Maggie gains back some ground here, but Elle's capstone, assuming she uses those bonus feats to get the best use of it, allows her to retain the edge.
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Level 17 (Elle takes Wizard)--
Attacks: Elle's advantage actually gains to +2 here despite taking Wizard, as Wizard was about to be the favourable 6th level.
Saves: Elle gets everything and is now only 1/2 behind on Fort and Will.
HP: Maggie gets another +1 and is now 7 ahead of Elle.
Spells: Elle now has 8th-level spells, Maggie gets another 5th and 6th.
Specials: Elle may get something here if she is an Abjurer. Maggie gets another bonus feat.
Is There a Winner?: Elle is clearly still ahead here and is at her absolute peak at combat vs Maggie, an edge that will diminish unless she takes all the other levels in Fighter.
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Level 18 (Elle takes Wizard)--
Attacks: Elle's advantage is down to 1.
Saves: Nothing for Elle, but everything for Maggie means its back to 1/2/3 edge for Maggie.
HP: Maggie's advantage is now up to 8
Spells: Maggie gets 4th and 6th, Elle gets 7th and 8th.
Specials: Elle gets nothing, and Maggie probably picks up the one she didn't get at 15.
Is There a Winner?: Elle's advantage has lessened, but I think she's still ahead of Maggie for now.
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Level 19 (Elle takes Wizard)--
Attacks: Elle is still ahead by 1.
Saves: Will for Elle, nothing for Maggie, so 1/2/2 edge for Maggie in Ref/Fort/Will
HP: Maggie's advantage is now up to 9.
Spells: Maggie gets 5th and 6th, but Elle gets a 6th and also her 9th level spells!
Specials: Elle actually gets a Wizard level 8 special here unless she's an Abjurer. Maggie gets Weapon Call, which is a really cool and flavourful ability that I can see used in a variety of sneaky tactics to get free Teleports, though the risk is great. Fortunately you don't care about being separated from your Bonded Weapon as much at this level because the Concentration checks are trivial.
Is There a Winner?: Elle manages to sneak in some 9th-level spells while still having the attack bonus edge. Maggie's lead in specials is substantial, but the advantage is Elle's.
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Level 20 (Elle1 takes Wizard, or Elle2 takes Fighter)--
Attacks: Elle1 loses her lead to Maggie, whereas Elle2 retains her advantage of +1
Saves: Elle1 gains Fort and Ref, Elle2 only gains Fort, and Maggie gains Fort and Will. So Elle1 actually manages to be even with Maggie on Ref in the end.
HP: Maggie's advantage is up to 10 against Elle1, still 9 against Elle2
Spells: Maggie gets a 6th. Elle1 gets a 7th and a 9th. Elle2 gets none.
Specials: Maggie gets the rather lacklustre capstone True Magus. Elle1 gets nothing. Elle2 gets a feat.
Is There a Winner?: I think both Elles still have a slight edge here, but it's worth pointing out that where these two characters were pretty similar at lower levels and the comparison was ore direct, they've really branched out and each become their own at this point, and both are awesome at their own thing. Both have big edges in certain areas. In other words, it looks like the real win goes to Paizo for giving us more choices without raising the bar too high on power level.
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Final analysis: Magus looks well-balanced to me with these paper comparisons, so let's playtest it and find ways to make it cooler and more fun to play!
Can her 4th-level spells cancel out Maggie's special ability superiority?
Yes. Look at the options 4th level spell casting offers:
Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility.
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Seems to me the big advantage the Magus has is the ability to cast and fight at the same time. They could actually cast 2 spells and get a full attack action in a round at higher levels. The cost of course is the loss of 7-9th level spells which is pretty steep at higher levels.
If being in combat is essential then seems the Magus has the edge.
Rogue - Did you take favored class bonuses into account? Seems to me that the Magus' hit point edge would be much higher with FC bonus added.
EDIT: OIC... the EK gets more HP due to dice which means they have HP parity for those levels.
Seems to me the big advantage the Magus has is the ability to cast and fight at the same time. They could actually cast 2 spells and get a full attack action in a round at higher levels. The cost of course is the loss of 7-9th level spells which is pretty steep at higher levels.
If being in combat is essential then seems the Magus has the edge.
Rogue - Did you take favored class bonuses into account? Seems to me that the Magus' hit point edge would be much higher with FC bonus added.
Yes I did--I note this as soon as Elle stops taking her Favoured Class. The thing to remember is that Magus is d8 and Elle's multiclasses are all d10, so she gets 1 fewer hit point at Wizard levels (or 2 at level 1) and the same number of hit points on her non-Wizard levels (d10 hit dice, but loses FC bonus).
Can her 4th-level spells cancel out Maggie's special ability superiority?Yes. Look at the options 4th level spell casting offers:
Stoneskin, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Fire Shield, Ice Storm, Wall of Fire, Greater Invisibility.
I was thinking of the first three in particular (not a big fan of Greater Invisibility), and I still think Maggie has the edge because of her ability to full attack and get off a spell with little penalty to either by this point.
Unless of course Ellie is half elf then she can take two Favored Classes Wizard and Fighter.
I think I included that, though it barely helps her at all with Elle's build. O woe that a PrC cannot be selected as a Favoured Class!
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One thing not taken in to effect is the difference in caster level between the Magus and the Eldrich Knight. There is a two level difference in CL between the two at 20th level, which means that the Magus has a more resistance to having their buffs dispelled and is capable of doing more damage with their damaging spells.
One thing not taken in to effect is the difference in caster level between the Magus and the Eldrich Knight. There is a six level difference in CL between the two at 20th level, which means that the Magus has a lot more resistance to having their buffs dispelled and is capable of doing more damage with their damaging spells.
Why is there a six level difference? Unless you went for the Elle2 build, Elle should be only 2 levels behind, a difference that can be accounted for by the Magical Knack trait.
One thing not taken in to effect is the difference in caster level between the Magus and the Eldrich Knight. There is a two level difference in CL between the two at 20th level, which means that the Magus has a more resistance to having their buffs dispelled and is capable of doing more damage with their damaging spells.
Buffs dispelled is a problem, of course a ring of counterspelling helps with that. Damage spell caster level is of much less concern as a good fighter-mage uses damage spells as a secondary option.
You left out one enormous thing at 1st level: Elle has Scribe Scroll. This allows her, for a nominal fee, to have a full deck of backup and utility magic without impacting her spells per day. I wonder how frequently this wizard perk is overlooked?
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One thing not taken in to effect is the difference in caster level between the Magus and the Eldrich Knight. There is a six level difference in CL between the two at 20th level, which means that the Magus has a lot more resistance to having their buffs dispelled and is capable of doing more damage with their damaging spells.Why is there a six level difference? Unless you went for the Elle2 build, Elle should be only 2 levels behind, a difference that can be accounted for by the Magical Knack trait.
I thought I edited before anyone could notice...it is only a two level difference...for some reason I assumed it was a Ftr5/Wiz5/EldKn10 build which would have been a 6 level difference.
Wow, nice breakdown.
Maybe someone could do the same with the Arcane Duelist bard. I will not have time until the weekend to crunch numbers, so feel free to do it ;-) If, by then nobody did it, I'll try to find the time.
It really isn't fair to compare spell lists until we actually have the full one for the magus available for viewing.
I think your severly underestimating higher level spells and over-estimating the usefulness of the magus spell list.
Basically, Spell Combat is just very useful. If anything, I have a big soft spot for casters and wanted to make sure I didn't bias myself too much in favour of the higher spell levels, but any time that Elle had two spell levels more than Maggie, she always won out (and one spell level at low levels did that for Elle too). I think that Spell Combat (and the other specials, but mainly spell combat) is really worth it. This does depend though--if Elle basically only took EK to be a survivable mage, so for the extra hit points and armour proficiencies and maybe to hit more often with ranged touch spells, and she never plans to use physical attacks, she isn't going to be as envious of Maggie's specials. Assuming the EK is planning on mixing it up with both physical attacks and magic, the fact that the Magus is able to do both in the same round (and without even using her Swift action on it) is pretty substantial at higher levels when the penalty is lessened.
Let's assume that a typical hybrid character wants to attack and cast spells roughly equally, and they have a chance to hit with the first iterative equal to x%. At any level starting at around 8 (let's pick 10 for instance, since 8 sucks for EK), the Magus is getting (x-10)% and (x-35%) of an attack, plus nearly 100% of a spell per round, so in two rounds, if x was perhaps 50%, the Magus has expected value 1.1 successful hits and not quite 2 successful spells. In two rounds of alternating full attack with spells, the EK can expect to have .75 successful hits and 1 successful spell. So even if the Magus's spells are worse, the Magus gets a strong edge here.
At level 14, the Magus will have a true double of the EK in these counts, so unless the EK's higher-level prebuffs make her attacks twice as effective as the Magus, and the in-combat spells are also as useful as two of the Magus's spells, the Magus has a strong edge.
The best counterargument is, as I mentioned above, that the EK can just never attack normally and always use spells. Then even at high levels, she's trading spell for spell with the Magus, but with her superior spells, and maybe they are superior enough that the fact that the Magus gets a full attack additionally per round is not enough to keep up. But at that point, why not just play a straight out Wizard, in my mind. For the role it hopes to fill (the go-to girl for a variety of arcane spells as well as martial prowess who frequently both kicks ass in melee and casts spells), Magus does so admirably compared to EK at pretty much all levels, even the ones where EK has the edge.
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It really isn't fair to compare spell lists until we actually have the full one for the magus available for viewing.
Umm why NOT?!? To say what you have so far is not good enough is a fine feedback. By the time they get around to giving the UM spells added in, it maybe too late to get some of the core spells that should be on the list.
You left out one enormous thing at 1st level: Elle has Scribe Scroll. This allows her, for a nominal fee, to have a full deck of backup and utility magic without impacting her spells per day. I wonder how frequently this wizard perk is overlooked?
Didn't mean to overlook your comment here tejon--this is indeed an oversight in my summary (though I was thinking I included it, which is one of the reasons I gave Elle the level 1 edge despite her fragility). Ultimately, however, Maggie can buy scrolls for twice the price (still a bargain for backup spells) or else take the feat if the campaign doesn't allow the former (though this still makes Elle up by another feat).
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*Good points*
I do agree with you that spell combat is very very good. So is the gold saving bonded weapon. But those two rather over powered aspects being balanced by a whole lot of bad isn't a good thing. Spell combat is in essence 3.0 haste and I am am quite troubled by what this abilty can spawn with the rest of UM and beyond. The gold saving aspect is also a bad idea. I have a feeling that the NPCs githyanki I'm making that gets to spend all their NPC gold on items other then their weapon is gonna cause some rather horrific problems for the players this weekend. But yes basically two class ability should not be a make up for a bunch of bad.
Combat wise, contingecy can't be overlooked if you wanna get that extra spell out. Course it's kind of a one shot. But giant form 2 is a pretty big boost in combat prowess. That combined with shield slam and the various pit spells is pretty effective...and fun. Who cares about hp damage when I make this pit and then get big and shove you all in it ;) .
*Good points*I do agree with you that spell combat is very very good. So is the gold saving bonded weapon. But those two rather over powered aspects being balanced by a whole lot of bad isn't a good thing. Spell combat is in essence 3.0 haste and I am am quite troubled by what this abilty can spawn with the rest of UM and beyond. The gold saving aspect is also a bad idea. I have a feeling that the NPCs githyanki I'm making that gets to spend all their NPC gold on items other then their weapon is gonna cause some rather horrific problems for the players this weekend. But yes basically two class ability should not be a make up for a bunch of bad.
Combat wise, contingecy can't be overlooked if you wanna get that extra spell out. Course it's kind of a one shot. But giant form 2 is a pretty big boost in combat prowess. That combined with shield slam and the various pit spells is pretty effective...and fun. Who cares about hp damage when I make this pit and then get big and shove you all in it ;) .
And the weapon thing is even better than that!--go ahead and spend some money on the weapon and you can throw on extra abilities on top of that, saving even more money over what it would have cost to get the end result weapon (at level 12, you can use this on a nonmagical sword to get a +3 equivalent sword, saving 18k gold or use it on a sword that is already +3 equivalent to get a +6 equivalent, saving 54k).
Contingency is great, and combos like the one you mention with Giant Form and pits are quite fun and the reason I love full casters so much.
When I made the comparisons above, I had to weigh in my mind basically the powerful aspects of both and come to a decision. I think Spell Combat is actually less overpowered than it seems with the initial knee jerk reaction (at least according to my math), so I'd suggest giving it a chance and playtesting it to see if I'm right (and based on your post about the githyanki, it seems you're already well on your way to doing just that). Jason and friends/team did a good job at limiting the Magus in other ways so that it wouldn't be overwhelming (Bard casting without major early-access spells, free hand fighter only). Now, if some of the suggestions in this forum to buff up the Magus are implemented (full BAB, for instance, or letting them use bows or TWF with an Arcana), we should be afraid. Very afraid. ^_~
Give the eldrich knight a metamagic rod of lesser quicken , now what the difference between the two ?
they can both full melee attack with 1 handed weapon and fire off a spell in the same round.
Yes EK is limited by number of rod uses per day , but can buy multiple rods and dosen't need to make concentrations checks. but basically would run the same
Give the eldrich knight a metamagic rod of lesser quicken , now what the difference between the two ?
they can both full melee attack with 1 handed weapon and fire off a spell in the same round.
Yes EK is limited by number of rod uses per day , but can buy multiple rods and dosen't need to make concentrations checks. but basically would run the same
This simultaneously horrifies and awes me, but here's my best response there--it isn't fair to give the EK extra gear (particularly since the Magus has a major money-saving ability in the Arcane Weapon and the EK doesn't, but even so, let's put them on equal footing), so let's give the Magus the same rod. Now Maggie is full attacking and casting TWO spells per round (remember, Spell Combat does not use up a Swift action!).
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This simultaneously horrifies and awes me, but here's my best response there--it isn't fair to give the EK extra gear (particularly since the Magus has a major money-saving ability in the Arcane Weapon and the EK doesn't, but even so, let's put them on equal footing), so let's give the Magus the same rod. Now Maggie is full attacking and casting TWO spells per round (remember, Spell Combat does not use up a Swift action!).Give the eldrich knight a metamagic rod of lesser quicken , now what the difference between the two ?
they can both full melee attack with 1 handed weapon and fire off a spell in the same round.
Yes EK is limited by number of rod uses per day , but can buy multiple rods and dosen't need to make concentrations checks. but basically would run the same
No the magus can't. Metamagic rod would not leave him his hand free for spell combat.
No the magus can't. Metamagic rod would not leave him his hand free for spell combat.
Spiked Gauntlet, Spiked Armor, Light Spiked Shield, I think there are other options. Not fun, very silly, but they are there.
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*Good points*I do agree with you that spell combat is very very good. So is the gold saving bonded weapon. But those two rather over powered aspects being balanced by a whole lot of bad isn't a good thing. Spell combat is in essence 3.0 haste and I am am quite troubled by what this abilty can spawn with the rest of UM and beyond. The gold saving aspect is also a bad idea. I have a feeling that the NPCs githyanki I'm making that gets to spend all their NPC gold on items other then their weapon is gonna cause some rather horrific problems for the players this weekend. But yes basically two class ability should not be a make up for a bunch of bad.
Combat wise, contingecy can't be overlooked if you wanna get that extra spell out. Course it's kind of a one shot. But giant form 2 is a pretty big boost in combat prowess. That combined with shield slam and the various pit spells is pretty effective...and fun. Who cares about hp damage when I make this pit and then get big and shove you all in it ;) .
And the weapon thing is even better than that!--go ahead and spend some money on the weapon and you can throw on extra abilities on top of that, saving even more money over what it would have cost to get the end result weapon (at level 12, you can use this on a nonmagical sword to get a +3 equivalent sword, saving 18k gold or use it on a sword that is already +3 equivalent to get a +6 equivalent, saving 54k).
When I made the comparisons above, I had to weigh in my mind basically the powerful aspects of both and come to a decision. I think Spell Combat is actually less overpowered than it seems with the initial knee jerk reaction (at least according to my math), so I'd suggest giving it a chance and playtesting it to see if I'm right (and based on your post about the githyanki, it seems you're...
Yeah my level 6 mooks have +1 elemental swords. My level 8 elite guards have +1 elemental keen scimitars. My level 12 lich guard boss is using a +1 icy burst keen scimitar...all from +1 swords :P .
I would prefer that the spell combat be toned down and then be usuable for more combat forms...like THF, TWF or sword and shield.
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No the magus can't. Metamagic rod would not leave him his hand free for spell combat.Spiked Gauntlet, Spiked Armor, Light Spiked Shield, I think there are other options. Not fun, very silly, but they are there.
1) not a one handed or light weapon
2) not a one handed or light weapon
3) that one works...however since all shield bash attacks are off hand attacks, you would only do 1/2 str...so it would kinda suck.
No the magus can't. Metamagic rod would not leave him his hand free for spell combat.This simultaneously horrifies and awes me, but here's my best response there--it isn't fair to give the EK extra gear (particularly since the Magus has a major money-saving ability in the Arcane Weapon and the EK doesn't, but even so, let's put them on equal footing), so let's give the Magus the same rod. Now Maggie is full attacking and casting TWO spells per round (remember, Spell Combat does not use up a Swift action!).Give the eldrich knight a metamagic rod of lesser quicken , now what the difference between the two ?
they can both full melee attack with 1 handed weapon and fire off a spell in the same round.
Yes EK is limited by number of rod uses per day , but can buy multiple rods and dosen't need to make concentrations checks. but basically would run the same
Hmm, on further perusal, there's nowhere that says that Rods and the like can be used as part of the somatic component. I had thought it so, but it looks like a Cleric can't use a Metamagic Rod and a Heavy Shield, for instance. You could still get away with it if you used a Spiked Gauntlet or Shield Bash with a Light Shield or something, but let's assume not.
The Magus still gets Sudden Quicken by the time that buying multiple rods as Phasics suggested would be affordable, and we're still talking 35k spent by the Eldritch Knight to 3x per day Quicken only her 1-3 level spells whereas the Magus gets all her spells for no money. Honestly, by the time that even a single Lesser Quicken rod is even a consideration, the defensive casting will rarely ever fail. Heck, let's say that we decided to make a Rod of Infinite Lesser Quicken that can't be used to double-cast for a single caster and price it at 5x the cost of a Lesser Quicken Rod. That would cost 155,000 GP, and it still doesn't cover spell levels up to 6 like the Magus ability, so we'll make it a regular Rod of Quicken and thus cost 377,500. Any class feature worth that much money is a huge bonus in my book. Or I guess what I'm saying is, just because it can simulated with a sufficiently large amount of GP does not make it an amazing ability.
1) not a one handed or light weapon
Spike Gauntlet is a simple light melee weapon.
2) not a one handed or light weapon
Spiked Armor is martial light melee weapon.
3) that one works...however since all shield bash attacks are off hand attacks, you would only do 1/2 str...so it would kinda suck.
Point take, but meh who needs a high strength bonus for damage. Actually it may not work after all depending on how you take the ruling on the "handedness" of the shield as the spell technically occupies the off-hand attack.
Option 4. half-orc with a bite attack? Although I could see a very stiff GM arguing that his mouth is full so no verbal components.
Again as I said, mostly silly and impractical but doable.
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Give the eldrich knight a metamagic rod of lesser quicken , now what the difference between the two ?
they can both full melee attack with 1 handed weapon and fire off a spell in the same round.
Yes EK is limited by number of rod uses per day , but can buy multiple rods and dosen't need to make concentrations checks. but basically would run the same
Well no. Magus can cast from any spell in her list all day long levels 1-6. She can also use quicken AND spell combat and do a full round attack which is a pretty big deal even if it's only once per day. So a high level Magus can use it on even fairly trivial spells like shield or enlarge person while the EK is saving his limited uses for critical spells.
I suspect a higher level Magus will use this ability a lot.
The EK has to spend a ton of gold to boost even their low level spells just three times per day while the Magus can use that money on other things (wishes or tomes to increase INT maybe?).
Your comparison doesn't consider Armor Class.
I think the Magus can achieve a higher AC than the Eldritch Knight, and because of his Arcane Weapon the Magus has more gold than the EK, which he can spend on magical heavy armor.
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Well no. Magus can cast from any spell in her list all day long levels 1-6. She can also use quicken AND spell combat and do a full round attack which is a pretty big deal even if it's only once per day. So a high level Magus can use it on even fairly trivial spells like shield or enlarge person while the EK is saving his limited uses for critical spells.I suspect a higher level Magus will use this ability a lot.
The EK has to spend a ton of gold to boost even their low level spells just three times per day while the Magus can use that money on other things (wishes or tomes to increase INT maybe?).
Well once per day, the EK can use contingency to get an extra spell off as well. So that part is a wash. The meta rod for the EK requires that he use a spell with no somatic or a still spell as well...which does boost the advantage to the magus. But the EK can TWF with a light shield and full attack with the shield attack and still get the quicken spell...so that's something too.
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1) not a one handed or light weaponSpike Gauntlet is a simple light melee weapon.
2) not a one handed or light weaponSpiked Armor is martial light melee weapon.
3) that one works...however since all shield bash attacks are off hand attacks, you would only do 1/2 str...so it would kinda suck.Point take, but meh who needs a high strength bonus for damage. Actually it may not work after all depending on how you take the ruling on the "handedness" of the shield as the spell technically occupies the off-hand attack.
Option 4. half-orc with a bite attack? Although I could see a very stiff GM arguing that his mouth is full so no verbal components.
Again as I said, mostly silly and impractical but doable.
Spiked gauntlet is not listed under light or one handed weapon in the weapon list. Shields and spiked shields are. The gauntlet is simple weapons but it is an unarmed attack and as such neither a light weapon or a one handed weapon. Spike gauntlet modifies the gauntlet. Spike armor isn't listed at all as it only does damage in a grapple. The bite attack is once neither a one hande or light weapon. Yes I am a rules monkey.
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Your comparison doesn't consider Armor Class.
I think the Magus can achieve a higher AC than the Eldritch Knight, and because of his Arcane Weapon the Magus has more gold than the EK, which he can spend on magical heavy armor.
True, the magus will have better AC...but the EK with vampiric touch and flase life will have more hit points ;) .
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Well once per day, the EK can use contingency to get an extra spell off as well. So that part is a wash. The meta rod for the EK requires that he use a spell with no somatic or a still spell as well...which does boost the advantage to the magus. But the EK can TWF with a light shield and full attack with the shield attack and still get the quicken spell...so that's something too.
Eh... you are tossing in a bunch of unrelated things in here.
The Magus can likewise TWF with a shield and get a quickened spell off, he's just not doing it because he has the flexibility to toss a spell off every round without having to juggle rods and still spell.
Any way you slice it being able to consistently toss high level spells while full attacking is a pretty nice ability.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Gauntlet: This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets. Your opponent cannot use a disarm action to disarm you of gauntlets.
Emphasis mine. Gauntlets are light weapons, they are even listed on the table in the equipment as such. Spiked Gauntlets are also listed as simple light weapons.
Armor Spikes: You can have spikes added to your armor, which allow you to deal extra piercing damage (see “spiked armor” on Table: Weapons) on a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If you are not proficient with them, you take a –4 penalty on grapple checks when you try to use them. You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can't also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa.) An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
Emphasis mine. Armor spikes are light martial weapons that can be used as normal or off-hand attacks. Spiked Armor is also listed on the table under light martial weapons, right between "Shield, Light" and "Spiked Shield, Light".
Yes, I too am a "rules monkey" as you call it.
Ninjaed by Mauril while I was getting page numbers and such.
Table 6-4, page 142, row 8 under Light Melee Weapons under Martial Weapons, "Spiked armor" & Page 150
Table 6-4, page 142, row 3 under Light Melee Weapons under Simple Weapons, "Gauntlet, spiked" & Page 146
Page 182, Unarmed Strike Damage, last line.
I've made it a hobby ever since 3.0 D&D (actually since 2e D&D) to create characters with odd-off weapons and backups. That includes everything from fists to any bit or piece of strap-on gear. Give me a horned a helm you can attack with and eventually I'll work it onto a character. Scratch that, give me a strap-on that you can attack with and does damage and I'll work that onto a character, somehow, in some gods awful way :p. I've also be rule lawyering it up for quite some time as well. I'll admit to being wrong on occasion or forgetting specific wording, but not with spiked things.
I'll conceded the bite natural attack technically isn't a light or one-handed weapon and can't be used... for now. I seem to remember them being comparable to those categories... but that may just be 3.5 D&D haunting me.
*Edit*
Didn't drop it for long...
Page 182, bottom of the page second column, last line.
Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks.
Cutting close to the line, still not technically light weapons for this use, and even if ruled as so by generous GM still falls under the "is an off-hand weapon" trap that spell is already filling. Which again leads to the question if you can use an off-hand weapon in-place of your main hand.
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Well once per day, the EK can use contingency to get an extra spell off as well. So that part is a wash. The meta rod for the EK requires that he use a spell with no somatic or a still spell as well...which does boost the advantage to the magus. But the EK can TWF with a light shield and full attack with the shield attack and still get the quicken spell...so that's something too.Eh... you are tossing in a bunch of unrelated things in here.
The Magus can likewise TWF with a shield and get a quickened spell off, he's just not doing it because he has the flexibility to toss a spell off every round without having to juggle rods and still spell.
Any way you slice it being able to consistently toss high level spells while full attacking is a pretty nice ability.
Umm...so your counter is that the magus can ignore it's powerful class ability, be limited to 6th level spells vs the 9th of the EK and do the same thing?!? That seems like a pretty big lose to me. TWF + still quicken spell vs spell combat is the comparison. If you wanan compare the magus TWF vs the EK, the magus will lose hands down.
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Ninjaed by Mauril while I was getting page numbers and such.
Table 6-4, page 142, row 8 under Light Melee Weapons under Martial Weapons, "Spiked armor" & Page 150
Table 6-4, page 142, row 3 under Light Melee Weapons under Simple Weapons, "Gauntlet, spiked" & Page 146
Page 182, Unarmed Strike Damage, last line.
I've made it a hobby ever since 3.0 D&D (actually since 2e D&D) to create characters with odd-off weapons and backups. That includes everything from fists to any bit or piece of strap-on gear. Give me a horned a helm you can attack with and eventually I'll work it onto a character. Scratch that, give me a strap-on that you can attack with and does damage and I'll work that onto a character, somehow, in some gods awful way :p. I've also be rule lawyering it up for quite some time as well. I'll admit to being wrong on occasion or forgetting specific wording, but not with spiked things.
I'll conceded the bite natural attack technically isn't a light or one-handed weapon and can't be used... for now. I seem to remember them being comparable to those categories... but that may just be 3.5 D&D haunting me.
*Edit*
Didn't drop it for long...Page 182, bottom of the page second column, last line.
Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks.Cutting close to the line, still not technically light weapons for this use, and even if ruled as so by generous GM still falls under the "is an off-hand weapon" trap that spell is already filling. Which again leads to the question if you can use an off-hand weapon in-place of your main hand.
God damn it...how the hell did I miss those on the list. I guess you could spike gauntlet or spike armor. But then again the EK can TWF with the spiked gauntlet or armor and then he wouldn't need the stilled spell. So it becomes one weapon full attack + 2 magus spells vs TWF full attack + 1 wizard/sorc spell. Assuming your limiting yourself to these two options.
I'm going to make a Magus 10, EK 10 character. He'll run around with a Scimitar and Improved critical, smacking things with the iteratives of a +17 BAB, and combining Improved Spell Combat and Spell Critical.
Muahahaa!
Actually, I wonder if such a build would be viable. Better access to fighter feats (albeit fairly late in the game, since you need to be 10th level magus), too.
You lose out on the weapon bonuses, and some nicer magus arcana options, though (and 7th-9th level spells on the EK build side). Is spell critical worth it if you are still restricted in combat options?
I think you end up looking like a Duskblade with fewer spells, less HP and BAB. But gain a few extra tricks like fighting in medium armor with casting and Fighter combat options. I will point out that you can take Critical Strike which let's you do the same with just touch attacks and you can get it at 12th level, instead of 20th with that build.
Spell Critical is more fun the higher the level of spell used anyways.
Actually I think you!d end up with an anti-mage or Mage hunter. Focus on counter spelling and fighter anti-Mage feats. As the party's fighter like replacement you keep utility by shutting down enemy spell casters when possible.
I'm interested in how this class plays compared to the Arcane Duelist bard variant from the APG. There's a substantial similarity between them (aside from the bard and magus spell lists).
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Umm...so your counter is that the magus can ignore it's powerful class ability, be limited to 6th level spells vs the 9th of the EK and do the same thing?!? That seems like a pretty big lose to me. TWF + still quicken spell vs spell combat is the comparison. If you wanan compare the magus TWF vs the EK, the magus will lose hands down.
No, my point is that he is CAPABLE of doing what the EK can do with TWF and a shield but won't because what he can do is vastly better.